Swapping a Hemi into a 440 Superbird - P/S question

[70Sbird]

Ok, first of all this is not my car, I still have my own wedge issues I'm dealing with!
I got a call the other day from a local guy with a nice 440 Superbird, who is having a 426 Hemi built and is 4-6 weeks away from delivery of the completed engine. He is also having a 727 built for the car and wants me to swap his new engine and transmission into his car from the bottom (like I did with my 'Bird over a year ago).
Before I agree to take on this project and clog up my garage for a while, I would like to know what I'm getting into. The car owner has new engine mounts, and supposedly a Hemi K frame. My biggest concern is that due to the rocker arms used the valve covers are spaced up about .200 of an inch.
Here is my list of concerns: Who has done this before and what am I missing?
1. valve cover to Master cylinder clearance - is there an extra 1/4" for the spaced up valvecovers and tubes?
2. is the Hemi Master cylinder/booster the same (lines facing toward the engine vs. toward the fender)?
3. power steering pump and alternator mounts the same?
4. Starter interchangeable?
5. fuel lines and filter/vapor separator difference
6. Driveshaft length the same?
7. Wiring harness
8. Trans Kickdown linkage?

Thanks for the input everyone!
Here is the car the Hemi is going into  - at Talladega in 2009

[JB400]

What motor and trans are in the car now?

[70Sbird]

What motor and trans are in the car now?

Original 440 (4 bbl) and 727

[hemi68charger]

Scott,
Here's the thread of my former Hemi Charger getting its motor from underneath... Other than that big nose, it should be pretty much the same...

Troy's 426 Hemi installation from underneath

[cdr]

 the brake booster is different
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95270.msg1088884.html#msg1088884

[pettybird]

It's a big job, but it'll be a LOT bigger job if he expects you to fiddle with what he doesn't want to buy to save money.



1. valve cover to Master cylinder clearance - is there an extra 1/4" for the spaced up valvecovers and tubes?

nope.  the booster is on a big bracket on a hemi car.

2. is the Hemi Master cylinder/booster the same (lines facing toward the engine vs. toward the fender)?

master, maybe, booster, yes.  the lines could come out of either side of the master on 440 cars, but LOTS of them came out the passenger side.  you'll need new lines to get to the relocated booster, so no biggy.  the driver exit master is way easier to find.

optionally, he could get one of those stupid looking 'street rod' master/booster combos, though I feel like I lose a year off of my life every time I see one installed in a high dollar car.

3. power steering pump and alternator mounts the same?

yes, though nearly every hemi car uses the Federal PS pump where our cars have the Saginaw piece.  I've seen either work on either.  both accessories bolt to the water pump housing, which is interchangeable.  the alternator would be more correct if you got one for an A/C car so it had a two-groove pulley.  I'm not sure the crank pulley from the 440 swaps.

4. Starter interchangeable?

from /6 all the way up

5. fuel lines and filter/vapor separator difference

the main lines, no, but different when you get above the fuel pump.  get repop hemi lines.  the correct fuel pump has a larger outlet, though the 440 pump fits and would most likely work fine.

6. Driveshaft length the same?

nearly every 727 is the same length, so yes, unless it's a 4 speed car now, then no.

7. Wiring harness

functionalitywise, sure, but it won't look right.  the positive battery cable is a lot different (longer, with the wires for the oil pressure switch integrated.)  the engine harness has the same layout, but it's a two-piece affair with a connector on the passenger valve cover, and the length is off a little.  ingenuity will get it to fit with some splicing, the right way takes $600+


8. Trans Kickdown linkage?

the top horizontal piece and the top pivot are not the same.  the vertical rod and lower linkage should fit fine



if you're pulling the K frame you'd be dumb to not change the lower control arm bushings, and I'd step up the torsion bars to .96".  look over the rest of the steering, too--great time to replace the box, the shocks, the sway bar bushings...


you'll need the manifolds and H pipe, too.  get the hot air tube eliminators and have him run an electric choke.  the throttle cable is different.  coolant pieces are the same.  distributors are the same length.  there's obviously more little crap but it's 1AM 

[hemi68charger]

It's a big job, but it'll be a LOT bigger job if he expects you to fiddle with what he doesn't want to buy to save money.

