10 hours of charging nets you a range of 35 miles. Proof positive that the government should stay the hell out of the car business. ::)
GM sells just 281 Chevy Volts in February, Nissan only moves 67 Leafs *UPDATE — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/gm-sells-281-chevy-volts-february-nissan-67-leafs/)
Edit: I hear that they cost 40 grand to make and the sell them for $41K, which leaves a $1K profit margin.
.... and has thousands of people lined up preordered. Nissan and Chevy are both selling cars 6+ MONTHS in advance and delivering them in small handfuls to keep a close eye out for any first-run issues... and yet the press wants to print B.S. like this.
I'm somewhere around 18,000th in line for my leaf. I'm expecting delivery in August currently. Yet I still hear crap like "only 200 sold, obviously nobody wants them!" Damn, I wish!
Your response made me look up pre-orders for Volts and this was the first link that I found. The responses are interesting.
http://forums.motortrend.com/70/7846150/the-general-forum/chevy-volt-preorders-hits-50-000/index.html
:scratchchin: Why wouldn't you post this in the Chevy Volt thread in car section?.. :shruggy:
I don't know how the volt reservation system works, but I had to put up money for the leaf. You can say they're just "inquiries" if you want, but when you've got 20,000 people willing to put up $100 to wait for over a year for the *option* to buy a car, you can't really say there's no demand.
Quote from: defiance on March 07, 2011, 05:30:52 PM
I don't know how the volt reservation system works, but I had to put up money for the leaf. You can say they're just "inquiries" if you want, but when you've got 20,000 people willing to put up $100 to wait for over a year for the *option* to buy a car, you can't really say there's no demand.
Just as "turbo" was the big buzz in the late 80's, "green" is the in thing today and the green business is thriving. It costs a lot of money to be green and when you look at what goes into a battery powered car, the carbon footprint is much worse than a gas or diesel powered vehicle.
If economy is one's main concern, buying a diesel Jetta or Golf which gets around 40-45 mpg (cruising range of about 500 miles) with a price tag of $20-23K makes the Volt's 35 mile electric cruising range a joke.
Don't get me wrong, I think that the concept of an electric car is good, but battery technology is just not there at this time.
Well, the volt is going for a specific niche, and it fills that niche... eh, maybe not as well as it could. The Leaf I think does a much better job. First run, 8hr charge is 100mile range. Second run (2012 model) increases the charger to a 6.6k kh/w, giving the same 100 mile range with a 4hr charge. And at $25k, the cost differential with your comparison is made up in less than a year given an average user's 12,000 mile per year of driving.
The tech is there, the industry is just exploring what configuration people want. Some people want to retain the efficiency of electric and still have nearly unlimited range, so Chevy made a valiant effort to address that with the volt.
The leaf approaches it differently, maximizing efficiency but sacrificing the unlimited range. Truth is, it probably works better in most families, given that most families have 2 vehicles. In my case we'll have an efficient gas car and an electric, so we'll still have the other car for longer trips (which, honestly, we just about don't make at all... twice in the past year. Probably would be more cost effective to rent a car, but I don't want to :P )
"Just as "turbo" was the big buzz in the late 80's, "green" is the in thing today and the green business is thriving. It costs a lot of money to be green"
It Costs EVERYONE a lot of Money to be Green regardless of weather you believe it, or are "into it" or not :icon_smile_angry:
As usual it's a good concept that's being poorly executed. Regarding the niche, at this point the lion's share of this niche is a gimmick that's no more practical than some guy with small man's complex driving a jacked H2. It sends the opposite message but exposes the same underlying insecurities. But finally, those 120-pound hippies have a reason drop $40k on a car and therefore procure bragging rights over their Prius-driving buddies while they barbecue tofu burgers at the hemp festival and watch their wives braid each other's arm pit hair.
One thing to note, before the new Volt leaves the lot you have to be sure it's properly outfitted. Not with undercoating, a full tank of gas electricity and floor mats. No, no. Stickers! I'm not sure if Volts will come standard with the Obama '08 sticker like the Subaru Outbacks did but you gotta have a minimum of 5 stickers on the back of it that pompously proclaim how much better you are than the average dolphin-killing, gas-guzzling, plastic bag-toting, land-owning Joe. And at least one of the minimum 5 should say something about how you're saving the Earth by driving a "green" car. Here is an example of what you should strive for (to hell with the paint):
(http://poietes.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/bumper-stickers-mania.jpg)
That nucklehead is either from Amherst, Brookline, or Cambridge.
I'm going to get a t-shirt for "earth day" that reads, "Proudly Destroying The Planet One Gallon Of Carbon Imbalanced Non Renewable Resource At A Time Since 1962".
Quote from: Ghoste on March 09, 2011, 07:49:56 AM
I'm going to get a t-shirt for "earth day" that reads, "Proudly Destroying The Planet One Gallon Of Carbon Imbalanced Non Renewable Resource At A Time Since 1962".
I know a guy that has a shirt that has trees and a lumberjack on the front and it reads "Earth First!" then on the back it says, "we'll log the other planets later"... :rofl: :rofl:
But finally, those 120-pound hippies have a reason drop $40k on a car and therefore procure bragging rights over their Prius-driving buddies while they barbecue tofu burgers at the hemp festival and watch their wives braid each other's arm pit hair.
