Elacruze 505" engine build

[elacruze]

I'm getting close to assembling (re-assembling) the 505" motor for my '68. I'll move this thread to proven combos once it's finished and dyno'd.

Tip o' the hat to Ron (Firefighter3931) and Challenger340 for their experience and input. That said, as I usually do I'm stirring everyone's advice into my own soup. We'll see how it turns out.
I had to make some difficult choices about my expected usage; I'm going on long tours, and drivability is paramount; I'd like a 600hp motor but I don't think that's realistic given my high mileage and traffic situations. I'm not willing to settle for a stock 318 either, so I'm testing some oddball stuff to see what happens.

Here's the basics;
440 block, +.030" w/4.250" stroke.
-17cc 440source pistons, zero deck.
Edelbrock performer RPM heads, stock ports, milled to 74cc's
Cometic head gaskets, .027" compressed.
That all stacks up to 10.6:1 static compression with .027" quench.

Valve train;
Hughes Engines 1.6:1 roller rockers on slotted shafts
Comp Cams 26918 beehive springs with steel retainers. Installed pressures will be 160/seat 380/open, whichever is lesser.
<edit> (ended up with Ferrea Beehive springs because the Comps were not strong enough)
Schubeck-style composite base solid lifters (these require the high spring pressure)
Smith Bros. pushrods
The stick is a custom grind by Jim Dowell at Racer Brown. RB has been the subject of much debate through many forums, but after talking to a LOT of people and to Jim himself I ordered from him. He's a personality to be sure, but he knows what he's talking about. Specs;
.572" lift
238* duration @.050"
110* LSA
107* Intake CL
This cam takes advantage of the large Mopar lifter diameter and the composite base lifters, with aggressive ramps and a big lift for the duration.

I tossed camshafts around for months, took recommendations and finally decided that if I don't like a cam, it only costs a little to change it later.

Exhaust was another thought torture, I decided to stick with the 2" Hooker Super Competition (2x36x3.5) because I had them ceramic coated, I already own them, and I was very happy with the drivability on a 11:1 .509 cammed 440. Plus I'm a cheapskate and TTI's are not free. I can change later, again. I'll back up the headers with a 3" X-pipe into mufflers and 2.5" outlets. I have to do some custom work to accommodate the Gear Vendors and the X-pipe. I may have to give in to an H-pipe.

I did get spendy on an Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper/windage tray. These are worth a lot more than most people know.
Under that is a Mancini 6-quart Hemi pan and 1/2" pickup.
I tried to work an electric water pump into the equation but can't get around the reliability/availability of a standard pump.

Topping it off will be a Weiand S/S ram manifold, massaged by Hughes Engines with port EFI and electronic engine management by Electromotive. Jenvey supplied the pair of 70mm throttle bodies. I'll post up pics of the pieces as we go.
<edit> Linky to car resto thread; http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66411.msg744819.html#msg744819
To be continued.

[RECHRGD]

Sounds like a nice combo!  I had to lose my X pipe and go to a H pipe when I got the Gear Vendors unit.  Bob

[Belgium R/T -68]

Really looking forward to this build. Good Luck.

Per

[elacruze]

Here's a couple shots of the manifold with injector ports installed. I'll have to use Pico injectors due to the restricted headspace. The injectors are aimed right along the path of highest port charge density and velocity.
I'd like to find another plenum top to modify, but I may just cut the middle out of this 6-pack top and build a new plenum on that. The top arrangement can't be determined until I get the hood on and measure underhood clearance.

[elacruze]

Here are the Jenvey 70mm throttle bodies. Most Americans have never heard of Jenvey-they're English and found mostly on smaller engines. Drivability is key, and with huge throttle bodies the tip-in is usually horrible. Jenvey uses a progressive lever-linkage to provide a high travel-to-plate ratio off idle, which lowers exponentially approaching full throttle so low-speed control should be very good.

I can mount these on 65mm centers if necessary. I haven't determined the final configuration.

[elacruze]

I have to do some homework on plenum volume then discover my packaging constraints and pipe in an intake/air filter system.

[elacruze]

Schubeck lifters. These are an older set of Schubecks, I talked with Don Gould at www.4secondsflat.com and we're confident that these are the high-quality stuff, not the infamous later ones. I found these on Craigslist for $400. They're like jewelry, too bad you can't see them when they're working.

These are supposed to be magic, allowing near roller-cam ramps and no worries about ZDDP and oil additives, etc. Of course I'll continue to run Royal Purple racing non-SAE rated 10w40.

We'll see if they last as long as the Pyramids.

[firefighter3931]

Very cool....lots of one-off parts and some neat fabrication. 

That wiend high ram is an excellent intake manifold....should work awesome on a 500 incher. I suppose this means you'll be looking at hood scoops huh Eric ?

The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build. 



