Flat/Matte Black Paintjob Questions & Advice - Malibu is BLACKED OUT!!

[bill440rt]

Let me start by saying this is not a Dodge Charger related question, but it is a paint related question. I'm posting it for advice from all the other fellow body guys & painters on here. Anyone on here have any experience or advice doing a flat or matte black paint job?? How "forgiving" is matte black on a car vs gloss?

I'm helping a neighbor friend of mine paint his '81 Malibu 2-dr hardtop. This is NOT a show car, it is primarily a race car but can be street driven. It's powered by a 454 with nitrous, and it'll run very low-10's in the 1/4. He wants it painted matte black.
The body is EXTREMELY nice. It needs no rust repairs at all, & I'm fixing maybe 12 teeny door dings on the whole car. It has your typical "stamping waves" in it, nothing major at all. I'm not going crazy with it perfecting gaps, etc.

My plan is to fix the little dings, buzz the car with a DA with 220 to give it some "bite", and then apply 3 coats or so of high-build primer. Then, I'll block it down by hand with 400 to make things nice & straight. Apply a black sealer, then the matte black paint will be base/clear with a flattening agent. The car will probably be shot with DuPont.

So, how "forgiving" is matte black on a car? If it were to be gloss, I know I'd be spraying polyester or skimming the whole thing. But, I don't want to go thru all that on this car.
Think it would be OK with some high-build and a good hand-blocking on original sheetmetal??
Any other tips are greatly appreciated!  
Thanks!  

[RallyeMike]

Bill,

Check out the flat black job we are doing following along with Hot Rod Magazine's application of Rustoleum flat black. Super cheap, and it really laid down nice.

We did several patch panels to take care of rust in the lower quarters, welded up some trim holes, a little filler here and there to take care of dimples, and laid down a coat of high-build primer to block it out straight. With the Rustoleum flat, you can block it down with 220, and once over quick with 320 (which is faster than going to 400). I was really surprised at well it laid down, and just like Hot Rod said, it looks bad at first when spraying.... but when it cures out it covers really well and looks great. You have to sand a little finer (400) to use the semi-gloss that we experimented with.

I know guys who paint are saying "Rustoleum, WTF?!"    I thought the same, but but it made a believer out of me. I plan on shooting at least 1 more car with same process. 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,82517.25.html

As far as forgiving....as with any paint job, you will see poor prep work with any dark color. I suppose you can get away with short cuts with flat white~!? The Rustoleum flat is definitely forgiving with the sandpaper grade.

Good luck.

[Dino]

I did CB's in a semi flat black years ago and although not as picky as gloss black, it's close.  

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9459.0.html

Not what you would call forgiving.  White would be a better solution if things need to be hidden.  However with some high build  primer and a long block, you'll be absolutely fine.  As always it's in the details.  After block sanding don't forget to take your time on all the edges to make sure they are nice and crisp all the way around, those make or break the end result.  A total flat black will be somewhat more forgiving than satin, but it'll also look like a primered unfinished car more than anything else.  You're definitely on the right track with matting agent.  

[bill440rt]

Hey, thanks for the fast replies!!
Mike, I'll run that Rustoleum idea by him to see what he thinks. I'll have to check out that link, thanks!! 

I'll admit, this is my first matte black overall job. I've done smaller areas, but this is a complete. Everyone I spoke with around here leaned towards a base/clear with a flattening agent vs single stage, because it'll provide a more uniform finish. Like you mentioned Dino, he's leaning more towards "satin" than "flat" to get away from the "primered/unfinished" look.

The body is pretty straight, & it still has the original paint on it (now silver). So, there's no filler on the car anywhere. After the high-build, maybe I'll cut it first with 320, then sand again with 400??

[Dino]

When you add flattening agent to clear, it's still clear and will flow like clear.  A single stage is so easy to mess up it's not funny.  Two stage will also make life easier if ever repairs need to be done.

As far as dry sanding primer goes I always used 320 followed by 400 on a da sander.   Then I'd go over everything again with an 800 wet, paying special attention to the edges.  You can do this pretty fast, it sounds worse than it is.     If you would paint a metallic you'd best go up to a 1000 grit but 800 is perfect for satin black.

[Patronus]

I would add that the wetter you apply, the glossier the end result. Thin, numerous coats is best to keep it flat.

[tan top]

When you add flattening agent to clear, it's still clear and will flow like clear.  A single stage is so easy to mess up it's not funny.  Two stage will also make life easier if ever repairs need to be done.