Now, that's an in-depth analysis.... 

[70Sbird]

Thanks CDR and Doug!
So far the guy is not cheaping out on the correct parts with the engine and accessories. My biggest concern was the master/booster and clearance. From the pictuers in the linked threads it looks like there may be enough room for the additional 1/4 inch he has between the valve covers and heads. BTW, the spark plug tubes are also raised to compensate for the taller valve cover distance (if he gets the correct booster and brackets). Is the spark plug hole blocked (or potentially under) the booster?
Does anyone have a Hemi and brake booster in a 70 B body they could actually take a look at and see what kind of clearance there actually is?
Thanks in advance,
Scott

Here are a few pics of the Hemi and the "spaced up" valve covers - it looks like two gaskets stacked together

[ACUDANUT]

Petty Bird sums it up...My only 2 cents is that you do not need a Hemi-K Frame.

[moparstuart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvE2fubRLA0

  check out this video right at about 30 second in  then about 5 minutes in  then again at 8:35  or so

also if you have never seen a nose cone broken down into its components parts pretty cool

[pettybird]

There's more than an inch and a half between the cover and the booster.  With the spark plug wire pulled, I can get my whole hand in there.

[70Sbird]

There's more than an inch and a half between the cover and the booster.  With the spark plug wire pulled, I can get my whole hand in there.

Thanks again Doug, so it looks like if he gets the correct booster and Master, I'll be ok!

For Troy (or anyone) I watched your video (and saw the space where Dougs han can fit), but I had another question. I noticed that you dropped the car on the Hemi with out the valve covers installed. Any particular reason why?

Thanks
Scott

[pettybird]

it's reeeeeal tight with them on.  if you're going to put the motor in before the booster, it's an idea.  If the brakes are in place, you'd have to move the booster to get the cover on. 

You have less than an inch on either side squeezing the motor between the framerails.  Have helpers!

[70Sbird]

it's reeeeeal tight with them on.  if you're going to put the motor in before the booster, it's an idea.  If the brakes are in place, you'd have to move the booster to get the cover on. 

You have less than an inch on either side squeezing the motor between the framerails.  Have helpers!

The engine will get here right from the builder. Completed, test run and set up. I'm not in favor of unbolting any parts from the engine if I can help it. so I'm thinking install the booster and M/C, then lowering the car over the complete engine and trans. I can definately recruit a few extra bodies for this project

[pettybird]

that's the best idea. 

[Hemi_tyme]

it's reeeeeal tight with them on.  if you're going to put the motor in before the booster, it's an idea.  If the brakes are in place, you'd have to move the booster to get the cover on. 

You have less than an inch on either side squeezing the motor between the framerails.  Have helpers!

The engine will get here right from the builder. Completed, test run and set up. I'm not in favor of unbolting any parts from the engine if I can help it. so I'm thinking install the booster and M/C, then lowering the car over the complete engine and trans. I can definately recruit a few extra bodies for this project

Lowering the car over the fat headed motor is the best way. I did this to my 66 Satellite a few years ago by myself a little tight going around the shock towers but not bad. I did use the Schumacher Hemi mounts that was the best money spent and didn't have to buy a 1k K-frame if need so I can unbolt the Hemi and drop the 440 back in.
Ken

[70moparman]

Looking forward to more updates on project LUCKY BASTARD...  lol      But seriously, love your car...  And your motor... I'm jealous...

[Hemi Runner]

Those look like the valve cover spacers that Mancini sells. They're needed when running aftermarket rockers with stock covers. Let me know if you need any help. You have my number.

[70Sbird]

Those look like the valve cover spacers that Mancini sells. They're needed when running aftermarket rockers with stock covers. Let me know if you need any help. You have my number.

