GM Laying off 30,000 Employees

[Shakey]

Wakko, I buy "imports" Toyotas for the main reason that they are great cars and built in the USA with USA made parts.

thats a good point. For all the talk about how imports hurt the american worker, id like to see some numbers as to how many Toyotas and Hondas are built in the USA vs. how many GM's, Fords and DCX's are built here. I know my Monte Carlo was built in Canada...yep..definetly American.  

Arent most Dodge trucks and the Magnum/Chargers built in Mexico?

I know my Monte Carlo was built in Canada...yep..definetly American   - As in North American!

Magnum/Chargers built in Mexico - Nope, built in Canada also.  Three full time shifts - 24hrs making 1200 cars per day!

Canada will also be afftected by these massive GM cuts.   The plants in Oshawa, about 45 minutes east of Toronto, will lose one shift at one plant and another plant willl be closed altogther.

Another town, St. Catherines, about 60 minutes West of Toronto, will also be affected.

3,600 jobs will be lost in these two towns.   Oshawa - 150,000 people, St. Catherines - 70,000 people.

Life must go on!

[DC_1]

Arent most Dodge trucks and the Magnum/Chargers built in Mexico?

Magnums Chargers, 300s and some Mini vans built here in Canada.......and please don't compare us (Canada) to the Mexico, Europe or Asia. Cars are built here yes, but at least we buy them as well. Go to Asia and or Erupore and see how many North American products you see on the road compared to here in Canada. It comes down to the fact that the big 3 (if you can even call them that now) have lost touch with what people want in most cases. Except DCX look at the the line up of Ford and GM. Cars have no style . eg the GTO looks like the Grand Prix my wife had in 1993. The new Impala looks like the old one. the new GM Mini van is Fugly and now they have a PT crusier clone that is a little to late. Also look at Ford who came out with the 500 that is plain boring!.....I have to admit the Jap cars have much more style and have done an excellent job of keeping customers loyal once they gain them. The big 3 have their die hard customers such as myself who even bought Chrysler in the 80's when eveything was a K car even when they would put chrome and leather in it and call it an luxury car. In my opinion hats when they started to lose people and it hasn't stopped. I also agree that the unions and legacy costs are killing them....... And that is something the transplants don't have yet. My whole family has worked or still does work for DCX including my Grandmother who use to be a cook in the executive dinning room. So I have these arguements every holiday about what the unions are doing to the competativeness of automotive companies now a days. I think when the union contracts expire the company is already on such thin ground that they promise the union anything to keep from having a labour dispute that would shut things down. Manufacturing has become so exact that they have no inventory and the plants are so inter-dependent that if one goes they all go. I think the excutives making the decision figure they won't be around when they have to deliver on some of the long term promises so as long as during their watch things run smooth they give away the future. Well the future is now and the well is dry!

Sorry for the rant......

[Orange_Crush]

Hmmm. when's the last time you have heard about any large company closing any plants out of country. I think this is just another move at shifting labor out of country.

Not this time.

This is a survival move on GM's part.   Its like removing a cancerous appendage.

GM is a bloated, top-heavy pig of a corporation and, as a result, finds it difficult to respond quickly enough to compete in a global marketplace.   This, in addition to the ridiculous amount of money GM has to pay out to its retired employees means that they are hemmorrhaging cash at a truly alarming rate.

Do you all remember when, back in '01-'04 Chrysler did the same thing?   They laid off boatloads of employees, shut down plants, practically held suppliers at gunpoint to reduce costs, blew through their "war chest," etc?   

Now, if you'll notice that Chrysler is the only one of the big three making money.   The reason for this is that Chrysler is now a leaner company better able to respond to what the world market throws at it.   GM (and Ford) are not.   They are management-heavy bureaucratic nightmares where a good idea dies of old age before it gets siezed upon.

As I said before, its a bitter pill to swallow, and my heart goes out to every person that loses his/her job because of this, but its about time to take the bull by the horns.   I hope its not a case of "too little too late."

