I know what killed the 440, God I would have nerver thought they F--k this up!

[cudaken]

 Well I have some pic for you folks of the holes and slugs. At this point, like I know anything don't look that bad to me. PIC of the worst pistons and holes, try to make them as detailed as I could.

Before I listed the big F--k up few other details. Be side painting my push rod's, they painted my timing chain? Oil pick up is full of Race Hemi Orange paint. Found 2 holes where the top and second ring gaps where with in 10 degrees of each other if that much.one oil ring (3 pices) where all the gapps where in a line?

Wonder why the 440 used a quart of oil in 85 miles, same thing the 42sick had wrong.

Few PIC of the slugs and holes, then the prizes.

                                                           Cuda Ken

[cudaken]

 Next worst holes and slug.

Have no clue what caused the mark on hole 3 on the thrust side. Scott seems to think there may have been some water in the hole?

All the pistons look pretty much the same and so do the holes. Cannot really catch them with a finger nail but can feel them.

Know hard to tell from a PIC, but not much looks odd to me. Well next PIC will.

[cudaken]

 Did not take PIC of all the rod bearings, well one. The white cost have marks on them and can see some silver but no much. Sort of feel them, but more see than feel. I would thing this is not that odd with break in but Scott seems to think they all need to go? Will post PIC Friday.

Now for the feast of resistences, the coupde gras. Trying to spell french.

When I got to rod 4, one bolt was not even tight!

As soon as I tried to get a socket on it, it moved?     

Yep that is what killed the $7,000.00 440. Rod bearing is chewed to shit. It all so explains why at first I only heard the racket at 2000 and above RPM's, them at idle. If I had not pulled it when I did it would have been in the oil pan with all the F--king paint!

Good news so far is the crank still feels good.

Will be talking with D&D Friday, if they don't offer this time to do the right thing (Rich from Mopar heaven) is sending his work to another shop and I am heading out there with a screw gun and 5 gallons of 100 ocatne AV gas.   Cant burn it, don't want it to go bad

                                                 Cuda Ken

[max]

Ken, that is some sorry looking machine work. and by the details of your desciption of the paint being on the inside of the engine, it was just a time bomb waiting to go off.

it is clear by the photos that the piston to wall clearance was way to tight. i have torn engines apart that had close to 100k miles on them and didn't have that much wear on the piston skirts.

if you have another set of those pistons, i would use the spares and throw those away.
and i would see if you could bore those scratches out of those cylinders, because you need the extra clearaces for those forged pistons.   

[cudaken]

 Max, feels like .025 to Sott by hand. But will find out when it get to the new machine shop.

I do have a other set of pistons, but have some eye brows in them that are not factory. From Brain 69 440 - Six pack and bad roller rockers.

Mic will tell the tale.

                                      Cuda Ken

[Blown70]

WOW..... IF THEY DO NOT DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT... WHOLLY CRAP....

[Mefirst]

-Damn

[firefighter3931]

Yep, looks like piston to wall clearance was too tight judging by the scuff marks that are present on the bores and slugs. What a shame... Hope the old shop covers the repair costs. The loose rodbolt is inexcusable ! 

Ron

[TruckDriver]

WOW..... IF THEY DO NOT DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT... WHOLLY CRAP....

If they don't, personaly, I'd sue them for that

[cudaken]

 So the pistons are junk?

                                             ken

[Chryco Psycho]

pistons are not junk IF the skirts have not collapsed
this is exactly why I went to approx 12 machine shops before finding the only one I use now , all of the other shops produced similar results to what you have , it is hard to find a good machinist 

[Silver R/T]

uh oh someone owes you a refund

[Ghoste]

How can a place that does that kind of work even stay in business?  It's beyond incompetent or careless or negligent. 

[RallyeMike]

Sorry to see that. Good that the crank survived.

It's a pain in the ass, but ALWAYS disassemble, assemble, check the bolts & clearances, and go over everything with a fine tooth comb every time. Just last month I had some valves ground and the shop returned the heads with the rocker shafts full of F#%&ing blast material ! I would have never known if I had not taken it apart to check the work. Even the best shops are going to screw something up every once in awhile. 

