60 Dart Seneca 2dr.

[67440chrg]

Great progress. It will be a good car for him.

[lloyd3]

Looks better with eyebrows...



Engines need a functional transmission, so we went through this old 904. New front bushing and seals, new pan gasket and filter. Replacement parts have been a serious challenge on this project. What should fit doesn't. Fought all day to get the front pump back into this early 904. Ended up re-using the arguably original pump 0-ring as the "new" ones wouldn't fit (square versus the later oblong gasket body (post '63?) shape).



My son isn't the only one learning a lot on this project....



Tomorrow is rewiring from the firewall up before the engine goes back in. Every time I open up a piece of toasted electrical tape, I find another potential disaster. Lord help me...

[DAY CLONA]

Replacement parts have been a serious challenge on this project. What should fit doesn't. Fought all day to get the front pump back into this early 904. Ended up re-using the arguably original pump 0-ring as the "new" ones wouldn't fit ........ Lord help me...

I feel your pain!.... it's bad enough dealing with Mopars from the late 60's to early 70's, fortunately parts are still somewhat available, however the late 50's to early 60's stuff can be a challenge though, and like any project, it's always another can of worms as you dig in....


Just an FYI, if you haven't had the "pleasure" yet of dealing with the rear pressed on drums, and or adjusting dual servo brakes, never mind finding parts... I just wrapped up the rear end swap on my Daughter 61 Belvedere just to avoid these issues, I used an 8 3/4 70-74 E body rear, complete bolt in, zero issues, leaf spring perch centers were right on the money, overall axle width is 1/2" wider than the original, you'll never notice it in the car 1/4" increase per side, plus side is readily available brake components/easy service... for now I eliminated the E brake hardware as the E brake drum is on the transmission, but should I update the tranny to a newer Chrysler unit, I'll have E brake provisions on the axle should I need them....something to consider in the future of these cars....


Up next for my Daughter and I, is the Scarebird front disc swap, I'll let you know how that goes, as I know your interested in that

mike  

[lloyd3]

Mike....thankyou.  The engine goes back in the car probably tomorrow.  If everything sorts out accordingly (leaks, carb, electrical, tranny, etc.) the Scarebird project comes soon after.  I'm hoping you'll beat us to it so I can learn from your experience. The rear axle is still down the road a bit yet.

Lloyd

[lloyd3]

it's in...

[lloyd3]

it's in...

Good thing because the nice weather ends tomorrow for a little while. Got the engine bay rewired (desperately needed!) and the exhaust hooked up. We then pushed it into the garage and up on the lift to torque the bolts on the torque converter



This unit has been converted to an internal filter (1960 904s had an external canister set-up).

[b5blue]

Great job, looks fantastic! 

[lloyd3]

b5blue: Thanks.

It runs....



And very well. Smooth, quiet, no smoke, silky idle, but...it still runs warm.

[DAY CLONA]

b5blue: Thanks.

It runs....

And very well. Smooth, quiet, no smoke, silky idle, but...it still runs warm.

Did you change out the radiator/recore?.....type of thermostat? how "warm" is "warm"?

Mike

[lloyd3]

Mike: the radiator is about all that is left to replace. Everything else in the system is either new or has been completely checked out. We don't have the heater core included just yet and my son's theory is that we've short-circuited the system somehow. But...I'm not convinced. The factory gauge showed it to be in the upper end of the range after just 20-minutes of running, and the pressure (and heat) in the radiator was quite obvious. This radiator has clearly never been adequate over this car's entire life. It's been professionally rodded out and seems to flow adequately but....the engine we just rebuilt showed signs of endless overheating issues (badly sludged-up oil, burnt valves and head gasket, squeezed rings, etc.), that and the aftermarket temperature gauge in the dash makes me think it was never quite enough. There is no shroud and that 4-blade fan seems pretty anemic, but who knows? After all the work we've done so-far, I'm ready to replace it with a much bigger unit, whether aluminum or not.

Also....



We've looked for a replacement for the broken-out driver's side backup light since he bought it 9-months ago. We've done all the online sources we know about, and all the local wrecking yards, and have come up short. Can anybody here recommend another option? We're stumped.

[DAY CLONA]

Also....



We've looked for a replacement for the broken-out driver's side backup light since he bought it 9-months ago. We've done all the online sources we know about, and all the local wrecking yards, and have come up short. Can anybody here recommend another option? We're stumped.