[/quote]
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
It's all good, why lat facts stand in the way of insults? They're MUCH more fun! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Brock Samson on March 07, 2011, 05:22:45 PM
:scratchchin: Why wouldn't you post this in the Chevy Volt thread in car section?.. :shruggy:
Probably for the same reason he doesn't use the obituary thread. :lol:
As for electric cars, I would like to have one for local use, but I've had so many POS cordless drills over the years that it's left a bad taste with me for anything that's rechargeable.
Quote from: defiance on March 09, 2011, 10:01:41 AM
It's all good, why lat facts stand in the way of insults? They're MUCH more fun! :2thumbs:
I wasn't targeting you if that's what you thought. But you are correct, insults are much more fun than facts.
Quote from: Old Moparz on March 09, 2011, 10:01:55 AM
Quote from: Brock Samson on March 07, 2011, 05:22:45 PM
:scratchchin: Why wouldn't you post this in the Chevy Volt thread in car section?.. :shruggy:
Probably for the same reason he doesn't use the obituary thread. :lol:
I will when it's renamed the "won't be down for breakfast" thread. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: Richard Cranium on March 08, 2011, 01:44:18 PM
If economy is one's main concern, buying a diesel Jetta or Golf which gets around 40-45 mpg (cruising range of about 500 miles) with a price tag of $20-23K makes the Volt's 35 mile electric cruising range a joke.
My buddy, who is also a member of this board, has a 99 Jetta TDI 5 spd. He switched out the injectors and gets 60 mpg. The cost of the car was less than $5000.00. He also has a kit which filters out used cooking that he can run in the car when the price of diesel gets to high. Of course the car smells like elephant ears when he does this. ;)
200 a month for the Volt works out about the same as the annual 20,000 that looks to be predicted for the Leaf. It doesn't make much of a business case in the modern automotive world, hence my insistence that these things are really just about good press.
Quick update - been driving my leaf now for about 3 weeks. I can charge to 80% and make my daily commute 3x if I want, but that's not really necessary since I just plug the charger in when I'm done in the evening. 8yr warranty on everything, so I've no worry about battery life. At $26k or so, it's priced about $5k more than a similarly equipped versa, since there are a lot of upgrades included in the base model (and about the same as a similarly equipped altima, which is probably a better comparison since it's actually much roomier than a versa inside). It's actually pretty fun to drive; it takes off pretty impressively, and acceleration is pretty good below 40 - though you can watch the efficiency gauge bottom out when you really punch it. The center of gravity makes it handle pretty well even with the crappy LRR tires.
So far I've driven 600 miles - for about $13.
Incidentally, as far as the numbers sold go, the rate of production has steadily increased - May had 1142, and June is projected to pass 1500. And of course, they're all still sold months before they're produced; that'll probably continue to be the case through all of 2011. The new Smyrna,TN plant is projected to produce 2-3k per month when it comes online in 2012 (possibly 2013 due to some construction delays relating to the Tsunami) , putting the total production at up to 4k per month/48k cars per year.
That's more than the Challenger sold in 2010.
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/707/4389/39267194002_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/707/4389/39267194009_large.jpg)
Challenger or a Leaf? Hmmm, no brainer for this car guy.
Quote from: Ghoste on March 10, 2011, 07:46:16 AM
200 a month for the Volt works out about the same as the annual 20,000 that looks to be predicted for the Leaf. It doesn't make much of a business case in the modern automotive world, hence my insistence that these things are really just about good press.
I was not comparing the vehicles, I was comparing the sales figures, in reference to your statement quoted above. My point is, does the challenger not "make much of a business case in the modern automotive world.."? If it does, your point is provably false :)
*edit* - just found the leaf June final sales figures: 1,708 - that's a pace of 20,000/year, and already puts it selling better than every hybrid except the prius (which is going between 4,000 and 6,000 per month right now).
Volt unfortunately is not doing as well, they maxed out at a bit over 500 in June. Still selling as fast as they can make them, but seems like GM isn't pushing to get any real production going. So you may be right in GMs case.
Quote from: defiance on July 01, 2011, 01:46:25 PM
Quick update - been driving my leaf now for about 3 weeks. I can charge to 80% and make my daily commute 3x if I want, but that's not really necessary since I just plug the charger in when I'm done in the evening. 8yr warranty on everything, so I've no worry about battery life. At $26k or so, it's priced about $5k more than a similarly equipped versa, since there are a lot of upgrades included in the base model (and about the same as a similarly equipped altima, which is probably a better comparison since it's actually much roomier than a versa inside). It's actually pretty fun to drive; it takes off pretty impressively, and acceleration is pretty good below 40 - though you can watch the efficiency gauge bottom out when you really punch it. The center of gravity makes it handle pretty well even with the crappy LRR tires.
So far I've driven 600 miles - for about $13.
Incidentally, as far as the numbers sold go, the rate of production has steadily increased - May had 1142, and June is projected to pass 1500. And of course, they're all still sold months before they're produced; that'll probably continue to be the case through all of 2011. The new Smyrna,TN plant is projected to produce 2-3k per month when it comes online in 2012 (possibly 2013 due to some construction delays relating to the Tsunami) , putting the total production at up to 4k per month/48k cars per year.