[4402tuff4u]

Wow! Sorry to hear that CudaKen. I'm now thinking about my 440 engine presently at the machine shop for a total rebuilt. The machine shop where my engine is at does mostly high performance aircraft engines, so I'm hoping that their quality control is very strict. I'm spending a bit more by going with this shop for this exact reason, but I heard that it has a good reputation. But as mentioned before any shop can make mistakes. Ken I hope they do the right thing for you - Good luck.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Holy cow.

Did this shop have a good rep? How the hell do you eff this up that badly?

I wouldn't hesitate to sue their ass if they don't make it right.

[cudaken]

 Neil. thank you for making me feel a little better. 2 bad pistons I can handle but not all 8 of them.

If the pistons are to tight like most of you think, I just have to wonder why 3 shop's missed that? First shop does mainy stock stuff, OK one of the reason I had it double checked. Thrid shop D&D, turns out Rich mainly sends them there stock egines, I wish I had know that up front. But Dan, the second shop does nothing but HP Mopar work, he should have caught it.

Oh well, no reson to cry over lost 10W-40. Just hope the next shop knows there stuff.

                           Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

I agree with Neil on the pistons....if they're not badly gouged then it's salvageable. The block is the key issue here as to whether or not those pistons can be reused. If you can finish hone .004 off the cylinder walls and have it clean up then i'd say you can reuse the slugs. If you need to remove more than that it could possibly require an overbore to the next size up making these pistons obsolete for this particular build. My opinion of course     

Ron

[RD]

damn ken sorry to see that happened.  sounds like you need to lynch your machinist, need some help?   j/k  Let me know if I can help ya out in any way.

RD

[67_Dodge_Charger]

That sucks.   

The machinist should have check clearances.

Robert

[cudaken]

 nh_mopar_fan first nice to see you hear from you and after my little @%$& about the Ugly Charger I gave you. Yes, they had a good rep from Rich at Mopar heaven or I would never used them. Rich and I go way back and he restores Mopar's for a living. AMT and then Lin's Crank have the best rep (Lins did the crank and balances) but there waiting time is 2 months to get the engine in. I was in a hurry back then and spoke with Rich about a nother shop. Rich was using them till what happened to me. They where doing 2 to 4 a month for him. Not now after they treated me this way.

As far as sueing them, I am up the creek on that one. Threw away the recipt for the 440. First, I am a man of my word and use to dealing with people that are the same way. Plus like I said Rich is the one that told me to use them and Rich is the same way as I am. Second, all the recipt showed was they took the 440 apart again, hot tanked, checked clearnes and wrenched it back together and that is it. Warranty was a hand shake and like a fool, that was good for me.

After the block and pistons are checked out, will throw the junk in the trunk in the Road Runner and see what they have to say. Rick knew (Ower son) this engine was getting a Supercharger and told me he had a blowen 440 as well. Maybe a leave blower with a 44CC engine.

                                 Cuda Ken

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I had similiar findings on my "rebuilt" 440 engine with less than 100 miles on it.....


Did a clean up hone and used higher comp pistons than were in there.....built it up myself and have over 1500 milles on it so far with no troubles

[General_01]

Hope they back up their work. That just looks plain ugly. Good Luck Ken.

[Plumcrazy]

Another thing to nitpick.  I'm not impressed with the crosshatch honing on the cylinder walls.  Looks like it was done by hand with a hand drill.

[Chryco Psycho]

good call that definatly is not a 45* cross hatch

[cudaken]

 Boy I posted about that on the old site. But I was told that, that is the way it sould be with the Chrome Plasma Molly Rings. If it was a stocker or a milder 440 I would have knowen better.

Just 6T9_CHGR.... , well your block looks worst than mine, so that makes me feel better.

                                          Ken

[Charger72SE]

while this thread was on the topic on honing, I thought I would post this picture of my 440 which was just done on Friday.