As far as dry sanding primer goes I always used 320 followed by 400 on a da sander.   Then I'd go over everything again with an 800 wet, paying special attention to the edges.  You can do this pretty fast, it sounds worse than it is.    If you would paint a metallic you'd best go up to a 1000 grit but 800 is perfect for satin black.

I would add that the wetter you apply, the glossier the end result. Thin, numerous coats is best to keep it flat.

i've never used single 1k clear coat with matting additive , only ever used  2k MS & HS clear with matting additive , i always put more then the recommended percentage off matting additive in  , if your using HS almost 1:1 , i also tend to add 10% thinners with it  ,  1 or 2 coats max give it plenty of flash of time between coats , turn the temperature down if in a booth ( for large jobs ie repaints ) , then wack it up high to speed up flash off time , then back down to do a second coat , i just paint it like solid color or normal clear coat ! , although don't thump it on as heavy , hard to explain with out having the gun in your hand & painting it , but you get a feel how close or far or quick you need to move the gun

[bill440rt]

Cool, thanks!

The only dry sanding I'm planning on doing is just the initial buzz with the DA in prep for the hi-build primer. The rest will be blocked wet. I was going to finish it with 400 wet, then prior to painting apply a black wet-on-wet sealer. I figured that would take care of any 400-grit scratches easily. 400 wet still too rough? Or, maybe go 320 then 600?? 

I'm leaning very much towards base/clear with a flattening agent. I was going to lay out a few test panels, with progressively increased ratios of flattening agent in the clear. Then, we can compare them to see which one he likes best. It'll take the guesswork out of it.

I feel pretty confident in the application of it, it's basically like any other paint job just with a dull clear. It's gotta be CLEAN though, because there's no sanding or buffing any imperfections out.

Tan top, you're only giving it 1-2 coats?? I guess 2 coats would be fine if it's MS or HS clear. I'm so used to putting on extra coats for sanding & buffing, my last paintjob was 4 coats! 

[Dino]

400 wet is too coarse, 600 is pushing it but it doesn't hurt to try.  That said, depending on the brand of sanding paper the 400 may be close to anothers 600 and the 600 may be closer to anothers 800.  Try it out, if you can see more than faint scratches when you're done then you know it wasn't fine enough. 

Very good idea to do a test run to find the sheen you want.  You can do the same to find out which grit to finish with.  Finish sand a scrap panel divided into three panes, sand one with 400, one with 600 and one with 800.  Now spray your desired base/clear mix and see what you got.  Be aware that the paint job will settle after a while, it will not show all imperfections right away, but two months down the road it'll sag and show every scratch, feather edge and whatever else wasn't pretty much perfect from the start.  My best advice, take your time.  Let everything dry as natural as possible.  If you need to apply a filler, don't touch it for a week.  Force drying may come back and bite you in the butt later on.  Like you said, there's no way to quickly sand and polish here.

Like Tan Top said, it's very hard to explain how to spray the clear but you'll know what he's talking about as soon as you start painting.  2 coats is ok with certain paints and I have to say I haven't painted in several years so products may have changed.  I used to go with one sticky coat and two wet behind it.  Never a thick coat, just wet enough to get the flow you need.

[bill440rt]

I hear ya. Maybe 600 then is a better choice? I'm so used to cutting & buffing everything for a slick as glass finish, and you can't do that with matte paint.
I would think a sealer should fill 600 grit scratches easily. I've covered 320-400 grit scratches before with it, so I feel safe.

Yeah, I haven't painted a complete car since my green '69, about 3 years or so now. That was in PPG. My local jobber is pretty good with advice, and always gives me tech sheets if I need them.
I'm looking forward to painting this car.

Now, the tainted question.... anyone want pics of this?? I know it's a Chevy & all...   

[jaak]

I agree with you Bill, I would probably lean toward base/flat clear. I have used a single stage 'hot rod black' urethane on smaller stuff, and it has got to be sprayed consistent to get a nice uniform finish. With a single stage urethane the closer you spray its more semi-gloss, then the further away you spray it, it gets flatter. Don't get me wrong the 'HRB' single stage is a good paint, but painting an entire car, base/clear is probably the way to go.
Also I have read about using rustoleum and others using John Deere's Blitz Black, but with those paints I have also read there is no UV protection, and if the car is outside a lot, they will fade. I think they are both lacquer based products.

Jason

[squeakfinder]

I did CB's in a semi flat black years ago and although not as picky as gloss black, it's close.  

