Tony's Daytona discussion

[TUFCAT]

I think any reproduction broadcast sheet is a fake broadcast sheet.  Period.  End of story.

Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as a "Novelty Item".

A successfully reproduced broadcast can be passed off as original to unsuspecting enthusiants as noted in this thread. This is why ECS should be held ultimately responsible for creating illegitimate copies of blue-chip automotive documentation.

Both of you guys are at fault for different reasons.  If these were never produced, Tony wouldn't have it in the first place. Just like counterfit money only a thief will try to pass it off as real.  But the counterfitter is always culpable

[rainbow4jd]

Well - well - well

What an interesting thread.   A pissing contest mixed in with a debate over who has the prettiest baby.

Might as well jump in, since i'm the newbie to all this and restoring my Superbird along the way (plus I been in the car business for 30 years so my perspective might be a bit different).  Here goes...

A) The guy with the money gets the right to decide what he's buying.   He's also got the responsibility to be educated about fakes and forgeries and all that stuff (or am I the only one who has cable TV and watches the auction/picker/restoration/storage/treasure stuff?)   Caveat Emptor applies.

B) The seller has a moral obligation (but not legal) to disclose what he knows about the history.  Generally, the only legal things required are the title and the mileage, and after that "IF it ain't in writing - it don't count" .  See Point A and "Caveat Emptor"  It's also why we have attorney's to sort these things out, instead of doing it on a message board.

C) Money and morality don't mix.  Where money is involved you're naive to be a moralist, and arrogant to think being a moralist makes you superior to the guy who isn't.  On the other hand, if you are a moralist - you've probably got more friends and less money, which might be the better of the deal.

D) Everyone else is entitled to an opinion, but its worth absolutely nothing - however, it makes for entertaining reading and probably can be used to start a few fist fights.

F) Everyone thinks their opinion is right.    See point "D"

G) Some think ONLY an original car should be viewed by OTHERS as most valuable i.e. "I still have the original air in the tires and I captured the first exhaust into a sealed jar when it was first started.  NYAH NYAH NYAH my dog's better than yours"

H) Some think that ONLY a restoration using ORIGINAL parts (but NOT original parts from a donor car) is OK.  And ONLY certain parts can be replaced, and "ONLY on a Sunday when there is a full moon at noon."

I) Anyone that makes reproduction parts is mildly a crook, anyone who makes reporduction paper is definitely a crook.  Unless you lost the paper for your car or someone stole it from you or maybe when you restored it 30 years ago no one really cared about that paper and its only the hobby industry that has now made it something of value, and if you would just like to have a reproduction made because it would be cool - then they ARE NOT a crook, but a valuable resource - unless you didn't need it on your car, so that makes the reproducer a crook and the guy who wants it reproduced a crook also.  (There.  Did I get it straight?)

J) It's OK to restore a painting that has been crusted with dirt and grim, and its more valuable restored, but if the person can't afford the restoration they think the painting is more valuable un-restored.  These points have nothing to do with anything unless someone owns a painting AND a wing car.  Then the ONLY restoration that is considered OK is one based on the same money YOU have to spend on YOUR restoration.  See point "D" on opinoins and fist fights.

K) Girls with fake boobs, dyed hair, false eyelashes, and capped teeth usually get more attention than those who don't.  That being said, the guy who is married to the supermodel's "ugly" sister thinks he married the "pretty one".  Beauty is in the eye of the owner.

L) Even if you have original paperwork, its meaningless unless you have an independent third party qualified appraiser provide insurable provenance.  OR its why you buy title insurance on your house.  Unfortunately, no one sells title insurance or provides provenance on hobby cars, so at best you can get an expert opinion that might be valued by the buyer - but I can guarantee you NO ONE is sueing Galen Govier for ever being "wrong", because all he's providing is his expert OPINION and not a GUARANTEE.

M) If you disagree with anything I said, see Point "F" and "D" above.