Does it look good?

good luck, cudaken

[cudaken]

 Paul, PIC is a little blurred. I use a tripod when I took my PIC and blew up and cropped the PIC for better detail.

Got looking at the rod bearings last night, there junk as well.

Only thing left in the 440 is the crank, cam and oil pump. Hope the mains are good but more than likely junk as well.

                                 Ken

[max]

i probablly don't need to say this, but i would have "everything" miced including the crank mains and rod journals.

more then likey i would just figure on what i had as a rebuildable core, i imagine once you get to checking things you will find alot more clearances that are unacceptable.


charger72se, it's hard to see in your photo but from what i can make out the crosshatch is there. it's alittle on the light side from what i'm used to seeing, but it really depends on the type of rings you plan on installing on the pistons.

btw. did the machine shop ask you what type of rings you were going to use, or did they just take it on themselves to hone it the way they wanted?

everything i have ever built has been for the street and i use cast type rings so i'm used to seeing more of a pattern. i loose some hp by going with the cast rings, but on the street i wouldn't notice the difference. i prefer to have reliablity with out the risks of loosing compression or oil so that is the reason i stay simple.

alright the flames are on so let me have it for using the old cast rings.

i'm sure others have better insight on this and will give you alot more info then what i have.

[Charger72SE]

thanks for the comments guys - I cropped & sharpened the picture for a better view

Max, I'm using SpeedPro 2355F 30 over forged pistons and SpeedPro Moly piston rings.  My shop guy suggested Moly rings from the get go

[cudaken]

 Well the crank is out and was bit of a pain. Seems number 5 main stud use a 12 point bolt. Number 5 bearing is shot but the crank still looks good. On main 1 and 5 I can see a line but not feel it.

                   Few PIC and more to follow.

[cudaken]

 Have to show you folks the timing chain, boy that is speical.

PIC of the main caps. 1 is in front and 5 is in the back.

Next is main's in the block,1, 2 and 3. They look nasty in the PIC but in person not bad.

Then mains of 4 and 5, I know 5 is wiped out, rest I think may be OK.

[cudaken]

 Next are PIC of the rod throws. They look pretty good, I was happy (Hum Happy and this posting does not sound right) with throw number 2 conceding what number 4 rod bearing look like!

[charger_72_318]

Painting the timing chain was more than stupid  
I hope you reassembly that engine soon, and dont' have anymore problems. 

[Silver R/T]

so nobody's paying for damage/incorrect assemlby?

[cudaken]

 Silver R/T, like I have posted many times before pretty much told eat sh-t and die. Will see what Dumb & Dumber machine shop has to say after I have some speck's in hand. At this point that is all I can think D&D stands for.

  Charger_72_318, in a dumb a-s way of thinking I sort of but not really under stand it. Have a chorme MP timing chain cover and black 9 quart pan. Seem's they where more worried about me bitching about paint on the chome and pan than the chain, crank and main caps?

If it was me, and will be the next time I would  called and said "Ken, cannot paint the block, we dont have a old  timing chain cover or oil pan"! I would said that is fine and I will do it my self. I do have a pair of valve cover's (painted the rockers and push rods but that is old new's) timing chain covers and oil pan just for painting the blocks.

Here is the hote, passed on a fresh 440 for $700.00 for the same thing I saw on my $7,000.00 440. Well that and the fact Zeb could not remember he installed new pistions.

                                        Cuda Ken, broke again

[charger_72_318]

so are u really gonna get a new one and trow the other one away?     man, u make it sound as easy as changing the oil  

[HeavyFuel]

Wow! Sorry to hear that CudaKen. I'm now thinking about my 440 engine presently at the machine shop for a total rebuilt. The machine shop where my engine is at does mostly high performance aircraft engines, so I'm hoping that their quality control is very strict. I'm spending a bit more by going with this shop for this exact reason, but I heard that it has a good reputation. But as mentioned before any shop can make mistakes. Ken I hope they do the right thing for you - Good luck.

