Wouldn't this be awesome. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-Daytona-426-hemi-daytona-4-speed-real-original-nascar-48-
Link didn't work for me but here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-Daytona-426-hemi-daytona-4-speed-real-original-nascar-48-jame-hylton-1969-and-1970-/121505751008?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c4a4e9fe0&item=121505751008&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
This would be cool to restore. Some nice vintage pix in the ad as well. Hope it goes to a good home.
:coolgleamA: think the owner of this car is , or use to be a member here , or the old site :scratchchin: car looks familiar :yesnod:
:popcrn:
:coolgleamA:
:coolgleamA:
1968 rear quarters? Flush rear window gone too.
a minor spelling pet peeve (...sorry), but "Nickels" is spelled "Nichels"
Okay rant off.... :icon_smile_wink:
That's a cool and interesting car! :2thumbs:
Hope it finds it way into a good home.
Quote from: Alaskan_TA on December 02, 2014, 07:12:52 PM
1968 rear quarters?
Very large gap in time between the 1970 crash and being discovered in the 2000's. I don't know that the gap has ever been explained; who did the repair, where was it, did anyone ever race it again at a lower level, etc. It is possible the car was fitted with a replacement body shell that has now rotted away. The point is, there was lots of time and opportunity to change things around. The car was hit VERY hard, killing the driver.
May have had a 66-67 style dash.
My initial thought about this car is that you probably would not repair it as bad as it was hit and banana'ed. This photo doesn't show it well. Does not seem that it would be economical.
In open wheel racing and the days of the Indy roadsters, it was fairly common for death cars to be repaired and race on with new meat in the seat.
On the hook.
One older pic shows flush rear glass and the current pic shows recessed rear glass.
Wow, I didn't know the driver was killed.... I just finished reading the ebay write-up. Man, that's a shame.
Quote from: rnjump on December 02, 2014, 07:48:03 PM
One older pic shows flush rear glass and the current pic shows recessed rear glass.
That really means nothing. If a car was raceable for 1971 or later, it got the plug removed and a regular glass reinstalled. A pretty quick fix. Most cars eventually got completely new, updated bodies. This car if it was repaired, may have gotten an entirely new skin. You could race a car like this in Late Model Sportsman with the 70 Charger body into the late 1970's.
Quote from: TUFCAT on December 02, 2014, 07:51:09 PM
Wow, I didn't know the driver was killed.... I just finished reading the ebay write-up. Man, that's a shame.
Hylton advised him not to run that race and get some more experience before trying Daytona. He had limited short track experience and it was his first time on a big speedway. The engine blew, the car skidded sideways on the banking and was T-boned full bore in the door.
And why would the name "James Hylton" be shown on the roof, all weathered, when he lettered his cars on the top of the door?
And... the last owner was not "James Hylton" anyways!
A couple of flaws in the plot. :shruggy:
And the roof lettering is yellow, which means when the car was all painted, back in the day, you couldn't see the lettering!
Ah!! I get it!!! :smilielol:
The car has been completely rebodied which is normal, and from the looks of it a good part of the roll cage replaced as well. I would certainly want to look over the chassis closely before I was ready to spring on this one.
Ok. Heading to 7-11 to get my Lotto tix!
Quote from: odcics2 on December 02, 2014, 08:09:46 PM
And why would the name "James Hylton" be shown on the roof, all weathered, when he lettered his cars on the top of the door?
And... the last owner was not "James Hylton" anyways!
A couple of flaws in the plot. :shruggy:
I believe the roof lettering was applied in modern days, quickly deteriorated from exposure. It looks like vinyl shrinking up. think Bill said he had to keep the car outside.
What's the difference between a 66-7 dash and later dash configuration ?
Didn't read the whole thread.
Some died in that car?
Quote from: F8-4life on December 02, 2014, 08:44:55 PM
Didn't read the whole thread.
Some died in that car?
Unfortunately, yes
Definitely the original Jack McCoy daytona front clip
Cotton Owens is mentioned in the paperwork wonder why?
Quote from: 1RareBird on December 02, 2014, 09:00:18 PM
Definitely the original Jack McCoy daytona front clip
So, what's on the restored McCoy Daytona? :shruggy: :shruggy: :shruggy:
Quote from: warmpancakes on December 02, 2014, 09:02:37 PM
Cotton Owens is mentioned in the paperwork wonder why?
Cotton must have been on his daily constitutional. Inman, S.C. isn't that far from Spartanburg, S.C. :scope:
Nope, if someone died in that car, wouldn't want anything to do with it, nope. :rotz:
As far as name on car I put it on the car when I took it too show in 2009. And it was white letters that James have me. And what do you mean about Cotton?
Cotton is mentioned because he is the one that told me about the car. He knew I was looking for one.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63396.0.html
Quote from: Aero426 on August 19, 2010, 09:54:09 AM
That is the Prince crash. Look how the car is bent into a Vee.
The Prince crash car was #78
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_0927.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_0928.jpg)
Hi Aero folks,
Here we go again LOL!
68 bodyshell, front clip off another car, floorpan rotted away, new doors, repaired rollcage, and some odds pieces of tubing from a local DIY store! :eek2:
I suppose because its on wheels and has a roof, it looks REAL!!!.................... :shruggy:
At least NW's Daytona is all original sheetmetal, albeit not a lot of it!!! :scratchchin:
Keeping away from this one methinks?
5J
Depends on your definition. As a race car it was never sold as an XX29 car Daytona in the first place so in that sense NONE of it was ever a real Daytona. On the other hand, as a race vehicle its one of the ONLY real Daytonas. Of course as a race car it has also probably been skinned at some point as a number of other real cars.
Hi Mr.Ghoste.
A Real Daytona BODYSHELL is a vehicle put together by the 'factory' that is Mother Mopar!
It was assembled as a 69 Charger and modified by Creative.
Then the so called 'racecars' are modified Daytona's or 500's.
These were then re-modified for race duties and have a timeline from 'FACTORY TO TRACK'
Rule changes then made them re-re-modified for windowless Regulations.
If they are rebodied earlier cars then they were never Real Daytona or 500's to start with.
If they were re-bodied afterwards for different Formula's etc, whats left of the ORIGINAL CAR???
The only part that never really changes is the Floorpan!
WAS OK WITH THIS CAR TILL I SAW THE 71 REAR SHEETMETAL AND THAT BUMPER TAKES THE BISCUIT!!! :brickwall:
I think it stains the memory of a man who died in it!!! :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: 500Jon on December 03, 2014, 08:35:50 AM
Hi Mr.Ghoste.
A Real Daytona is a vehicle put together by the 'factory' that is Mother Mopar!
It was assembled as a 69 Charger and modified by Creative.
Then the so called 'racecars' are modified Daytona's or 500's.
These were then re-modified for race duties and have a timeline from 'FACTORY TO TRACK'
Rule changes then made them re-re-modified for windowless Regulations.
If they are rebodied earlier cars then they were never Real Daytona or 500's to start with.
If they were re-bodied afterwards for different Formula's etc, whats left of the ORIGINAL CAR???
The only part that never really leaves is the Floorpan!
THAT'S ALL THIS RACECAR REALLY IS/WAS AND SHALL BE!!! :shruggy:
WAS OK WITH THIS CAR TILL I SAW THE 71 REAR SHEETMETAL AND THAT BUMPER TAKES THE BISCUIT!!! :brickwall:
I think it stains the memory of a man who died in it!!! :'( :'( :'(
In terms of provenance, you must completely separate the street Daytonas from the race cars. They have nothing to do with one another.
Almost all of the race cars started out as unserialized Charger bodies. Some could be 1968 race cars updated to a Charger 500, then a Daytona, then back to a conventional Charger later. Yet, they are all the same car.
Cars were raced, wrecked, repaired, raced some more, wrecked some more, fixed and raced until there was literally nothing left. Replacement of bodies was typical, if only to update to a newer model to keep racing. The same chassis could race for ten years if it was lucky. You must look below the skin to see the car you are really dealing with. Focusing only on the exterior bits can lead you astray.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 03, 2014, 09:42:14 AM
Almost all of the race cars started out as unserialized Charger bodies.
game, set, and match.
if a body didn't leave chrysler as a daytona, it can never become a daytona. it can however become a felony, which still does not seem to deter the rebody fans.
