So what's the best alternator to use on my 68?

[bull]

Pretty standard setup with the typical electronic ignition upgrade. I've also got the repro wiring harness from Y1 with the electronic ignition upgrades, so should I just ask the guy at Napa for a 1970 Charger alternator?

[Nacho-RT74]

depending how much you want to spend and how much "stock" look and correct aged you want... you can go with 78 amps stock alt in $50 rate ( mostly of cases is SIMPLY ENOUGH ), or 100 amps aftermarket units but stock look on $140 rate.

also bigger ones, Denso, etc...

your choose.

anyone of them will demand some wirings upgrades too. Also depending on how much you want to keep stock look and equipment

[Back N Black]

I running one from NAPA with no issues. 

[bull]

depending how much you want to spend and how much "stock" look and correct aged you want... you can go with 78 amps stock alt in $50 rate ( mostly of cases is SIMPLY ENOUGH ), or 100 amps aftermarket units but stock look on $140 rate.

also bigger ones, Denso, etc...

your choose.

anyone of them will demand some wirings upgrades too. Also depending on how much you want to keep stock look and equipment

So is it good to run that extra 22 amps? How critical is it?

[Nacho-RT74]

yes is good ENOUGH if you ask me. they are not right aged or dated fro a 68 but allmost unnapreciable difference

and is critical enough to upgrade wires ( you know what thread to search now LOL )

[b5blue]

Look into the low amps at idle problem first Bull, if your not in a hurry wait as Nacho found a good alt shop online and when I contacted them they said they are working on a unit that will have extra windings in it (but look stock) 68's have round back, one field, alts with a point type regulator.70 up has square back, 2 field alt, with solid state regulator, so looks wise it's just the shape of the back of the alt and a flat or square regulator.   

[bull]

No hurry here other than I like to move forward consistantly. I'd like to have everything I can get bolted to the engine before I install it, hopefully early this summer.

[maxwellwedge]

Look into the low amps at idle problem first Bull, if your not in a hurry wait as Nacho found a good alt shop online and when I contacted them they said they are working on a unit that will have extra windings in it (but look stock) 68's have round back, one field, alts with a point type regulator.70 up has square back, 2 field alt, with solid state regulator, so looks wise it's just the shape of the back of the alt and a flat or square regulator.   

The square back started after 71 some time but it will work.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I ask for a 78 Volare alternator...     higher amp output than the 46 or so stock one...    it is 72 instead   

[Nacho-RT74]

normally they are 78 amps units.

I have had posted some details about them on moparts... will float the links here later

[Rolling_Thunder]

normally they are 78 amps units.

I have had posted some details about them on moparts... will float the links here later

That's right - sorry about the mix up     

[b5blue]

Keep in mind I am talking about the low output AT IDLE not total amp output problem. You can add total output amps very easily but still be sitting at a light at night with dim lights and a slow blower or wipers (or both) till you raise RPM's. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

headlight relays help a bunch   

[ChgrSteve67]

I go into NAPA and tell them I have a 72 Challanger with a 440
After the ooohs and aaahs they give me a Square back, two field 78 amp altanator.

If you are running an alt amp gauge check to see if it will handle the additional amps.

I by passed mine and went to a voltage gauge.

Later I also installed relays for power the headlights directly from the battery.

[bull]

There used to be a thread about that headlight relay upgrade on the old site. Did it make its way over here?

[Hemidog]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,168.0.html

Great upgrade!

[Nacho-RT74]

just a note... everything feeded from alt side, not batt side... thats the RIGHT source

[bull]

Ok, so maybe this is obvious but why would I need a bigger alt if the headlight relay thing will deal with most of the stock low-amp idle issues? What more is there to it?

BTW, I had my stock alt bench tested today and it tested good, but it's ugly. If I decide to keep it is there a way to crack it open and clean up the blades inside?

[ChgrSteve67]

Its a matter of supply and demand.

If you car is demanding more power than your alt is producing you will eventually drain your battery.

I have two 20 amp electric fans so it would not take long to drain my battery without larger alt.