That's more than the Challenger sold in 2010.
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/707/4389/39267194002_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/707/4389/39267194009_large.jpg)
:2thumbs:
Seen one leaf and two Volts here in oh so greener than thou... Bay Area so far, seems pretty low, but now that the Hybrids are being denied access to the car pool lanes (as of today) I expect that will increase pure electric sales. after all that would be for me a major selling point.
Quote from: defiance on July 01, 2011, 01:46:25 PM
At $26k or so, it's priced about $5k more than a similarly equipped versa, since there are a lot of upgrades included in the base model (and about the same as a similarly equipped altima, which is probably a better comparison since it's actually much roomier than a versa inside).
So far I've driven 600 miles - for about $13.
Did you install a charging dock? I'm assuming you have something as their site says it takes about 20 hours to get an 80% charge on 110v. If so, did you include that in the cost of the car? The Nissan web site says it's about $2,000 (50% of which may be eligible for a federal rebate). That would make it $7,000 more expensive than the Versa which, at today's gas prices (Ohio), is a bit more than 63,000 miles (average city/highway) before you'll break even on price. Of course, I get slightly lower mileage but my car was about $10,000 cheaper than what you paid which would move the break even point to just under 98,000 miles.
As I've mentioned before, it just won't work for me even if I really, really wanted one. According to the following, max range is 70 miles when driving on the highway in the summer. Best efficiency is at a constant 38 mph. I don't think I can drive 38. Ever!
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index
I drive 28 miles each way which would be cutting it close - as long as I skipped lunch! My daily driver car also has to serve for any long trips (that aren't car shows) so I'd either need to rent or have a second car any way. If I lived closer to work or in the city the numbers would make more sense - but I hate the city so that's not happening. I will move at some point though. Lots of people do fit that category though.
I have to say the black looks a million times better than the blue!
Troy
Quote from: Troy on July 01, 2011, 03:22:21 PM
Quote from: defiance on July 01, 2011, 01:46:25 PM
At $26k or so, it's priced about $5k more than a similarly equipped versa, since there are a lot of upgrades included in the base model (and about the same as a similarly equipped altima, which is probably a better comparison since it's actually much roomier than a versa inside).
So far I've driven 600 miles - for about $13.
Did you install a charging dock? I'm assuming you have something as their site says it takes about 20 hours to get an 80% charge on 110v. If so, did you include that in the cost of the car? The Nissan web site says it's about $2,000 (50% of which may be eligible for a federal rebate). That would make it $7,000 more expensive than the Versa which, at today's gas prices (Ohio), is a bit more than 63,000 miles (average city/highway) before you'll break even on price. Of course, I get slightly lower mileage but my car was about $10,000 cheaper than what you paid which would move the break even point to just under 98,000 miles.
As I've mentioned before, it just won't work for me even if I really, really wanted one. According to the following, max range is 70 miles when driving on the highway in the summer. Best efficiency is at a constant 38 mph. I don't think I can drive 38. Ever!
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index
I drive 28 miles each way which would be cutting it close - as long as I skipped lunch! My daily driver car also has to serve for any long trips (that aren't car shows) so I'd either need to rent or have a second car any way. If I lived closer to work or in the city the numbers would make more sense - but I hate the city so that's not happening. I will move at some point though. Lots of people do fit that category though.
I have to say the black looks a million times better than the blue!
Troy
Yes, I did - the charger cost me about $700, and the car MSRP after rebate is just a bit over $25k, so the $26k quote includes that. For comparison, a versa hatchback with auto, nav, bluetooth, ipod connection, wheel-mounted controls is going to cost $21k (and you still can't get some of the options like backup camera, for example) - to get a car with notably smaller interior space (which is why I say the altima, which is priced similarly, is a better comparison, but I understand why so many people want to compare it to the versa). Oh, also - there's a conversion for the stock 110v charger to allow it to plug into 110 or 220 (dryer outlet) that costs $250 and will handle a 7hr charge on 220 :) I was nervous about it when I got my charger, but now the company has a LOT of positive feedback in the nissan leaf forums, so I kinda wish I'd saved my money and gone that route too.
And yeah, I agree, for a lot of people, it just won't work. It works for me for several reasons:
-I had an absolute need for another vehicle anyway. The pickup is over 300k miles now (I think - my dad owned the truck before me, and he had the speedometer disabled for several years and it shows over 200k), and keeping it going any significant amount longer would've required a rebuild and probably a new head (the valves are pretty shot, and heads are priced similarly to a rebuild for the thing). Dropping an existing vehicle that is serviceable is simply not good economics period.
-Commute is 10 miles one way. I agree with the 70mile estimate. Most of my commute is interstate, and with the AC blowing and the radio going, driving 65-70-ish, 70 is about right. I have done different (slower) routes and could bring the mileage up to 90-ish without giving up A/C though. But yeah, 28 miles one way you could *make* it work, but you're definitely not a good fit.
-two-vehicle household. My wife has a gas car, and her commute is short, so if we need to go on a long trip, no problem. So if her car needs replacement, and electric won't be an option, since both our families live a long way away.