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9459.0.html

Not what you would call forgiving.  White would be a better solution if things need to be hidden.  However with some high build  primer and a long block, you'll be absolutely fine.  As always it's in the details.  After block sanding don't forget to take your time on all the edges to make sure they are nice and crisp all the way around, those make or break the end result.  A total flat black will be somewhat more forgiving than satin, but it'll also look like a primered unfinished car more than anything else.  You're definitely on the right track with matting agent.  

Got a question. What did you use for paint on CB's car?


Thanks Larry.

[Troy]

That Rustoleum is oil or laquer or something and you can't change the color again without removing it all (incompatible). It will also fade rather quickly - but it's so cheap you can just respray on top of it. I've heard good things about the John Deere instrument panel black (do a Google search) as it's designed to be in the sun and holds its color well. I *think* it's compatible with B/C so you can paint over it. A local hot rodder here uses some paint on his cars that is also reasonably cheap and B/C compatible but I forgot to ask which brand. He says it is slightly more forgiving than gloss paint when it comes to body work - but only slightly. He said it may require one less blocking step.

Troy

[bill440rt]

Rustoleum is an alkyd enamel. Has little UV protection & you'll find if left exposed to the sun it'll dull out. Which might not be a bad thing in this case! 
I think it's OK on small parts & projects, but for this car I'm sticking with automotive-grade refinishing products (Evercoat, Dupont, etc). It's his dime, & he wants a quality job.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Bill,starting with your primer,if you are using a high build,and you know I use PPG vs. Dupont so I can't say I know their product,but unless you have a real nice primer gun,I have a Sata BF 100 with a 1.7 tip,the way it going to atomize for you might be rough,with that,unless you get the primer to lay out real flat,you should be sanding it with at least 240 and nothing finer to start.320 is just going to ride along the surface and not really "plane " through the primer to cut it and no matter how far you keep sanding,will be a orange peely substrate you are going to apply that sealer and BC/CC matte finish on.
If your going to use a sealer,again what I use in PPG will fill up 600 grit ,but def do not stop at 400.Remember this is going to be a finish that you will not be able to sand/buff imperfections out of,such as sanding scratches that sank in after settling has occured.
You are on the right track with the finish being done in BC/CC as per all my PPG rep buddys,for some reason DCC single stage does not flatten the same as their BC/CC,therefore they always do it in Base/clear.NTM,hope you are doing it in a booth,just the same,you get dirt,dust,runs in it,you can't fix them.
Thats why I love PPG's 2060 "flex-n-flat clear",you can put it on sort-of aggressive,it dries rather quickly,and when it does is perfectly uniform looking,looks nice and "tight" without orange peel.
Have fun,good luck,yes post pics,you know how we are !!!

[tan top]

Tan top, you're only giving it 1-2 coats?? I guess 2 coats would be fine if it's MS or HS clear. I'm so used to putting on extra coats for sanding & buffing, my last paintjob was 4 coats!  

yeah 4 coats  ok normal solid 2k even MS  ,  when i done my charger used  2k  with a  MS hardener & gave it a light grip coat  then gave it 4 coats.

whats  been said in above posts , good awesome advice & info

below is just what i have found
 with the number of different paint brands i've used ,  mixing up matt clear coat  &  or matt top coat /textured  or satin clear coat  for modern bumpers & body mouldings etc etc .  found the more coats you give it , the shinyer it becomes  
 even normal 2k  matt or textured 2  coats , MS same , with  HS  i tired the recommended single coat , well half  coat  / light grip coat & hit it with a full wet one straight away  ,  works awesome for solids & clear , but  its crap if your trying to paint matt clear coat or solid ,  ok enough of my waffling  ,  could always  get a scrap hood or sheet of metal , do a few full size spray outs  , see what technique works best for you ,

remember its got to be gun finish with this gear , no de nibbing dust & stuff  & if you get a run  your finished  , cant blade it & block it , then  mop it  ,  cause then then that bit will be shinyer than the rest

[Charger-Bodie]

Bill, IMHO if you are going to block it at all. I would lay down 4 coats of poly surfacer,block that down and then reprime with 2k primer surfacer. Block that in stages up to 500-600 seal and shoot with base clear.

[Dino]

Got a question. What did you use for paint on CB's car?


Thanks Larry.

I wish I could tell you but it's been over 6 years since I did that car and I honestly can't remember.  It wasn't from any of the big brands.  Our supplier mentioned he had some of this paint and could give it to us at low cost.  I believe it was normally used in industrial applications as it was tough as nails.  It was a pita to paint but turned out pretty good.

If you want to mimick that paint simply take a base black and a clear with flattening agent.  Keep a fair amount of gloss in it, a bit more than satin and you'll have it.