Here's some on EBAY, spendy?...yes, but Christmas is coming

[DAY CLONA]

Mike: the radiator is about all that is left to replace. Everything else in the system is either new or has been completely checked out. We don't have the heater core included just yet and my son's theory is that we've short-circuited the system somehow. But...I'm not convinced. The factory gauge showed it to be in the upper end of the range after just 20-minutes of running, and the pressure (and heat) in the radiator was quite obvious. This radiator has clearly never been adequate over this car's entire life. It's been professionally rodded out and seems to flow adequately

lloyd3, IMHO I'd dump the radiator, even if it been rodded out/flows great, there's a life expectancy metallurgically of a radiators core that they become inefficient at dissipating/transferring heat.... aluminum aftermarket units are quite affordable, unfortunately the 60-61 Mopars are neglected by the aftermarket (I'm in the same boat looking at radiators for the kids car) so it looks like either a late 50's repro or 62 B body repro is all that's out there, or a true universal aftermarket aluminum rad... you'll need to measure out what will fit/hose location

Mike

[DAY CLONA]

Here's a few more 60 Seneca parts listing for back up parts. the solid aluminum back up delete plates are an option if your not required to have back up lights for the 1960 model year in California? the seller of the delete plates is Chet Greenwood in RI

[lloyd3]

Mike: Wow! My son obviously needs a few tips in locating unusual parts. Thank you so much!

[lloyd3]

Winter arrived here yesterday. School closures today and darn cold. In preparation for the imminent storm, I stayed home Saturday to shut down and put away sprinkler and drip systems and prep my yard for winter. My boy went up to Boulder to put in some finishing touches on the assembly of the car. While there with my engineer buddy, they experimented with the cooling system to see if they could resolve that bedamnedable heating issue. They installed the hoses for the heater core and then replaced the thermostat with another he had laying around (from a Subaru of all things!) that fit into the opening of the casting perfectly (unlike the one-size fits all auto-parts store replacements). This thermostat has a "tickler" which evidently allows for some additional bypass of the flow regulation to allow for what...better filling? Anyway, upon re-starting, the car then violently overheated and spewed dramatically. Upon cooling down, they added in the remainder of the antifreeze fluids (that seemingly wouldn't go in before the event) and restarted it. They explained to me that it began to make the most curious (and alarming) sounds, thumping and whooshing with even pinging/cracking sounds. The temperature gauge then plummeted to the low-normal setting and the car began to run perfectly. Flows through the radiator were vigorous and "normal" for lack of a better description. They then ran it for a substantial period, even backing it out of the garage to clean up from the earlier overflow and reported no more heating issues. I'm at a loss to explain what happened, other to to guess that a "bubble" has finally passed through the system, allowing coolant to finally fill some of the more difficult sections of the water jacket to reach (?). The reported "cracking" sounds make me a little nervous, but my buddy (who's a very competent mechanic) hasn't found any issues to indicate further problems. Stable fluid levels everywhere (oil and coolant), no leaks, no bubbles in the radiator, etc. Clearly, I'm pleased but... a little perplexed. Any guesses here as to what might have happened?

[Nacho-RT74]

Scary!!! specially because don't know what really happened!!!

how are the tail lights ? this look nice

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-DODGE-DART-PHOENIX-SENECA-CUSTOM-RATROD-TAIL-LIGHT-ASSEMBLY/202872480772?hash=item2f3c246404:g:JasAAOSwgPReFQzs

[lloyd3]

Nacho-RT74:  His tail-lights are pretty good, thank you!, and...they seem to be fairly easy to find. The back-up lights are a different matter and I just ponied up for a pair that Mike found.  Heck, I'm even finding replacement panels for the quarters in Canada (of all places!). I had hoped to get more done on the car this week but we haven't gotten above freezing for almost 3-days now. I'd really like to see it run at 180 degrees in person but...maybe later this week.

[lloyd3]

Well...I was out driving the Dart around Boulder yesterday with my buddy. It still has the quirk of heating up upon starting, puking, and then cooling down and running fine. Did some last minute repairs of the archaic brake and brake-light system (replaced the pressure switch on single pot reservoir and then replaced some tail-lights) and the BBS carburetor (sorted out a small leak and a check-ball failure in the accelerator pump) and then hit the road. It runs good! Smooth, quiet & cool, no smoke, smooth shifts and downshifts, no stalls, no overheating, and no electrical gremlins. Considering that literally everything under the hood has either been replaced, reworked, or rewired....that's saying something.  My present theory is that a "bubble" of-sorts forms in the head as it sits and then needs to be vented before everything settles down. We evidently haven't run it without the thermostat so that might be the next experiment. I also keep hearing about "bad" new thermostats as well, so...we'll see.



Last truly clean shot underhood?



Getting all these lights to work has been a big deal...



Still need to get the headlights back in it. Winter is clearly on it's way here with lots still left to do and now...the window of easy weather to work-in is closing.

