Buddy Bakers Daytona

[therealmoparman]

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[Redbird]

I think a reasonable assumption would be that the Flower Sticker with the Bee inside it is probably a red Herring. I have seen similar stickers from the period before. Maybe if someone has the time to search Steve Juliano's web site there will be a similar sticker in one of his display cases like that. I don't think it is a stretch that one of the floor workers at the show plastered it on the car just because he could. At shows in that time they often had little give aways, Joe Higgins stickers, Joe Higgins Badges and the like. I have a rectangular "wink" Road Runner sticker that had stickum on the back so it would attach onto a shirt or sweater, the "wink" sticker is just plastic-no metal frame around it or pin on the back. My belief is that my "wink" sticker was on a sheet of stickers like it. A floor worker probably folded the sheet to crack the plastic on a seam, then gave them to kids to put on their shirt for the show. Cheap give aways for shows; decals, literature, dealer pins; advertising.

Why would Ray Nichols build a copy of an Owens/Baker car? Logic would say Ray Nichols would build a copy of Charlie Glotzbach's car or another car representing his shop. I couldn't see Cotton Owens building a copy of a Petty car to put in a show because Chrysler wanted a Petty car in a show.

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

Hey you guys are the ones all hung up on decals and paint and 4 vs 5 rivets and such esoterica.

Your evidence is unmistakable - but mine is a "red herring?"

It's all in the sheet metal.   Those decals can be changed in five minutes.   Decals are pretty low on the "prove it" list.

[therealmoparman]

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[Ghoste]

When did it run over 200 at Talladega?

[Aero426]

Please describe how you can tell in the sheetmetal? I am VERY curious.

The only constant seems to be that the completed Daytona in the shop photo matches the Chicago car, the Detroit car and the Museum car.   They are the ONLY ones with ALL of the above:

stock type front clip
stock front spoiler
full right side exhaust
closed headlights
full glass.
air deflectors with two screws  

NONE of the race cars have ALL these traits.   You would have to be blind to not to make the connection on these, and not question the accuracy of a November 1970 delivery date to Cobo Hall.  

[therealmoparman]

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[C5HM]

Just to clarify - because I know I need to - by HIS car I meant one that looked like BAKER's car. Baker was #1 Chrysler driver, and they would want to display his car, not Goldsmith's or Glotzbach. At least not in 69-70.

Ray Nichels and Charlie would probably disagree with you on that.

Mario (where-ever he is) and Bobby might have a differing opinion, too.

[therealmoparman]

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[Ghoste]

Running 200 mph at Chelsea is very different from running 200 mph at Talladega.  Again, even though Buddy says in his book he did it lots of times, there appears to be absolutely no documentation at all to back that up.  He did it during a record run in a different car at Talladega, that is a fact.  During a race however there is no hard evidence of any NASCAR driver doing this during a NASCAR event on a NASCAR ttrack until the early 1980's.  I pointed this out before and you said it happened during drafting.  Did they turn off the timers on any car that was in a draft?  200 mph was a pretty significant achievment so it seems a little strange that NASCAR wouldn't have promoted this or at least admitted it actually happened.

[C5HM]

I'm still curious as to why they would put a street wing on it... at the end of the season.  

I might be wrong, but I think what they said was it had the street braces, the part that is inside the trunk and bolts to the bottom of the wing and the trunk floor. The pictures from Canepa's site show the street style braces.

The Canepa car's wing also lacked the safety cabling mandated after Buddy Arrington's crash which sent a horizontal wing section helicoptering off the racetrack area.

The wing cable would typically be visible externally at the top of the wing upright.   Of course if the car was completed prior to Daytona in Feb of 1970, it wouldn't have a cable whether it raced or not.   The car also has a street style trunk lock pillar which is just extra baggage on a race car.    No driveshaft loops?   No passing tech either.   Why would anyone take the time to remove driveshaft loops on a car destined for show?

Doug, that was probably done when the windows were being taken in and out on those multiple occassions between race and show dates. You know, because it looked better. Ditto for the street spoiler and rear wing. And same thing with the four rivet vs. two rivet "A"pillar covers and the different door handle covers. I often find myself out in the garage with my race cars doing the same thing. Windows one day, none the next. Idle hands are the Devils workshop. I am surprised that you haven't succumed to the same urge with yout Stott car yet?

