Who has had success with a roller cam big block?

[Charger-Bodie]

I read about that and found several instances of belt squeal that was hard to eliminate.
I hate belt squeal.
The Bouchillon setup also meant using an electric fuel pump. I didn't want that either.

 ive done 3 no belt squeal. the fuel fump i understand can be a deal breaker.

[Kern Dog]

That is great that you got them to work. Having the compressor down there sure would tidy up the installation. I did look into that but was really concerned about the noise!

[Kern Dog]

Part of this project included some cosmetic changes. I painted the heads, intake and water pump the same color as the block....GoManGo Orange.
The A/C system is open since I had to pull the condenser so I figured to reroute one line and tidy up the firewall.
The Classic Auto Air conversion kit for cars originally equipped with A/C came with blockoff panels to cover holes in the firewall that are not used with the new system. They come painted a satin black which would have been fine in a black car but not so much with any other color. I should have painted them red when I did the A/C system, at least then they would have blended in better.



Look how busy it looks with the different colors on the firewall.



Stripped of the ECM, Ballast resistor and voltage regulator, you can see the block off plates a bit better.



See the gaping holes ?



I took some cardboard and made a template of the firewall to use as a pattern to make my own cover plate.



I traced it on some 18 gauge sheet metal....

[Kern Dog]

The panel was cut to fit, painted and holes were traced...





I had to duck out to get a stepped drill bit to get the holes large enough to fit grommets on them.



The goal was to install this so that it just fades into the background and does not stand out.



I used body plugs for the A/C lines (Thicker wall, more protection) and valve cover grommets for the heater core lines.



The wiring needs to be wrapped up, then I'll mount the ECM, Ballast and Voltage regulator.

[cdr]

you are going to end up with an electric fuel pump anyhow !!!!   with that roller cam & the pump push rod not lasting very long

[Kern Dog]

Charlie pops in!
Hey there, man....Fuel pump? Not to worry, I have one of these:

[cdr]

Charlie pops in!
Hey there, man....Fuel pump? Not to worry, I have one of these:

So did I , lasted 400 miles

[Kern Dog]

Well, that is not convenient at all. I've heard advice about the distributor drive but nobody but you has mentioned eating up fuel pump pushrods. I guess I should carry a spare and if it does pose a problem, maybe an electric fuel pump is the final solution.
Thanks!

[Kern Dog]

As part of the Snowball Effect, this project has a few unrelated things that deviate from the main goal but it made sense to address them.
The firewall plate is but one. The way it looked until a month ago...



Today.



The radiator has a nipple for the overflow that aims toward the driver's side, for years I had a U turn on it so I could mount the jug on the right fender apron.



It worked but looked crappy so I decided to relocate the overflow jug to the left side.



That solves that issue and the thing almost looks like it belongs there.
Now, I'm back on the main project!
Part of that included changing valve springs. Now that that is done, I opened up the box with the rocker arms and shafts and got them set up.



These are PRW steel 1.6 ratio, bronze bushed. The kit comes with studs to mount the assemblies, spacers, shims, hold downs and all hardware needed.
Now, assembling these is probably nothing new to most of you but this is just the second time that I have done this for myself. The last set I installed was this set from Mancini Racing well over 12-14 years ago.



The aluminum ones still are in great shape but I thought that maybe the higher spring pressures I'm using, steel would be less likely to fail. The Mancini set came with ZERO instructions but somehow I got it right.

Oh yeah....I painted the heads the same GoManGo orange that the engine block is...

[Kern Dog]

This PRW set comes with very clear instructions. Thank you for that! In them, it is stated that there must me between .015 and .020 clearance in each section. I interpreted that to mean between the hold downs. To verify, I pushed the rockers, shims and spacers to the left then measured the clearance between the rocker arm and stand to the right.
Here is a nugget that you may not know. The hold downs do vary a few thousands in overall width. If you're running a little tight of the .015 clearance, maybe measure the hold down and compare it to the others in the box.
Also, the holes in the center of the hold downs are not always centered.





That one is .010 different from one side to the other.
Talking to Don at B3 Racing, he said that going a little wider than the .020 is fine, that it is better to be a little loose rather than tight. You don't want it to bind.



Every section used a .060 shim to the outside of the rocker to get the roller wheel centered on the valve.



I set up the rockers & shafts specifically for each head in case the castings had any differences between the two. I wrote down the placement and thicknesses of the shims for my own records.



Note the rocker dead center of the picture above. Note that it has a hole in it. That is the replacement rocker that was sent to make up for this mistake:



Will that hole pose a problem? This is the only one of the set with a hole in it.