Yeah, no crap.  I've got my 440 back all nice and pretty, just waiting in my garage in big plastic bag with moisture desiccant packets, just waiting for the body to get done.  I'll be worrying about the thing now for the next year.

But one thing encouraging about my engine shop.  They have a pretty good rep, been around for a long time, and they said to please bring the car back down to them when it is ready for the first fire up.  They would make sure that it gets off to a good start by double checking all of my work, and make sure the engine pops right off on the first or second try, and then give it a cam break in.  Sounds like they care.

[Silver R/T]

post some pics heavyfuel

[JimShine]

. At this point that is all I can think D&D stands for.

 

Dill and Doe's

[max]

Ken, to be perfectly honest. when you originally posted about the noise the engine was making i NEVER dreamed the kind of stuff that you have found and showed photos of.

this is just unexceptable by any shop and to think they do this for a living.

keep the photos and i would explain to the shop (in a nice way) that i was very unhappy with the service and work that they performed and i would ask them for compinstation (in $$$ not service) for the lousy work that you recieved. have the paper work on hand (but make copies) to prove they did the work.

if you still don't get any satisfaction, then i would let them know there will be a public service statement that will be made outside the front door of there business to notify other customers (with photos) the kind of crap you were giving.

if you have an old car that you don't mind the possiblity of future damage i would park it across from their so called business door with shoe polish writing on the inside of the windows stating the way you were treated and i would have the photos that you have shown us printed up and pasted on a piece of cardboard, again on the inside of the window showing the so called detailed work that they performed.

make sure the area you park in has a parking meter where you can put change in it every couple of hours, that way it can not be towed and it is perfectly legal.

this happened to an investment company in my area a few months back, the person that got screwed used an old mail van with a very very large banner stating how he was treated with an internet link were people could go and read the full details. he parked it in front of their business with a parking meter in front of it and he keept the meter running so it couldn't be towed.

from my understanding there was a very quick compromise in this situation.

[cudaken]

Ken, to be perfectly honest. when you originally posted about the noise the engine was making i NEVER dreamed the kind of stuff that you have found and showed photos of.

Max, never did I. I was 80% it was going to be something that was easy to fix. As far as parking in front of there shop, that won't work. There shop is pretty much in the country at there house. There is no parking on the road they live on.

HeavyFuel, sounds like you may have found a good shop. I hope you have it in writing, had a hand shake on my warranty.

                                         Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

Ken, the crank looks good....a simple polish job should clean it up from what i'm seeing in the pics. Lets hope the bores can be finish honed a few thou and this badboy can go back together.  

Ron

[Ghoste]

Lets hope the bores can be finish honed a few thou and this badboy can go back together.  Ron

I'm with you Ron.  The hard part is to now rise above the setback.  What's done is done and all that Pollyanna crap.  Don't let it beat you Ken.

[cudaken]

 It has broke me and the wallet. Looking at a 50,000 400 for $500.00.

Did not feel well today but the 440 will be another shop Tuesday.

                                 Ken

[charger_72_318]

Chin up..
At least u will be fun building up that engine again, please don't hit me

Around a year ago, we took a 83 beetle to the mechanic's shop, and he told me they were able to do a general overhaulin to the engine, so i bought a racing camshaft, bigger valve's, double springs, etc. but then they asked me for a new pump oil to fit the camshaft, i had my doubts but we bought it, then i had to wait an extra week to have my car back, when they gave it to me, i was excited to drive it and note the difference, but at the same time, looking out to not over rev it and brake a piston ring or something, but for my surprise it works as fast as my old bicycle, i took it for a drive at the freeway, and under a bridge it lost power, more and more, until it didn't move faster than 15 mph, so me and my brother had a good time and took us 2 hours to get back home, when i ask the mechanic what the hell he did, he said, that he didn't installed the bigger valve's cause in the machining shop he goes, they didn't know how to do it, then about the loose of power, he said, the new camshaft was pushing too much the valves against the valve cover's, and finally it took an extra week (making in total almost a month) to fix it, when my car was ready according to him, he charged me an extra 100 bucks 'cause he fixed it, he changed the camshaft for a stock one, and the double valve springs dissapeared, along wit the packages and specifications of the new parts, all that without asking me before, my dad was more than angry so we demanded him to return the parts he didn't used , and we didn't paid for the 100 extra bucks he wanted, we only paid for the rebuilding and the new stock camshaft, damn i made them bad reputation with all the people around in my neighborhood. After that, disappointed, i sold the parts  
I hope that makes u feel better, or angry against your machining shop, but at least not sad.. LOL