[b5blue]

The capacity of output is speed dependent. Below a certain RPM the ALT. is not fully excited, just think of it as a pump filling a bucket with holes in it. The more stuff running, the more holes. As these systems were designed 40 years ago they were just good enough to keep up. Add parasitic loss to all the hundreds of tiny connections corroding (more holes) and the fact that the Amp gauge takes 100% of the load to "read" it (making it the weak point in the system) then add anything that draws even 1 amp more to a charging system that had all it could do to keep up when new at idle and that little pump just don't do it anymore when spinning slower, under a bigger demand than just running the motor. Modern cars use much more amps all the time for all there stuff and nobody runs all of it in and out of a gauge anymore. Buy using relays you can divert amps from going through your Amp gauge and shorten the amount of wire the current must travel to run something (the amp gauge then just reads the draw of the relay coil, not the load the relay "switches on and off") That helps the "weak point" problem greatly letting us keep our stock dashes. However whatever you do you will still have less than total rated output from the ALT. at idle as the relays feed power to things directly from the ALT. still. None of this is a problem if you: A- raise your idle setting higher or B- Never use your car in the rain, at night. run defrost-heater-A/C, add a huge stereo amplifier or other large draw items or C- replace every switch, wire, bulb, connector, coupler, fuse, motor, and relay with new and keep your car totally 100% stock. None of these apply to me, my car is 24/7/365 days a year, anywhere, anytime, rain or shine, day or night. So "for me" this is the last big problem and the only one not corrected yet, Mancini Racing assured me that there "Denso" Alt. kit gives me plenty of "idle output" for 249.00 plus shipping. (It will also give me 120 Amps total output.  ) (Meaning I MUST install relays to keep 120 Amps OUT of my stock dash!) and the other company is developing a stock 78 Amp Alt. with additional windings that will add output at idle to solve the whole issue and appear very "stock looking". So your question is a good one, with no simple answer, it depends on the cars use. Mileage is important to me as is dependability, I did allot of research on compression ratio and cam choice vs power as to not require just premium gas to save money in the long haul. My approach may be rather unique but I had to work with what I already had and could afford. (and still be the sole support/custodial parent of 3 super kids!) Good luck Bull I didn't want to see you tie up a bunch of time and money only to end up with a redo later AFTER doing much more work.       

[bull]

Sounds like you could almost accomplish the desired effect by running a smaller pulley on the stock alt. Smaller pulley, shorter belt, alt spins faster...

[ChgrSteve67]

There are those that have done that too.

If you can find a pully and belt.

[bull]

There are those that have done that too.

If you can find a pully and belt.

Yea, not an easy thing to do.

[b5blue]

I asked the company doing the modified alt. about that, apparently it's not as good of a solution, I think its prone to slipping. (But we think alike)   

[Rallye]

Has anyone ever tried the alternators from Bouchllon?  It says they are 75 amps with at least 50 amps at idle.  Here's a link...  http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/BPEalternators.asp

[bull]

Has anyone ever tried the alternators from Bouchllon?  It says they are 75 amps with at least 50 amps at idle.  Here's a link...  http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/BPEalternators.asp

Good question. Seems like a decent price on those too.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, they are available at shops on $50 LOL

[bull]

ok, they are available at shops on $50 LOL

With 50 amps at idle?

[Nacho-RT74]

46 I think remmeber to read on a test made by BBB

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=5894237&Searchpage=1&Main=5894237&Words=beck%2Farnley+NachoRT74&topic=&Search=true#Post5894237

[b5blue]

50 amp at idle would certainly be better than what I get now but with shipping we are up to 200.00 or so, now I wonder what Mancini's Denso puts out.  Anyone got amp draw numbers for nite lighting I know the A/C (when installed later) will use 20 amps, wiper motor probably 15 or 20?   

[Dodgecharger74]

wattage of lamp divided by voltage gives amperage    55 w divided by 12 = 4.59 amps  If you have 14 v at lamp it will draw 3.93 amps most alternators output is at 14 volt if you spin it at proper speed

[b5blue]

And add dash, brake, sidemarker, tail and front running lights......blinkers........ .....I see it in my gauge and dimming lights. (and slower wipers and blower motor!) 

[Nacho-RT74]

Anyone got amp draw numbers for nite lighting I know the A/C (when installed later) will use 20 amps, wiper motor probably 15 or 20?   

I think you are overrating those...

[bull]

After reading all of this I think I'm more confused than when I started.