[73dodge]

I read this morning in my papers business section, about the only section semi-free of liberal one sided reporting, anyway my area is getting a double whammy with it's GM plants and Delphi plants. The 2 articles reported that the 2 biggest problems with GM and Delphi are what ChargerBill stated. Retirement of former workers pensions and Unions. The average autoworker makes 65.00 an hour benefits included. To me the situations is clear the problems are the Unions and their "I deserve to be rich making 40 dollars an hour because I put bolts in oil pans on an assembly line" attitude. The bottom line is the benefits that the unions demanded are coming back to bite them. 1 point that drives me nuts is the insistence in demanding that the company pay 100% of employees health care with little or no deductable or employee contribution. In todays economy that is totally unrealistic, just about everyone in this country has to contribute to their own health care. A company that gives 100% paid health care is heading towards bankruptcy. another is their demand for company backed pensions for retired workers, what this really is in reality is a corporate sponsored ponzi scheme, where younger workers pay the older workers retirement benefits. Eventually that will come to an end because it just impossible to maintain that zero sum gain. The retired people believe that it is their right that the company take care of them in their retirement with company sponsored health care and a paycheck. It is a cradle to grave mentality that has its roots in communism. It's reported that GM has to add 4000.00 to the price of every car that they build to cover the costs of employee benefits. That's absurd...........
to rely on a company to take care of you from cradle to grave is to put your future in the hands of market forces and the laws of supply and demand. The unions had the attitude that they would be making cars for hundreds of years and that GM would be around for ever and be able to take care of them for ever. That's foolish thinking you cannot rely on a company to take care of you and your family. You have to take responsibility for your own future and invest and look for ways to provide for your own. Not rely on a company to care for you when you retire, it's also foolish to rely on the government for the same thing if you think that social security will be around to take care of you when you are old. In case you think I don't know what I am talking about I have been a member of 3 unions in the past and that thinking is prevalent in everyone I was part of. I was a member of the UAW when we back in the late 80's early 90's making torpedoes for the NAVY and the union membership and the union bosses had the attitude that said "we've been making torpedoes in Cleveland for 35 years and they will never think of making them anywhere else" so they refused to budge in negotiations and would fight to keep people working who were clearly slugs and came to work with the express purpose of picking up a paycheck. Well guess what? We don't make torpedoes in this area anymore and have not since 92. They decided to move production to California to a company without unions. I still see one of the cocky ex union stewards now and again working at ---------- Walmart..............

[Todd Wilson]

I would bet if we would dig into this further its more of a management problem then a "union" problem. They are just putting out the BS to try and squeeze the union and employees into agreeing to a lesser contract to help out and keep jobs. The company and union agreeded on a contract. The unions dont just say this is how its going to be anymore. They wheel and deal and if we look at things over the last 15 years so the employee has been slowly loosing ground. I bet the top executives at GM will still get their million dollar a year wages and benefits. In fact they will probably cut jobs and real estate (trimming the fat) and make the #'s look good for the stock holders and cash in on million dollar bonus's. The top executives are not concerned with Joe Schmoe on the line setting engines in, They are concerned with taking care of the stock holders and making their big fat bonus's at the top.


Some people here are talking shit about about benefits and retirement pay and you shouldnt have to rely on a company for retirement. Thats part of having a good job in this country and they are getting fewer by the day.  The retirement benefits should be self supporting. Why wasnt this money put into some investment or account to earn interest? Sounds like a management problem to me?!


I hear everyone cry about health care costs. I would say some of this is bullshit too! They are a giant copany with how many thousands of employee's? They have a big insurance bill no doubt but they also get a good rate per employee thats probably a lot less then the average company for 20-30 employee's.   Must be a union problem here and not the health care industry charging stupid prices for health care. Or managements problem for not working on the best insurance deal.  At age 65 retired employee's should go on medicare. 

What is the age and amount of years does one have to have to be able to retire from GM and get full retirement benefits? Perhaps this needs to be adusted. Something that GM and the Unions should look into.
Perhaps GM and the Unions need to change the retirement plan. The old retired employee's are entitled to what they are getting that was the deal at the time. They will eventually die off.


Do we have any auto workers on this forum?  Do you pay social security taxes?  How is the retirement paid and figured out?  Lots of us here think that GM out of the goodness of their hearts cuts a check to a retired worker every month?! Is this the case or do they take "retirement" money out of a workers paycheck every week?


Lots of un answered questions here?


Todd

[derailed]

  Well said Todd. Your absolutly right about the top executives. Things are never bad enough that they dont get those great big bonuses every year. They want to start paying for shit labor, than they will build a shit product. Why is it these Toyota factories in the states arent getting brought down by these top notch wages being paid to there assembly line workers?

