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Author Topic: Some considerations about the charging and wiring upgrade and your worries about  (Read 61204 times)
Nacho-RT74
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« on: September 11, 2007, 09:32:41 AM »

I have noticed some doubts about the parallel charging wiring stuff and still about fears keeping the ammeter working on Mopars because overheats and blah blah blah So I wanted to make some consideration notes.

The reason why the Charging system melt down on Mopars is simply because alt is not able to charge at iddle &/or low amp output power. That makes power coming and going on all the wiring and terminals, including ammeter, from alt and from batt when alt is not able to feed, with high peaks for long time when alt is charging the batt and feeding the car at the same time when press gas pedal. That's what melts. A car with an unratted alt makes batt feeds the car and opening throtles power coming back from alt.

Being the MAIN SPLICE to everywhere, ( fusebox, ignition switch so then engine and everything, headlights ) located on alt section, black wire located between ammeter and bulkhead running to alt, the power pass through ammeter coming from batt reading discharge and heating more for a while more time is reading discharge. The problem IS NOT the heat, the problem is THE DISCHARGE. You don't have to save the heating, YOU HAVE TO SAVE THE DISCHARGE. Heat is just a CONSECUENCE. Of course a bigger ammeter will be the best and you could keep running even on discharge without worried about burn, but sooner or later will have the real problem coming out to float... DISCHARGED BATT.

You save that when you have a car being feeded COMPLETELLY by the alt.

Of course even on that way you still will have a weak point: black wire heating on bulkhead cavity. Thats the FIRST BURN AND MELTING POINT. You will notice that burnt point on ALL Mopars, specially A/C cars or if you live at cold area and use a lot the heater. THAT'S the moment when the parallel wire throught firewall comes to save us.

Reason why I/we/you use a heavier wire on upgrade to alt-amm section is because the alt feeds the car on that section. The main splice that feeds everything on car is located between buikhead and ammeter on black section. Then the rest of power ( if something left to send ) is barelly sent to batt JUST IF BATT NEEDS to recover power for some specifical reason, then you won't need a REALLY heavier wire on batt section.

If you have balanced power where alt is able to feed the car you'll NEVER get power from batt, allways from alt, so power never flows from batt to feed the car, just ocassionally, Specially on start moment, then on regular use never will get heat on ammeter or red wire at bulkhead.

Then getting the deal on the upgrade with the car feeded from alt, extra load NEVER pass through ammeter, and comes back to batt. Allways will be spliced and routed BEFORE amm so never get overheat there or after.

With power being feeded from alt, never will get a discharged batt!!! simply like that!!!

Just on STARTING moment is when you get a heavy power draw from batt... rest, will be alt.

Of course if you do have relays conected to batt side, you'll get power thought ammeter and wrong read about where is the consumption. Amm will give you the info like alt is charging the batt, what is not true, really is feeding the relays. That's why must be feeded from the alt side.

IF you get a fully discharged batt somehow you need to charge the batt OUTSIDE the car. If you decide charge on car, NEVER open throtles. Do it at iddle to save the system from the HEAVY charging load, at least on the first 20-30 minutes.

Some extra doubt, just let me know. I'll inmediatly add diagrams to ilustrate.

Sorry if on this first reply I repeated some stuff on several paragraph, but I was worried on get all doubts saved on several ways.
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 10:24:21 AM »

Let's start with how the charing wires are routed. This is your original system.


* Main_charging_wires-system.jpg (45.2 KB, 851x969 - viewed 16163 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 10:38:51 AM »

This is your system when batt is feeding your car. This happens when everything works without running engine and when you are starting the car. No power coming from alt.
Remember after ignition switch you also feeds engine, Fuse box at acc side, so then all acc are able to get power, starter motor if you are cranking. You can imagine how much load there is runing. Nothing wrong IS JUST like must be. Notice the amm needle position. I'm ilustrating like you were cranking. Of course accesories is cut while you are cranking.


