Why are there so many aero cars with matching numbers?

[HPP]

As some of you know, I'm seriously in the market for a Superbird/Daytona and amazed at all the matching number cars. With these cars being literal race cars, subject to what typically happens to race engines after 45 years, why is it that there are so many matching number cars? Many of these cars have documentation from day one and include a notebook of docs but is that engine really original to that car? How can you really tell? Simple answer is you can't.

As mentioned earlier, while they look similar to the race cars, they are not race cars and were most definitely street cars.This created the situation that these cars were a freak show when new. Many sat on dealers lots well into 1971 and were sold at deep discounts. They were long, hard to park,  and obnoxious looking to a lot of the public so many ended up being driven for a short while, then parked. Combine with economic downturn of the era and the oil embargo, and they sat even longer. As a special package car, there were not tens of thousands of them to be abused and throw out behind the shed, like so many other muscle cars. Sure, some where, but most were not. These conditions left many of them in near original condition.

Check out this link
http://www.bigblockbruce.com/engine_number_restamping.html
This is one of many stampers that has all the fonts and can restamp a block to look original

Even Bloomington Gold and the NCRS accepts this (I've read there are more numbers matching 427/435 1967's then were ever produced).

Big Block Bruce says "The answer is yes I am providing a legitamate service. In fact a much sought after service that the National Corvette Restorer's Society accepts when it is judging and certifying Corvettes as does the Bloomington Gold show the last weekend of every June. "

The bottom line:
Even if a car has an original invoice, a hundred pages of docs, how do you know that the engine is the one that originated in the car? Using the same font and spacing, even experts can't tell the difference. Unless you bought the car originally, how do you know beyond a shadow of doubt? Especially if you used a replacement engine that was date code correct.

That sux when you spend 6 figures on a car which I'm contemplating. I'd be sick if technology in the future could detect a restamp and my treasured matching numbers car turned out to be a fake.
Gerald

Yes, some things can be restamped. However, in addition to stampings, there are also casting numbers which cannot be easily faked. These should all be in alignment with a number matching car. Numbers matchign can also mean differnt thigns to different poeple. At one end is the correct matching body, engine, trans, and rear end. At the other end is the body and engine. Ask the questions to undersand what the seller is representing as a numbers car and see if that meshes with your expectations of numbers. Learning about subtleties and intricacies of the mopar world and the wing cars in particular will go a long way towards making you an educated buyer. Even then you will want to check in on boards like this one as well as other registeries. There is a lot of info out there on these cars because they were produced in such limited numbers and are now sought after.

[odcics2]

Be careful when lumping Daytonas and Birds together.

Daytonas were a sell out before being introduced. Keep in mind that only ten per STATE were built!
That's not many cars.  Of course some states had 20, some got 2-3 or none.

Birds are a different story. Around 4 times as many built and the market for 'winged oddities' already had 500 cars out there. 1970 was a recession year and car sales were down in general.  I have heard, and even seen, Birds converted to Road Runner status to sell.  I have never heard of a Daytona being returned to Charger status to sell. (have heard some lost a nose because of a wreck, though)

[Redbird]

Superbirds converted to Road Runners at the dealers, urban myth.

Gegg for someone that seems so knowledgeable, somehow maybe not so much about some things.

[Dino]

Superbirds converted to Road Runners at the dealers, urban myth.

Really? I had only heard about the Bird to Runner conversion on one occasion so I know very little about it. What makes you say it didn't happen? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious to learn more about it.

Oh and I want a cheap Daytona as well! I prefer non-matching by far so yay for me. 

[Aero426]

Really? I had only heard about the Bird to Runner conversion on one occasion so I know very little about it. What makes you say it didn't happen? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious to learn more about it.

Like the painted on fake vinyl top on Petty's 1968 Road Runner, the Superbird conversion story is one that will never die.    People who were at Daytona in '68 will swear top top was vinyl, when clearly, photos and common sense tell you it wasn't. 