All the posts that say a bumper is wrong a plug is missing etc. are comments made by people that must not have a clue about the race car side of this. All these experts make comments about cars and do not realize how many changes these things went thru. This car was rebodied had bars put in bars removed. It was last used as a dirt car it appeared when I got it. That is probably why there is a bumper from some other year on it.
There has to be a percentage of a car that can be said to be real. I dont make that call, but someone has decided it. This car was looked over by Cotton Owens and said to be correct for the time period. He never said it was Hyltons car. Then Hylton was asked to look at the car. There were parts that he said he put in the car. Do we call all of these old timers liars and mental patients? There is physical evidence according to James that this was his car. If only part of the cage and the parts he added are left do we scrap it and say it cant be real or do we respect the guy that raced and built it?
And what if you had a picture of parts of the car then. And now those parts are gone do you say it cant be? So based on some of the physical evidence that is left, drivers side rework, matching yellow paint, bars Hylton put in and said beyond a shadow of a doubt he put them in why cant it be what it is said to be?
Yah, I don't see a plug on this car either. Bummer. :smilielol:
Guess it isn't the real deal.....
Scrap it....
Bill you should post up some pics of your recently acquired "storage locker" on the COG thread.
I think we can lay to rest the miss-matched sheet metal-its an old race car. Given what happened to all the Nascar Late Model Chargers in my neck of the woods I'm surprised it doesn't have a rusty 78 Mirada body on it.
I need to correct something in previous posts. Went back to my notes and Cotton did tell me he thought it was Hylton's car.
I understand that a racecar is not what it starts out as.
The term Daytona does not relate to racecars, just a Charger body with add-ons.
The body seems almost irrelevant in your eyes.
Its all about who built it and who raced it!
I think the door is wide open for abuse here?
I have parts off a 69 Charger racecar that was raced as a Daytona.
How many pieces do I need to make it legit, if and when I rebuild it???
5J
Quote from: 500Jon on December 03, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
The body seems almost irrelevant in your eyes.
Its all about who built it and who raced it!
Body is not irrelevant. If you can, you'd like it to have the original body. On these cars, that is often not possible. You do have to have some proof "in the metal" of what you are claiming.
Quote from: 5hunert on December 03, 2014, 01:22:48 PM
I think we can lay to rest the miss-matched sheet metal-its an old race car. Given what happened to all the Nascar Late Model Chargers in my neck of the woods I'm surprised it doesn't have a rusty 78 Mirada body on it.
:iagree:
I was looking at the front clip and noticed it did not appear to be modified for fenders and nose. I asked seller and he said it bolted directly onto the car. No mdifications needed.
Also I recall using my race wing braces to verify the holes in the trunk. And they fit the pattern on each side. Why would that be if there was never a wing? Just adding a few more facts.
This car is authentic in that it competed at Nascar sanctioned races as a Dodge Daytona at some point in it's life. 1969 and early 70.
It is one of almost no surviving examples of a car to have this rite of passage in it's history and to me it is the most desirable of Daytona's available because it performed the specific duties the car was designed for. It raced. The street Daytona existed for the sole purpose to justify this car's presence at Nascar events. There was no other reason to produce the street version and if Chrysler could have raced this car without producing a street version and all the associated problems I am sure they would have taken that route. Especially since they produced the bare minimum to satisfy Nascar requirements.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on December 03, 2014, 12:39:23 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on August 19, 2010, 09:54:09 AM
That is the Prince crash. Look how the car is bent into a Vee.
The Prince crash car was #78
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_0927.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_0928.jpg)
Which newspaper was the crash report out of? What caught my eye was the reporting on the Baldwinsville-Jamesville/Dewitt swim meet. I grew up in Baldwinsville and don't live to far away from the town still.
:popcrn:
Doug, what would be a fair price on this car? Seriously considering making an offer on it.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 03, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
I understand that a racecar is not what it starts out as.
The term Daytona does not relate to racecars, just a Charger body with add-ons.
The body seems almost irrelevant in your eyes.
Its all about who built it and who raced it!
I think the door is wide open for abuse here?
I have parts off a 69 Charger racecar that was raced as a Daytona.
How many pieces do I need to make it legit, when I rebuild it???
5J
I have the entire front end as found behind Don White's shop in the woods, wing and trunk supports (and those are all hand made, no two alike) rear glass, axle cooler, seat, the documented short block assy that was in it in the 1969 Daytona 500 (numbered 99) as a dark blue Charger 500, not to mention the entire rolling car that had the 73 Charger body on it. Yes, it sat outside and was rusty. That's all well known.
I also have a PILE of vintage documentation & photos that show certain aspects of the car back in the day, that are the same today. That helps...
A bunch of the guys that worked with and on the car have seen it and signed off, over 10 years ago, when that sort of thing didn't mean too much.
I guess this would be the amount of stuff to make it legit. (and then some!)
I'm going through immense pains to not overlook even the smallest detail and using only period correct parts.
A hard thing to do, for sure, but that's the only way I'll be happy with the results!
The car will not be all super shiny, but a period correct 'race car' finish, inside and out.
Maybe I'm going too far with the project, but in my opinion, the car deserves it.
Quote from: 69_500 on December 03, 2014, 05:45:14 PM
Doug, what would be a fair price on this car? Seriously considering making an offer on it.
It is uncharted waters as there are no comps.
nearly $50,000 and climbing.... ($49,600) :popcrn:
Chicken and Egg scenario with Daytona's and 500's.
The racecar built in conjunction with the roadcar.
I think 'Rose tinted glasses' are being used when looking at these 'old racecars'.
Raced and wrecked then dumped 'out-back'! :shruggy:
Faithful Old timers always looking to find them and restore back to former glory.
This is where it can fall apart, this car is a BITSA!
Almost Frank 'n' Stein now.
Many great Race Car drivers have lost their lives in Race Cars.
They and their vehicles should be laid to rest as a mark of respect
Just my :Twocents:
That would be great Danny if you can get that car. That would be the ultimate Daytona.
Quote from: 69_500 on December 03, 2014, 05:45:14 PM
Doug, what would be a fair price on this car? Seriously considering making an offer on it.
:o good stuff , fingers crossed :cheers: :popcrn:
now past the magic $50K mark and still on reserve.
Quote from: odcics2 on December 03, 2014, 07:58:26 PM
Quote from: 500Jon on December 03, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
I understand that a racecar is not what it starts out as.
The term Daytona does not relate to racecars, just a Charger body with add-ons.
The body seems almost irrelevant in your eyes.
Its all about who built it and who raced it!
I think the door is wide open for abuse here?
I have parts off a 69 Charger racecar that was raced as a Daytona.
How many pieces do I need to make it legit, when I rebuild it???
5J
I have the entire front end as found behind Don White's shop in the woods, wing and trunk supports (and those are all hand made, no two alike) rear glass, axle cooler, seat, the documented short block assy that was in it in the 1969 Daytona 500 (numbered 99) as a dark blue Charger 500, not to mention the entire rolling car that had the 73 Charger body on it. Yes, it sat outside and was rusty. That's all well known.
I also have a PILE of vintage documentation & photos that show certain aspects of the car back in the day, that are the same today. That helps...
A bunch of the guys that worked with and on the car have seen it and signed off, over 10 years ago, when that sort of thing didn't mean too much.
I guess this would be the amount of stuff to make it legit. (and then some!)
I'm going through immense pains to not overlook even the smallest detail and using only period correct parts.
A hard thing to do, for sure, but that's the only way I'll be happy with the results!
The car will not be all super shiny, but a period correct 'race car' finish, inside and out.
Maybe I'm going too far with the project, but in my opinion, the car deserves it.
Gregg I think your car may be the exception here. It was the test car then it was most likely documented and photographed. More than likely none of the race teams back then took the time to document their cars.
In getting back to present day, what would the procedure be for restifying/rebuilding of the present day car. I would remove the boltons, have it dipped then check the chassis for straightness and then call AMD. Any other ideas ? :shruggy:
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on December 04, 2014, 03:56:42 PM
In getting back to present day, what would the procedure be for restifying/rebuilding of the present day car. I would remove the boltons, have it dipped then check the chassis for straightness and then call AMD. Any other ideas ? :shruggy:
Have you looked at the Hylton thread lately? The original chassis appears to be 65-66 B body. The '69 body on it now is wider, hence the gaps between the main hoop of the roll cage and the body. The rear springs are not "up" into the chassis. (that started in 68)
James had at least 2 cars. This one appears to have been updated through the years.
The steering system is pre 68. And maybe this was at one time the 65 Dodge James ran? Who knows?