N) Have a nice day!

[ECS]

I think any reproduction broadcast sheet is a fake broadcast sheet.  Period.  End of story.

Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as a "Novelty Item".

A successfully reproduced broadcast can be passed off as "original" to unsuspecting enthusiants as noted in this thread. This is why ECS should be held ultimately responsible for creatingeating "illegitimate" copies of blue-chip automotive documentation.

Both of you guys are at fault for different reasons.  If these were never produced, Tony wouldn't have it in the first place. Just like counterfit money only a thief will try to pass it off as real.  But the counterfitter is always culpable.

Can you not understand plain english?  I am licensed by Chrysler to make items that people like you are not allowed to make.  A "counterfeiter" is not authorized to legally manufacture whatever they are counterfeiting.  Why do you think they are called a "counterfeiter"?! Do you blame a Car Manufacturer because they manufacture cars that are cloned or re-vin stamped by the crooks?  Please use that same logic to explain how it is Chevrolets fault when a chop shop takes an AVALANCHE and converts it (illegally) into an ESCALADE.  Please tell me you are not so ignorant to fault the people who do things legitimately and blame THEM when the shysters find a way to screw someone over!?

I make new VIN labels for the Collision Industry.  I am exclusively licensed by the major manufactures to provide this service to more than 55,000 Collision Shops across the Country.  At least 10 times a year we are faced with firms who find ways around the system and fraud the items we manufacture.  Would you like me to close our doors because a few crooks will AWAYS find ways to scam the Industry?  The Industry who Governs against these illegitimate practices doesn't hold us responsible!  You have to either be a Friend or relative of the real "crook" here. There is no way you can be naive enough to really believe your twisted rationale.    

[TUFCAT]

Can you not understand plain english?  I am licensed by Chrysler to make items that people like you are not allowed to make.  A "counterfeiter" is not authorized to legally manufacture whatever they are counterfeiting.  Why do you think they are called a "counterfeiter"?! Do you blame a Car Manufacturer because they manufacture cars that are cloned or re-vin stamped by the crooks?  Please use that same logic to explain how it is Chevrolets fault when a chop shop takes an AVALANCHE and converts it (illegally) into an ESCALADE.  Plead tell me you are not so ignorant to fault the people who do things legitimately and blame THEM when the shysters find a way to screw someone over!?

I make new VIN labels for the Collision Industry.  I am exclusively licensed by the major manufactures to provide this service to more than 55,000 Collision Shops across the Country.  At least 10 times a year we are faced with firms who find ways around the system and fraud the items we manufacture.  Would you like me to close our doors because a few crooks will AWAYS find ways to scam the Industry?  The Industry who Governs against these illegitimate practices doesn't hold us responsible!  You have to either be a Friend or relative of the real "crook" here. There is no way you can be naive enough to really believe your twisted rationale.    

Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as licensed product

Door Vin decals are something completely different.  When it comes to paper documents , you already admit to creating a "dream example" of the paper document that you alledge to be fake!

You recreated an "original looking" the broadcast sheet that looks like it was made during the assembly process of Tony's Daytona.

Tony say's its real....

Dave Walden say's its a "real fake"... created from using other broadcast sheets.

So don't hand me you "holier than thou bullshit". Please.  I'm also not so naive to believe your twisted rationale about the insurance industry on and on. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing for Tony.  You created the fake sheet for him which he later claimed to be original. You became a pissed off girl scout, called him out, and now the fun and games begin.

Please don't weave me into your web. You and Tony should be laying in bed together.  

[dyslexic teddybear]

I do NOT support banning something for what someone might do with it. It's a false argument currently used to push banning guns. As long as it is NOT violating any DMV title type law......it is within anyone's rights to print them.

Personally, I would prefer that they were never reproduced. But I do not think lack of availability alone would solve the problem of a car presented as something it is not.

Maybe the opposite is the best way......if a BS was easy to get......people would not trust one so much.

