DodgeCharger.com Forum
July 05, 2022, 12:16:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Please remember: this is the place to discuss Chargers - NOT the place to discuss politics. Political posts will be locked or deleted at the Moderator's discretion.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Login Register Chat  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Superbird major repair/transplant -FAIL! Sept 22 update  (Read 16888 times)
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« on: February 03, 2011, 08:56:39 AM »

Since yesterday was pretty much a ďsnow dayĒ for us here in the Midwest I decided to be productive and open up the 440 in the Superbird to fix my exhaust leak and change the cam since I was not happy with the performance and idle/vacuum quality of the MP Purple shaft in there now. Well, the engine is now down to the short block and I found some alarming things in there. Shocked
First of all, I found my exhaust leak Ė see second picture, can you see a leak path?
Second I pulled off the timing chain and the crank key came off in 2 pieces, I donít remember it looking like that when I put it in there in 2004! And the last picture is the key and the whatís left of the keyway in the lower timing chain sprocket! Itís hard to believe that this thing was running like this! So here is my dilemma, how should I fix this? Iím not comfortable with the crank keyway, the crank is already been turned 0.020 under so I would not likely want to invest much to have the crank repaired, and if Iím going that route, should I do the whole rotating assembly?
Second question on the exhaust, there are really only three options I can think of, another set of used manifolds, a set of new manifolds, or headers. Iím thinking the best route here is a new set of reproduction manifolds, has anyone ever used a set of these? And where is the best place to buy them?
So Iím now open to suggestions on both the exhaust and the crankshaft/keyway
What would you do?


* Copy of IMG_0854.JPG (196.51 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1731 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0853.JPG (177.73 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1800 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0856.JPG (164.05 KB, 784x588 - viewed 1733 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0865.JPG (176.31 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1771 times.)
Logged


Scott Faulkner
moparchris
Senior Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 535



« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 12:31:45 PM »

Wow, that turned into quite a day for you!  I guess if it were my car first I'd look for date coded manifolds.  I wouldn't be afraid to buy a used set.  Depending on how you use the car, you could go cheap and just buy a new timing set and keyway and put it back together.  It would probably be o.k.  That said, if you really don't trust the crank ,you already know what you have to do.  Bite the bullet and get a new crank, which would also include bearings etc...  If it were my car I'd seriuosly consider putting a 4.15 stroker crank in it.  You're already looking at buying a crank and misc. stuff anyways, so why not add pistons and rings to it?bigger motors can run very nicely with a cam that would seem to large in a standard displacment engine and you already pulled the cam also so what the heck?  Just my Twocents
Logged
Arnie Cunningham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475



WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 12:58:49 PM »

The exhaust is easy - the manifold that broke is the most commonly available one by a ratio of about 10 to 1.  It is usually the passenger side that breaks so the driver's side is quite common.  Good used ones with the correct date code are available.  Let me know if you can't find one.

On the crank key, my concern would be the condition of the six pack damper.  That is the hard/expensive part to find if you need it.  If you need a balancer and you decide to redo the entire reciprocating assembly, you may want to have it internally balanced and use a standard 440 balancer.  The clutch/torque converter assembly has to be balanced with all of this.  It looks like you already have replacement pistons so the originality of the engine internals probably is not an issue.
Logged

Brennan R. Cook RM23U0A169492 EV2 Manual Black Buckets Armrest 14" Rallyes
Arnie Cunningham was the Plymouth obsessed youth in the novel/movie Christine.
Brcook.com contains the entire NASCAR shipping list of Superbirds sorted by VIN and a number of other pages dedicated to production information.
hemi68charger
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12,713


Winged Duo..


« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 01:26:11 PM »

I agree, how's the dampner slot? The dampner doesn't need to come for a six pack motor. It's really the '70 4bbl/6bbl dampner (heavy rod dampner). Looks like the slot for the key's been compromised? If it hasn't, I can't imagine the lower rotating assembly has been compromised. Why did you take the heads off? If the crank is trash, then by all means get a new/old one and have it,, along with the rods, balanced. As stated, you'll need all the components that rotate to be together for balancing. I would stick with trying to find an original manifold. They are out there.