Bottom line - a correct resto would have to have the earlier floorpans put in to be correct.
The K&K short track car is NOT a 69 Charger, but an Isaac 67 fastback car, originally. (was the #37)
It has the same issues with the main hoop of the cage being not wide enough.
odcics2, Given what the car is in your opinion what would be the proper step forward to preserve the car from further rust up to panel replacement ?
Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2014, 04:11:53 PM
Have you looked at the Hylton thread lately? The original chassis appears to be 65-66 B body. The '69 body on it now is wider, hence the gaps between the main hoop of the roll cage and the body. The rear springs are not "up" into the chassis. (that started in 68)
James had at least 2 cars. This one appears to have been updated through the years.
The steering system is pre 68. And maybe this was at one time the 65 Dodge James ran? Who knows?
Bottom line - a correct resto would have to have the earlier floorpans put in to be correct.
The K&K short track car is NOTa 69 Charger, but an Isaac 67 fastback car, originally. (was the #37)
It has the same issues with the main hoop of the cage being not wide enough.
If indeed it is much earlier car, it is also possible it was not originally built at Nichels. For example, Owens and other big teamd built their own cars at that time. That also helps explain why certain features do not fit the mold of a 1968 and newer Nichels car.
Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on December 04, 2014, 05:02:56 PM
odcics2, Given what the car is in your opinion what would be the proper step forward to preserve the car from further rust up to panel replacement ?
Take the body off and get it dipped. Jig it up and see if it's straight.
Take photos of EVERYTHING for witness marks.
Then, you'll see where you stand! :2thumbs:
Some Hylton car pics-
a few more
Quote from: Aero426 on December 04, 2014, 05:46:34 PM
Quote from: odcics2 on December 04, 2014, 04:11:53 PM
Have you looked at the Hylton thread lately? The original chassis appears to be 65-66 B body. The '69 body on it now is wider, hence the gaps between the main hoop of the roll cage and the body. The rear springs are not "up" into the chassis. (that started in 68)
James had at least 2 cars. This one appears to have been updated through the years.
The steering system is pre 68. And maybe this was at one time the 65 Dodge James ran? Who knows?
Bottom line - a correct resto would have to have the earlier floorpans put in to be correct.
The K&K short track car is NOTa 69 Charger, but an Isaac 67 fastback car, originally. (was the #37)
It has the same issues with the main hoop of the cage being not wide enough.
If indeed it is much earlier car, it is also possible it was not originally built at Nichels. For example, Owens and other big teamd built their own cars at that time. That also helps explain why certain features do not fit the mold of a 1968 and newer Nichels car.
:iagree:
The way the main roll cage bars on James' car lean forward is odd and is a unique feature. Although the Ebay car has reconstructed bars in that area, they also lean forward. That is not normal for a 1968 and newer Nichels car. Bars should be straight up and down vertical.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=114816.0;attach=230968;image)
Are you really trying say that these racer guys were putting full Daytona bodies on 66/67 floorpans!
You cannot be SERIOUS!!! (Johnny McEnroe).
There comes a time when its out with the old and in with the NEW!
These guys were MAD, but they weren't CRAZY!!!
Who in their right mind would reshell a plodding 66/67 car?
If I knew I was gonna be running over the 200mph barrier in a Stock-bodied car it would have to 'State of the ART'.
Everything 'NEW' and uprated to the MAX!!!
Lets get real Folks.
We are not talking Dirt-track here, this is FULL-ON ballistic Missiles! :woohoo:
It took the Full backing and teamwork of Chryslers greatest minds to make RACE-DAYTONA'S!!! :patriot:
Not a Guy in a Chicken Shed with an Oxy-kit LOL. :slap:
The #78 car is bent/bowed/buckled, no-one in their right mind would or probably could repair it!
Where's JOHNNY?
Quote from: 500Jon on December 05, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
Are you really trying say that these racer guys were putting full Daytona bodies on 66/67 floorpans!
These guys were MAD, but they weren't CRAZY!!!
Who in their right mind would reshell a plodding 66/67 car?
If I knew I was gonna be running over the 200mph barrier in a Stock-bodied car it would have to 'State of the ART'.
Everything 'NEW' and uprated to the MAX!!!
For some of the second tier teams, this is a possibility. James Hylton never had a factory deal like Petty, Nichels, Owens, etc. He raced for a living mostly with second hand cars. In fact, he still does. The idea of him recycling some older equipment back then is not out of the question at all.
Interesting to chew on. This is from mid-1969. Talks about a "new" car Hylton built using some Holman-Moody components. It speaks to the fact that he did not have a deal with Chrysler other than for parts here and there.
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll56/Aero426/Ayers/HyltonCar.jpg)
Chrysler NASCAR "Factory teams" of the era seem to have received 1 to 2 cars comped to them per season. Also depends on how many races they were going to run, repairs needed, etc. Those would be:
Plymouth: Petty (three cars + 1 new build mid season for 1970)
Dodge: K & K, Owens, Fox, Rossi
Others paid out of pocket or were on a limited program, such as parts assistance. I am sure there were special circumstances were teams not on a full program were given cars parts and equipment based on need. Stuff could "fall off the truck" in front of the shop, you know.
That's more like it Aero!
A proper factory built car (BODY)!!! :cheers:
Modified by 'Fred in his Shed' lol!
If this 'ebay' wreck is that car in this article, then I will eat my hat and some humble pie too!
Its not easy building a 'State of the ART' racecar, no matter who you are.
Been there, done that several times, it takes a lot of time and money!
If you wanna go racing, you ain't got time, never enough money, BUT a factory body will really HELP!!! :buff: :hack: :smash:
Keep up the good work there fella's.
5J
Are you talking about Chrysler racers getting street wing cars and then building them up to go racing?
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 03:42:07 PM
Are you talking about Chrysler racers getting street wing cars and then building them up to go racing?
gosh....I hope not! :brickwall: I think 500Jon means a factory body (i.e. body in white) supplied by Chrysler purposely to go racing.
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 03:42:07 PM
Are you talking about Chrysler racers getting street wing cars and then building them up to go racing?
No, we are talking about complete or partially complete race cars delivered to teams from Nichels Engineering, paid for by Chrysler.
No I knew what you meant Doug, was wondering if Jon was thinking about something else.
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 04:40:57 PM
No I knew what you meant Doug, was wondering if Jon was thinking about something else.
Sorry, little trigger happy here.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 05, 2014, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 04:40:57 PM
No I knew what you meant Doug, was wondering if Jon was thinking about something else.
Sorry, little trigger happy here.
Understandable under the circumstances. Between the discussion here and the massive thread on Facebook I don't believe I have seen a car generate this much interest for a while. Which kind of verifies the point I made earlier about the most valuable wing cars would or should be the ones that actually raced back in the day no matter what their origin.
That list is a short one. Your car the Ramo Stott Superbird, The Pete Hamilton Superbird ( originally the Petty Superbird)The Tim Welborn 71 Bobby Issacs car, The Jack Macoy #7, Soon the # 88 200 mph Don White Daytona , The Dave Marcis Daytona currently a Winston Show car and now possibly this car. Did I leave any out?
Quote from: Stevearino on December 05, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on December 05, 2014, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 04:40:57 PM
No I knew what you meant Doug, was wondering if Jon was thinking about something else.
Sorry, little trigger happy here.
Understandable under the circumstances. Between the discussion here and the massive thread on Facebook I don't believe I have seen a car generate this much interest for a while. Which kind of verifies the point I made earlier about the most valuable wing cars would or should be the ones that actually raced back in the day no matter what their origin.
That list is a short one. Your car the Ramo Stott Superbird, The Pete Hamilton Superbird ( originally the Petty Superbird)The Tim Welborn 71 Bobby Issacs car, The Jack Macoy #7, Soon the # 88 200 mph Don White Daytona , The Dave Marcis Daytona currently a Winston Show car and now possibly this car. Did I leave any out?
The Allison #22.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 05, 2014, 05:54:18 PM
Quote from: Stevearino on December 05, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on December 05, 2014, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 05, 2014, 04:40:57 PM
No I knew what you meant Doug, was wondering if Jon was thinking about something else.
Sorry, little trigger happy here.
Understandable under the circumstances. Between the discussion here and the massive thread on Facebook I don't believe I have seen a car generate this much interest for a while. Which kind of verifies the point I made earlier about the most valuable wing cars would or should be the ones that actually raced back in the day no matter what their origin.