So don't think I disagree with you - these things are definitely NOT for everyone. My parents or my in-laws would be stupid to consider one. But for me, it fits with my lifestyle perfectly, and any of the other cars I would've bought instead would be similarly priced, so in my situation the cost reduction is just plain saved money :)
And I agree - I was buying it with the belief that it was actually pretty ugly, and I was pleasantly surprised how not-so-bad the black looks. They really need to stop advertizing that fugly blue :p
The Challenger was always about being a halo vehicle and I don't think anyone has ever pretended otherwise. The Leaf and the Volt however would have you believe they are selling like hotcakes when in fact they are nothing more than a halo for the greenies.
Quote from: Ghoste on July 01, 2011, 07:02:45 PM
The Challenger was always about being a halo vehicle and I don't think anyone has ever pretended otherwise. The Leaf and the Volt however would have you believe they are selling like hotcakes when in fact they are nothing more than a halo for the greenies.
And your point is? A halo is a good business case, whether appealing to the performance car guy or the efficiency car guy, as it improves the brand and makes some money doing it (Believe me, Chrysler's loving every dollar they get from Challenger buyers). Or, is your statement is that the Challenger "... doesn't make much of a business case in the modern automotive world, hence my insistence that these things are really just about good press"? If you use sales figures to justify that statement about the Leaf, it must apply to other cars with similar Sales figures, right? So now you're throwing the Challenger under the bus to make a negative point about this car?
The big question I have here is, why all the hate? If you don't like it, or if it doesn't work with your situation, don't buy it. So many people on this board throw words around like "greenies" and "hippies" (usually building up to "lefties" and "commies" or worse) and such, getting so crazy-mad about them not liking your gas-guzzling chargers - Don't you see how you're doing the same thing here? At the first mention of a "green" car, some people want to do anything they can to tear it down.
Drop the hypocrisy and try maybe giving these cars exactly the consideration like you'd like the "greenies" giving your chargers: respect the car for what it is, not grasping at every B.S. opportunity to trash on it.
/Believe it or not, coexistence can work. Just ask my garage :)
My point was that the no one has ever expected the Challenger to be a big seller. The electric car proponents on the other hand would have us believe that their choice of vehicle is taking over the country. The fact they coexist in your garage is great.
Since I wouldn't want to disappoint you, the green and leftist agenda are frequently aligned and they aren't typically about enjoying old cars or freedom of choice (to save you the trouble, I at no time have said you should not have the freedom of choosing one). I distrust them both. I don't hate the car nearly so much as the cheerleading and if that makes me a hypocrite, then so be it.
You keep referencing someone misleading you or claiming that electric cars are big sellers - yet since the month that both these cars launched, literally every month until this one there has been a wave of news articles about how "bad" the sales are (universally ignoring production numbers and waiting lists), and Chevy and Nissan have both made no huge claims about large quantities (Nissan, for example, projecting 4,000 per year, a respectable but still realistically small portion of even their sales). Who is it that's making these claims you reference? I've somehow missed them :)
The only thing I'll claim is that the sales numbers ARE representative of a great first step for electric vehicles. Widespread adoption? Heck no. But they represent getting enough of them out there that people can start seeing them on the road and seeing for themselves which complaints are valid and which are politically motivated B.S.
I understand your distrust for "leftist" and "green" movements. But opposition based solely or primarily on the fact that something is associated with a particular political spectrum only serves to further polarize the already far-too-wide rift in political ideologies in the United States. I think we can all agree that America would be better off if the right didn't react with automatic opposition to anything left and the left didn't react with automatic opposition to anything right. Evaluate ideas on their own merit, not that of whichever your favorite (or least-favorite) political football team sponsors :P
defiance, thanks for the update. As for the Volt, production is low but sales are high. The Volt is a winner in my book, to each their own. Just did my milelage on the Charger, 7.6 mpg. Take that tree huggers.
" The only thing I'll claim is that the sales numbers ARE representative of a great first step for electric vehicles. Widespread adoption? Heck no. But they represent getting enough of them out there that people can start seeing them on the road and seeing for themselves which complaints are valid and which are politically motivated B.S.
I understand your distrust for "leftist" and "green" movements. But opposition based solely or primarily on the fact that something is associated with a particular political spectrum only serves to further polarize the already far-too-wide rift in political ideologies in the United States. I think we can all agree that America would be better off if the right didn't react with automatic opposition to anything left and the left didn't react with automatic opposition to anything right. Evaluate ideas on their own merit, not that of whichever your favorite (or least-favorite) political football team sponsors "
:iagree: :patriot:
I'm with the destroying the earth one gallon at a time crowd, I pay a "Gross Polluter" levy on my registration renewal so....
... Not that green isn't a bad idea or concept, but green cars aren't as green as they are portrayed. Still takes coal to make electricity, plus the life span of electric/hybrid cars is fairly short and the expense of replacement batteries.
I wonder how many Prius' will be on the road in 42 years and how many enthusiasts will restore them like our chargers?
Thank f**k they don't sell that gay shit in Australia... yet... Prius' are bad enough :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: 440 on July 02, 2011, 08:56:05 AM
I'm with the destroying the earth one gallon at a time crowd, I pay a "Gross Polluter" levy on my registration renewal so....
... Not that green isn't a bad idea or concept, but green cars aren't as green as they are portrayed. Still takes coal to make electricity, plus the life span of electric/hybrid cars is fairly short and the expense of replacement batteries.