[73dodge]

In fact they will probably cut jobs and real estate (trimming the fat) and make the #'s look good for the stock holders and cash in on million dollar bonus's. The top executives are not concerned with Joe Schmoe on the line setting engines in, They are concerned with taking care of the stock holders and making their big fat bonus's at the top.

You can squawk about the top executives making money but let me throw this out, you can take an executive and teach him how to do a linemans job putting in engines, but you can't take a lineman and teach him an executives job.

Some people here are talking shit about about benefits and retirement pay and you shouldn't have to rely on a company for retirement. Thats part of having a good job in this country and they are getting fewer by the day.

And who exactly came up with this thought? where is the guarantee issued at birth that says you will be provided with a job and retirement if you work at a company for 30 years? In reality you are trading hours for dollars and no guarantee is ever made saying if you stick it out for 30 years you will be taken care of at your retirement. As a matter of fact once you collect a check at the end of the week that is what you worked for and anything else is not owed to you by the company. You put in 40 hours you collect what is owed to you at the end of the week. Stinks yea but a good company will try to keep you loyal and happy at the company by raising your pay and giving you benefits. BUT nowhere does it say that they HAVE to give you medical, retirement, dental, 401k's etc.  that's the common accepted practice.

I hear everyone cry about health care costs. I would say some of this is bullshit too! They are a giant copany with how many thousands of employee's? They have a big insurance bill no doubt but they also get a good rate per employee thats probably a lot less then the average company for 20-30 employee's.   Must be a union problem here and not the health care industry charging stupid prices for health care. Or managements problem for not working on the best insurance deal.  At age 65 retired employee's should go on medicare.

Sorry man but that argument does not float I work for a company that employees close to 35000 people and I pay close to 80 bi-weekly for health insurance for me and my family. Every year they raise the costs because of rising health care. Oh and if you think that is because we only have 35000 people it was about the same 4 years ago when we had 96000 people working where I do. bottom line is because of frivolous lawsuits and other reasons health care keeps going up.


My point in all of this is that working for a company is a risk a company can go belly up in 3 months or can loose the lucrative government contract in a matter of days. Then everyone is out on the streets looking for work with no job no health care no retirement. Now you can point fingers all day long as to who is to blame but the BOTTOM LINE is this, GM IS NOT SELLING CARS! You don't sell your product and you don't make money. To GM a worker is just another tool they look at you as a expenses, they can lower their costs by going over seas to build parts and cars and then they can sell the car cheaper and hopefully make profit on every car sold. Because profit is not a dirty word and that's what a company exists for. People don't start companies to make a humanitarian contribution, businesses exist to MAKE money.

[Shakey]

I bet the top executives at GM will still get their million dollar a year wages and benefits. In fact they will probably cut jobs and real estate (trimming the fat) and make the #'s look good for the stock holders and cash in on million dollar bonus's. The top executives are not concerned with Joe Schmoe on the line setting engines in, They are concerned with taking care of the stock holders and making their big fat bonus's at the top.

If you were a "top executive" at General Motors, would you be concerned about your million dollar bonus or would you be concerned about the guy on the line that installs seats, dashboards etc?   Please answer honestly!

[The Mad Scientist]

They are just putting out the BS to try and squeeze the union and employees into agreeing to a lesser contract to help out and keep jobs.

I wonder if GM is taking a page out of the book from that Delphi bankruptcy?   I was listening to all things considered on NPR the other day.   Gov. Henry (OK) was saying that the state would open negotiations with GM for keeping the plant open, he said everything was on the table.   He's worried about losing jobs.   But I don't think the plant will be closed too long.   It's a right to work state which means low wages across the board, someone else will move in and scoop up the plant, I've already heard rumors of other firms in OK that are interested in picking up the GM plant.   

[Ponch ®]

Magnums Chargers, 300s and some Mini vans built here in Canada.......and please don't compare us (Canada) to the Mexico, Europe or Asia. Cars are built here yes, but at least we buy them as well.  

Mexico? As far as I can remember, whenever I went there to visit (and when I lived there for 2 years), I'd say 70%-80% of all cars were Fords, Chryslers, or GMs. The only non-american companies were Nissan/Datsun and Volkswagen (There was a law that said a company had to build the cars there or get out). Now other manufacturers have come in, but most people in Mexico cant afford a BMW or Mercedes, and Honda/Toyota are still failry new.