[b5blue]

I'm sure you are! None of this is a huge issue unless (Like me) you plan/need to use the car day and night rain or shine and still care how "stock it looks" (I no longer give a rats a-- about looks, I want AMPS!) The company "Quick Start" is the one trying to develop the real fix, if done (still waiting) it would have extra windings for more idle amps and all HD guts for more total amps and reliability yet look very stock and bolt right in. I'll be calling them this week as I really to do something, rainy season is bearing down quickly on me and I'm not going through this again. (last year was a bitch!) On a really tight budget I'm saving for whatever it takes to beat this so $$ is my hang up or I'd have the 120 amp Denso from Mancini in there (250.00) and control relays up the wazoo to handle the extra power. My relay plug in bases came in today to go with my 40 amp relays so I'm about ready to start modifying my harnesses. I'll keep you posted on how I solve this last engineering problem for my car. Largely the mods Nacho posted are spot on, I had planned very similar changes using my Air Force training and boat repair/modification experience combined. (along with repairing Jags and other imports crappy wiring systems)   

[bull]

I'm tempted ot just go with stock until this gets ironed out but then again it's not like I'm going to be on the road this summer. Alts are pretty easy to install so I'll just leave that spot empty for a while.

[b5blue]

 

[bull]

Any news from Quick Start on that new alt they were supposed to be producing?

[b5blue]

None, I had/have a standing order in for one and not a single word from them. They were clear that custom windings needed and through testing were all in the RD phase. The Mancini 120amp Denso "kit" has performed very well for me in the 5 months I've used it so far, it has met all demands like running High beams, blower on high, wipers on high all at idle without missing a beat, no dimming of lights or slowing of motors. (As a bonus the ignition is enjoying rock steady volts/amps also) So far this year though costly the Charger has proven 2 upgrades well worth the money, the Denso and Don's A-688 ignition system with the phased and curved (to my engine's build spec.) distributor. The year before it was Ron's Fire Core plug wires and his recommended NGK XR-5 spark plugs, all proven "problem solver" components. (I still can't get over the improvement a properly set up vacuum advance has made in the 440's performance and mileage!)     

[bull]

I have a couple problems with the Denso deal, assuming I understand the mod you did. I'll run it by you to be sure. Do you have to notch the rail for clearance and do you have to buy Mancini's bracket set? If so I don't want any part of either.

[b5blue]

If you found my thread yes I did notch, was it needed...no. After farting around with belts back and forth to NAPA I found the belt I had from my stock set-up was spot on and tightened up, it moves away from the frame nicely. The "kit" includes everything Brackets, Bolts, Spacers and is very high quality, nice stuff. I had to fabricate a small harness to adapt to the length of factory wires, since I'll be modifying by adding control relays later and they will be right there anyway. I've run the new set-up with stock wiring, nothing changed. My dash has no radio or radio plate and I am able to reach into my dash and hold the wires and AMP gauge studs. The only time anything got hot was when I let the car sit for several weeks, I kinda flooded the engine flopping the gas peddle too much and had to crank it a bunch. I discharged my battery fairly good and the studs did get hot as the Denso went to work recharging. I have a brand new engine harness and all my connections are in A-1 shape, cleaned with salt and vinegar soaking (Per my topic on that) so with electrical kinda "being my thing" I did tons of research. A: you need a 70 up solid state type voltage regulator and 2 wire field feed. B: You do need to be aware that any up graded or really Mopars in general are not made to charge discharged batteries. (No cars are, I have 2 friends, one owns a Battery Co. and the other an Alt. rebuilding Co. they have beat it into my head for 20 years!) We put our collective experience together on this, my wiring skills, Lynn's battery and Steve's alt. knowledge, Amps, % reduction per pulley size @ idle RPM's vs exciter levels for output, yada yada yada= this was the best reliable, safe solution. Bull keep in mind I have a 440, everything fit fine, actually it fits better as there was always a bit of a traffic jam running plug wires and fuel lines between the alt. and the water pump housing area. The much smaller diameter Denso leaves more room there. The most dangerous set up is a crappy low amp, no amp at idle, with crappy corroded connections in the bulk heads and other places kind of set up...all it will do is run amps back and forth the harness building up heat, increasing resistance the hotter it gets. You have time, possibly Quick Start will get their unit on the market in time an it will be the simplest and look stock.    Try contacting them.         

[bull]

Thanks. I don't know which Quick Start is the right one. I did a Google search and got more than one possible hit.

As for connections and what not, I too have a new M&H/Y1 harness (lots of them actually) for the engine so corrosion shouldn't be an issue. I also have no alt yet so when I finally get one it should also be clean, unless I get a Tiajuana rebuild.

I don't have a grasp on the relay situation yet so that's something I need to research. I assume you're talking regular old relays without diodes or resistors, right?