[rainbow4jd]

Dave - chill!

It's pretty juvenile to be in a pissing contest on a message board.

We get it.  Chrysler says its OK!   No one has to agree with you!  Even though I am sure plenty do - but it ain't a popularity contest!

If your business has been damaged, libeled or slandered - get an attorney!   If you want to spend every hour defending yourself on a message board - get a life!

Anyone that starts out by saying "I think"  - pretty much looses all credibility thereafter.  All it means is IF their broadcast sheet gets eaten by the dog - THEY AIN'T CALLING YOU FOR A NEW ONE!    It's just an OPINION!   Get over it!    It's a freakin' hobby - it ain't counterfeit currency!

(I sound like I am talking to my 13 year old daughter, here)

If someone is that caught up in whether the car is real, rebuilt, restored, recreated, reimagined, reheated, reconstituted, or rehydrated - they'll either spend the money or NOT to their own satisfaction when they want to buy one.  

There's many a time a fool and his money were parted - but it didn't stop the fool from grinning like an idiot and being happier than a pig in slop!  Far be it for me to rain on his parade.

[rainbow4jd]

Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as licensed product

Door Vin decals are something completely different.  When it come sto paper documents , you even admit to creating a "dream example" of the paper document that you alledge to be fake!

You recreated an "original looking" the broadcast sheet that looks like it was made during the assembly process of Tony's Daytona.

Tont say's its real.

You say its a "real fake"... created from using other broadcast sheets.

So don't hand me you "holier than thou bullshit". Please.  I'm also not naive to believe your twisted rationale about the insurance industry on and on. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing for Tony.  You created the fake sheet for him, and then he clamed it as original. You got pissed, called him out, and now the fun and game started.

Please don't weave me into your web. You and Tony should be laying in bed together. 

Tufcat - I bet that picture of you is a fake.  You probably aren't really that fat and hairy.

[TUFCAT]

Tufcat - I bet that picture of you is a fake.  You probably aren't really that fat and hairy.

Thanks but you're blowing my cover.  I'm a very handsome tabby with poised refexes and athletic figure, but have been known to cuddle on occasion

[TUFCAT]

By the way...I agree! 

Dave - chill!

It's pretty juvenile to be in a pissing contest on a message board.

We get it.  Chrysler says its OK!   No one has to agree with you!  Even though I am sure plenty do - but it ain't a popularity contest!

If your business has been damaged, libeled or slandered - get an attorney!   If you want to spend every hour defending yourself on a message board - get a life!

Anyone that starts out by saying "I think"  - pretty much looses all credibility thereafter.  All it means is IF their broadcast sheet gets eaten by the dog - THEY AIN'T CALLING YOU FOR A NEW ONE!    It's just an OPINION!   Get over it!    It's a freakin' hobby - it ain't counterfeit currency!

(I sound like I am talking to my 13 year old daughter, here)

If someone is that caught up in whether the car is real, rebuilt, restored, recreated, reimagined, reheated, reconstituted, or rehydrated - they'll either spend the money or NOT to their own satisfaction when they want to buy one.  

There's many a time a fool and his money were parted - but it didn't stop the fool from grinning like an idiot and being happier than a pig in slop!  Far be it for me to rain on his parade.

[rainbow4jd]

I do NOT support banning something for what someone might do with it. It's a false argument currently used to push banning guns. As long as it is NOT violating any DMV title type law......it is within anyone's rights to print them.

Personally, I would prefer that they were never reproduced. But I do not think lack of availability alone would solve the problem of a car presented as something it is not.

Maybe the opposite is the best way......if a BS was easy to get......people would not trust one so much.

The hobby has made them "important" - which in and of itself makes it a matter of personal opinion and not one based on any semblance of facts or even truth.   The only time a document has any importance is when it takes on a legal connotation as a matter of a contract or regulatory requirement.