When it comes down to it, Canada is still another country, the "well, we're North American" argument doesnt fly with me beacause technically speaking Mexico is in North America too.   Bottom line is, Ideally I'd rather have those cars (be it a Monte, a Charger, Magnum, or truck) built here rather than Canada/Mexico and I wouldnt feel the least bit of simpathy or pity for Canadians/Mexicans if one day all the manufacturers said "we're closing all our plants there and moving back home" if it meant more jobs for our own.  We gotta look out for "A #1". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but its the cold, hard truth.

[MichaelRW]

A little redundancy here.....but GM is hemorrhaging red ink because their production costs in the US are out of control and their market share diminishes each year. To place blame, it goes partially to the unions and partially to the management. The Wall Street Journal printed two days ago that although some US operations were be closed or downsized, their operations in China are now in an expansion role.

But the real problem boils down to market share. GM's market share about 30-40 years ago was over 50%. Now it is in the mid 20% range. If they still had the 50% market share they would be in fat city and the wages & benefits cost would not be a problem.

I don't think that downsizing capacity is the way to go. They need to again build cars and trucks that the American public wants to buy. I have owned GM cars since 1967 when I bought my first one which was a used 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible. My last one was a 1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi which I accumulated 35,000 miles in 5 years. That car was such a POS I swore I would never buy another GM product and haven't.

I really hate to see this happening to GM or to any other American company.

[Todd Wilson]

I bet the top executives at GM will still get their million dollar a year wages and benefits. In fact they will probably cut jobs and real estate (trimming the fat) and make the #'s look good for the stock holders and cash in on million dollar bonus's. The top executives are not concerned with Joe Schmoe on the line setting engines in, They are concerned with taking care of the stock holders and making their big fat bonus's at the top.

If you were a "top executive" at General Motors, would you be concerned about your million dollar bonus or would you be concerned about the guy on the line that installs seats, dashboards etc?   Please answer honestly!

I wouldnt give a rats ass about the guy on the line. I would have my dick so far in the GM company it wouldnt be funnny! Thats what the executives do in the big corporations. That is what is wrong with all the big companys!

Every so many years the big executives retire and some more move up. I'd like to see a CEO or President hired and keep his job for 30 years and at the end of his career he gets his fat bonus based on the #'s of the company for all those years. Then and only then would there be incentive for management to run things the right way! They dont care about 25 years from now. They care for the next 5-8 years and thats it.   


You wait and see how this comes out. They will cut jobs and close plants. And in 6 months I bet we will see giant bonus's paid and dividends on the stock. Thats all that matters! The top execs will be hero's for bring GM back from the dead! If we look at it more closely all they did was cut expenses instead of fixing PROBLEMS from within the company and making changes. From the inside things will still be a mess but the #'s will look good!


Todd

[Shakey]

We gotta look out for "A #1". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but its the cold, hard truth.

I know that this quote pertained to jobs in America and that you wouldn't feel pity for the Canadians / Mexicans if the plants were closed in those two countries but the harsh, cold hard truth is -

that is exactly what GM had said in the boardroom prior to making the announcement.

[Ponch ®]

We gotta look out for "A #1". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but its the cold, hard truth.

I know that this quote pertained to jobs in America and that you wouldn't feel pity for the Canadians / Mexicans if the plants were closed in those two countries but the harsh, cold hard truth is -

that is exactly what GM had said in the boardroom prior to making the announcement.

theyre a bussiness, not a charity. THAT is a cold hard truth.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

I bet the top executives at GM will still get their million dollar a year wages and benefits. In fact they will probably cut jobs and real estate (trimming the fat) and make the #'s look good for the stock holders and cash in on million dollar bonus's. The top executives are not concerned with Joe Schmoe on the line setting engines in, They are concerned with taking care of the stock holders and making their big fat bonus's at the top.

If you were a "top executive" at General Motors, would you be concerned about your million dollar bonus or would you be concerned about the guy on the line that installs seats, dashboards etc?   Please answer honestly!

I wouldnt give a rats ass about the guy on the line. I would have my dick so far in the GM company it wouldnt be funnny! Thats what the executives do in the big corporations. That is what is wrong with all the big companys!

Every so many years the big executives retire and some more move up. I'd like to see a CEO or President hired and keep his job for 30 years and at the end of his career he gets his fat bonus based on the #'s of the company for all those years. Then and only then would there be incentive for management to run things the right way! They dont care about 25 years from now. They care for the next 5-8 years and thats it.     