Good luck,,,,,,,, man, what a day for you............ 
Logged

Troy
'69 Charger Daytona 440 auto 4.10 Dana ( now 426 HEMI )
'70 Superbird 426 Hemi auto: Lindsley Bonneville Salt Flat world record holder (220.2mph)
Houston Mopar Club Connection
moparstuart
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 27,518


Kansas Mafia Member , Overland park Ks.


« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 01:58:16 PM »

bummer buddy ,         rotz       
Logged

GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE
Dave Kanofsky
Old Timer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1,121


WING IT ! !


« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 12:55:50 PM »

Yikes!  That had to be a scarry day in the garage!
Logged

"God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17, NLT

Racers For Christ Chaplain (www.teamrfc.org)
tan top
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 32,219


69 - R/T SE


« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 01:00:05 PM »

 Shocked nothing is ever straight forward is it !! sorry to see this  brickwall  good job you looked inside when you did  yesnod  popcrn , tough one on the crank  shruggy scratchchin
Logged

Feel free to post any relevant picture you think we all might to see in below threads !

Charger Stuff 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,86777.0.html
Chargers in the background where you least expect them 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,97261.0.html
C500 & Daytonas & Superbirds
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95432.0.html
Interesting pictures & Stuff 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,109484.0.html
Old Dodge dealer photos wanted
 http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,120850.0.html
ChgrSteve67
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,450



« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 01:22:03 PM »

Pull the motor and do it right. Your almost there and it will really suck to have to revisit this again later.
I would be comfortable with repro or used exhaust manifolds.
I have had nothing but issues with headers draging speed bumps and causing exhaust leaks.
Logged
BigBlockSam
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,036



« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 01:29:24 PM »

that crank looks real iffy. i would send that motor out and have it done rite . then you can have confidence driving it  cheers
Logged

I won't be wronged, I wont be Insulted and I wont be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them.

  [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/347b5v5.jpg[/img
Richard Cranium
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,082



« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 01:39:09 PM »

Never saw an exhaust manifold crack like that. By chance did you ever hose the engine down when it was hot?
Logged

I am Dr. Remulac
Devil
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,666


"He wasn't always an Evil Monkey"


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 04:54:58 PM »

Come on..... do it....



Ryan
Logged

ChgrSteve67
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,450



« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 07:50:25 PM »

I'll vote for that.
Logged
elacruze
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,944


Jensen Beach, FL


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 08:07:48 PM »

Obviously, the crank nut wasn't tight enough, or something was keeping it from clamping the sprocket to the crank.
Some guys advocate honing the inside of your balancer to ease installation-I'm not one of them. I just make sure it's clean and unpainted, and tow it home with a proper driver. I'm also obsessive-compulsive about torquing with a known good wrench.

If it was in the farm dump truck, I'd just put it back together correctly. In my Charger, I'd pull the whole thing out-cranks are cheap enough. Looks like either your rings or valve seals could use some attention, too.
Logged

1968 505" EFI 4-speed
1968 D200 Camper Special, 318/2bbl/4spd/4.10
---
Torque converters are for construction equipment.
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2011, 08:59:21 PM »

Well, the engine came out last night with the help of my friend Shad, now I'm still weighing options, but I did find out what my issue was.
As some of you had guessed the lower timing gear was working back and forth on the crank and beating the key/crank/sprocket/oil slinger/and ultimately the damper into oblivion.
Well the crank bolt was tight, and installed correctly. the issue was the crank bolt washer.
take a look at the third picture. The damper is fully pressed onto the crank trapping the oil slinger and lower timing sprocket.
The outer lip of the damper where that the washer contacts, is only 0.015" to 0.020" higher than the center of the crank where the bolt threads into. Soooo..... when the bolt was tightened it was pushing against the damper like it should have, but it deflected at least the difference between the crank and damper. When I held the washer against a straightedge, it was still "conical' and deformed. I turned it over and put it on backwards, torqued the bolt again and the damper seated against the sprocket.
Note to self:
When bolting any damper in place don't just rely on the torque of a fastener.
This $2.00 washer killed my crank and is getting very expensive!

 brickwall


* pullf1.JPG (137.15 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1402 times.)