If I rely on the documentation (besides the legal title) in deciding how much to pay you for a car - I better spell it out in a contract that we both sign.  Even then, I don't have any damages until I attempt to resell the car.  Then, I have to show HOW I was actually damaged - not speculatively damaged.

Fortunately, opinions that are not backed up by cash (on either side of this issue) aren't worth the paper or pixels they are written on.  There just good excuses to be contrary.

[ECS]

When it come sto paper documents

A build sheet is not a document.   Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose.  We don't make these for ANYONE any more.  You are all beating a dead horse.  I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges.  Our company is in compliance with the contractual obligations for the products we offer and have no culpability for what people choose to do with our products once they leave our premises.  If you don't approve of our products, don't contact us.  You don't want to be part of this "web" then don't be!  

People Like Mike and Tony will continue to buy & use our products (through a third party) while criticizing and slamming ECS.  They can't stand me but they will use my products any chance they get.  I handle things completely different than those who possess characteristics similar to that of a prostitute.  If I was dying of thirst in the dessert and one of them walked up and offered me water, I would die before I accepted (or used) anything from them.  For those who think I'm bothered about any of this, I find it an absolute riot.  Don't worry about how I spend my time.  Those who say "get a life" certainly find the time to read this garbage and even respond to it.  Hypocrisy seems to manifest itself that way.  Like I said, if you don't like what ECS does, don't call us or use anything we manufacture.  One thing is for sure, you ALL know the real story about the white car!

[TUFCAT]

A build sheet is not a document.   Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose.  We don't make these for ANYONE any more.

Seriously??  Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?

Since its no longer considered a document, rare vehicles no longer need this to prove authenticity. 

[JB400]

A build sheet is not a document.  

Seriously??  Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?

You know Tuffy, you make it fun to respond to your posts when you go back and change them

[ECS]

A build sheet is not a document.   Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose.  We don't make these for ANYONE any more.  You are all beating a dead horse.  I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges.

Seriously??  Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?

Because I can......  

[cdr]

the only way to document a 1968 is THE BUILD SHEET......

[rainbow4jd]

Dave I agree and understand what you say - the title is a "document" and the ONLY document that has any legal bearing.  Everything else is just a matter of a hobbyist's opinion.   They have applied perceived value to an otherwise innocuous document; so in your mind the issue is "theirs" not yours.  And I agree.   To each his own.

That being said, I have never done business with you - this is my first exposure to the fact that you might have stuff I eventually could need for my bird.   But you scare me.  I don't really expect a business owner to be in a message board war - its rather juvenile and I'm trying to say that in the most inoffensive way and as a professional business consultant to the automotive industry (its what I do for a living).   

I think you do your business a disservice by getting in the pissing contest over this.   If someone takes something you did and mis-represents it - its on them, not on you.   Unless their action is financially hurting your business, let it lay.   If it does hurt your business - sue them.   

If you had hired me to handle this... here is what I would have instructed you to say (and then told you to be quiet about it)....

"Based on the information provided by the owner of a vehicle, we provide reproduction documents of a specialty nature to the automotive hobbyist .  As with all matters relating to buying and selling of restored or collectable automobiles, a prospective buyer should rely on their own due diligence in determining which vehicle characteristics, features, and documents, are meaningful to them in determining a transactional value on the vehicle in question."

And if ever challenged on the reasons for operating such business by someone with a different opinion.

"We recognize the wide diversity of the automotive enthusiast community and strive to provide a valuable service for those seeking quality reproduction documents.  As with all matters relating to buying and selling of restored or collectable automobiles, a prospective buyer should rely on their own due diligence in determining which vehicle characteristics, features, and documents, are meaningful to them in determining a transactional value on the vehicle in question."


Don't bite the hand that feeds you - I just gave you some really good advice.  Be a professional, let others play around in the gutter.

[TUFCAT]

A build sheet is not a document.   Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose.  We don't make these for ANYONE any more.  You are all beating a dead horse.  I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges.