You wait and see how this comes out. They will cut jobs and close plants. And in 6 months I bet we will see giant bonus's paid and dividends on the stock. Thats all that matters! The top execs will be hero's for bring GM back from the dead! If we look at it more closely all they did was cut expenses instead of fixing PROBLEMS from within the company and making changes. From the inside things will still be a mess but the #'s will look good!


Todd

That's really not true.  I'd bet you anything that the executives at GM are way more worried about the company staying afloat than EITHER their bonuses OR Joe Schmoe on the line.  Why?  So they actually have a job that will pay them bonuses and give Joe Schmoe line work later on.  And don't get me started on executive bonuses being the big problem - Realize that if you took all executive salaries, benefits, and bonuses it adds up to about 1.2% of the total yearly outlays of an average Fortune 500 company.  Cut the bonuses, and then what?  You've saved 0.1%!  Woo hoo.

And there is another reason why most executives don't stay in their job for 30 years.  They tend to already be between 50 and 60 years old by the time they become the president of the company.  You want them to stay until they're 90?  And to think that they're not concerned with the long run is also not true.  If they're beholden to their stockholders, then they're beholden to the long-term investors who own the largest chunks of stock, and not the day traders who get in and out day by day.

[ChargerBill]

We gotta look out for "A #1". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but its the cold, hard truth.

Hey, I agree with this statement, but there is a problem with it also. The main problem being that THIS is exactly the mentality that has created these problems in the first place.

Frivilous Lawsuits = Entitlement mentality

Union Lobbying = Entitlement mentality

Welfare State = Entitlement mentality

CEO Bonuses = Entitlement mentality

Profitless Dividends = Entitlement mentality

The main problem with this country is the Entitlement Mentality....I should get something I didn't really earn because it's owed to me, or I should get MORE than I'm worth because so and so is, or we should move production overseas to increase the bottom line. A#1 might mean American work force to you, but to them it means shareholders and their own bank account. Until Americans take pride in America once again and patriotism becomes priority, this will keep happening. Until we take a step back and realize that American jobs are more important than increasing the bottom line by 2% this will go on - until America is bankrupt and there's not much left to salvage. Greed is at the center of it all...there are no checks and balances, and there is no looking out for the underdog or the underpriviledged anymore. During the Industrial age in this country there was more pride in America, more handouts to the TRULY needy and handups to the able bodied, more charity, more selflessness, pride in workmanship, 8 hrs work for 8 hrs pay...and this country thrived. The basic core attitude and principles in this country shifted many years ago and started down the slippery slope of the bottom line mentality - greed. Now it's all about self and getting yours.

Hey, I've got to feed my family, but I'm not going to screw anyone to do it, I'd rather live my life on the up and up. Unfortunately a lot of people have no standards...no ethics. So now we are reaping the ramifications... Yea, this is a financial issue, but it really is just as much of a social issue.

[andy74]

 :rant:on a smaller scale we are having a same issue at my dealership.we have 3 employees who are related to my boss, who havent worked or done anything productive in years,but still get a full salary.we had to let one guy go,and have had 3 techs leave in the last year because of these pricks, who say that they are"ENTILTED" to what the get.I know that we are only a 50 employee place,but its the same thing on a larger scale,hopefully a lot of the 30,000 are people who opt to retire,and let the people like us that are earning a living to support our families.

[Shakey]

:rant:on a smaller scale we are having a same issue at my dealership.we have 3 employees who are related to my boss, who havent worked or done anything productive in years,but still get a full salary.we had to let one guy go,and have had 3 techs leave in the last year because of these pricks, who say that they are"ENTILTED" to what the get.I know that we are only a 50 employee place,but its the same thing on a larger scale,hopefully a lot of the 30,000 are people who opt to retire,and let the people like us that are earning a living to support our families.

They are entitled - they are related to the Boss!  This does not necessarily mean that they earn or deserve it!

[RD]

I really do not care.  There is nothing I can do to change the unions or the management.  Sad for the people losing their jobs though.