That list is a short one. Your car the Ramo Stott Superbird, The Pete Hamilton Superbird ( originally the Petty Superbird)The Tim Welborn 71 Bobby Issacs car, The Jack Macoy #7, Soon the # 88 200 mph ENGINEERING Daytona , The Dave Marcis Daytona currently a Winston Show car and now possibly this car. Did I leave any out?
The Allison #22.
Which one??
p.s. fixed the #88 info... :cheers:
:lol:
Quote from: Stevearino on December 05, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Understandable under the circumstances. Between the discussion here and the massive thread on Facebook I don't believe I have seen a car generate this much interest for a while. Which kind of verifies the point I made earlier about the most valuable wing cars would or should be the ones that actually raced back in the day no matter what their origin.
That list is a short one. Your car the Ramo Stott Superbird, The Pete Hamilton Superbird ( originally the Petty Superbird)The Tim Welborn 71 Bobby Issacs car, The Jack Macoy #7, Soon the # 88 200 mph Don White Daytona , The Dave Marcis Daytona currently a Winston Show car and now possibly this car. Did I leave any out?
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
Looks like the same car in the James Hylton Charger @ Talladega thread from 2009, but now has a nose cone and engine.
A BODY is a BODYSHELL from the Factory/Creative that is shaped like a Daytona!
I'm sure this wasn't a 'white-body' more a YELLOW body from the factory?
What happens to the cars after that is down to the individual RACE team.
Hylton states that he is not a factory team so he has a free hand in what he does.(within the rules).
Its just a shame that the Hylton Charger-Daytona wasn't picture documented like some were.
This may be a help or hinderance in restoration and verification?
The article says a Racecar not a bare Daytona shell, probably on wheels some chassis mods already done?
I rest my case, Sherlock said to Holmes or was it Watson?
This car looked much better in 2009 with the 71 front!
Now its lovely framework been hacked off and an engine added too, its gone ballistic!
Just shows what a false front can do to folks.
If James was so Happy to get his new Charger-Daytona, why did he sell it?
He put his Heart and Soul and all his money into the #48 car.
I see less of that 'possible' #48-car here than the Daytona in the PIT!
Double standards methinks, any thing goes with Racecar Daytona's, recreations not allowed with Roadcar Daytona's!
Where's Johnny? :RantExplode:
But you aren't under the impression that Creative was sending bodies in white (or yellow or black or whatever) to the racers with nose cones and wings already attached are you?
Well, it's off of Ebay. Says not available anymore....
Ray Evernham buy it??? :shruggy:
So when this car comes back will it be considered a rebody or does that only count on street versions. There's not gonna be much left of the original car once its done.
Quote from: buck0123 on December 06, 2014, 02:05:46 AM
Looks like the same car in the James Hylton Charger @ Talladega thread from 2009, but now has a nose cone and engine.
Correct. The latest owner added the nose and engine.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 06, 2014, 06:20:42 AM
If James was so Happy to get his new Charger-Daytona, why did he sell it?
He put his Heart and Soul and all his money into the #48 car.
Hylton sold his Dodges because he switched to Ford. Although he ran very well for several years on his own, he did not have a deal with Dodge. It was clear he was not going to get a deal with Dodge. There was no reason to stay if he thought he might be able to do better elsewhere. He won a race at Richmond VA in the Ford shortly thereafter.
Quote from: Nwcharger on December 06, 2014, 12:11:44 PM
So when this car comes back will it be considered a rebody or does that only count on street versions. There's not gonna be much left of the original car once its done.
Like most old stock cars, has already been rebodied. This is like the warbird argument. There are so few that the only choice you have is to rebuild what is left. In the race car arena, an acceptable basis for a restoration is the center frame area and four suspension points.
Isn't that the truth, and then sometimes you have to decide which sheet metal gets hung on the skeleton and after that which livery. Drag cars are often the same thing. Probably most race cars.
Quote from: Ghoste on December 06, 2014, 02:22:05 PM
Isn't that the truth, and then sometimes you have to decide which sheet metal gets hung on the skeleton and after that which livery. Drag cars are often the same thing. Probably most race cars.
Drag cars have a lot better chance of surviving though. :2thumbs:
But they are often so reskinned and recaged and re-engined and re-suspensioned (its a word) (I think) that my point was "which version do you choose to restore it as?".
Quote from: Ghoste on December 06, 2014, 06:44:50 PM
But they are often so reskinned and recaged and re-engined and re-suspensioned (its a word) (I think) that my point was "which version do you choose to restore it as?".
You often have to choose which moment in time you want to represent.
Totally and what a decision for the guys doing it. An extreme example but if you had the carcass would you do say the Sox and Martin E body as the 70 they pioneered the class with or the 71 they dominated it with? Both have validity but only one car serving the purpose.
NASCAR no different.
I hope you're joking. Otherwise, you really don't know anything about racing at all.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 05, 2014, 11:18:39 AM
Are you really trying say that these racer guys were putting full Daytona bodies on 66/67 floorpans!
You cannot be SERIOUS!!! (Johnny McEnroe).
There comes a time when its out with the old and in with the NEW!
These guys were MAD, but they weren't CRAZY!!!
Who in their right mind would reshell a plodding 66/67 car?
If I knew I was gonna be running over the 200mph barrier in a Stock-bodied car it would have to 'State of the ART'.
Everything 'NEW' and uprated to the MAX!!!
Lets get real Folks.
We are not talking Dirt-track here, this is FULL-ON ballistic Missiles! :woohoo:
It took the Full backing and teamwork of Chryslers greatest minds to make RACE-DAYTONA'S!!! :patriot:
Not a Guy in a Chicken Shed with an Oxy-kit LOL. :slap:
The #78 car is bent/bowed/buckled, no-one in their right mind would or probably could repair it!
Where's JOHNNY?
NOPE, deadly SERIOUS!!!
Putting a nosecone on a rebodied 66/67/68 Charger doesn't make it a Daytona Racecar, capable of speeds of nearly 240mph!
The aerodynamics would have to be PERFECT along with the Chassis and suspension!
A short track stock-car is not the same thing at all!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I reckon the only way to settle this particular argument is with a picture. Does anyone have any pix taken at Nichels that shows multi year race cars being rebodied in one pic?
I think most Folks are missing the point here,
Its a UNIBODY not a KITCAR BODY!
These are not racecars with detachable skins.
They are built on a JIG from the Floorpan upwards, by Mother Mopar!.
You can't rebody a unibody with a full rollcage inside, its welded in to to pan and posts!
Thats a reskin with dubious connections to the underframe.
This was done so the non eligible Wingcars could be re-used.
It was the beginning of KITcars rolling chassis with detachable bodywork.
The #48 car is or was a Daytona or 1969 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!! :nana:
The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!
Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!! :slap:
Quote from: Aero426 on December 07, 2014, 12:30:05 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 06, 2014, 06:44:50 PM
But they are often so reskinned and recaged and re-engined and re-suspensioned (its a word) (I think) that my point was "which version do you choose to restore it as?".
You often have to choose which moment in time you want to represent.
Sometimes the date is the easiest thing to choose on a restoration... 3-24-70.
Who is the young lad standing between the 67 Charger and the 1969 DODGE CHARGER DAYTONA??? :scratchchin:
We need to speak to him so this can be settlled LOL!!! :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
Where's JOHNNY!!!
Quote from: 500Jon on December 07, 2014, 06:00:54 AM
The #48 car is was a Daytona or 69 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!! :nana:
The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!
Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!! :slap:
:oye:
Guess I will not be making an offer on the car as bidding was right about to what I was willing to offer, but never reached reserve.
One of these days I will get a Daytona.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 07, 2014, 06:00:54 AM
I think most Folks are missing the point here,
Its a UNIBODY not a KITCAR BODY!
These are not racecars with detachable skins.
They are built on a JIG from the Floorpan upwards, by Mother Mopar!.
You can't rebody a unibody with a full rollcage inside, its welded in to to pan and posts!
Thats a reskin with dubious connections to the underframe.
This was done so the non eligible Wingcars could be re-used.
It was the beginning of KITcars rolling chassis with detachable bodywork.
The #48 car is or was a Daytona or 1969 C500 built by MOPAR/CREATIVE.
YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE ITS GOT A CREATIVE WINDOW PLUG FITTED AS PER THE ROADCARS.