* Power_flow_when_discharge_at_amm.jpg (48.13 KB, 851x969 - viewed 15073 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 10:51:22 AM »

This is the power flow when discharge at idle. Alt is probably charging but not enough to feed completelly the car or charge the batt. Then the constant power through ammeter makes heat there and bulkhead red terminal. Oftenly is normal, but this constant read is bad, not just because the heat, really because THE DISCHARGE factor.
If you disconect the batt at this moment, car will turn off because main power is coming from there.

Notice amm needle. Since alt is giving at least some of the power, then is more to center, but not enough. Thicker arrows are still on batt side. Alt side is ilustrated with thin arrows. I made this different stuff to proportional illustration of power source.


* Power_flow_when_discharge_at_amm_with_engine_running.jpg (48.86 KB, 851x969 - viewed 15304 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 11:11:33 AM »

Here is what does happen when you start to rev up the engine. Of course splice is at same place so then increased power from alt start to heat the black wire at bulkhead. Not bad, is just normal. Notice difference on amm needle position and thicker of power flowing arrows, simply changed, same as the direction. More Rpms on Engine then thicker arrows to batt side, and more Charge reading on ammeter. This is what makes heats the ammeter again and rest after ammeter. Nothing wrong on this, is just the normal stuff.

Splice still keeps "sucking" the same power. Car doesn't care where comes from, just gets what does need coming from anywhere. Amm is what SAYS YOU where is coming the power, That's what you needs to know.

These two lates reading are the normal reading we have on our cars. The more time the needle keeps at iddle below the center of ammeter, then the more time you'll have opposite reading when oppening throtles to charge batt to get back the power lost, and higher for a while you rev up more the engine.

This is what causes heat on ammeter when you have LONG TIME AND PEAKS readings, no matter where comes from power. And of course the higher power source heats the wire one more than the other ( red or black at bulkhead ). Normally black is the more heat source since splice is there and alt has to feed car AND batt when discharged, for a while red feeds car BUT NEVER the ALT.

Second diagram is the same but higher RPMs, where alt sends more power, Car is using the same and the rest of power is charging back the batt with more amperes. Of course, more charge reading on ammeter. Arrows are proportional to power flow again


* Power_flow_when_charge_at_amm_opening_throtles.jpg (48.73 KB, 851x969 - viewed 14903 times.)

* Power_flow_when_charge_at_amm_opening_throtles1.jpg (49.83 KB, 851x969 - viewed 14996 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 11:36:15 AM »

THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO GET... an ALT able to feed a car, at idle, with accesories working: A/C, Radio, Rear deffog, headlights, cluster etc... specially on those moments.

We don't care if whe have all that stuff working and ocasionall discharge reading when brakes pressed, hazzards, turning lights, dome, power windows, power antenna raising up etc..., because those equipments just work at certain moment, not constant. Car and wiring is able to get back power lost without time to heat anything. Anyway is just a temporally consumption that is so quick that is imposible to get the system balanced right away.

Notice center reading on amm THAT MEANS NO POWER FLOWING throught amm, so NO HEAT there. Imposible to get heat where you don't have power flow.

Heats is a physical and chemical reaction when a system is not able to support the load, the power, the energy or ANYTHING in the world. Uneficiency on energy flow or tranformation is what makes the heat. ( unless you WANT to makes heat LOL )

Of course, the more equipment working, then the more heat is able to damage bulkhead at black wire area. That's when the next part of upgrade comes down.


* Alt_feeding_COMPLETELLY_the_car.jpg (47.11 KB, 851x969 - viewed 16797 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 12:07:07 PM »

Once we got a good powered alt able to feed the car starting from iddle, then we have this to save the weakest points ( bulkhead ) from the extra load. This is what we have then. The parallel wires won't make to save the load throught ammeter, just save the terminals at bulkead.

Note: You will still keep the same readings on ammeter as earlier but this time with a GOOD alt, then won't have anymore low and high reading peaks, because load NEVER GETS the amm to feed back the batt, just go directly to splice to feed the car.