* pullr2.JPG (145.59 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1420 times.)

* damper.jpg (110.5 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1419 times.)
Logged


Scott Faulkner
62 Max
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,387



« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2011, 09:38:39 PM »

I "assume" you know there are about four different bolt lengths.Two of them are real close and one bottoms out before it tightens enough to keep the washer from seating.I would check the depth of the hole in the shaft and measure the bolt before you put it back together. Twocents
Logged
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »

I "assume" you know there are about four different bolt lengths.Two of them are real close and one bottoms out before it tightens enough to keep the washer from seating.I would check the depth of the hole in the shaft and measure the bolt before you put it back together. Twocents

Thought about that as well, but without the washer the bolt will thread all the way into the crank snout. Near as I can figure the washer had enough "flex" that it was pressing on both the crank and damper, it even has two "rings" on the back where it was contacting both.
  Cry
Logged


Scott Faulkner
Richard Cranium
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,082



« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2011, 06:17:24 AM »

On a seperate, but related note, I had a strange leak on my Daytona when I bought it. Oil pooling in the crank pulley and then slinging around the engine compartment via the fan & alternator belts. The only thing that I could figure weas that oil was travelling down the keyway & out onto the pulley. After tearing the front of the engine apart, I found that the crank washer was deformed a little (dish shaped). A new washer & a little silicone in the end of the keyway seems to have solved that issue. 
Logged

I am Dr. Remulac
Arnie Cunningham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475



WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2011, 12:14:11 PM »

Is it just the way the photo is taken, or do you have a standard 440 (non-external "six pak" balanced) damper on there?  If someone rebalanced your engine to use a standard damper the replacement cost will be much lower.
Logged

Brennan R. Cook RM23U0A169492 EV2 Manual Black Buckets Armrest 14" Rallyes
Arnie Cunningham was the Plymouth obsessed youth in the novel/movie Christine.
Brcook.com contains the entire NASCAR shipping list of Superbirds sorted by VIN and a number of other pages dedicated to production information.
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2011, 09:50:38 PM »

Is it just the way the photo is taken, or do you have a standard 440 (non-external "six pak" balanced) damper on there?  If someone rebalanced your engine to use a standard damper the replacement cost will be much lower.
Brennan,
This is a 440 forged crank damper (I believe same as 6 pack) for internally balanced engines, I would agree that there are various repairs that could be done to  save a few bucks, but I believe I now have a course of action planned out.

As I completed a little more digging into the engine, here is the list of things to be replaced/fixed to make this engine "right". After this eye opening experience I really want to fix this engine and not worry about cutting any corners that could come back to bite me down the road.  Here are the areas needing attention after a thorough exam:
Crankshaft, Damper, Timing gear, oil slinger half the rocker arms, cam and lifters, Cylinder bores/pistons (already bored 0.030 over), exhaust manifolds, clutch and throwout bearing.
Since the rotating assembly is now toast (except for the rods) and an overbore is needed, I've pretty much decided to go with a stroker kit and replace the entire assembly including an aftermarket damper. this will give me an almost new longblock (only reusing the block and head castings) with a displacement of around 498 cubic inches, heads ported to flow and a cam/valvetrain matched to this combo and a new clutch assembly that will be balanced as part of the total rotating assembly. I have already purchased new exhaust manifolds from Year One and am quite impressed with them (at least by looking at them) as well.
I had not planned on this extensive of a rebuild, but I only want to do this once. Since I do drive this car and have logged 10,000 miles on this current setup over the last 5 years with the unplanned variable valve timing. I should be improving the performance of this car significantly, and still be able to drive it anywhere, anytime until I'm too old and feeble to push the clutch pedal in anymore!
This should be an interesting build. I'm fortunate to have not one, but two nationally known Mopar only engine builders/machine shops within a half hour of my house. One is even willing to spec a cam for big displacement/Horsepower & torque but using the stock exhaust manifolds!
Logged


Scott Faulkner
Arnie Cunningham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475



WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2011, 01:24:48 AM »

That sounds like an excellent plan.  Then you will have a Superbird with the horsepower to match the image of the car.