One more thing....
While I checked for the .015 to .020 clearance, I noticed that sometimes if I checked clearance on one set, the other set next to it lost it's clearance.
I took this to mean that by moving the hold downs to get clearance, it shifted it over and made the next set too tight. I have a feeling that I may have to take these apart to really get it right. I will probably need to use a feeler gauge when tightening the hold down nuts to ensure the clarances are where they should be.
Oddly, the aluminum Mancini Racing rocker arm set all were spot on after all these years.

[Kern Dog]

The heads are on and torqued. The headers are back on too.
Today I slid in the camshaft. It spun easy, it is smoother than any other cam that I have had in this engine and I've had a few!
1) MP 292/509
2) Comp Cams XE 285 (Failed)
3) Comp Cams XE 285 (also failed)
4) MP 292/509 from before
5) Lunati solid lifter
6) MP 528 solid (Failed)
7 Lunati solid again.

Before degreeing the cam, I checked camshaft end play. The spec is between .005 to .010. I have a reinforced timing cover from The 440 Source. It is .019 shallower than a stock timing cover which may be why it bolts on and leaves no end play at all. The cam button presses directly against the inside of the cover  to the point wher it no only has no end play, there is actually preload. That is not good.
I have a standard .030 Fel Pro timing cover gasket in place and the cam is wedged in there. I doubled the gasket with another I had here and it still has no clearance. The next move is undetermined. I could put the timing cover in my press and push out from the inside to get some clearance. There are thicker timing cover gaskets available. Superformance makes one that is .047". It may make sense to press the cover a little, trial fit, press until I have the adequate clearance. I can do that here and it costs nothing.

[Kern Dog]

It turns out that the practice of dimpling the timing cover is common. There are several things to this project that I have not done before and the lack of familiarity sometimes brings some nervousness. When you simply don't know, it can be intimidating.
Today I dimpled the original timing cover. I wanted to practice on this one just to know what to expect. I figured that any outward dimple in it won't affect a flat tappet cam build so this wasn't ruining the timing cover for later engine builds.
When I first tried to test fit it, it would not sit flush to the face of the block, indicating that the cam button stuck out further than the depth of the timing cover. I used my press to push it out right where the cam button made contact. One press seemed to get the cover to almost sit flush to the block, but not quite. A second press did allow me to bolt up the cover but using a dial indicator, the end play was .027 of an inch. I'm aiming between zero and .010, ideally between .005 and .010. This showed me that these covers can be dimpled to get the clearance I wanted so I went back to the new cover from the 440 Source. It was pretty much the same as it was with the first cover...Preload at first, I pressed it and was around zero, I pressed it a second time and it jumped to .024. It does not take much to jump so little. I pressed the dimple back towards the block and got the clearance down to .002. If I pry a bit forward, it flexes the cover a little to .005 so I think I'm within the target here. Next up is to degree the cam.

[Kern Dog]

I planned to get the cam degreed today but I'm having some trouble.
First, I know that you have to establish TDC reliably to get accurate camshaft timing readings. First I had the timing cover on the front and test fitted the balancer to ensure that I was right on the mark. I had to rotate the crank a couple of degrees to meet this point.
With that done, I used a piston stop and set about to verify TDC that way. I found that I was almost 1 degree off so I moved the degree wheel to correct it but I think this was a mistake. A set of instructions I have state to rotate the crank, not the wheel. I made this mistake a few times while chasing the number I'm supposed to have. I am aiming for a 108 centerline.

The first three attempts were 110, 110.5 and 112. I knew that I was in error somehow but thought that these high numbers meant the timing was at least 2 degrees late so I switched the crank sprocket to the 2 degree advance setting. This meant reestablishing the TDC, right? I did the piston stop procedure again , degree wheel. .050 again and came up with 104 degrees. How could a 2 degree difference in the sprocket account for this?
I switched the crank sprocket back to ZERO, reestablished TD again (**This is where I made a big error**) then got numbers way the hell off. I was so mad, I don't even remember what they were.
I'm either missing something or I am not properly establishing TDC which will make every measurement from there inaccurate. I had to stop for dinner, frustrated and annoyed with myself. I will start from the beginning tomorrow, fresh eyes and probably make better sense of it.
Here is another thing....
The Comp Cam instructions in the box cover flat tappet and roller cam installations with a couple of sidebars for the roller cam applications....yet in the break in segment, they don't exclude roller cams from it. This may lead people to think that roller camshafts also have to be run at 2500-3000 rpms for 30 minutes. Everything that I have read about roller camshafts and lifters has been that there is no break in procedure.