[bill440rt]

Just got back in from more sanding. Thanks all for the replies! 

Brian, I was really hoping to avoid spraying poly on it. I keep telling myself, "race car, NOT a show car, RACE car, NOT a show car..." 
The car really has straight original sheetmetal. Other than the factory seams, there's NO filler anywhere on it. The 2k primer we're using is Evercoat Uro-Fill. If you've ever used DuPont's ol' standby Uro-Prime, this has GOT to be the same stuff. I used it on my '69, actually. Worked REALLY well. Sprays, smells, fills, & sands the same, at about 1/2 the price.
I was hoping to give it 3-4 coats of the stuff (it's really thick), and then block with 220->400->600.

Paul, tell me more about this PPG 2060 clear!! Can you adjust the gloss with a flattening agent? Or is it ready to spray with only one gloss level?
I have an HVLP gravity feed primer gun (swap meet special) with a 2.0 tip. Works well for poly & hi-builds. I use an old standby JGA for base, & a SATA non-HVLP gravity feed for clears.
We'll be doing all the priming & painting of the jambs in his home garage (I want to use speed clear for this), and he's arranged a booth at a local tech school he is friendly with.

[Charger-Bodie]

Another Thumbs up for the 2060 flexed n flat. Real nice product and yes it can be adjusted to more gloss by adding other ppg clears.

[bill440rt]

Another Thumbs up for the 2060 flexed n flat. Real nice product and yes it can be adjusted to more gloss by adding other ppg clears.

Thanks! I googled it & have been reading up on it for the last hour or so. Looks like I gotta stop by my PPG jobber!
You can add it to other PPG clears to get different gloss levels? Good to know. 

[squeakfinder]

Got a question. What did you use for paint on CB's car?


Thanks Larry.

I wish I could tell you but it's been over 6 years since I did that car and I honestly can't remember.  It wasn't from any of the big brands.  Our supplier mentioned he had some of this paint and could give it to us at low cost.  I believe it was normally used in industrial applications as it was tough as nails.  It was a pita to paint but turned out pretty good.

If you want to mimick that paint simply take a base black and a clear with flattening agent.  Keep a fair amount of gloss in it, a bit more than satin and you'll have it.

Thank you.

That Rustoleum is oil or laquer or something and you can't change the color again without removing it all (incompatible). It will also fade rather quickly - but it's so cheap you can just respray on top of it. I've heard good things about the John Deere instrument panel black (do a Google search) as it's designed to be in the sun and holds its color well. I *think* it's compatible with B/C so you can paint over it. A local hot rodder here uses some paint on his cars that is also reasonably cheap and B/C compatible but I forgot to ask which brand. He says it is slightly more forgiving than gloss paint when it comes to body work - but only slightly. He said it may require one less blocking step.

Troy

Somebody had to say it. The Rustoleum won't hold up in my opinion. Within a year an a half it started fadeing on the car in my avatar. Plus, I started getting what appears to be water stains running down the side's of the vehicle.  After cleaning the car and wipeing it down with WD-40 it revitalized the paint to were it almost looked new again. But as soon as the car got wet from doing a car wash it wen't wright back to how it had been.

Troy, are you talking about John Deer Blitz Black?

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/John_Deere_Blitz_Black_paint   

I'm wondering how it would hold up with the hardner catalist.

[Troy]

Yep, it's the Blitz black. It's been a while since I read up on all the flat black paint so I've forgotten most of it. A lot of rat rod and off road guys use it.

Troy

[RallyeMike]

Somebody had to say it. The Rustoleum won't hold up in my opinion. Within a year an a half it started fadeing on the car in my avatar. Plus, I started getting what appears to be water stains running down the side's of the vehicle.  After cleaning the car and wipeing it down with WD-40 it revitalized the paint to were it almost looked new again. But as soon as the car got wet from doing a car wash it wen't wright back to how it had been.

As with anything, you typically get what you pay for. For a budget-minded race car that sits in a garage most of the year except when at the track, it would be the perfect paint.

The car we shot with Rustoleum is driven year round and sits outside. It collects door dings, paint chips, and rust. When and if it starts looking too ragged our plan is to scuff it and shoot another coat on it. I suppose in year I'll be able to report on it's durability and appearance, but either way it was the right paint for that car.

[bill440rt]

OK, "as requested", here are some progress pics. Just a warning, yes I know it's a Chevy. I apologize if this is offensive to anyone. 

All the bodywork is completed, which was minimal. Here are some just prior to primer. These were taken yesterday, we got everything finished & the car primed.