I wonder how many Prius' will be on the road in 42 years and how many enthusiasts will restore them like our chargers?
Yeah but we have plenty of coal in America so we dont have to buy oil from people that want us dead.
QuoteThank f**k they don't sell that gay shit in Australia... yet... Prius' are bad enough icon_smile_big
Thanks to Americans like Defiance there is more gas for my barges.
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 02, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
Thanks to Americans like Defiance there is more gas for my barges.
Exactly!! :D Seriously, you guys should be ALL about electric adoption :)
Quote from: Laxy on July 02, 2011, 09:39:34 AM
Thank f**k they don't sell that gay shit in Australia... yet... Prius' are bad enough :icon_smile_big:
Well... Ok, so I haven't had it for THAT long, about 3 weeks... But so far the car has not donned heels, makeup, or tried to have relations with me. Heck, leather isn't even an option!!
I'll let you know if I ever catch it staring at my arse. (you know, I am losing weight...)
Quote from: 440 on July 02, 2011, 08:56:05 AM
... Not that green isn't a bad idea or concept, but green cars aren't as green as they are portrayed. Still takes coal to make electricity, plus the life span of electric/hybrid cars is fairly short and the expense of replacement batteries.
Electricity can be generated in many ways, not just from fossil fuels. It's the most common energy format we use, can be transmitted over distances easily, etc. There are several reasons why electric vehicles make sense in the long run. I suspect the reason it's the format of choice is because as generation methods change the only thing that needs to be overhauled is the generation source not the entire fleet such as our situation now. (older systems continue through their lifetime new ones are brought online.)
Quote from: 1969chargerrtse on July 02, 2011, 08:30:32 AM
Quote from: defiance on July 02, 2011, 12:47:31 AM
I understand your distrust for "leftist" and "green" movements. But opposition based solely or primarily on the fact that something is associated with a particular political spectrum only serves to further polarize the already far-too-wide rift in political ideologies in the United States. I think we can all agree that America would be better off if the right didn't react with automatic opposition to anything left and the left didn't react with automatic opposition to anything right. Evaluate ideas on their own merit, not that of whichever your favorite (or least-favorite) political football team sponsors :P
:iagree: :patriot:
Well put! :2thumbs:
Quote from: defiance on July 02, 2011, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: Laxy on July 02, 2011, 09:39:34 AM
Thank f**k they don't sell that gay shit in Australia... yet... Prius' are bad enough :icon_smile_big:
Well... Ok, so I haven't had it for THAT long, about 3 weeks... But so far the car has not donned heels, makeup, or tried to arse-f**k me. Heck, leather isn't even an option!!
I'll let you know if I ever catch it staring at my arse. (you know, I am losing weight...)
defiance that was funny as hell...... :smilielol: :lol: :lol:
Maybe but I think it mightve crossed the line... I'm editing it. Sorry if I offended anyone.
LOL, well just keep an eye on it or it might catch you off guard one night when you 'plug it in' :rofl:
Quote from: Laxy on July 05, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
LOL, well just keep an eye on it or it might catch you off guard one night when you 'plug it in' :rofl:
I think he's getting a charge out of these comments. :rofl: :slap:
I suppose for me it boils down to discrimination. When you buy the Volt, Uncle Sam give you a check for 8K. I understand that it helps with jobs and the economy but shouldn't those of us in Charger restoration get some subsidy? Think of all those jobs at places that supply our parts and do the odd things we can't. It just isn't fair. ;)
Subsidies work out WAY in favor of gas-guzzlers. EV subsidies are nothing in comparison to Oil subsidies. $36.5B in 2010, which MIGHT get reduced to around $32B moving forward - compared to an EV subsidy that IF GM & Nissan both hit 20k per year will be just over 1/4 of a billion, and will be expiring in 2013.
Having said that, I fully support removing gas pump taxes and replacing them with vehicle mileage taxes or some other method... Us EV guys have to pay our fair share for the roads.
Interesting article i saw in the paper today.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=interactive-plug-in-hybrids
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=interactive-plug-in-hybrids
Yep, as has been stated many times before (at least a few times in this thread), the immediate environmental impact is negligible. However, the economic (about 10% the fuel cost), political (sourcing that power from the US, not middle east), and flexibility (easier to change a power plant to a cleaner source of energy than to change transportation infrastructure) reasons still justify the shift, though.
For that matter, inexpensive consumer-level Solar would make that whole thing irrelevant, and they're actually approaching economical levels. A couple of manufacturers (ie first solar and another one that I can't remember the name) are now producing thin-film cells that have market costs in the $1/w range, which at average consumer electricity rates could break even in 5 years (and produce for around 25). Unfortunately they're only selling to corporate customers now (several solar power plants in Europe are using them). But just to put some numbers to that, a 10kw system (cost of around $10,000 if the first solar projections are right - right now they're in the $20k range) would produce about 1500kw/h per month in most of the U.S. At an average price of $0.10 per kw/h, that's $150/month in electricity produced (avoided or sold back to the grid). That passes $10,000 in just under 6 years. And pollution produced in the process is extremely minimal: (same source as your article, actually :) ) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=solar-cells-prove-cleaner-way-to-produce-power
If I could get a 10kw system with a 20yr warranty for 10k$, I'd buy it right now. Green environmental system is nice, but more green in my pocket is better :D
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 02, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
QuoteThank f**k they don't sell that gay shit in Australia... yet... Prius' are bad enough icon_smile_big
Thanks to Americans like Defiance there is more gas for my barges.