For all the play the "they couldn't sell 'em" story gets, you have to put it in some context.     For the sake of discussion, let's say there were 50 Superbirds across the land that had noses and wings removed.    That is 2.5% of total production.  It's almost an insignificant number compared to how the story is told and retold.    And 50 cars in my opinion would be a LOT considering all the parts (not free) and man hours (not free) to make a conversion happen.  
 
I know of one (!) documented Superbird that had a wing removed at the dealer when new.     I know of a few cars that hung around unsold.   One was unsold into 1973, but it was because the dealer liked to complain to the zone rep about it.    He later sold the car for full sticker in 1973!     I would challenge anyone to please show me all these documented cars that were converted when new, and not because someone bumped the nose.    

I do agree that Superbirds were harder to sell.  I will concede that it is likely there were some cars converted for whatever reason.   Perhaps as many as you can count on your hands.   In our market (Milwaukee) of roughly a million people,  the last Superbird was sold in Sept of 1970, and for FULL STICKER.    

[odcics2]

Superbirds converted to Road Runners at the dealers, urban myth.

Gegg for someone that seems so knowledgeable, somehow maybe not so much about some things.

Who's "Gegg"?

Anyway, back in the early 80's there was a Bird in Detroit at a Dodge dealership swap meet that the owner claimed he bought new. He was from New York and had recently moved to MoTown.
It had a standard front end, no wing. "A" pillar moldings were on it and so was the rear glass.
It was also painted a gray -silver color and he said that's how he got it.

In 1975 I made a trip to the St. Louis area. We stayed in a small hotel that consisted of a bunch of separate 'huts'.
I saw a B-5 Bird without a wing that the original owner said he got a good deal on the car and the wing made a whistling sound, so the dealer removed it for him, filled in the holes and spot painted it.   

Perhaps someone in the St. Louis area remembers that blue wingless Bird?

And no, I didn't have a camera because when I packed I didn't know I'd see a wingless Bird!
If the guys that told the stories both lied, oh well.   

Let me add this: I sold my B5 Bird in 1991 with a warranty block 440.  It had an October 69 casting date and no vin on the oil pan rail. I heard it traded hands over the years a few times and amazingly does have a numbers matching engine!  Did the guy get lucky and find it?  Or....

You can Magnaflux or x-ray a block to see if numbers have been ground down and re-stamped. The original numbers will appear very faint, but you can see them...

[RallyeMike]

You can Magnaflux or x-ray a block to see if numbers have been ground down and re-stamped. The original numbers will appear very faint, but you can see them...

Ya, just take your X-ray machine with you on your next car inspection. 


The reality is that they are just numbers stamped on one of a thousand engines that could just as well been stuffed in any other car that week. If the casting numbers are correct and the VIN stamp looks right, don't worry about it and enjoy your car.

[rainbow4jd]

As some of you know, I'm seriously in the market for a Superbird/Daytona and amazed at all the matching number cars. With these cars being literal race cars, subject to what typically happens to race engines after 45 years, why is it that there are so many matching number cars? Many of these cars have documentation from day one and include a notebook of docs but is that engine really original to that car? How can you really tell? Simple answer is you can't.

Check out this link
http://www.bigblockbruce.com/engine_number_restamping.html
This is one of many stampers that has all the fonts and can restamp a block to look original

Even Bloomington Gold and the NCRS accepts this (I've read there are more numbers matching 427/435 1967's then were ever produced).

Big Block Bruce says "The answer is yes I am providing a legitamate service. In fact a much sought after service that the National Corvette Restorer's Society accepts when it is judging and certifying Corvettes as does the Bloomington Gold show the last weekend of every June. "

The bottom line:
Even if a car has an original invoice, a hundred pages of docs, how do you know that the engine is the one that originated in the car? Using the same font and spacing, even experts can't tell the difference. Unless you bought the car originally, how do you know beyond a shadow of doubt? Especially if you used a replacement engine that was date code correct.

That sux when you spend 6 figures on a car which I'm contemplating. I'd be sick if technology in the future could detect a restamp and my treasured matching numbers car turned out to be a fake.
Gerald

I don't quite know what to make of this post.   Are you opinionating?  Are you saying there is a lot of fraud going on?  Are you accusing anyone of fraud?