[therealmoparman]

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[Ghoste]

I guess it is everyone but me.  Oddly enough they can post other speeds during the race all they want but when someone broke a barrier it was apparently some sort of agreed upon secret to just not say a word and only publish the average lap speeds or winning lap speeds and ones like that. 

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

I guess it is everyone but me.  Oddly enough they can post other speeds during the race all they want but when someone broke a barrier it was apparently some sort of agreed upon secret to just not say a word and only publish the average lap speeds or winning lap speeds and ones like that. 

The race report did publish that Baker went 198 and Cale shortly after ran 199 and change.    But nobody said anything about 200. 

[C5HM]

RE: 200 MPH:

From the book "Chrysler, Plymouth & Dodge Stock Cars" by Dr John Craft (the one with the #6 car on the cover).. pg 62 talks about the first Daytona wing cars... "Side by side top speed tests were conducted with a race spec Charger 500 at Chelsea in July of 1969. Those results were mixed.... While the new Daytonaa proved to be faster than the old 500, it was only just so. But within a week of taking it to the track, Dodge drivers and engineers had pumped up the top speed to an impressive 205 miles per hour average around the five-mile Chrysler banked track. By the time Chelsea testing was completed, Glotzbach had pushed the envelope out to an incredible 243 miles per hour. Soon all involved with the project were looking forward to September and Talledega with undisguised glee."

Doesn't specify the #6 specifically - but jives with Baker's statement in his own book "Tales from Pit Road" - "Dodge picked me to run the first official 200 mph lap at Talladega. We had all run 200 mph before, but not officially."

I know the guy who wrote that book. He wasn't referring to the Baker car

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

QUOTE:
The wing cable would typically be visible externally at the top of the wing upright.   Of course if the car was completed prior to Daytona in Feb of 1970, it wouldn't have a cable whether it raced or not.  

ANSWER:
The "S-500" car - the one from the museum, did not race at Daytona in Feb 1970. A new car was built for that race. The "S-500" car was still in pieces in COG shop.

Oh that's right.   They installed the wing cable for Darlington, and then removed it and put a whole new street wing on after Charlotte.  Then they filled the bolt holes in the floor where the old braces were.    I forgot.    

QUOTE:
The car also has a street style trunk lock pillar which is just extra baggage on a race car.    No driveshaft loops?   No passing tech either.   Why would anyone take the time to remove driveshaft loops on a car destined for show?

ANSWER:
You are talking about the car as it finally appears now (from museum). Let me say again for the 20th time today: The car was retired from racing at end of 1970 season. COG made it into a pure show car. Never to race again. No techs to pass ever again! Didn't we go over this on like page 2?

Oh my gosh, I forgot again.  When they rebuilt the car after Charlotte for the auto shows, they went to the trouble to weld in that trunk lock pillar, and take out those driveshaft loops.  Oh, and then they had to move the dry sump tank from the left fender to inside the car.   I'm sorry, I just have my head up my butt sometimes   I hope I've got it right now.  

[chargerboy69]

Didn't we go over this on like page 2?


Please tell me more about your race cars and experience, as it were in 1969 and 70. Tell me more about how they ran with windows or not.

Look at this photo attached.

That can't be can it? Why, it's a 1969 Charger 500 race car.... and it's got glass in it!?!?!?!

I have found people loosing a discussion tend to turn into a not so pleasant person ( I cleaned it up).

I have followed these guys on this board for years.  And I will tell you these guys know more about these cars than you will ever know.  Just a word of advise, you might want to sit back listen to these guys.  There is a wealth of knowledge to be learned here if you actually pay attention.  

The problem is you do not like hearing what they are giving you. . . the facts.

[hemigeno]

Boy I have never met a bunch of fellows who know everything there is to know about who wrote what book, or said this or that, what they REALLY meant,

The irony of that statement is unbelievable... if you only knew...

[therealmoparman]

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[Redbird]

Juliano Collection>automobelia>gallery page-small images>page 5>middle line far right picture> bottom right of case>looks similar to a bee in a flower decal.

A decal comes off pretty easily with a heat gun.

As I said before-sticker probably a car show give away.