And what about OE brackets with a denso? Can they be used or do you have to use Mancini's?

[b5blue]

My "Kit" was 250.00 and has the brackets, bolts and a model # 210-0138 remanufactured Denso alt. all included. The relay stuff will be for load distribution, the switches for my blower fans (I have a rear defogger to add) and headlights will control 40amp relays fed right off alt. output, dropping amps that run through the harness and bulkheads much like Nacho's diagrams outline. Give me some time and I'll see if I can dig up a link for Q. S. it was in one of Nacho's threads. For 15 years I farted around with different factory alt. and at best they had barely minimal idle output, all lead to dimming lights, slowing wipers and blowers at idle, with the corresponding AMP gauge swinging needle from discharge to charge. I wanted a real world test of everything after just changing the alt. itself (no wire mods) and it's passed with flying colors. The relays will be just to improve the efficiency of the whole system. (Also no diodes or resisters needed, just relays and wiring, when I do it I'll post pics.)(I'm trying to cook up a mod that looks kinda factory, plug and play if you will, with factory connectors)     

[bull]

So you must use Mancini's brackets?

When I mentioned the relays, diodes and resistors I meant relays with built-in diodes and resistors. I'm assuming you used relays without built-in diodes and resistors, right? As they have specific uses.

[b5blue]

On the brackets, they get them from someone, I remember seeing them online but can't recall who. (That's why I gave you the part # for the alt.) The relays are "just" 12V relays, I got a bunch of them and the sockets they plug into off eBay. My plan is to run a #8 wire off the alt output to a 150amp distribution buss block with built in fuses. From that I'll feed the load in terminals of all the relays and the factory harness feed. I went with the 120amp over the 60 amp because I'll be adding aftermarket A/C and a 110 volt AC inverter power supply later. If your question is will it fit a "stock" set of brackets, I don't think so. 

[bull]

I'm tempted just to go down to Autozone and buy a 1973 Charger alternator, do the headlight relay upgrade and leave it at that. I lived with the dimming headlights for 11 years when I ran my '70 Charger back in the day and it didn't kill me.

[b5blue]

I get ya, what got me is in Florida the rain can stay for days, running lights with wipers is mandatory and with constant high humidity so are defoggers. Not good on the nerves to be constantly fighting low amps by popping it into neutral to raise idle for + amps then shifting back to pull away and such. Many times I got home and had to put it on the battery charger to top up the darn battery. I mean come on the darn car is called a CHARGER and it won't charge!    For me it boils down to mine being a daily driver, I gotta be ready for hell or high water by the time my beater dies on me and it's pushing 200K miles.

[nh_mopar_fan]

I'm tempted just to go down to Autozone and buy a 1973 Charger alternator, do the headlight relay upgrade and leave it at that. I lived with the dimming headlights for 11 years when I ran my '70 Charger back in the day and it didn't kill me.

I think that'll be my plan. Can I used that on a 1st gen?

[b5blue]

Do a Search here, 1st gen has 1 field wire. You just ground the 2nd one, but get full details from the forum. 

[bull]

I'm tempted just to go down to Autozone and buy a 1973 Charger alternator, do the headlight relay upgrade and leave it at that. I lived with the dimming headlights for 11 years when I ran my '70 Charger back in the day and it didn't kill me.

I think that'll be my plan. Can I used that on a 1st gen?

I've got a new wiring harness from Year One (M&H) which is built for electronic ignition with the newer style alternator. If your harness is stock you'll most likely need to stay stock with the alt., but I'm not one to give advice on this since I can barely figure out my own mess.

[charger2fast4u]

i was looking into running a 100amp alt like in FLG's billet pulley thread. i'm thinking about going with the same kit with the power i'll need to have everything working like b5blue said i'll need mine reliable when i need it. i to have all new wiring harnesses from yearone. i'll be doing the relay mods when i get the charger to that point and a fuse block like said above. anyone know what the output is on the powermaster 100amp alt at idle? 

[bull]

 

Any news on that Quick Start deal yet? I still haven't purchased an alternator.