First, these are NOT race engines.  The 440 and Hemis COULD be raced, but the reality is that most of these cars were NEVER raced.   Also, if you are a racer - you could buy a spec motor - or a built race motor from a vendor (engine builder) and you never need worry about the engines in these cars.   It's not like you couldn't get blocks - and that's all a racer would keep.  Every other element would be an upgrade.  So I think your premise that "racers" would be buying these up - is off base.

Second, the Birds and Tonas were so unique that UNLESS they ended up as junk yard fodder - I don't think people parted them out (or did engine swaps).   Frankly, you could get the 440 or Hemi engine in a much more affordable vehicle or buy a factory spec motor as mentioned before.    Bottom line, the uniqueness of the cars helped keep stuff together.   

Third, collectability.   Pretty quickly on - people realized the value of the cars.   I also suspect they've not changed hands as often.  I have history on my car dating back to the original owner and I bought it in 1983.   The owner history went #1 (two years), #2 (eleven years - ten in storage), #3 (one month) and then me.   That's not hard to have history or documentation when you have few owners.

Fourth - the engines and trannys are stamped.   So you really have to do fraud to change them.   Are there some crooks out there - probably.   But only chicken little worries about the crooked folks.  Most are honest and the buyer has the responsibility to be knowledgeable enough to look for fraud.   The other point is - so what if there is a non-original engine running around out there as original.   If you can't tell - then it's really irrelevant isn't it?   What if Picasso's assistance painted a painting and Picasso signed it?  Is it original or not? You're just getting into hair splitting.

Fifth - the market is subjective.   What some think OUGHT to be and REALITY is often quite different.    My car will be restore so far beyond the factory level of quality that some would argue it's a custom car and not even an original.  (For example all my body lines will align - all my gaps will be even and exact all over the car)   Some will say "over restored" and suggest that it's not at all worth what someone will actually pay for it.   And most of all my car will be too finely restored to drive (at least by me) - but the fact is there are collectors who are "collectors" and NOT Mopar loyalists who will pay a crapload of money for museum quality restorations on an extremely rare and attractive car.   I can take that crap load of money and buy me a daily driver, a clone, or a non-matching numbers car.   I plan to retire in a few years - so I'm looking to cash out. 

Don't know if any of that is the answer you are looking for - since it seemed more like an opinion piece than an actual question.  But I answered it.

[rainbow4jd]

Superbirds converted to Road Runners at the dealers, urban myth.

Gegg for someone that seems so knowledgeable, somehow maybe not so much about some things.

Yep, the financials to do it and make a profit - don't add up.   The dealer would have been better to just discount the car and spiff the sales rep to move it.

[DAY CLONA]

Birds and Tonas were so unique that UNLESS they ended up as junk yard fodder - I don't think people parted them out (or did engine swaps).   Frankly, you could get the 440 or Hemi engine in a much more affordable vehicle or buy a factory spec motor as mentioned before.    Bottom line, the uniqueness of the cars helped keep stuff together.    

My perspective is a bit different, I've seen firsthand Birds getting engine swaps back in the day, a handful of Birds and Daytona's parted over the decades, where do you think the used wingcar swap meets items come from? either parted or repaired vehicles...I saw firsthand wingcars beat and trashed to death as well, and examples with blown drivelines, electrical issues, accident victims just languish on/in individuals yards/garages/etc slowly rotting away, or being picked at part by part over the years while their owners insisted they were going to fix it up someday, usually never for sale, or for sale at a ridiculous price for rotted/trashed junk

Sure there's the owners that cherished these cars from day one, or even subsequent owners down the line, these are few and far between, yes the uniqueness of the wingcar left most intact with original equipment/numbers intact, even if the vehicle was a total basket case

Fast forward, because I reproduce a variety of wingcar parts, and restore vehicles/parts/components/custom builds,  I'm in contact with a broader audience of car enthusiast in the USA, Canada, and overseas, I keep it no secret that I'm a proponent/practitioner of rebody-ing/ re-stamping/ tag making/etc/etc and I'm occasionally contacted by individuals who are either rebody-ing a vehicle, need an engine block or driveline component or part re-machined, and re-stamped, or perhaps looking for an "envelope car", or have an "envelope car" for sale, or individuals doing a conversion/build/clone/custom/etc....why do you think there's such a request by individuals looking for dated driveline components in a certain time frame/date format, re-stamp for the most part, simple enough...