Of course you will have a full charge ammeter reading if you accidentally got a fully discharge batt, headlights left on for example all night long, or trunk light or dome light or whatever similar, but we have to be honest, THAT'S NOT THE COMMON stuff, and if it does,  you simply needs to charge the batt outside the car OR maybe charge on car BUT AT IDDLE, not reving up the engine, to keep needle on scale. You will notice how the needle will be moving to center with time for a while Batt is getting back the power.

Note: the more amperes batt you have, then will take more time charging batt up to full load, so then, more time to amm needle gets center.

The parallel wire arrives to alt stud simply becasue we won't untappe the underdah harness up to the original splice to attach/sold/crimp the new wire there. The amm stud works to that, but if YOU STILL ARE AFRAID about getting the new heavier wire up ammeter, then you can untape up to splice and attachs there. Then if you do, I suggest replace also the section from splice up to ammeter stud with same heavier wire. But trust me, you don't need really that, unless you REALLY HAVE BIG power stuff, like BIG AUDIO POWER PLANTS, LOTS OF EXTRA ROAD LIGHTS etc... Amm stud works fine, just be sure you tight up good enough the new wire on stud. Stud will heats just if wire/terminal is loosen.

For same reasons explained on this thread, specially on first reply, the relays upgrades should it be attached to alt side, no matter if on alt stud or amm stud, for a while is on BLACK SIDE, because if you do at batt side, then power also flow up to batt side throught ammeter and you will have a wrong reading, like you have discharged batt, then wil get charging reading, but won't be the real stuff happening.



* Alt_feeding_COMPLETELLY_the_car_with_parallel_wires.jpg (57.23 KB, 851x969 - viewed 17768 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
68charger383
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 01:32:40 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to prepare this!
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1968 Charger 383(Sold)
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 07:30:10 AM »

shall come in handy when I go to do this modification, thanks again Nacho. 2thumbs
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 08:49:06 AM »

there are several ways to go for alt upgrade BESIDE GET THE SMALLER PULLEY. Three options to chosse keeping same 3 wires alt setup:
-Newer modern alt.

-Alt kit upgrade ( up 105 amps available ) on your existing stock alt. http://www.alternatorparts.com/chrysler_alt_repair_upgrade_kits.htm or http://store.alternatorparts.com/daimlerchrysler.aspx

-Use a lates 70s alt. They are made with a bigger stator what gives you more output, including from iddle. Is a plug and play job, Notice housings cover the stator. If you go hunting on Junkyard is the cheaper way. I went that way buying a NOS alt on $25. Dunno exactly how much amps but tested on car and by now good enough for me:


* LATES_70s_ALT_LOOK.jpg (74.26 KB, 723x562 - viewed 14815 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Anders
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 09:48:13 AM »

Thanks Nacho. I'm going to do this parallel wiring system in the winter(should have a lot of time then). I also ordered new bulkhead connection for this winter project. My interior lights(if they are on) flash at idle, any idea what's causing this, cause they light normal when I raise rpm. Is it bad connection somewhere. The alt shows good 14.6v reading at idle.
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2007, 03:06:58 PM »

just got a PM from a member with some more doubts I'll clarify:

Fuse link... why only on batt side and not on ammeter side ? what about if amm side shorts out ?

A short anywhere will cause a HEAVY power suck. The only source able to give that HEAVY power draw is the batt, throught fuse link. Lets suppose car works just with alt, you don't have a batt on car, running just with alt, and get a short out. The draw is so heavy that engine will stop and alt will stop to give the power to the short out. With batt, even with a short, engine is still able to keep on, and still with engine off batt is still feeding the short. For a while batt is giving all the shorted power, fuse link is heating untill blows.

An alt at max output power maybe gives 100 amps, for a while you have a batt giving up to 500, 600 amps... mine is 850 amps for example. Lots of power there.