Any hope that a Forward-Look obsessed Swiss National will offer my son  too-much money to refuse on this relic?  I suppose not...

[DAY CLONA]

lloyd3,


Something to consider, and I've run into it in the past when dealing with vintage iron, is that the current thermostat may be installed "upside down".... I had a customer's vehicle that behaved just as you describe, I tore my hair out trying everything to no avail to prevent the very events you describe, the owner had various people attempt repairs/cures, I just kept repeating the same mistake with the thermostat the last mechanic made, installing it as I was use to doing, unfortunately it took me a while to figure out the coolant flow was reverse due to the pump design, the thermostat had to be actually flipped to function properly... so confirm your pump flow and the proper orientation of the thermostat...the vehicle I worked on had a more updated motor but the owner transferred the older pump to it to use the existing hose attachments/radiator, this changed the flow direction thru the motor...

Try running the motor with no thermostat first see what happens.... this is how I solved my dilemma

Mike

[lloyd3]

We will try that Mike, thanks.

[lloyd3]

Finally....got her "eyes" in. Haven't made as much progress of late. Work, school, holidays, and even hunting seasons have kept everybody involved at other tasks. The heating problem seems to have fully abated without doing anything else except letting it sit and starting it occasionally. It no longer overheats and starts with barely a touch of the key these days. Currently waiting on a Tig welding repair of the front seat frame and replacing the single pot master cylinder with a more-recent two reservoir system. Christmas, of course, is the next distraction...

[DAY CLONA]

Lloyd3,


Considering some of the set backs with the engine, you've made good progress in short time....

Here's an upgrade I know you were interested in, front discs... here's the Scarebird kit that fits 1957-61 Dodge/Ply B bodies pn# FWD C20 retail $234 delivered kit has everything to mount your rotors/calipers, you need to purchase rotors, I recommend the Autozone Duralast 1977 Chry Cordoba units pn# 5311 $70 each, you'll need bearings, inners Autozone pn# SET17 and outers pn"SET2, and 2 seals Autozone pn# 5121, you'll need calipers Autozone Duralast pn# C269 passenger side and C258 drivers side $21 each (1990 Chevy Celebrity FWD application) the Duralast calipers and rotors were of very good quality...

Strip down the front drum backing plates from the spindle, 4 bolts of varying lengths, some castle and cottered, I replaced some with grade 8 hardware 7/16-20 as the caliper plate is thinner than the drum backing plate, you could reuse the OEM hardware if you use thick mega 1/8" thick washers on the backside of the spindle, after you mount the disc plate with the caliper mount towards the REAR of the vehicle (I recommend you put some hi temp red silicone on the backside of the caliper plate when bolting it on the spindle to prevent water from entering the backside/bearing/seal area), install the machined sleeve from the kit on the spindle (red arrow in pic) make sure it seats as far as possible, I'd recommend red loctite to prevent it from spinning in the future, even though the slip fit was tight, after that it's standard install of the rotors and calipers, note on the calipers: you need to mount the drivers side caliper C268 on the passenger side of your car and the passenger side caliper C269 on the drivers side of your car in order to have the bleeder screws mounted up high for proper bleeding, you'll need to use the spindle castle nut supplied with the kit because the OEM nut/retainer will over shoot the cotter pin hole, but DO USE your original keyed spindle outer bearing retainer washer with the new spindle castle nut... the disc set up will fit under the stock OEM 14" wheels if your running those?

As far as brake hoses, there's 3 applications depending on what you feel works best regarding travel and fixed frame bracket location: they are a 12" hose 1979-84 Buick Electra or 15" hose 1979-81 Camaro/Firebird or 17" hose 1979-85 Cadillac Eldorado...

Lloyd, the Scarebird kit was very well engineered, the plate was a beefy 1/4" thick plated steel, true bolt on, no mods or issues, just about everything needed was included...even dust caps that fit!

up next I'll be installing the 1973-76 Mopar A body Pirate Jack booster/master/PV assy retail $400 from my research it appears to be a bolt on deal...we'll see?

Total cost to get rotors/calipers hung on the front is just under $500, nice thing is you can buy it piece by piece, adding the booster along with the disc conversion as well as changing all the hard/soft lines should bring the total to $1000-$1200 to get power disc brakes on the car....

Mike  

[DAY CLONA]

.... Scarebird FWD C20 kit

[lloyd3]

Good information Mike, thank you. My boy needs to find a little work to help pay for the next few projects on his car. Once he's banked a little cash, the next steps can be taken.

[lloyd3]

Finally, brakes...



Nothing is easy with this old 8 1/4 unit, tapered axles and all.