And as far as actual casting numbers, they can be redone, tedious work, but they can be redone...DAMHIK

Fender tags/VIN tags and assorted other body tags can all be redone, the problem with most, even if correctly done in material, font/spacing/sequence/etc/etc is that most individuals don't "age/weather"a new tag, so it comes under scrutiny/suspect much faster, there are some cars that I know of, that have changed hands as well as for larger sums of money as the years go past, that have remained undetected, so a so-called history lineage of owners, even those "respected/known" in the hobby sometimes has no meaning as to the "pedigree" of the vehicle, so if the OP is truly set in finding an OEM unmolested numbers matching example, they are out there, but carry a stiff price, any restored vehicle IMHO is suspect, if "pedigree" or an investment portfolio is your bag...  

[KBeavers]

IMHO, there are 2 reasons.
1. They were always viewed as rare. The prices on winged cars was already climbing in the early eighties, when you could have any other muscle car super cheap. My Dad's car was wrecked in 1974 and parked. It sat in various people's yards for the next 40 years, but those people kept it because they knew it was rare. If it had been a run of the mill Charger, it would have been scrapped many years ago.
2. 440s are bulletproof. Big block Chryslers (and Fords, for that matter) were detuned NASCAR engines, with super beefy bottom ends. They were made to run all day at 6000 rpm. Big block Chevys, on the other hand, are grenades. That's why they couldn't compete in NASCAR in the late sixties, and that's why Chevy guys are used to seeing cars without replacement motors. Ya, they made a lot of horsepower, but they went "BOOM" alot. Let the flames begin!

[Galevin]

"....finding an OEM unmolested numbers matching example, they are out there, but carry a stiff price, any restored vehicle IMHO is suspect, if "pedigree" or an investment portfolio is your bag...  "

Day clona, nice post. I own over 50 cars and have been involved in collecting cars over 30 years ago so not as naive as some of the above posters tend to be. With this much money at state and with these cars over 45 years old I tend to believe there are more than a few birds/daytonas that are restamped. While buying a $150,000 restamped bird does not mean much to some of the above, it means a lot to me. Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of birds out there for sale (eBay ads, ex-eBay ads, online sales, etc) and there is a common theme: over 3/4 of them are numbers matching. Hence the reason for this post.
Gerald

[Alaskan_TA]

If any are re-stamps, then they are NOT numbers matching in any way, shape or form.

[wingcarenvy]

The numbers matching thing doesn't mean as much to Mopars as they do with Chevrolets. Since there are so many band wagoners buying Mopars now that they are the rich mans toy of choice these days, they bring the numbers matching importance with them. A GM product without its numbers matching motor is just another clone. See GM really didn't include engine or model identification in the VIN or body tag. Mopars spell this out clearly so you can easily know that the Charger you just bought originally had a Hemi, you can't do that with a 427 Vette. So even though you think your well educated your showing your lack of knowledge by insisting that numbers matching is a must to prove a cars pedigree. This is where the rich and famous go very wrong at the televised auctions. I personally would not buy my dream car at an auction unless I don't have a choice. Auction cars seem to always have something wrong with them and they are over priced most always. Also you really don't have much of a chance of really checking the background of the car your purchasing before it runs across the block. This community is really tight nit and a great benefit to the history of all Mopars. People who rest amp rebody cars are almost always called out on it on these forums and there are people keeping tabs on those cars. So be careful how you tread here and who you insult because you may just need them for your next big "investment"

[rainbow4jd]

Birds and Tonas were so unique that UNLESS they ended up as junk yard fodder - I don't think people parted them out (or did engine swaps).   Frankly, you could get the 440 or Hemi engine in a much more affordable vehicle or buy a factory spec motor as mentioned before.    Bottom line, the uniqueness of the cars helped keep stuff together.    