[Silver R/T]

maybe if they were selling something better than cavaliers they would be competing with toyota, honda etc

[firefighter3931]

In reality you are trading hours for dollars and no guarantee is ever made saying if you stick it out for 30 years you will be taken care of at your retirement. As a matter of fact once you collect a check at the end of the week that is what you worked for and anything else is not owed to you by the company. You put in 40 hours you collect what is owed to you at the end of the week. Stinks yea but a good company will try to keep you loyal and happy at the company by raising your pay and giving you benefits. BUT nowhere does it say that they HAVE to give you medical, retirement, dental, 401k's etc.   that's the common accepted practice.

Wrong....it's called a collective agreement.    negotiated between the employer and employees. The workers take less wages to compensate for negotiated benefits and are entitled to them in lieu of $$$. If the employer didn't want to cover the worker's health/dental plans then they would have to negotiate increased financial compensation or risk losing their workforce.

The notoion that you work 40hrs and get paid at the end of the week,and that's it..... is pie in the sky ! Employers have an obligation to their workforce and the community at large to contribute. All i see is corporate greed and the constant demand for increased corporate welfare. Look back 50 years ago and you'll see that corporate taxes made up 70% of government tax revenues. Joe public made up the difference. Now the tables are turned and the private citizen is carrying the 90% load....led by the middle class.

A few years back in this country a "think tank" was asked by government how to increase revenues. The response was flat tax everyone at 15% and you'll have more money than you'll know what to do with. Of course this plan was never adopted for fear of the business backlash....guess they'd have a hard time giving up 15%....show's you just how much they're really paying ! Don't even get me started on the f--king oil companies who've got the politicians bought and paid for. It's about time gov't stepped up to the plate and start doing what they were elected to do.  

On the Job Losses : Yep it sucks bigtime ! The guys and gals that bust their humps day in and day out are the losers. Linework is not easy....it's tedious and mind numbing work. Those folks deserve their well earned pay and all the benefits their union has negotiated on their behalf. Because of mismanagement and incopetence they are now losing their jobs...and that's sad.

Ron

[Spartan]

I have been to allot of auto plants and when I see three or four people standing around on overtime watching one working, something is wrong with the system.  I see more effort being put to make sure someone non-union isn't working on their stuff then them actually working.... Sorry, I have seen the car companies squeezing suppliers for every nickle to the point of not being profitable.  The only place left to get money back is what you are seeing now, from their own people.  Delphi was a "testing the waters" with the union.  If they can't get the consessions domestically, they will send it out of the country.  Much of the big three is doing engineering in India, China, etc.  When you can pay a degreed engineer in India for $5/hr, even if the suck, they are still saving a pile of money, enough to absorb any mistakes.  I am not anti union, they came about because employers were treating employees poorly. But they are being paid too much for the work they do.  The average joe does not have it as good, mainly because these companies that do business with the big three cannot afford those same wages because they have been squeezed.  car companies have to be more efficient, and their labor needs to be reorganized so it will be more productive.

[ChargerBill]

I have a buddy who works in waste management for the county...I've seen how "hard" he works on MANY occasions...most of the time he is leaning on a shovel and sitting in his toll booth at the landfill. He makes $22/hr - Union Labor

I have another buddy who is a firefighter for the county. I have visited him at the firehouse at least 50 times in the last 5 years. What do I do when I get there? Sit down in the leather couches with the other 6 guys manning the station and watch cable TV. Hey, he gets called out about 3 or 4 times a year for a week at a time on land fires, but honestly (and he admits it) he spends about 75% f his time sitting around, surfing the net, watching TV, reading a book or just BSing with his crew. About 10% polishing the truck and the rest of the time actually on fire duty. He makes $63K a year PLUS, most of his actual fire duty is counted as overtime(about $6K to $8K ADDITIONAL per year) , so he's getting his salary for doing nothing and getting overtime for actually working... - Union Labor

I have a buddy who is the Placer County Manager of Transportation. He says that about 10% of the guys do 70% of the work and 90% of the guys do 20% of the work and the other 10% never gets done. When he tells me their salaries I about choke. $45K a year for a guy who can't even turn a wrench and cleans the shop most of the time. $60K if you can hold a flag or turn a stop sign on the side of the road. - Union Labor

I have a buddy who teaches at a HS in Sacramento...says it's the best job he's ever had. He has the students grade eachothers papers, he uses lessons from the years past, he shows the movies, documentaries and slideshows all the time. He smokes pot continuosly (says he's never stoned at work) says he gets to check out the hot 18 year olds and is about the laziest idiot I've ever known. He has tenure and can't get fired and makes about $52K per year with 3 months off. - Union Labor

So, anyone want to sing the praises of Union labor...go right ahead, but I guarantee that YOU yourself or someone close to you is either in or has been in a union...am I right, or am I right? A brotherhood who watches out for their own...one big happy good 'ole boys fraternity. How nice...