What gauge I used on parallel wires ? I used a 76 coronet donor wires what already have those. 8 on black and 10 on red. diagrams shows the same.

fuse links... 16 on oriiginal wire and 14 on parallel.

exactly what alt ?... the one showed on pic from my engine... alt with housings covering the iron center of stator. Even the lowest output alt of this kind will be feed LOT BETTER of your oldy stock one JUST BECAUSE CHARGES/FEEDS AT IDDLE!!!! because the wider stator, about one and a half milimeter wider!!! my alt does have the gold plate with PN, but never bother on chech it and search for output since my worry was starting from iddle, not reving up.

Again, the deal is get charge/feed at iddle, and then, depending on equipment, the wiring upgrade. Stock wiring and specially TERMINALS are able to drive the newer alts power UNTILL you start to get extra options working, specially A/C, because the blower and the revs decay when compressor is engaged. More because the blower itself, so heater cars are the same when working. What wiring and terminals are not able to support is the high charging peaks to get back batt charged because the not charge/feed at iddle stuff. Then charge starts when you press gas pedal, high peaks, long time periods... HEATS STARTS!!!

Also as far higher amp batt you have, more time will take to charge it, then heating will get more time... more melting

oldies alts feed the cars reving up too, just not at iddle. save from that.

My next suggestions to keep a safe electrical system: relays to blower and headlights ( mines are halogen ). Total of 6:
low beams
high beams
heater speed
low A/C speed
Mid A/C speed
High A/C speed.
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2007, 04:00:16 PM »

here is an upgrade I made on my car... Of course is a 3rd gen so maybe differ from earliers on some stuff but basically is the same... here the story about:

I hate relays to beams on engine bay bolted or hanging around, regular tape loosen etc... Another tipical heat point problem is the blower lever switch. DAMN, SOMETIME WASN'T ABLE TO TOUCH IT... I run the A/C always!!! live in a tropical country. of course plug was melting.. changed several times

I decided to mount a bank relay somewhere. Mount a bank relay did mean add lot of wiring and modify a lot the wiring locations. That doesn't mean cut wires, just untape harnesses and run to diff location and run back the wires to original locations to feed... still think is the best option, but just wanted to go maybe with that later.

What I did made ? relays underdash, hidden, saving from engine grease, heat, dust, water and then rust on terminals.

A red line, to feed relays from side to side of dash frame TAKEN FROM ALT SIDE OF AMMETER to keep the right accurate reading... used a fuse link too, just in case, but isn't REALLY necesary.

another stuff I didn't wanted is CUT original wires... what did I made, located relays at the plug point, removed terminals/wires from original plugs, replaced the relays plugs wires for the original wires coming from original harness and inserted on relay plug... then run a same color wire from relay output to source needs to be feeded and TADAAAAA!!! circuit is closed again and nobody see the relays!!! NOT EVEN IF THE WIRES WERE CUT OR REPLACED... relays ground are just taken from the closer body point.

In this case, headlight relays are hidden on back of kick panel, low and mid A/C speeds relays above of glovebox, and heater and high speeds are bolted on dash frame and pedal brake braces. will took pics later.

RIGHT NOW I just have located one melting problem point... blower plug. Probably just need to replace and sold terminal.


* relay_upgrade_underdash2.jpg (46.1 KB, 1112x529 - viewed 14970 times.)
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2008, 06:02:54 AM »

 Nacho -What size wire did you run from the Alt to the amp meter? I
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2008, 10:14:32 AM »

What gauge I used on parallel wires ? I used a 76 coronet donor wires what already have those. 8 on black and 10 on red. diagrams shows the same.

fuse links... 16 on oriiginal wire and 14 on parallel.
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2008, 04:04:12 PM »

Nacho
Great info.
Thanks cheers
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »

UPDATE ON 3/8/2010....I just spoke with Randy at Quick Start and they are creating a new winding for our Alt. and hope to be testing it soon. It will hopefully solve the low amps at idle problem by increasing output at very low RPM's. The new added windings will increase the width about 1/8 of an inch on the case but the slip bushing should just compensate enough that no mounting changes will be needed.  2thumbs I'll let you guys know as I asked to be one of the first to try one out.
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 05:25:13 PM »

2thumbs
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 05:52:59 PM »

i just installed a GM alternator and did away with the external regulator.....10 years running...no problems!!!   65 AMP alternator by the way
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b5blue
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 05:57:25 AM »

I poop on GM!  nana
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2010, 09:55:58 AM »

UPDATE ON 3/8/2010....I just spoke with Randy at Quick Start and they are creating a new winding for our Alt. and hope to be testing it soon. It will hopefully solve the low amps at idle problem by increasing output at very low RPM's. The new added windings will increase the width about 1/8 of an inch on the case but the slip bushing should just compensate enough that no mounting changes will be needed.  2thumbs I'll let you guys know as I asked to be one of the first to try one out.

No problem on the width change since the laters alt ( with closer housings ) got that thicker setup.

do you have some update ? I'm right now between get a new replacement 78 amps alt ( available at some shops like rockauto, advance on atround $50 ) or wait for the new kit... advantage of a new kit will make a lighter and smaller shipping, and will be assembly on the old stile housings, so more stock and correct year look
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2010, 04:39:18 PM »

Sadly no update yet Nacho, if they do not produce soon I will go with 120 amp Denso kit from Mancini Racing, they assure me it will fix lazy idle charge problem. They said 60 amp would be fine but 120 amp is only 25.00 more and I have ordered a bunch of Hella 40 amp control relays to handle the load distribution. (In anticipation of adding A/C, rear defroster and some other electronics) I really want to try the new unit but I will only wait another 3 weeks or so then I must do one or the other! You may contact them and get on the list by email, I talked to them on the phone and he asked that I email as that is how they are keeping track of those who are interested.
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2010, 05:16:54 PM »

well you know that suposelly the quick start ppl is offering 80 and 105 amps kits...
 
http://www.alternatorparts.com/chrysler_alt_repair_upgrade_kits.htm

so, still these kits don't charge at iddle ? it should work, since although spec is rated as max output, will mean also on all the scale should be increased
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 05:12:07 PM »

The low amps at idle is due to the number of windings, the alt. is not "excited" enough at very low RPM. I asked if they had considered a smaller diameter pulley as that would spin faster and they replied it would not be a true "fix". From my experience on boats with generators I learned you must add all planned options draw to come up with a total needed output for all conditions (many want to buy a gen-set cheaper than their planed use and then you must explain well you may run your lights and refrigerator but not your A/C, is that what you want?)(The answer is always NO!) With 20 amps going to A/C and 15 to rear defrost a 60 Amp is running out of Amps for lights and wipers at idle. (I found an electric heater that draws 15 Amps I want to modify for a heated rear defroster) The hope was to get a new unit rated at at least 80 Amps that charged well at idle (humidity in Florida is a real problem and we get rain for days without stop) My 10 Hella 40 Amp control relays came in so I can distribute power to anything anywhere and only be at 1/2 of their rated load capacity. (I got a good deal on ebay, 10 for 30.00 shipped) This will leave the dash controls as just actuators with no large draws running through the dash so the bulk of the power will never "see" the dash but go to the needed source of the draw. (Much like your diagrams, we think alike) It will be up to whoever has what I need when I have enough money saved up. The A/C and rear defrost are far from happening soon I just want to be ready for it power wise first. The Denso Alt. comes in only 2 choices 60 and 120 Amp....about 20 less than I targeted or allot more than I will ever need so yes an 80 Amp would be my best pick with 105 being a bit over rated. 
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Nacho-RT74
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 08:59:24 PM »

yes I'm agree on everything you said Cheesy, but still thinking why they are working one that if they supposelly already are offering that Tongue
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Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html
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