Good luck cudaken

charger_72_318

[Ghoste]

Well, let us know what the other shop tells you and we'll be with you as much as we can one step at a time.  I wish I lived closer to at least be able to provide a willing hand to get greasy.  This moral support doesn't do you much good.

[andy74]

ken, i wish i was closer so we could drink some beers and bitch about machine shops together! i dropped off my complet 360 last week,because the guy i use said he had some one who wants to buy it-i dont own a small block car,so it sounded good.well,i just came back,and they let the guy take it with out paying for it! the owner says he knows the guy,and he will pay me this weekend,so mean while i owe my shop for a bill,and about 10 guys i bought parts from-im   going to need a couple beers,just have to wait until pay day now.


                              not as bad as yours but still pissed off,Andy

[charger_72_318]

That Andy, is something that a couple of beers and a lot of money can solve...
CHEERS  
For the machining shops ( )

[cudaken]

 Block, crank and pistons have been dropped off at J&J Machine shop. Hee, Hee, Hee, Jack Plamer is a chevy guy at heart. 440 block was in the back of the 91 Daytona, rolled out a small cart and got one of the guys from the shop to help pick it up from the well of the hatch

Pointed out bare block was 250 pound bare. Jack thougt about it for a few seconds then got out the fork lift to pick her up out of the Daytona. All most slide off the fork of the forklift as well. At this point it would have been fine with me. Some owes me a 440 Block

Other guy all most busted a gut when he yanked the crank out.

Local guy from SLAM just E-mailed me as well. Said Jack is a Chevy guy but does good work. So lets hope for the best!

Just thinking out loud and drunk I will add. If I where to list D&D phone number, anyone want to blow them some sh--t? Must have caller ID and won't answer my calls.

Cuda Ken

[AirborneSilva]

Block, crank and pistons have been dropped off at J&J Machine shop. Hee, Hee, Hee, Jack Plamer is a chevy guy at heart. 440 block was in the back of the 91 Daytona, rolled out a small cart and got one of the guys from the shop to help pick it up from the well of the hatch

Pointed out bare block was 250 pound bare. Jack thougt about it for a few seconds then got out the fork lift to pick her up out of the Daytona. All most slide off the fork of the forklift as well. At this point it would have been fine with me. Some owes me a 440 Block

Other guy all most busted a gut when he yanked the crank out.

Local guy from SLAM just E-mailed me as well. Said Jack is a Chevy guy but does good work. So lets hope for the best!

Just thinking out loud and drunk I will add. If I where to list D&D phone number, anyone want to blow them some sh--t? Must have caller ID and won't answer my calls.

Cuda Ken

Damn Ken, misery loves company but I certainly wouldn't wish this crap off on you.  Well I hope that the shop that screwed you over gets theirs in the end.  I will try to PM you a copy of the letter I'm sending my HLPAG (strictly for your viewing pleasure).  Hopefully your new shop can get your baby back on tghe road and hauling butt soon..

[cudaken]

 When I was at J&J Jack showed me something I missed on the crank on number 5. Had two small ruff spots, that why the crank needs to be turned. When D&D had it, Rick said there was some crap on that main and he switched out the main bearing. But it seems they missed the ruff spots on the crank.


                                         Cuda Ken

[AirborneSilva]

Damn Ken this just keeps getting better and better (note the sarcasim).  Is there anyway you can go the route I'm having to go, with the AG?  Hopefully you will be compensated for all of these major screw-ups by supposed professionals!