:nana: :nana: :nana:
I have 3 cars that plug-in.
2 440's and an F350 with factory block heaters.
I am guessing I don't qualify for any rebates.
One is F8 - That's green......... :lol:
To each their own. :cheers:
And the technology rolls on...
http://news.yahoo.com/nissan-works-recharging-leaf-solar-power-043437777.html
In about 15 years I might have to buy one. :D
Troy
My problem with electric vehicles is that all you are doing, unless you charge using an renewable energy source (solar, wind, etc...) is outsourcing your pollution to what may be a fossil fuel burning plan nearby. Throw in losses through the transmission lines and the fact that the scrubbers on said plant may not be the greatest and where are you? :Twocents:
On the other hand, I understand that there may be an advantage to the grid to have a bunch of little portable battery packs on it in the form of electric cars. They can store power in our cars overnight allowing them to make energy during the night, which is typically a low load time for the plants, then take it back out during the day when it is high load...but I don't know how they would manage that practically. Would you have to tell them that they could pull out x% leaving you enough for your planned daily outings? Interesting concept though. :think:
From the Leaf's perspective it's profile is quite attractive. I wouldn't mind having one of our vehicles be all electric with a 100 mile range if the price tag is only $26K. The thing is pretty ugly though. :eek2:
Quote from: defiance on March 08, 2011, 04:07:04 PM
And at $25k, the cost differential with your comparison is made up in less than a year given an average user's 12,000 mile per year of driving.
Did you include your power bill in that math? You can't recharge it for free. :-\
i wonder with people struggling with the cost of their power bill how will this affect electric car sales?
I broke down the details of the math a few times in this thread, but short answer is yes - Generally speaking, at US average electricity costs and US average gas costs, you end up paying about 10-20% as much per mile.
And to the "outsourcing the pollution" thing - that's right, and has been agreed several times in the thread. But that puts 80% of the whole supply chain - and the money related to it - in the U.S. Having said that, electricity can be produced a LOT cleaner than it is right now in the US, and we're moving steadily in that direction.. New gas-burning cars are about as emission-controlled as you can get and still be burning gas.
But personally, reducing oil imports and the associated money drain, as well as the simple economic reasons, are plenty for me without the pollution improvements.
600 miles for $13? Very impressive. So 46 miles per dollar x 3.60 (roughly) per gallon = 166 miles per gallon.
From Scientific American
When you compare battery to gasoline power, electricity wins hands down. A 2007 study by the non-profit Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculated that powering a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) would cost the equivalent of roughly 75 cents per gallon of gasoline—a price not seen at the pump for 30 years.
The calculation was made using an average cost of electricity of 8.5 cents per kilowatt hour and the estimated distance the car would travel on one charge, versus a car that gets 25 miles per gallon and is powered by $3 per gallon gasoline. Change any of those variables and the relative costs change.
I don't disagree that the electric car is the answer. I am just concerned about the impact of using fossil fuels for a bridge to cleaner energy without proper oversight...as if the government has ever gotten THAT right (i.e. tBME in gasoline...ethanol in gas...etc...). Exxon Mobil is saying we have a huge supply of natural gas we could use, however I watched "Gas Land" about how fracking the ground to release the gas is contaminating ground water (with proprietary drilling slurries containing all kinds of crap) and releasing natural gas into peoples wells and it was pretty scary stuff. FYI, I have a BS in Chemisrty and MS in Analytical Chemistry and over 22 years of experience in the pharma industry.
http://www.gas2electricity.com/
While it may take some time for you guys to either embrace or debunk... :icon_smile_wink: but could this be to Voltage what french fri oil is to diesels?.. :shruggy:
Quote from: defiance on July 07, 2011, 09:54:49 AM
Subsidies work out WAY in favor of gas-guzzlers.
Yeah, You should see the check they send me everytime I fill up my Suburban. ::)
Exxon will make its profit one way or another. If they don't get it from the government, they'll just charge you more at the pump. So yes, every time you fill up your suburban, you might as well be getting a check.
And that's fine, my point is simply that it's not discriminatory; both systems are subsidized, just in slightly different ways.
64dartgt, I agree - it's still far from an optimal solution. But having said that, it's a much more flexible solution. We can change energy sources of power plants one by one as new - or environmentally superior - energy sources are made economical and/or old sources are improved; a fuel-driven infrastructure will always be locked into that fuel only. To me, it just makes more sense to keep that flexibility by running the transportation system on energy rather than fuel, so the infrastructure is independent of the energy source.
Brock - that site sets off my 'fishy-o-meter' :) but I don't see any details about what they're doing (the videos seem to be about independent guys doing one-off conversions), so I have no idea.
I read an article where there are outfits that will lease you solar panels for your house as long is it is a good location. This is a really viable idea, as the initial investment will prevent most homeowners from solar. You make less because of the lease, but if you have a good location (as I believe I do), then it could be an idea that really makes solar grow significantly. Now that will make electric cars cheap to run.