[metallicareload99]

RE rocker side clearance, I ended up with larger than what is specified because I seemed to have some binding issues. Like you, I noticed the side clearance moved around when torquing down the shaft. If I recall correctly, I put 0.020" aluminum shims between each pair of rockers and removed them after torquing

On camshaft end play, apparently the machine shop that assembled my short block set the end play @ 0 or even preloaded the camshaft. It lasted for over 15,000+ miles that way without causing any apparent issues But I haven't inspected the backside of the cam gear

What kind of degree wheel are you using? 0°-180°-0° or 0°-360°? Once you have found TDC you should not need to do it over as long as you don't move the degree wheel or pointer.

Hydraulic roller, correct? Where are measuring cam lift @? "Dot to dot" "should" result in 106° if the cam is ground like most. Might try a different than 0.050" cam lift?

[Kern Dog]

RE rocker side clearance, I ended up with larger than what is specified because I seemed to have some binding issues. Like you, I noticed the side clearance moved around when torquing down the shaft. If I recall correctly, I put 0.020" aluminum shims between each pair of rockers and removed them after torquing.

Good idea. One guy I spoke with said it is okay to be a bit looser than spec, the only drawback is maybe more noise. Too tight is bad though.

On camshaft end play, apparently the machine shop that assembled my short block set the end play @ 0 or even preloaded the camshaft. It lasted for over 15,000+ miles that way without causing any apparent issues But I haven't inspected the backside of the cam gear.

I thought that maybe I was being too critical but honestly, I don't have any experience with a roller cam in an engine that never came with one.

What kind of degree wheel are you using? 0°-180°-0° or 0°-360°? Once you have found TDC you should not need to do it over as long as you don't move the degree wheel or pointer.

I don't recall the brand of wheel but it is the commonly sold smaller one. My issues with finding TDC also include a crank hub that sometimes wobbles a little. In the past I have attached the degree wheel directly to the crank using a harmonic balancer bolt to retain it. This eliminates the slop entirely.

Hydraulic roller, correct? Where are measuring cam lift @? "Dot to dot" "should" result in 106° if the cam is ground like most. Might try a different than 0.050" cam lift?

I think that I discovered my mistake last night. I'll report back in a few hours.

[Kern Dog]

Camshaft degree work is easy once you figure it out.
I've often stated that a seasoned pro can encounter trouble and already have a way to work around it while a newbie gets stopped in his tracks.
Some of this stuff is new to me or at least not very familiar. I've only degreed a few cams so I don't automatically know the routine. I already had the heads back on so I had to rig up something to mount the dial indicator to measure lobe lift.
This engine has aluminum heads so I made a steel plate to attach to the valve cover rail. This serves as a base to mount the magnetic stand of the dial indicator.



There is a hole to guide the pushrod. I'll put in a pair of lifters and measure .050 directly from the pushrod-lifter-lobe.
If this seems unusual to you, I found several videos where I took these screen shots. First was "Just Mopar Joe".



He had no heads on the short block so he attached the dial indicator base to the deck. This next guy did too but was up higher since he measured off of a pushrod.



His pushrod may or may not be square to the lifter. Heck...have you looked at how crooked the angle is from the lifters to pushrods on an LA engine?
The sheet metal plate I'm going to use has the pushrod hole within fractions of where the pushrod sits in real world conditions. I have some NEW solid lifters I can use for the degree process if the plunger in these roller lifters compresses too easily.
This worked pretty good. It was the degree wheel and crank hub that pissed me off.



The hub allowed the degree wheel to wobble a bit, making it difficult to get accurate readings. I was trying to get it to a 108 centerline as listed on the cam card.



Again, I struggled a bit here. With the timing set and crank sprocket to the ZERO mark, the numbers were inconsistent partially due to the wobbly degree wheel. I was getting numbers over 112, 4 degrees retarded from spec. I clocked the crank sprocket to the 2 degree advance slot and tried again. I still kept getting inconsistent numbers so I pulled off the crank hub and just put the degree wheel against the end of the crank and used the balancer bolt to hold it on. No more wobble and I was able to get repeatable numbers....



This is the closest that I could get to the 108 number so I'm leaving it there.