[bull]

Block, crank and pistons have been dropped off at J&J Machine shop. Hee, Hee, Hee, Jack Plamer is a chevy guy at heart.
Local guy from SLAM just E-mailed me as well. Said Jack is a Chevy guy but does good work. So lets hope for the best!
Cuda Ken

You know what I think about this? I think you're probably on the right track now. A good machinist who has not worked on Mopar stuff much will probably be a lot more vigilant with the rebuild because he'll be a little nervous. When people get too stuck in a rut they start making mistakes so chances are this guy will check and recheck everything three times as he puts it all together.

Sorry about all your troubles with this project. You're a lot more forgiving and have a helluva lot more patience and fortitude than I do. I'm afraid I'd be renting a big azz dozer to drive over this guy's house if it were me.

[Runner]

alot of times a "rough" spot on the crank is from a rod bolt hitting it when ithe piston is being pushed into the block and protective caps arnt used.   

[cudaken]

 Runner, you just opend my eyes! That is why there are two ruff spots on either side. When I drove the pistons out I use 2 rubber hoses on booth rod bolts. Now which dumb f--k did it? Well We will never know.

Bull, sure glad I never talked you into this mess. (we where PMing each other)

                            But it was sure was pretty before I started it. Ken                                                  

[AirborneSilva]

Damn Ken that sure is a perdy looking motor, it almost makes me want to take you up on your offer - well almost 

[cudaken]

 Runner, I was tanked last night when you said you opened my eyes. Was sobler for a while to day, well for a while Ruff spots where on the number 5 Main, not the rod throws.

Yea Tony sure is pretty! Skould have never started the POS. What was the offer I made you?

[AirborneSilva]

Yeah Ken you offered to trade me the motor for my Charger... ?

WOW!!!! this is one beautiful paint job ?

[Silver R/T]

Runner, you just opend my eyes! That is why there are two ruff spots on either side. When I drove the pistons out I use 2 rubber hoses on booth rod bolts. Now which dumb f--k did it? Well We will never know.

Bull, sure glad I never talked you into this mess. (we where PMing each other)

═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═But it was sure was pretty before I started it. Ken═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═ ═

so how much did long block cost you to build?

[cudaken]

 Opp's. I messed up, the Black Charger is Black and Browns 70 Charger. Posted the wrong PIC but what the heck it pretty as well.

Black and Brown bought it off E-bay, I was bidding aginst him for a while.

Silver R/T, I started with nothing, no block, heads or crank. Not counting labor to srew up the 440 I have around $6800.00 in parts and machine work in the 440. Pretty penny for 90 miles. Need to look up the recipts to be sure. Then I will hang my self.

                            Cuda Ken

[AirborneSilva]

Opp's. I messed up, the Black Charger is Black and Browns 70 Charger. Posted the wrong PIC but what the heck it pretty as well.

I thought it was a car you had painted.  Whom ever painted it did a hell of a job 

[cudaken]

 Tony, here mine that I painted at my old shop. Looks better out side and had not been washed for sometime.


                                           Ken

[AirborneSilva]

One word Ken - SWEEEEET  for not having been washed in sometime that sure has a glassy look to it!  Man both the car and engine look awesome, too bad that motor has turned out the way it did, what ET do you think it would have turned with that motor?

[cudaken]

 Tony, all I was hoping for was a 13.0 and not breaking anything. Sounds pretty low right? But that would have been with 2.76 sure gripp, 4000 pounds Charger and everything pretty much stock. Main thing it should have been esay to drive, idle around 800 RPM's and pull hard in any gear.

If, I where to brought the Charger body it self up the 440 level it could have gone say around 11.07. Would have need 3.91 or 4.10's.

                               Ken

[AirborneSilva]

Thems some awful tall gears but with that much power I would think it would turn a better ET then 13, I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an expert on horse power and ET's.  A friend of mine in Hawaii has a program that when you plug in all the particulars, i.e. weight, gears, horse power and such it gives you what your ET should be, I should have either asked him for a copy or at the least asked him what the name of the program is then I could go out and get it fer myself