The other thing I can't believe is why every electric car doesn't have a roof full of solar panels. Most peoples cars sit out in the sun all day while they are at work and the flat surfaces of the hood and roof are ideal for solar cell. Might as well get some free fuel!
Instead of plugging into a charging station, I think the effort should be made to where an electric car is able to charge itself back up while you drive it. It would definitely eliminate the part of the greenie-gaspigger argument of what fuels, where they come from, & how much are used to produce the power to charge it. I can't find a decent article, but there are a few forums & sites that are saying that Nissan is working on this self charging system for the Leaf.
As a side note regarding the Volt, my wife & I saw one on the lot yesterday at the Chebbie dealership & stopped to look at it. Even with a rebate, at $44k you don't seem to get much for your dollar. It's not a terrible car, but it sure isn't a $44k car either. The salesperson was really talking bad about the Leaf saying you'd be left stranded if you're out of power. Somewhat true, but not really a valid argument if you pay attention to the charge like you do a gas gauge.
Quote from: Old Moparz on July 17, 2011, 10:32:53 AM
Instead of plugging into a charging station, I think the effort should be made to where an electric car is able to charge itself back up while you drive it. It would definitely eliminate the part of the greenie-gaspigger argument of what fuels, where they come from, & how much are used to produce the power to charge it. I can't find a decent article, but there are a few forums & sites that are saying that Nissan is working on this self charging system for the Leaf.
As a side note regarding the Volt, my wife & I saw one on the lot yesterday at the Chebbie dealership & stopped to look at it. Even with a rebate, at $44k you don't seem to get much for your dollar. It's not a terrible car, but it sure isn't a $44k car either. The salesperson was really talking bad about the Leaf saying you'd be left stranded if you're out of power. Somewhat true, but not really a valid argument if you pay attention to the charge like you do a gas gauge.
The rebate is after the 44k. The car should be selling for about 37k. All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much? The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one. I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time? Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either. Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway. I look forward to it.
Quote from: 1969chargerrtse on July 17, 2011, 11:38:30 AM
The rebate is after the 44k. The car should be selling for about 37k. All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much? The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one. I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time? Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either. Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway. I look forward to it.
I phrased that sentence wrong about the $44k & the rebate, but even at $37k I'm not crazy about it. It comes down to value per dollar & what you get for your money. It's not unlike the truck I have that was cheaper as a leftover than a 2 year old truck with 30,000 miles. I just can't justify spending more on something that is basic transportation or a utility vehicle.
The leaf is ugly, but then most of the small economy cars from all the car companies are ugly. That's why I have the old cars to play around with. I like their look, the performance, & don't care what the MPG is. I'm not the least bit "anti-electric" or afraid of change, I just dislike the pricing of the Volt & similar cars.
My concern with electric cars (other than the limits of current technology) will be the cost of power in the future. New scrubber requirements for coal-fired plants have just kicked in...that will raise rates. The government is already laying the ground work for Cap and Tax by requiring companies to inventory and report all emissions. If C&T is fully implemented who knows what the price of a kilowatt will be! What else will come down the pike for carbon-based energy? Nuclear, the only realistic solution, is back in the toilet due to the Japan tsunami. Seems like the environmentalists are promoting the electric car on one hand and inadvertently killing them by forcing carbon regulations on power plant on the other....driving up electricity costs. What a surprise! :shruggy:
True, but on the other hand, if it goes up much, then home solar becomes viable. Costs there have gone down a lot.
I looked at the company that does the solar leasing - that's one heck of a good deal. In my case it would've been about the same per month as my electric bill savings at current prices, so not a big economic improvement, but I'd never have to worry about increased electricity costs, and I'd know the power was clean - pretty good deal for no increase in cost, IMO! :)
Unfortunately they're not available here, the company only works in 4-5 states. Mostly west coast and texas if I remember correctly.
Quote from: Old Moparz on July 17, 2011, 12:12:25 PM
Quote from: 1969chargerrtse on July 17, 2011, 11:38:30 AM
The rebate is after the 44k. The car should be selling for about 37k. All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much? The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one. I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time? Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either. Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway. I look forward to it.
I phrased that sentence wrong about the $44k & the rebate, but even at $37k I'm not crazy about it. It comes down to value per dollar & what you get for your money. It's not unlike the truck I have that was cheaper as a leftover than a 2 year old truck with 30,000 miles. I just can't justify spending more on something that is basic transportation or a utility vehicle.
The leaf is ugly, but then most of the small economy cars from all the car companies are ugly. That's why I have the old cars to play around with. I like their look, the performance, & don't care what the MPG is. I'm not the least bit "anti-electric" or afraid of change, I just dislike the pricing of the Volt & similar cars.
It's important to keep in mind this is brand spanking new technology for our times. Look how far the gas engine has come in it's first 100 years? Give the thing and the technology time to grow please. It's all good.
From this will come hydrogen cars, though they are out there but more main stream. As long as it pulls us away from buying oil from people that want me dead, I'm in. :2thumbs:
P.S If you want to be impressed, take it for a ride. Peeking in the side window won't do it. It's all about the type of drive the car gives. How it handles, stops, accelerates etc... for what it is. It always gets an impressive review.
Keep in mid your doing it for about a 7th of the cost of gas fuel.