[Kern Dog]

I hesitate to settle for "that is good enough/close enough/it won't matter" in matters where I am not that experienced.
In construction, I knew when something was close to perfection to where struggling to get it better would never matter.
If nothing else, this reinforces the logic behind the advice to degree the cam.
I would have been several degrees retarded if I just installed the timing set at ZERO.
Sometime in the mid 90s, I did a timing chain replacement in a Chevy 350 and accidently installed the cam sprocket one tooth off retarded. That was what...8.18 degrees? It ran but was S-L-O-W ! I tore it down after a short drive and corrected the mistake.
Fuel pump pushrod. It is a Comp Cams 4646. I wanted to make sure it was the proper length so I checked it out with the dial calipers.



That looks close to 3.215 to me. The spec is supposed to be 3.22 from what I recall so I measured a few others I had here starting with the one that was in this engine when I started this.



That looks like 3.211 to me. I had absolutely no fuel starvation issues but then again, would such a tiny difference matter? Of the 4 standard OEM pushrods I measured, only one was 3.22. The others were all in the 3.215 range.
I'm going to just chalk this up to production tolerances and wear. This bronze tipped pushrod is within the range of the others. I will carry a spare pushrod on road trips though.

[Kern Dog]

Next up, measuring for pushrods. The PRW set comes with a length checker.



It is easy to use. I just set one up about 7/8" shorter than the last set since roller lifters are taller.





It is backed out to zero lash. Now I have to find a way to measure it accurately. I have nothing here that can measure to this length.
Going from memory, I thought I was advised to get pushrods with a .080 wall. The old pushrods measured .343-.344 which seems to closely match 11/32.
I need to call PRW the rocker arm manufacturer to make sure that I am measuring this right so I get the pushrods of the proper length.



I think I have the adjusters threaded out too far at the moment. The next picture shows the near adjuster set to the instructions, 2 turns out from being seated. The far adjuster is how I thought they were supposed to be, with 2 threads showing from under the tip of the arm. That is how I had the other rocker arms adjusted and they were okay.

[Kern Dog]

I learned that these rocker arms are NOT to be operated with the adjusters more than TWO turns out from fully seated. It has to do with how they oil to the tips of the pushrods. I screwed them in all the way, then backed the adjuster out ONE turn. This leaves some room for adjustment.
The instructions with the lifters don't state how much preload they require, just the amount of turns on the adjuster beyond zero lash. They state 3/4 of a turn with the 7/16 studs/adjusters and 1 full turn for 3/8.
The 7/16 X 20 thread, that means that every turn equals .050 of an inch. I took the length of the checking pushrod ( 8.85 ) and then added the .050 X .75 ( 3/4 equals .75 ) and the preload of .0375 for a net length of 8.8875.
The pushrods are ordered. Smith Brothers in Oregon will ship them next week.
The one oddball rocker arm that was sent to correct the missing LH one....turned out to be a 1.5 ratio, not 1.6 like I need. I called Summit Racing and they confirmed that the correct one was ordered but the wrong one was shipped. They are sending a correct one.

[Kern Dog]

I've read from people that question the importance of limiting the camshaft end play.
I wondered the same thing. What I have learned over the years has grown in just this past year alone. Here are a few nuggets....
In traditional flat tappet camshafts, the lobes are ground at a very slight angle or taper if you will. This taper does two things. ONE, it encourages the lifters to rotate/spin to make sure they don't wear out and TWO, depending on the angle of the taper, it pushes the cam either IN the block toward the rear or OUT of the block toward the front.
Big blocks have a taper that pushes the cam to the rear. During operation, the timing sprocket actually rubs the face of the block right here:



On LA series small blocks, the cam pushes forward and the thrust plate keeps the cam inside the block.
Roller camshafts don't have tapered lobes. Acceleration forces can thrust the cam along with the forces imparted by the oil pump drive/intermediate shaft. This fore/aft movement is not desirable for a few reasons. One is because it makes the ignition timing unstable because it twists the gear on the intermediate shaft as the cam goes forward and backward.
Secondly, it is supposed to put you at risk of the lifter wheels riding off the edges of the lifters.
I took a look today. Only ONE lobe was off center enough to cause notice and even then, it is a situation that could never happen. Here is why...



That is cylinder 6 with the exhaust lifter on the left, intake lifter on the right. The lifter wheel is close to the left edge meaning to come off the edge, the cam would have to move to the rear by more than .060". The Cam sprocket has nowhere to go rearward. It touches the block and can't go further. Now look at cylinder 1. This is how 15 other lifters look.



The lifters are centered on the lobes and with just .002" of fore/aft movement, there will be no risk of a lifter running off the edges. The timing cover is reinforced to where even prying on the cam I could only get to .005 of end play, well within the .010 limit.