Hey, I got 20 more like this...I could argue against Unions all day long, but the Union guys will defend them all day long...they know which side their bread is buttered on. So while we all get screwed on rising costs of goods, utilities and services, they STILL get to put food on the table. Sure, corporations have a lot of pork at the top, and the rich keep getting richer, but I don't hear union guys complaining about their bosses getting raises...that is , UNTIL you question THEIR salaries and benefits. Then they're all too ready and willing to take the spotlight off themselves and point it elsewhere. Yeah, I have an axe to grind with unions...they're raping the economy right there along with the greedy in corporate America...they aren't any better IMO. And keep in mind, corporate America provides jobs. Do unions provide jobs? NO! But unions do make sure that for every 1 good hard working employee the 5 crappy, lazy, useless employees get paid just as well. You see, unions just make sure that they get theirs before anyone else gets anything at all. Kind of like giving the dogs a turkey carcass after you've cleaned the bones...they THINK they're getting something, but there's nothing left.

[greenpigs]

You have friends Bill?

[Shakey]

I have a buddy who works in waste management for the county...I've seen how "hard" he works on MANY occasions...most of the time he is leaning on a shovel and sitting in his toll booth at the landfill. He makes $22/hr - Union Labor

I have another buddy who is a firefighter for the county. I have visited him at the firehouse at least 50 times in the last 5 years. What do I do when I get there? Sit down in the leather couches with the other 6 guys manning the station and watch cable TV. Hey, he gets called out about 3 or 4 times a year for a week at a time on land fires, but honestly (and he admits it) he spends about 75% f his time sitting around, surfing the net, watching TV, reading a book or just BSing with his crew. About 10% polishing the truck and the rest of the time actually on fire duty. He makes $63K a year PLUS, most of his actual fire duty is counted as overtime(about $6K to $8K ADDITIONAL per year) , so he's getting his salary for doing nothing and getting overtime for actually working... - Union Labor

I have a buddy who is the Placer County Manager of Transportation. He says that about 10% of the guys do 70% of the work and 90% of the guys do 20% of the work and the other 10% never gets done. When he tells me their salaries I about choke. $45K a year for a guy who can't even turn a wrench and cleans the shop most of the time. $60K if you can hold a flag or turn a stop sign on the side of the road. - Union Labor

I have a buddy who teaches at a HS in Sacramento...says it's the best job he's ever had. He has the students grade eachothers papers, he uses lessons from the years past, he shows the movies, documentaries and slideshows all the time. He smokes pot continuosly (says he's never stoned at work) says he gets to check out the hot 18 year olds and is about the laziest idiot I've ever known. He has tenure and can't get fired and makes about $52K per year with 3 months off. - Union Labor

So, anyone want to sing the praises of Union labor...go right ahead, but I guarantee that YOU yourself or someone close to you is either in or has been in a union...am I right, or am I right? A brotherhood who watches out for their own...one big happy good 'ole boys fraternity. How nice...

Hey, I got 20 more like this...I could argue against Unions all day long, but the Union guys will defend them all day long...they know which side their bread is buttered on. So while we all get screwed on rising costs of goods, utilities and services, they STILL get to put food on the table. Sure, corporations have a lot of pork at the top, and the rich keep getting richer, but I don't hear union guys complaining about their bosses getting raises...that is , UNTIL you question THEIR salaries and benefits. Then they're all too ready and willing to take the spotlight off themselves and point it elsewhere. Yeah, I have an axe to grind with unions...they're raping the economy right there along with the greedy in corporate America...they aren't any better IMO. And keep in mind, corporate America provides jobs. Do unions provide jobs? NO! But unions do make sure that for every 1 good hard working employee the 5 crappy, lazy, useless employees get paid just as well. You see, unions just make sure that they get theirs before anyone else gets anything at all. Kind of like giving the dogs a turkey carcass after you've cleaned the bones...they THINK they're getting something, but there's nothing left.

A few weeks back you asked the members of this site "what should I do for a living" or something along those lines.  Well, why don't you contact one of your buddies and get on board with what their doing?  Sounds like easy money!