Not some crappy cobbled up VEGA window and tailgate!!! :nana:
The Article says a shining brand new racecar, not a bare bones primered Charger body!
Even worse that advert says CHARGER DAYTONA, SURELY THATS FRAUD, ITS A 68 BODY, with someones else's NOSECONE!!! :slap:
Don't really understand what you are trying to say here.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 07, 2014, 06:44:53 PM
Don't really understand what you are trying to say here.
(http://wordsalad.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1.jpg)
Quote from: 500Jon on December 07, 2014, 05:06:54 AM
NOPE, deadly SERIOUS!!!
Putting a nosecone on a rebodied 66/67/68 Charger doesn't make it a Daytona Racecar, capable of speeds of nearly 240mph!
The aerodynamics would have to be PERFECT along with the Chassis and suspension!
A short track stock-car is not the same thing at all!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I know a lot about racing both drag and circuit and unlike most I've done it!
I find your comments most offensive!!!
What raceteam did you work for???
How many Championships have you WON???
.
Jon, I'm not going to doubt your current racing credentials, and I hope you're posts haven't been sarcasm simply to elicit strong responses. In case you're actually being serious, you need to recognize that racing today is a far cry from the late 1960s. Just pick up some old speed magazines from the late 1960's so you can appreciate the historic perspective. Look at the results from any major NASCAR race; once you get out of the top 5 in finishing orders, I doubt you will recognize any of the drivers' names. They were mostly local guys who upgraded their Saturday night shortrack car to try the Big Time (on a very limited budget). People
were trying to go 200+ MPH in cars that were built in chicken coops. Just because it doesn't sound safe today doesn't mean people wouldn't try it then.
If you take a look at Richard Petty's record setting, state-of-the-art 1966 Plymouth, the roll cage would be considered substandard for a Saturday night street stocker today. Imagine what the cars qualifying in the back in the field looked like.
And, yes, uni-body cars were re-skinned frequently (at all levels of racing). Once the uni-body chassis was braced with the roll cage and internal bars, the body became just as much of an add-on as it is on a fiberglass late model body of today. Bodies got trashed on a regular basis (and aged out by NASCAR rule), but a good chassis took hundreds of hours to prepare. This made it much cheaper to keep re-fitting chassis (even unibody) with new bodies until the chassis was wrecked beyond repair or made obsolete by rule change.
I also couldn't tell if he was being serious or not - so I decided not to pile on..... especially on the Creative Industries part which I didn't get at all. :confused:
But for those wondering about reskinned Nascar bodies, I found this very good pictorial. The photo's on this website tell a lot about how the chassis and bodies were originally built, and rebuilt. I apologize if its a repeat.
http://www.mopardealer.com/petty3.htm
It is well documented that the drivers knew that the factory built Wingcars were ridiculously FAST!
Coupled with high banked tracks it was getting outta control.
'Fred in his shed' could not build state of the ART high speed racecars!
Most Folks are saying the Wingcars were year on year upgrades from the mid sixties!
This may well be true for the backend boys , but not the factory teams.
You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?
I refrain from calling them Daytona's now as it seems they never were.
Why are they referred to as Daytona's at all?
If they weren't modified be Creative on a 69 R/T shell then they are NOT and never will be Daytona's.
THEREFORE, ANYONE WHO BUYS A RACE DAYTONA IS IN FACT BEING CONNED!!! :scratchchin:
As this will be a matter of opinions, then I will no longer comment.
I am shocked that people aren't concerned that the advert says DODGE DAYTONA.
Which part is a Daytona??? ::)
From Allpar http://www.allpar.com/racing/200-mph-Daytona.html
At the time, a lot of the team owners had not even seen a Dodge Charger Daytona. The kit pieces were being fastened on Dodge Chargers to turn them into Dodge Charger Daytonas as the qualification for the race was going on! The appointed drivers had no familiarity with the smooth wind cheater characteristics of the new car at all.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
Why is there a denial of factory built 500 and Daytona racecar bodies?
Most Folks are saying the Wingcars were year on year upgrades from the mid sixties!
This may well be true for the backend boys , but not the factory teams.
You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?
Some were upgrades. And some were not. Many new cars were built in 1968 because of the updated chassis design. The majority of Daytonas had some prior identity as a 500 or conventional Charger before becoming a Daytona. If you were a factory team with a Charger 500, when the Daytona arrived, you did not receive another whole new car from Nichels Engineering. You received a kit of parts.
Technically this is what remains of an actual car raced as a 69 Dodge Daytona, and is still possible to rebuild it as such. I would hope anyone with the time and money to purchase a car like this would not be expecting to find an XX vin on it (or any Vin for that matter) and would be quite aware of the way stock cars were built, bodied and maintained in its era.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
Why is there a denial of factory built 500 and Daytona racecar bodies?
The race prepped "bodies" were not obtained from actual assembly line built (production) Dodge Chargers.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
You are saying that most Dodge Wingcars were 68 Charger bodies with flush back windows added BY THE TEAMS?
From what I understand, yes.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
Why are they referred to as Daytona's at all?
For the same reason that modern NASCARS have been called Taurus, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Fusion and Camry.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
If they weren't modified be Creative on a 69 R/T shell then they are NOT and never will be Daytona's.
Correct. They will never be (or have been) Dodge Daytona's.... They began life as Nascar Grand National race cars.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 08, 2014, 02:18:47 PM
THEREFORE, ANYONE WHO BUYS A RACE DAYTONA IS IN FACT BEING CONNED!!! :scratchchin:
If it has a verified race history, and proof it was track used as a grand national Daytona, nobody is being conned.
This makes me wonder though. The popular story on C500 production was 500 were built, with 106 sent off to race teams and 394 made available to the public. If so, what of those 106 C500s and what happened to them? Did they have XX vins on them? Were they converted to racecars, or stripped of their sheet metal and junked, or become street drivers for the team? If Nichels was the factory builder, I don't think he would want complete cars that he would have to strip.
Quote from: 5hunert on December 08, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
This makes me wonder though. The popular story on C500 production was 500 were built, with 106 sent off to race teams and 394 made available to the public. If so, what of those 106 C500s and what happened to them? Did they have XX vins on them? Were they converted to racecars, or stripped of their sheet metal and junked, or become street drivers for the team? If Nichels was the factory builder, I don't think he would want complete cars that he would have to strip.
'
The process of using complete cars as tear downs ended no later than sometime in 1966.
So what did happen to the 106 C500s? Were they an urban legend?
Quote from: 5hunert on December 08, 2014, 04:31:58 PM
So what did happen to the 106 C500s? Were they an urban legend?
As far as I know that number was based on actual shipping and VIN records. Apparently the Nascar homologation people didn't check records well. :D
The reason I've heard (...most likely accurate) for not hitting the number was because the 500 project was stifled by the Daytona project, and there was a very real deadline looming to get Daytona's completed and homologated as 1969 models.
Never heard of any 500's going straight from Chrysler or Creative to a race team. In fact, other than an alledged document which might prove more than 392 were built I've never heard of that extra 106 either. :shruggy:
Quote from: 5hunert on December 08, 2014, 04:31:58 PM
So what did happen to the 106 C500s? Were they an urban legend?
My opinion is they built and sold all 500. Govier has the list. I believe it to be true.
Quote from: TUFCAT on December 08, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: 5hunert on December 08, 2014, 04:31:58 PM
So what did happen to the 106 C500s? Were they an urban legend?
As far as I know that number was based on actual shipping and VIN records. Apparently the Nascar homologation people didn't check records well. :D
The reason I've heard (...most likely accurate) for not hitting the number was because the 500 project was stifled by the Daytona project, and there was a very real deadline looming to get Daytona's completed and homologated as 1969 models.
All the C500s had to be completed by 1/1/69. The Daytona project had not yet started.
Quote from: Aero426 on December 08, 2014, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: 5hunert on December 08, 2014, 04:31:58 PM
So what did happen to the 106 C500s? Were they an urban legend?
My opinion is they built and sold all 500. Govier has the list. I believe it to be true.
The list Govier has includes the selling Dealers of the 500s too.
Have you seen it Doug? If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world? Until I see it, I don't believe it.
:popcrn:
Quote from: Ghoste on December 09, 2014, 07:02:37 AM
Have you seen it Doug? If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world? Until I see it, I don't believe it.
No, I've never seen it in person. No, he is not going to share the list. But I have no reason to doubt him. If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.
For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced, the first one was not going to be made public either. Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing.