My perspective is a bit different, I've seen firsthand Birds getting engine swaps back in the day, a handful of Birds and Daytona's parted over the decades, where do you think the used wingcar swap meets items come from? either parted or repaired vehicles...I saw firsthand wingcars beat and trashed to death as well, and examples with blown drivelines, electrical issues, accident victims just languish on/in individuals yards/garages/etc slowly rotting away, or being picked at part by part over the years while their owners insisted they were going to fix it up someday, usually never for sale, or for sale at a ridiculous price for rotted/trashed junk

Sure there's the owners that cherished these cars from day one, or even subsequent owners down the line, these are few and far between, yes the uniqueness of the wingcar left most intact with original equipment/numbers intact, even if the vehicle was a total basket case

Fast forward, because I reproduce a variety of wingcar parts, and restore vehicles/parts/components/custom builds,  I'm in contact with a broader audience of car enthusiast in the USA, Canada, and overseas, I keep it no secret that I'm a proponent/practitioner of rebody-ing/ re-stamping/ tag making/etc/etc and I'm occasionally contacted by individuals who are either rebody-ing a vehicle, need an engine block or driveline component or part re-machined, and re-stamped, or perhaps looking for an "envelope car", or have an "envelope car" for sale, or individuals doing a conversion/build/clone/custom/etc....why do you think there's such a request by individuals looking for dated driveline components in a certain time frame/date format, re-stamp for the most part, simple enough...

And as far as actual casting numbers, they can be redone, tedious work, but they can be redone...DAMHIK

Fender tags/VIN tags and assorted other body tags can all be redone, the problem with most, even if correctly done in material, font/spacing/sequence/etc/etc is that most individuals don't "age/weather"a new tag, so it comes under scrutiny/suspect much faster, there are some cars that I know of, that have changed hands as well as for larger sums of money as the years go past, that have remained undetected, so a so-called history lineage of owners, even those "respected/known" in the hobby sometimes has no meaning as to the "pedigree" of the vehicle, so if the OP is truly set in finding an OEM unmolested numbers matching example, they are out there, but carry a stiff price, any restored vehicle IMHO is suspect, if "pedigree" or an investment portfolio is your bag...  

You da man!

Heck, Ford even makes brand new bodies for it's old Mustangs nowadays - so it's all a matter of opinion.   And considering its my name on the title of my car - I'll do what I damn well like and enjoy ever minute of it!    That being said, I am happy personally to know the history of my car - with matching numbers - (dating back to 1972) when I rode my bicycle around it and went - "that's the coolest car in the world!"   

[rainbow4jd]

If any are re-stamps, then they are NOT numbers matching in any way, shape or form.

I'm being a pisser....

I  have the original fender tag - I also have an exact reproduction.   So what does that make my car?

I'll display the reproduction on the car and hand the new buyer the original.  I'm doing that because my restoration is at a Concours level, and so the fender tag needs to match the perfection of the car.    But, I still think its cool to have the original - unrestored tag - as kind of a historical lineage thing.

[69_500]

More than a few cars I have seen over the years now have original engines in them again. However there are just as many that I am 99.99% sure are rest amps as well.

Where there is a profit to be made, crooked people will find a way to make it.

[DAY CLONA]

More than a few cars I have seen over the years now have original engines in them again. However there are just as many that I am 99.99% sure are rest amps as well.

Where there is a profit to be made, crooked people will find a way to make it.

For some, yeah it's money making time, for some of those misguided souls who can't sleep at night knowing their pride and joy is not numbers matching, re stamping the block, tranny, and/or having a fender tag or buildsheet, etc, etc made to vindicate the color change or options they added allows them to sleep at night

[Davtona]

More than a few cars I have seen over the years now have original engines in them again. However there are just as many that I am 99.99% sure are rest amps as well.

Where there is a profit to be made, crooked people will find a way to make it.