Seriously??  Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?

Because I can......  

[dyslexic teddybear]

We all should know what opinions are worth......

As for a BS......a real one is not an opinion, but is of a "blueprint" of how the car was built.

A fake one.....would be the opinion. What someone wants others to believe how the car was built.

Some of us, only want to use a BS as a historical tool to restore our cars.

Without the legal jargon.

[rainbow4jd]

We all should know what opinions are worth......

As for a BS......a real one is not an opinion, but is of a "blueprint" of how the car was built.

A fake one.....would be the opinion. What someone wants others to believe how the car was built.

Some of us, only want to use a BS as a historical tool to restore our cars.

Without the legal jargon.

I used blueprints to build my house.   I've also had architect look at a house and build plans from what he looked at.    In both cases, the plans show the floorplan of the house.  So for me its not an issue either way.   I just generally resent those who try to tell me HOW I should go about enjoying my hobby.  It's like the toy collectors who keep their toys in the original packages versus those who pitch the packages and actually play or display them.  It just depends on which side of the hobby you are on.

[dyslexic teddybear]

We agree totally on this part......I absolutely resent anyone telling me how to enjoy my hobby too. Or for that matter, how to build my house.

I enjoy the historical aspect of how these cars were designed and built. Their racing heritage, etc.

Some.....want drivers.

Some....want trailer queens.

Some.....do restorations for the love of the cars.

Some.....do it as an investment.

There's no right or wrong reason.....the more doing it for whatever reason....benefits all of us.



As for toys.....I like to play with mine. Even if it is a PIA to clean the melted rubber out of the wheel wells.

[resq302]

Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!       Although, it is a bitch to get off of the red paint, not so much with our black el camino!

[706pkvert]

What I am suggesting would allow people to have the best of both worlds. ECS would be able to freely make reproduction buildsheets for display/novelty use only but a public list of the repros should be available to keep the unscrupulous folks in check and prevent possible fraud down the line.

This all came about because fraud may have already happened with one of his sheets! He made a display sheet for one of my customers car who had misplaced his original. 2 new owners later, the car is on ebay with a picture of the repro sheet!

A list disclosing the repro sheets he's already made would most certainly help negate any thoughts of trying to "fake" anything!!

This is a positive thing, we just need to get ECS on board. This would be for the good of the hobby and help defend the value a true original sheet adds to a vehicle.

[dyslexic teddybear]

Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!       Although, it is a bitch to get off of the red paint, not so much with our black el camino!

Additional undercoating.......

[ECS]

Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!

Master B......is your "undercoating" comment a subliminal criticism about the work we did on the Valiant?  JUST KIDDING!  Can you believe the twists and turns this thread has taken?  One thing is for sure!  I've been schooled about proper etiquette on the internet Forums.  For instance, if anyone agrees with you they MUST be on your payroll.  (Brian.....you're Fired!)    If you are a "business owner" it's juvenile to post in a discussion but if you are a "professional business consultant to the automotive industry" providing similar commentary is considered a virtue!  Those who doctor and falsify "DOCUMENTS" are the ones qualified to suggest a deterrence for the actions that they themselves practice.  WOW!  I guess Business should remain Business and the Forums an alternative to reality TV.  All in good fun of course.......

[resq302]

Dave, (or should I say Mr. Trump!)

IF in fact I am fired, how come I never received a W-2 statement?  Am I entitled to severance pay?  If so, when should I expect that?  My guess is it would be the same as every other pay check..... never.   

And yes, it was a subliminal comment because, lets face it, that undercoating you put on there was totally wrong.  It wasn't on the back side of the frame rails or in the area where the trans / driveshaft hump was.  For all the knowledge you have, you'd think you'd have at least gotten THAT right!  I mean, look at all the cars you do professionally!

Oops, maybe I should remain quiet as I am in the beginning stages of starting a business.      I don't want any "bad press" to come back and bite me in the arse!