"Yah, but they only made 392 of them 'dere Charger 500 cars."
There is the telegram to Ford referencing a list of 500+ Charger 500's to be used to verify compliance. If the 392 number was any good, that means there is a one in five chance of spot checking for a car that did not exist.
I seem to recall that the 392 number came from a public relations response to a letter written to Chrysler. Who knows how the heck they came up with that answer?
I believe the survival rates on a 500 should mirror those of a Talladega or Spoiler II percentage wise. That would mean they are far lower than the wing cars (due to the odd factor of the wing car). If we go with the 392 number, I believe the survival rate on 500's becomes artificially inflated. I just don't think it's accurate.
(http://www.superbirdclub.com/files/c500Passino1.jpg)
The 392 number comes from a letter from Chrysler to Mike Russo, in 1973 or 74. I have another letter from the same person in Chrysler from around the same time period that states they made 548. I believe the number Galen quotes is 584.
What is the percentage of the ford cars that has survived Doug? If the number of 500's is 584 I can account for 50% of them.
Has Galen indicated why he refuses to share this information?
If we are making up numbers the its gotta be 547 or 572?
392 and 426 are OK, but 503 is Coolio too. :2thumbs:
What ever number turns up its gotta be a BIGBLOCK stroker motor combo at least!!! :scratchchin:
My internet provider gave me 437 and everyone thought that was my +62 thousanthts overbore Hemi!
No just a total fluke!!!
God moves in mysterious ways? :angelwing:
ps lets not talk about Galen please! :rotz:
Interesting discussion guys :2thumbs: It baffles me why someone at Chrysler would've said anything less than 500, (if true they did) given the homologation rules.
On another note, it seems that 392 number has taken root and become a doctrine. I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've seen this number published just about well, everywhere! Trust me, I'm not defending the number at all... :nono: just pointing out how sometimes bad information can be turned into historical fact :scratchchin:
Surely Creative must know how many 500's were made?
There must also be inventories for supplied cars and parts to them, from Mother Mopar!
What about invoices from Creative for the work DONE???
There must have been a crew of guys there who know the approximate figures.
It was 1968 not 1868, men were getting ready to land on the MOON!!!
Where has all the paperwork GONE??? :shruggy: :shruggy: :shruggy:
Its not a National secret and what does it matter now, anyways?
500Jon
Quote from: Ghoste on December 09, 2014, 09:56:47 AM
Has Galen indicated why he refuses to share this information?
He will share. It will cost the car owner a small fee. ;)
I have seen invoices from creative for work done on the Daytona's but not on the 500's. I will take a picture of the letter I have and post it when I get home.
As a kid the only number I ever heard in relation to the production of 500's was the 392 number. Doug, the letter you posted was from NASCAR to Ford. Has anyone ever contacted anyone in Nascar to see if they still have that list? By January of 69, not sure how many would have still been on lots. I know of a few that were already picked up from dealers in mid September of 68.
That isn't sharing, its profiteering. Yes his blessed right but he could also easily go semi public with this and at least put an end to the debate.
I support Galen but as Ghoste says....I can't see what putting out those C500 production numbers could hurt. :scratchchin: There's already a lot of production #'s in his white books. Speaking of white books many of them were just revised, so I bought a set last week to replace my old ones. I'll have to look that up...
Quote from: Aero426 on December 09, 2014, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 09, 2014, 07:02:37 AM
Have you seen it Doug? If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world? Until I see it, I don't believe it.
No, I've never seen it in person. No, he is not going to share the list. But I have no reason to doubt him. If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.
For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced, the first one was not going to be made public either. Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing.
who was secreting the daytona list and who shared the second copy? other than greed, there is no purpose served by withholding either list. a tiny fraction of these cars are still in the hands of an original owner, and the lists pre-date even that. it is not like this would affect anyone's privacy.
the same goes for press photos, factory documents, and the like. hoarding forty five year old information damn sure does not serve the future of the hobby. dave b nailed it a long time ago - none of us are getting any younger, and if the history is not shared, it will be rewritten after we are gone.
As with all National Secrets there is a Statute of limitations!
30 years, 50 years or if its a real bad secret 100 years!!! :popcrn:
Everyone is entitled to make a living, some like to profiteer!
We all know that Galen has several hemi C500's and wants to keep the number at 392!
What other reason could there BE??? :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
I vote for 392 LOL!
Galen please say its 392 if its more than 503 I will be heart broken............................... :nana:
Sorry Guys, OFF TOPIC!
Back to Race Daytona's!
TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?
If a car is built on an assembly line then it was something to start with.
(Probably) 68/69 or 70 Charger bodies were altered to make Race Daytona's.
The number 88 car was run at Dega 69 to qualify, against Mother Mopar wishes, as the PDA strike loomed.
It was the only real Factory built Daytona at the track, so all the others were clones?
What paperwork was needed to buy a Daytona KIT???
How were Folks getting 1970 Charger fenders, hoods, nosecones with headlight lids, Z-bars, latchtrays, windowplugs, rear glass-with stainless-trim, cut-down trunklids and long hinges, in 1969?
Oh yes, I nearly forgot 1969 Tailight panels and lower valance panel too!
Surely with just a few weeks to build a Racetona, it would be easier just to find a C500?
So all thats needed here is the Defintion that they were all RACETONA'S with the paperwork from Mother Mopar!
Not to be confused with RoadTona's with VIN'S!!! :2thumbs:
NUFF SAID methinks....................
If I understand you, and I'm having a helluva time, you are now agreeing that the Charger 500 race cars were updated into Daytonas? Because a while ago your position was that they didn't reskin these cars since they were unibodies and you seemed to imply that ready to go Daytonas went from Creative to the racers who then added rollbars and hit the track.
Err yes and no?
From what RaceFolks are saying is..............
There were 50 or so Race Chargers in 1968 which were slow at the Superspeedways.
Some or all were upgraded to Charger 500's as they were eligible for all tracks?
Then some of those were upgraded again to RaceTona's for SuperSpeedway duties.
Along the way some got wrecked!
So as the 68 bodies were easliy available, the raceteams spent hundreds of hours rebuilding them into Racetona's.
(Or did they just buy REAL C500's or Real Daytona's and convert them instead...NO)
What we are saying is.........no real C500's or Daytona's ever made it onto the racetracks?
None were ever converted from streetcars into racecars?
All Race-500's and RaceTona's are all 68 bodyshells???
Sorry Guys......I GET IT NOW....... :slap: :slap: :slap:
That's why there is a 68 body on this ex racecar???
Then most of the title is incorrect, 1969 426 HEMI (Dodge-Charger) DAYTONA
The only real 500 that was turned into a race car (that I know of) is Greg's #88 Daytona.
FANTASTIC NEWS!!!
THERE IS ONE RACE C500 LEFT AND IT SET THE 200.447 RECORD LAP FIRST!!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Maybe I will build a clone of the #88 instead lol! :scratchchin:
As long as Greg lets me, I don't want to upset anyone.
500Jon
ps I know that #48 was/is a 69 body as its there to see! :yesnod:
Quote from: 500Jon on December 10, 2014, 06:49:50 AM
Err yes and no?
From what RaceFolks are saying is..............
There were 50 or so Race Chargers in 1968 which were slow at the Superspeedways.
Some or all were upgraded to Charger 500's as they were eligible for all tracks?
Then some of those were upgraded again to RaceTona's for SuperSpeedway duties.
Along the way some got wrecked!
So as the 68 bodies were easliy available, the raceteams spent hundreds of hours rebuilding them into Racetona's.
(Or did they just buy REAL C500's or Real Daytona's and convert them instead...NO)
What we are saying is.........no real C500's or Daytona's ever made it onto the racetracks?
None were ever converted from streetcars into racecars?
All Race-500's and RaceTona's are all 68 bodyshells???
Sorry Guys......I GET IT NOW....... :slap: :slap: :slap:
That's why there is a 68 body on this ex racecar???
Then most of the title is incorrect, 1969 426 HEMI (Dodge-Charger) DAYTONA
That pretty much says it all. The only thing I would add was the choice of the 1968 body that it ended its racing career with was most likely coincidental. Something like: Billy Bubba trashes the body in a Saturday night 1/4 mile dirt track race. Zeek at Joe's Autowrecking gives him a good deal on the shell on a wrecked 68 charger sitting in the back row. Someone already got the rear bumper, but he's got a 71 charger two rows over that has the rear bumper, he'll throw that in. All Billy Bubba needs to do is cut the shell off with a torch and stick weld it on his race car after work that week and he's back in business to tear up the track again the next weekend. The next race Billy Bubba rear ends someone, and goes throws on a couple of '70 front fenders he had laying in the backyard.