Just to check: I wasn't aware that the reproduction manifolds fit 1970 H pipes.  I thought the flange was 90 degrees different from the 68/69 manifold - on the passenger side.  I think the heat riser valve style was different too.  Did they start making a 70 manifold?
Logged

Brennan R. Cook RM23U0A169492 EV2 Manual Black Buckets Armrest 14" Rallyes
Arnie Cunningham was the Plymouth obsessed youth in the novel/movie Christine.
Brcook.com contains the entire NASCAR shipping list of Superbirds sorted by VIN and a number of other pages dedicated to production information.
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2011, 09:59:43 AM »

That sounds like an excellent plan.  Then you will have a Superbird with the horsepower to match the image of the car.

Just to check: I wasn't aware that the reproduction manifolds fit 1970 H pipes.  I thought the flange was 90 degrees different from the 68/69 manifold - on the passenger side.  I think the heat riser valve style was different too.  Did they start making a 70 manifold?

You are correct, the Year One manifolds are the 68-69 Hp castings. The drivers side is a direct match functionally, except there is no provision mounting the heat stove on it. The passenger side exhaust flange is clocked about 90 degrees from the 70 manifolds, but is parallel to the ground. I will simply cut the flange off of my H pipe and reposition it once I get to that point, then re-weld the flange. I wont be using the hear riser valve anyway so that wont be an issue.
The manifolds arrived here last week and I have to say, they look pretty nice, and are both in one piece!
Logged


Scott Faulkner
BigBlockSam
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,036



« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2011, 11:06:39 AM »

i hope you don't have to bore the engine to much . 60 over might give you a problem with running hot . that nose cone restricts air flow a bit .
Logged

I won't be wronged, I wont be Insulted and I wont be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them.

  [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/347b5v5.jpg[/img
moparstuart
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 27,518


Kansas Mafia Member , Overland park Ks.


« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2011, 06:26:20 PM »

That sounds like an excellent plan.  Then you will have a Superbird with the horsepower to match the image of the car.

Just to check: I wasn't aware that the reproduction manifolds fit 1970 H pipes.  I thought the flange was 90 degrees different from the 68/69 manifold - on the passenger side.  I think the heat riser valve style was different too.  Did they start making a 70 manifold?

You are correct, the Year One manifolds are the 68-69 Hp castings. The drivers side is a direct match functionally, except there is no provision mounting the heat stove on it. The passenger side exhaust flange is clocked about 90 degrees from the 70 manifolds, but is parallel to the ground. I will simply cut the flange off of my H pipe and reposition it once I get to that point, then re-weld the flange. I wont be using the hear riser valve anyway so that wont be an issue.
The manifolds arrived here last week and I have to say, they look pretty nice, and are both in one piece!
  I am running the 69 repo year one manifolds and like them so far 
Logged

GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE
70Sbird
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,003



« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2011, 12:29:03 PM »

Hey everyone, Thought I'd post some update pics of the Superbird's progress. As some of you know I am going back together with a few more inches and some other upgrades. Still hoping to thrash this together in time for the Cleveland meet. Here are a few pics of indicating the belhousing to the new block, the ported heads and the layout of the "stall build"



* Copy of IMG_0936.JPG (184.05 KB, 780x1040 - viewed 1073 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0944.JPG (67.35 KB, 480x360 - viewed 1044 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0949.JPG (92.48 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1048 times.)

* Copy of IMG_0962.JPG (139.92 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1060 times.)
Logged


Scott Faulkner
moparstuart
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 27,518


Kansas Mafia Member , Overland park Ks.


« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2011, 12:32:20 PM »

 drool5 drool5 drool5 drool5 drool5 drool5
Logged

GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 16 queries.