I guess it is time for me to chime in now. Down here in SE Texas, it is not unusual to go for a 100 mile drive just to see someone across town and back home! A pure-electric car is just not feasible here as they just do not have the range we need. At least, not yet.
Also, you can be sure the Government will figure out a way to make it as expensive as a gas vehicle to drive as soon as enough cars are on the road to make even a small dent in the car population. How else are they going to pay for building all the roads and repairing the old ones unless they make you pay for it in some sort of a tax like the gas tax of today? Electric cars are a novelty now but, you can be assured, they will not be for long if they decrease the gas tax much at all.
Personally, I am waiting for the hydrogen cell cars to be economically feasible rather than purchase an electric car now. The government will figure out a way to get my pound of flesh in taxes from that technology too, I would bet on it.
Very true, current technology is not suited for the majority of us in the rural West. However, if all the poor souls that have to live in big cities such as Chicago, New York, etc. can use them for their urban commute, than go for it.
Hello troutstreamnm,
I wish I lived in the rural west. I live in North Houston, the 4th largest city in the country, population wise, and I see plenty of hybrids down here. I guess they have their place in the commuting world but ........ I just would not own one for a myriad of reasons.
Until fuel cell technology becomes more economically feasible or their is a major breakthrough in battery technology, rural America will just have to wait. Just not near enough range in an electric vehicle.
Hybrids are a different animal, they have range and economy all in one. I know because my wife drives a first gen Toyota Prius. It's a great "grocery getter" that get 45 mpg in town. Just a bit small and not really designed for long distance driving. Hybrids are still way ahead of the all electric car at this point in time IMHO.
Quote from: troutstreamnm on July 18, 2011, 10:23:51 PM
Hybrids are a different animal, they have range and economy all in one. I know because my wife drives a first gen Toyota Prius. It's a great "grocery getter" that get 45 mpg in town. Just a bit small and not really designed for long distance driving. Hybrids are still way ahead of the all electric car at this point in time IMHO.
The great point about Hybrids to me is not 45mpg, but sitting in traffic not burning fuel.
What the government should be investing in and mandating is better transmission technology. All the car companies could put an eight speed transmission in their cards within five years doubling the MPG, but they are allowed to put four speeds behind their 4 cyl and keep the five and six speeds for their 6 and 8 cyl cars.
Anyone want to know what a Prius will do for MPG with an eight speed automatic? I would love to put an OD unit in my Charger. I looked into it when I had the tranny rebuilt but it just wasn't affordable for this budget build. Maybe we can get a tax break through congress and get a rebate for putting Kiesler's in all our Mopars :popcrn:
Quote from: 64dartgt on July 19, 2011, 07:27:34 AM
What the government should be investing in and mandating is better transmission technology. All the car companies could put an eight speed transmission in their cards within five years doubling the MPG, but they are allowed to put four speeds behind their 4 cyl and keep the five and six speeds for their 6 and 8 cyl cars.
Anyone want to know what a Prius will do for MPG with an eight speed automatic? I would love to put an OD unit in my Charger. I looked into it when I had the tranny rebuilt but it just wasn't affordable for this budget build. Maybe we can get a tax break through congress and get a rebate for putting Kiesler's in all our Mopars :popcrn:
Your Charger has the torque and power to move 8 speeds, a Prius does not. I'm sure most cars are geared to the max for speed/ economy.
Your Charger has the torque and power to move 8 speeds, a Prius does not. I'm sure most cars are geared to the max for speed/ economy.
[/quote]
The greater number of gears allows you the flexibility to obtain max speed and economy, neither of which is often possible with only 3-4 gears. The max rpm of an engine is a constant (as built) as is the HP it will produce. The engine doesn't really "know" what gear ratio it is connected to. It is just an engine. Admittedly the engine can be designed to make more hp/torque at different RPM ranges.
A large portion of cars being produced now have continuously variable transmissions as a standard or optional equipment. It doesn't help that much, though. An example is a versa - Without CVT, 24/32 --- with cvt, 28/34. So it helps, but nowhere near doubling efficiency. Still, it's nearly a 20% increase in city mileage, so your point still stands, just to a bit lesser extent.
*zombie thread*
So I'm now 1 year into ownership of my leaf. 11,500 miles. ~$25 month average increase in electric bill. Not a single ounce of trouble.
I'm actually wrapping up an update on the charger (rebuilt the ignition/injection system, turned it into sequential injection with coil-near-plug using LS2 coil packs). Started it up yesterday. I'll try to get it wrapped up so I can get them out together in the sun - figure those two side-by-side should make some nice pictures :smilielol:
Resto-mod electric conversion for the Charger anytime soon? It'll sound like this: vzeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
TWINS!
(http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/twins-movie-poster.jpg)
(In the DeVito/Schwarzenegger sorta way :D )
Still have some underhood work to do on the charger (track down some gremlins & new a/c hoses mostly), so hood's still off, but got it going again enough to pull it out of the garage, spray it off and do some pics.
(http://carphotos3.cardomain.com/images/0015/55/82/15835528_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos4.cardomain.com/images/0015/55/92/15835529_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos4.cardomain.com/images/0015/55/03/15835530_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/images/0015/55/13/15835531_large.jpg)
(http://carphotos3.cardomain.com/images/0015/55/23/15835532_large.jpg)