Old race cars had no historical significance; they were just a means to go racin on the cheap.
Quote from: 500Jon on December 10, 2014, 06:09:42 AM
TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?
Cats
are nice... :wave: I changed it to blue. :D
Quote from: TUFCAT on December 10, 2014, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: 500Jon on December 10, 2014, 06:09:42 AM
TUFF CAT what's with the RED type, I thought cats were nice gentle creatures of the world?
Cats are nice... :wave: I changed it to blue. :D
Yes.....cats are soft, cute and cuddly.
They also contain fangs and claws. :yesnod:
Hey I love English people...I'm married to one. :yesnod: She's also gotten me declawed and neutered. :D
Quote from: held1823 on December 09, 2014, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on December 09, 2014, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: Ghoste on December 09, 2014, 07:02:37 AM
Have you seen it Doug? If you have, has he indicated he will ever share it with the world? Until I see it, I don't believe it.
No, I've never seen it in person. No, he is not going to share the list. But I have no reason to doubt him. If you have a 500, call Diane at GTS and they should be able to tell where it came from.
For the record, had the second copy of the Daytona ship list not surfaced, the first one was not going to be made public either. Info to owners was free with a VIN rubbing.
who was secreting the daytona list and who shared the second copy? other than greed, there is no purpose served by withholding either list. a tiny fraction of these cars are still in the hands of an original owner, and the lists pre-date even that. it is not like this would affect anyone's privacy.
the same goes for press photos, factory documents, and the like. hoarding forty five year old information damn sure does not serve the future of the hobby. dave b nailed it a long time ago - none of us are getting any younger, and if the history is not shared, it will be rewritten after we are gone.
Aww, you remember I had found the original list, back in the 80s! :2thumbs:
And I would give anyone all the info for free, if they provided me a pencil rubbing of the dashboard vin.
At the time, I thought that would weed out folks just looking for info to search for cars, that the owner didn't want known.
Hey, if a guy has a Daytona, and wants to stay off the grid, I respect that. Most original owners weren't that far from the selling dealer.
I believe I helped out about 80 guys back then, wanting shipping dates and dealer info! :cheers:
Okay so here are the two letters I was talking about.
Side note, Greg, have you seen the 500 shipment list? I just would like to see it. Give me an hour in a room with that list and I think I could memorize what I didn't already know.
I have never seen a list for the "500"... :rotz:
Quote from: odcics2 on December 10, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
Aww, you remember I had found the original list, back in the 80s! :2thumbs:
And I would give anyone all the info for free, if they provided me a pencil rubbing of the dashboard vin.
At the time, I thought that would weed out folks just looking for info to search for cars, that the owner didn't want known.
Hey, if a guy has a Daytona, and wants to stay off the grid, I respect that. Most original owners weren't that far from the selling dealer.
I believe I helped out about 80 guys back then, wanting shipping dates and dealer info! :cheers:
greg, i had no idea it was you but am not surprised to learn that it was. you won't recall it, but you, my dad, and i had chatted many years ago. you are correct that you are not a profiteer off of your extensive archives, but have you not sat on a lot of original stuff that could help secure an accurate history of these cars, both on and off the track? that's totally your prerogative but i sincerely hope that it does not all go for naught in the end.
as hard as he can be to follow at times, dave b is perhaps the only one i can think of that actively seeks to keep the aero history accurate. it's a damn shame that, with two clubs around for decades, there isn't a comprehensive database available to compare options and oddities about how the cars were equipped.
i am fine with original owners who wish to remain unknown. what are there, a dozen or so including my dad? these people don't need any document to know the history of their car. they also don't owe anyone the specifics about their car, but the quest for accurate knowledge goes further than that. the logic does escape me about how the ship lists identify owners, but i guess with enough effort someone might find someone who knew someone whose neighbor worked for one of the dealerships in 1969.
don't read this all as a slap at greg or anyone else (well, maybe one at the guru). it is simply a passion to hopefully see those who can make a difference, actually do so. i'm fifty years old, and very likely one of the young ones when it comes to fanatics of old. what good will it do us to take what we have learned to the grave with us?
Ernie, your 15 years older than me?
I think there is probably close to 20 or more original Daytona owners left that still have their cars. In,y one who bought a Hemi car.
If they were in a computer in 1972 and put in XX29, they could have gotten 392 cars. Maybe the rest were XS29 cars, like one of my Charger 500's. My other 500 is XX29. :Twocents: :2thumbs: :popcrn: :popcrn: Rick.
Quote from: 69_500 on December 10, 2014, 09:29:37 PM
Ernie, your 15 years older than me?
I think there is probably close to 20 or more original Daytona owners left that still have their cars. In,y one who bought a Hemi car.
i'm an tired old man, danny, old enough to remember seeing a brand new daytona pull up in front of my grandparents' house in September 1969.
that original owner hemi car is the prettiest one of them made, too.
I wonder how much money it would take to get Govier to just show the list? He'll never ever get all 392 (or however may are on there) car owners to pay him for confirmation their car is on his special double secret probation list.
In the past I was quite happy to pay Galen for helping me buy a Daytona.
He flatly refused to help me at any price!
25 years has rolled past and it still hurts me.
He ruined my dream and he slated my C500 as well, said it was a wreck?......... :flame:
I have run into him a few times at shows and he still makes me MAD!!! :RantExplode:
I have no intention of ever using his services, so please count me OUT!!! :poke:
My wife has strict instructions to crush my C500 on my demise!!! :angelwing:
She says if I don't get it finished soon, I will be inside it when it goes to the CRUSHER! :slap:
Off to the garage methinks? :smash: :hack: :buff: :paintingpink: :drive:
Quote from: 500Jon on December 11, 2014, 07:01:58 AM
In the past I was quite happy to pay Galen for helping me buy a Daytona.
He flatly refused to help me at any price!
25 years has rolled past and it still hurts me.
He ruined my dream and he slated my C500 as well, said it was a wreck?......... :flame:
I have run into him a few times at shows and he still makes me MAD!!! :RantExplode:
I have no intention of ever using his services, so please count me OUT!!! :poke:
My wife has strict instructions to crush my C500 on my demise!!! :angelwing:
She says if I don't get it finished soon, I will be inside it when it goes to the CRUSHER! :slap:
Off to the garage methinks? :smash: :hack: :buff: :paintingpink: :drive:
Funniest thing i have heard today! :lol:
5J.....I've heard a similar version of that story from Mrs. Tufcat who's from England. :smilie_help: :cryin: :oye: Apparently some Lasses just can't share our love for the automobile.... :'(
Ladies love cars, they have to be no longer than ten feet.
Look like a box, be painted bright PINK and the heater must work!!! :pity:
Is that why Mustangs sold so well??? :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
You are probably right, Iaccoca was adamant about the Mustang being a "secretary's car" right from the very start. ;)
Quote from: 500Jon on December 13, 2014, 05:58:52 AM
Ladies love cars, they have to be no longer than ten feet.
Look like a box, be painted bright PINK and the heater must work!!! :pity:
Is that why Mustangs sold so well??? :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
Hmmm, that explains my wife's thoughts on cars!!!
She had a Mustang II when I married her!
Quote from: held1823 on December 10, 2014, 09:00:28 PM
Quote from: odcics2 on December 10, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
Aww, you remember I had found the original list, back in the 80s! :2thumbs:
And I would give anyone all the info for free, if they provided me a pencil rubbing of the dashboard vin.
At the time, I thought that would weed out folks just looking for info to search for cars, that the owner didn't want known.
Hey, if a guy has a Daytona, and wants to stay off the grid, I respect that. Most original owners weren't that far from the selling dealer.
I believe I helped out about 80 guys back then, wanting shipping dates and dealer info! :cheers:
greg, i had no idea it was you but am not surprised to learn that it was. you won't recall it, but you, my dad, and i had chatted many years ago. you are correct that you are not a profiteer off of your extensive archives, but have you not sat on a lot of original stuff that could help secure an accurate history of these cars, both on and off the track? that's totally your prerogative but i sincerely hope that it does not all go for naught in the end.
don't read this all as a slap at greg or anyone else (well, maybe one at the guru). it is simply a passion to hopefully see those who can make a difference, actually do so. i'm fifty years old, and very likely one of the young ones when it comes to fanatics of old. what good will it do us to take what we have learned to the grave with us?