Thanks Mike,
That is exactly what is going on with the rockers/spacers! 

[ACUDANUT]

Running taller valve covers seems like it's really going be a bitch with the Brake booster.

[Hemi Runner]

Running taller valve covers seems like it's really going be a bitch with the Brake booster.

The passenger side shock tower is more of an issue than the brake booster.

[Daytona Guy]

I have more room on the sides with my HEMI than I had with my 440. This booster system gives all kinds of room, but it does seem a bit lengthy. I am going to remove this and go manual - with the disc brakes. I did this before - and had all kinds of stopping ability - and actually felt more real and in control. Also, not sure who it was, but on this board there is a B-HEMI guy that made this suggestion to me. The leverage that the break gives you is very strong.

I put in my HEMI engine in by top loading it - I had it installed in 10 minutes. The Schumacher mounts are absolutely amazing (no need for a K frame change - any v8 K frame works). Lined up perfect the first time - two bolts and it was done - by myself. They do not cause the engine to sit high - they are perfect. I'm glad I did not lower the car over the engine (just me). The tranny also went in very easy - two guys.  

Look at the distance down the sides - and the booster has all kinds of room. With this - if you needed to change the back plug, 4 bolts and the master cyl can lean forward for a straight shot.

[ACUDANUT]

 I'm a top loader too.

[moparstuart]

 i top load motor and tranny and all   

[70moparman]

Toploader... but motor only, tired of spilling tranny fluid all over the driveway! (And so is my wife, lol)

[70Sbird]

Just a quick follow-up question.
It looks like this project is going to happen and the owner has already accumulated most of the parts.
He has a new Saginaw (oval filler neck) P/S pump and brackets for the Hemi, I believe they will bolt up based on the previous comments.
However, I can only remember seeing the Federal (round filler neck) pumps on Hemis. Is there a correct answer as to which pump is 100% correct for a Hemi in a Superbird, or were both used?
Thanks
Scott

[maxwellwedge]

Federal pump is the only one for a hemi.....had a special pulley on the factory cars.

[ernie]

the saginaw will bolt up and function correctly i replaced a 440+6 in a cuda (that came with a saginaw pump,brackets and hoses) with a Hemi and it all bolted up and works just fine, but the federal is corrrect in restoration applications

[pettybird]

Come on man

3. power steering pump and alternator mounts the same?

yes, though nearly every hemi car uses the Federal PS pump where our cars have the Saginaw piece.  I've seen either work on either.  both accessories bolt to the water pump housing, which is interchangeable.  the alternator would be more correct if you got one for an A/C car so it had a two-groove pulley.  I'm not sure the crank pulley from the 440 swaps.

[moparstuart]

 he got us all excited and isnt even getting the car until the end of march 

[pettybird]

he got us all excited and isnt even getting the car until the end of march 

then you can race him to running 

[moparstuart]

he got us all excited and isnt even getting the car until the end of march  

then you can race him to running  

he will win   although mines runs it just doesnt move

[ACUDANUT]

Stu, where is the video of your running car ?

[70Sbird]

he got us all excited and isnt even getting the car until the end of march 

this is true, Project "LB" is a go but the owner will be going to an indoor show on March 30 and I'll have the car after that. But, I'm going to be picking up the Hemi and most of the parts here in a week or so. The engine is done and hopefully the trans will be done shortly as well. I'm hoping to have it mostly together and ready so that when the Limelight Bird does show up the swapping over will only take a few weeks.

[moparstuart]

he got us all excited and isnt even getting the car until the end of march 

this is true, Project "LB" is a go but the owner will be going to an indoor show on March 30 and I'll have the car after that. But, I'm going to be picking up the Hemi and most of the parts here in a week or so. The engine is done and hopefully the trans will be done shortly as well. I'm hoping to have it mostly together and ready so that when the Limelight Bird does show up the swapping over will only take a few weeks.

I have a lime light bird  i'll bring you now , we can have that hemi tested and tuned and broken in