For some, yeah it's money making time, for some of those misguided souls who can't sleep at night knowing their pride and joy is not numbers matching, re stamping the block, tranny, and/or having a fender tag or buildsheet, etc, etc made to vindicate the color change or options they added allows them to sleep at night

Twist it around and rationalize it however makes you comfortable but its ALL about making money bottom line!

[Alaskan_TA]

Fraud is a cure for insomnia, who knew! 

[ws23rt]

More than a few cars I have seen over the years now have original engines in them again. However there are just as many that I am 99.99% sure are rest amps as well.

Where there is a profit to be made, crooked people will find a way to make it.

For some, yeah it's money making time, for some of those misguided souls who can't sleep at night knowing their pride and joy is not numbers matching, re stamping the block, tranny, and/or having a fender tag or buildsheet, etc, etc made to vindicate the color change or options they added allows them to sleep at night

Twist it around and rationalize it however makes you comfortable but its ALL about making money bottom line!

For some it's all about making money.  For others it's about playing with the cars from their past.
Those that want to enjoy the car of their passion have to pay up to the investors to have fun.
If one has a passion for these cars --and-- is ocd about losing a buck or two.  They will lose out on the money side.
It will be a take away from the fun.
Those that are in this hobby to make a buck will prosper by luck (finding a nugget) or ripping someone for a few bucks.

[DAY CLONA]

More than a few cars I have seen over the years now have original engines in them again. However there are just as many that I am 99.99% sure are rest amps as well.

Where there is a profit to be made, crooked people will find a way to make it.

For some, yeah it's money making time, for some of those misguided souls who can't sleep at night knowing their pride and joy is not numbers matching, re stamping the block, tranny, and/or having a fender tag or buildsheet, etc, etc made to vindicate the color change or options they added allows them to sleep at night

Twist it around and rationalize it however makes you comfortable but its ALL about making money bottom line!

Perhaps you perceived my comment as trying to "twist it around and rationalize it", I was merely stating how some individuals view restamping and other assorted numbers matching nonsense, personally I don't care how/what an individual does with their property, or why they do what they do or the ethics or laws that may or may not be involved...

[Davtona]

For some, yeah it's money making time, for some of those misguided souls who can't sleep at night knowing their pride and joy is not numbers matching, re stamping the block, tranny, and/or having a fender tag or buildsheet, etc, etc made to vindicate the color change or options they added allows them to sleep at night

Perhaps you perceived my comment as trying to "twist it around and rationalize it", I was merely stating how some individuals view restamping and other assorted numbers matching nonsense, personally I don't care how/what an individual does with their property, or why they do what they do or the ethics or laws that may or may not be involved...

I was not referring to you as I realize you condone this and as you say it doesn't matter to you. But nobody loses sleep because their car is not numbers matching. They lose sleep because of the money and prestige they are missing out on.

[DAY CLONA]

They lose sleep because of the money and prestige they are missing out on.

My point exactly, my post was in jest/figuratively speaking, but there are those that have mentioned on several boards the desire to alter numbers/buildsheets/fender tags/data tags/etc/etc to reflect the current alteration/build of their car, not for profit but the need to feel the vehicle "is now complete", or complements the changes made....

[Beep Beep Dave]

"So your saying if you paid 6 figures and it not be the original engine you consider being screwed? That being said how much value do you figure it adds to the car to be legitimate ?"

Yes if I paid $100k for an original matching numbers car and it turned out to be misrepresented with a non original engine I would be devasted. And would seek legal counsel and would try to reverse the deal. I may be in the vast minority but I want and demand originality and can afford the extra (sometimes huge premium) that accompanies that. If I buy a Superbird, Daytona or a Rembrandt, and pay the premium for originality, I expect what I pay for and would be crushed if it were fake. That's just me (and quite a few other serious car collectors).
Gerald

I think if its that important to you you better do your homework before you buy. How much money do you set aside for legal fees? If you are buying a car from a dealer most have no idea what they are representing, they are not experts. But I can assure you they have clauses in their bill of sales stating you are buying the car as is.  A lot can happen in the nearly 50 years since these cars left the factory.

Good luck with your hunt.

Dave