Ernie-
Surely you know about this: http://aerowarriors.com/ftkc.html
and this: http://aerowarriors.com/cda.html
and maybe this: http://aerowarriors.com/gswtt.html
and even this: http://aerowarriors.com/200mphrun.html
All these sources will give you enough reading material to keep you busy well into next year! :cheers:
Make sure these links get posted everyplace! Knowledge is a good thing.
Ken Noffsinger had to go back and watermark a lot of the photos I donated to the aerowarrior site because Ryan Owens was poaching them, putting a 'copyright cotton owens.com' on them and using them on that site... You can not 'copyright' a photo you did not take. Period.
Also had other guys poaching the photos and making copies for selling on ebay.
Quote from: odcics2 on December 13, 2014, 10:35:40 AM
Ken Noffsinger had to go back and watermark a lot of the photos I donated to the aerowarrior site because Ryan Owens was poaching them, putting a 'copyright cotton owens.com' on them and using them on that site... You can not 'copyright' a photo you did not take. Period.
Also had other guys poaching the photos and making copies for selling on ebay.
:flame: :brickwall:
Dear Greg and other Wingcar officianadoes.
It would take a lifetime for most Folks to catch up with all this Aero stuff.
Unfortunately a lot of time is wasted with mud flinging and back-biting which is bad for the HOBBY!
Some Folks have grown up around the Wingcars, the Drivers and the Builders.
For the rest of us its finding a good book or two and Interweb stuff, THAT's all we have.
Then you have to try and find time for the project car in the garage, the wife and kids and a crap job to pay the bills.
All I really, really want is ONE good C500 and Wingcar-book that is factual and correct.
With as many action pictures as possible with quotes from our Hero drivers!!! :rofl:
It can be a thousand pages long and as heavy as a flagstone and cost a weeks wages,
BUT JUST DO IT!!! :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
BEFORE ITS TOOO LATE!!! :2thumbs:
I was speaking to Robert Landy a while back and he was tearful when speaking about his Dad!
Guess what he said?..."All that wonderful knowledge collected over a lifetime is all gone now".
Happy Christmas to all AreoFolks and C500 owners, 2019 is coming round FAST!!! :bump:
OOPS off-TOPIC again!
Quote from: odcics2 on December 13, 2014, 10:35:40 AM
Ernie-
Surely you know about this: http://aerowarriors.com/ftkc.html
and this: http://aerowarriors.com/cda.html
and maybe this: http://aerowarriors.com/gswtt.html
and even this: http://aerowarriors.com/200mphrun.html
All these sources will give you enough reading material to keep you busy well into next year! :cheers:
Make sure these links get posted everyplace! Knowledge is a good thing.
Ken Noffsinger had to go back and watermark a lot of the photos I donated to the aerowarrior site because Ryan Owens was poaching them, putting a 'copyright cotton owens.com' on them and using them on that site... You can not 'copyright' a photo you did not take. Period.
Also had other guys poaching the photos and making copies for selling on ebay.
i have been well aware (for many, many years) of your contribution to the race side of the aero equation, but was not aware that you were the origin of the ship list. i think you might have taken my later comment the wrong way, when i said i was not surprised it was you that had the ship list. i was not meaning that with any thought to you not sharing it. i meant that it was a document that would fit well with the vast amount of archive race material that i knew you possessed, knowledge that i would not have if you did not shared a great deal of it. if i offended you, that was not my intent and i apologize it might have came across that way. my wing car passion simply leans more towards the street cars than the track versions. the ship list is a huge piece of a potential database to see how the street cars were similarly/differently equipped and eventually distributed.
as for the poachers and outright frauds, they unfortunately exist regardless of the subject matter. the web has made their agenda all the easier. it is a tragedy that the very medium that can help to guarantee an accurate history is the same medium that a few will use for personal gain. i guess it comes down to a choice about the good outweighing the bad. i will always argue that shared knowledge is power, and thus the only means to keep history from being rewritten. one need not look any further than a certain #6 show car, to see how the truth can be lost in the revisions.
I lean more towards race Daytonas, because , IMO they look better.
Ernie - no problem, we're good! :cheers:
Quote from: Ghoste on December 03, 2014, 07:02:48 AM
Depends on your definition. As a race car it was never sold as an XX29 car Daytona in the first place so in that sense NONE of it was ever a real Daytona. On the other hand, as a race vehicle its one of the ONLY real Daytonas. Of course as a race car it has also probably been skinned at some point as a number of other real cars.
Well said! I know that the August 73 Talladega race won by Dick brooks was in a chassis that was built in 64 as a Belvedere
Any ideas who bought the Hylton Daytona and where it went ?
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :shruggy:
Quote from: odcics2 on February 05, 2015, 11:05:27 AM
Any ideas who bought the Hylton Daytona and where it went ?
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :shruggy:
New buyer is out towards the east coast. He's looking for parts like a wing and the inside braces.
Quote from: Aero426 on February 05, 2015, 11:50:18 AM
Quote from: odcics2 on February 05, 2015, 11:05:27 AM
Any ideas who bought the Hylton Daytona and where it went ?
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: :shruggy:
New buyer is out towards the east coast. He's looking for parts like a wing and the inside braces.
I also need a wing and supports for the Bettenhausen Daytona... :Twocents:
(and a race front end. Found an original plug off a gold 500, or maybe a Daytona, that was scrapped out back in the day.)
:2thumbs:
You mean you're not going to restore it as an Aspen? :nana:
Quote from: Aero426 on February 06, 2015, 09:41:08 AM
You mean you're not going to restore it as an Aspen? :nana:
I did kick that around... I'd call it "Done, as is!"
Need a set of 5 slot wheels, too!!! :drool5:
I have a set of those...........And period Goodyear tires with the Red ink stamps on them for the Pocono race. can't get more detail than that.
Quote from: wingcar builder on February 07, 2015, 06:53:34 PM
I have a set of those...........And period Goodyear tires with the Red ink stamps on them for the Pocono race. can't get more detail than that.
Ahhh... Please post a photo or 2 of the wheels!
And the tires, too! :drool5:
And I heard you have a nice pair of these for me..... N70 date coded, too!
Hi Greg,
I heard after all the BAD press the guy sold the, ex 'Hylton' car,,,cheap @ $100,000.
Now I know I should have stuck with Drag Racing and I thought that was expensive LOL! :slap:
Quote from: 500Jon on February 08, 2015, 11:25:26 AM
Hi Greg,
I heard after all the BAD press the guy sold the, ex 'Hylton' car,,,cheap @ $100,000.
Now I know I should have stuck with Drag Racing and I thought that was expensive LOL! :slap:
100,000. ???? really??? :shruggy:
Quote from: odcics2 on February 08, 2015, 08:18:51 AM
Quote from: wingcar builder on February 07, 2015, 06:53:34 PM
I have a set of those...........And period Goodyear tires with the Red ink stamps on them for the Pocono race. can't get more detail than that.
Ahhh... Please post a photo or 2 of the wheels!
And the tires, too! :drool5:
And I heard you have a nice pair of these for me..... N70 date coded, too!
Photos of the 5 slotted wheels please! There are at least 3 versions, from what my research has turned up.
Not sure what i'm doing with them yet. they are buried in the back room amongst other stuff.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/wingcar_builder/IMG957436_zps89a663e4.jpg) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/wingcar_builder/media/IMG957436_zps89a663e4.jpg.html)
Quote from: wingcar builder on February 20, 2015, 01:46:50 PM
Not sure what i'm doing with them yet. they are buried in the back room amongst other stuff.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/wingcar_builder/IMG957436_zps89a663e4.jpg) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/wingcar_builder/media/IMG957436_zps89a663e4.jpg.html)
You could sell them to Greg for the #6 daytona
Any new info or updates ?? ?? :shruggy: :icon_smile_question: :popcrn: :popcrn:
I got a set of correct wheels for the Bettenhausen Daytona, if that's what you are asking about.
Is the car getting rebuilt an how,where,an when can it be seen.progress pixs or info links ?? :drool5: :popcrn:
Quote from: djcarguy on March 07, 2017, 08:05:35 AM
Is the car getting rebuilt an how,where,an when can it be seen.progress pixs or info links ?? :drool5: :popcrn:
Car should be the one in the background.