[b5blue]

  I'm still positive the Denso 120 is the best option for now Bull.
  One wire alts supply everything to/from the battery, not conducive to factory wiring. I've been listed with Quick Start for well over a year as someone willing to literally buy and try the first one they bring to market, never heard even an update. (I've given up on it.)
  I've found the Denso 120 takes better care of the whole charging system and battery just by functioning properly. The engine runs cleaner and stronger never dealing with low amps/voltage leaching spark when a cold motor needs the best spark the most. I have run at night with defroster and wipers on max sitting at idle, nothing suffers, lights are bright and steady, wipers flopping back and forth, blower blasting away at full speed. I've done no mods to the wiring and it's 41 years old, just cleaned and repaired as needed.
  I found that the new OEM brand reproduction AMP gauge is rated for a full 60 amps so I have one to add just as insurance. With my dash center open I've monitored the AMP gauge temp by reaching in to feel how hot things get (For a year now.) and only one time, before I fixed my ignition problem and did a bunch of cranking before it started did it get hot enough to have me shut it down for ten minutes then restart to go home. (The battery was so low it was cranking slower so I knew from my gauge reading the Denso was putting out a lot to charge the battery.) (The gauge functions as it should.)
  It's a bolt on deal with a few jumpers in place it could all be changed back in very little time. (I posted pics in a topic.) The only original part I did away with was the plug wire holder right there behind where the Alt sits, it's close to the output stud and there is so much more room from the smaller diameter Denso it's not needed. I'll never go back now no matter what comes to the market after years of watching my gauge swing back and forth, shifting into neutral to rev up as my lights dimmed and wipers/defroster slowed down. b5     

[elacruze]

FWIW I'm using one off an '86 Durango (at least that's what the paint marker said). I went looking for one with dual v-belt pulleys and that's what I ended up with. 78 Amps, it looks like stock, and I've never had any charging or battery issues in ~6000 miles of everything from all-day freeway to 3 hours in traffic to plenty of days of short-trip driving. I have electronic MP ignition and EFI, and the power windows count for something since I use them all the time. I have the stock R/T lower pulley and my idle speed is 850 rpm. The alternator pulleys are slightly smaller diameter than the stock R/T pulley, so it is turning faster than the original by some amount.

[HeavyFuel]

I'm tempted just to go down to Autozone and buy a 1973 Charger alternator, do the headlight relay upgrade and leave it at that. I lived with the dimming headlights for 11 years when I ran my '70 Charger back in the day and it didn't kill me.

I think that'll be my plan. Can I used that on a 1st gen?

I've got a new wiring harness from Year One (M&H) which is built for electronic ignition with the newer style alternator. If your harness is stock you'll most likely need to stay stock with the alt., but I'm not one to give advice on this since I can barely figure out my own mess.

The set up that you have sounds like the one I'm shooting for. (Mopar electronic ignition with post '71 alternator, duel field).  I also ditching the '68 mech voltage reg for a post '70 electronic one.

I picked up a Powermaster alt that looks good and the power rating looks acceptable.

[bull]

The first thing I look at is that the alt appears close to stock and works with the stock brackets. I understand it won't look exactly like the 68-style from the back but from the front at least I want it to look like it belongs. And I need a single v-belt pulley. The problem I'm seeing at a few places is that the single belt pulley alts put out fewer amps based on the assumed need on cars without A/C. Long story short, it's not overly common to find a 78-amp alt with a single pulley. And the alt I got with the car is a double pulley/non-electronic ignition application so there's nothing there I can use. It tested good though.

Anyway, beyond the stock appearance I'm looking for at least a 75-amp unit with a single pulley. The main issue, if I understand it right, is that the stock-style alts did not put out much juice at idle. While it's good to have a high amp alt we need to make sure the at-idle amps are adequate too.

With that in mind I have a couple questions for the two previous posters. Can you post pics of your Powermaster and Dakota alternators? I have a 94 Dakota with the serpentine pulley; does the 86 Dakota alt look the same (except for the pulley)?

b5 - I think we talked about the Denso before but if I remember correctly what you told me there's no way I'd run an externally cooled alt that doesn't work with the stock brackets.

Eventually I need to figure out this amp/volt meter issue too.

[elacruze]

The Dakota unit is just a square-back, so it looks the same from the front. If you have an alternator shop in town, usually they have a big box of pulleys to swap around. I needed a dual-belt because of my A/C compressor, but I would expect to find a single-groove of the right diameter and shaft size somewhere without a lot of grief.


.

[HeavyFuel]

The powermaster is a rebuilt stock ('71?) squareback, I believe.

I cut steel pipe stock for the spacers to get an exact fit.  Turned out pretty nice.

The single pulley came with a yellowy coating.....I sanded it off and repainted black.

[bull]

Awesome! Thanks for being so quick with the pics.