Ron

[elacruze]

No hood scoops for me...although I have no idea how much room there is. Since this manifold is supposed to put the stock 6-pack carbs in the stock location (I don't know that to be true, either) I figure a side- or front-entry plenum should be easy enough to organize; the only problem being plenum volume and distance from the throttles to the valves. I have to wrap it all up without creating any restrictions on the way to the heads. From the floor to gasket surface, the manifold is about 8-1/2" tall, IIRC about the same as my M1 so I should have room to build a plenum that works ok.
I still have the option of spacing the K-frame down, too if it's too close. I'd like to have had these parts to size up before the engine was out, but this has been evolving while I was overseas and couldn't get hands-on.

If I can't get away without a scoop, I'll set the throttles directly over the ports, downdraft. That would be the easiest to assemble and filter, but I don't care for scoops on Chargers.

Quench...well, since the motor should be all in by 6000 I don't expect to stretch and bend enough to worry about. I usually set H-D motors at .032" quench, with as much as 4-3/4" stroke and those cranks will give up .010" in flex by 6000. Never hurt one so far, and they really like it tight-they run noticeably cooler in traffic with a tighter setup when they have reasonable cams and stout compression. I think it keeps the pressure out of the ring area and eliminates that much more potential detonation. Maybe it doesn't matter in a water cooler anyway, but we have to choose sides somewhere, right?
What's your thoughts on the Q distance?

[elacruze]

Nothing ever goes as planned...two steps back and one forward.

My valve springs are too weak. Anybody need a set of Comp Cams beehives, 125# on the seat at 1.885"?

My high-tech unnecessary cam button has issues...the bearing doesn't clear the bolt heads and the whole thing doesn't fit under the timing cover. What to do? Here's my solution.
Pics;
1. Timing cover to block gap.
2. Tools required; Sockets and arbor press.
3. Squeeze it just right.
4. Look for contact...had to squeeze a little more, and will still have to put the bolts in the valve grinder to reduce radius and touch off the top corners.
5. Viola!

[elacruze]

more

[firefighter3931]

Eric,

Header bolts with a 3/8 hex head work fine and will clear the thrust button, no problem.  Just wondering why all the trouble for a flat tappet cam where end play is a non issue ? The cam won't walk forward once the valvetrain is loaded   

Nice job on the mods to make it all fit 



Ron

[Long Island RT]

Sweet engine build - looking forward to what kind of power it makes.

Also - now make sure your water pump doesn't interfere with your timing cover modification.

I have a very similar setup with regards to the block and heads.  I think my Ross pistons have 14cc valve reliefs and I'm using felpro perma torque head gasket.  My compression is a calculated 10.8:1   I do have do mess with my fuel to get a ping free 36° total advance. 

[elacruze]

Eric,

Header bolts with a 3/8 hex head work fine and will clear the thrust button, no problem.  Just wondering why all the trouble for a flat tappet cam where end play is a non issue ? The cam won't walk forward once the valvetrain is loaded   

Nice job on the mods to make it all fit 



Ron

Why? Because it's there, lol. Sometimes I overthink things, and it wasn't very expensive. Perhaps that's because it doesn't fit!
I suppose they'd blame the cam manufacturer for drilling the holes too close together.
Being a class A justificator, I can tell myself that if I move up to a roller cam the button will already be there. 


Header bolts...I should have thought of that. I'm sure we have some around. Thanks for that. Red loctite?

Any Black Pig updates?

[elacruze]

Sweet engine build - looking forward to what kind of power it makes.

Also - now make sure your water pump doesn't interfere with your timing cover modification.

I have a very similar setup with regards to the block and heads.  I think my Ross pistons have 14cc valve reliefs and I'm using felpro perma torque head gasket.  My compression is a calculated 10.8:1   I do have do mess with my fuel to get a ping free 36° total advance. 

My calculated static compression is 10.6:1, and I'm going back into the combustion chambers to remove the small eyebrow at the intake valve exit area. The .050"-.100" lift flow is very important, and the little shelf is about .070 tall by the look of it. A careful swipe with a round cutter and a sacrificial intake valve to protect the seats should do it, and lose no more than 1/2cc.

Ping-free advance with 93 octane is precisely why I'm crushing the quench distance. My cam has only 238* duration @ .050" which will build a lot of low-RPM cylinder pressure.
I wish I had an engine dyno available, but the nearest one is 2-3 hours away so I'm limited to a chassis dyno. I'm only about 45 minutes away from Moroso drag strip, so time slips will be the ultimate measure of how well this combination works.

[firefighter3931]

Header bolts...I should have thought of that. I'm sure we have some around. Thanks for that. Red loctite?

Any Black Pig updates?

Yep, red loctite is what i've used 

Black Pig will hopefully going out for another T&T day...weather permitting. 

I have trans issues....line pressure is down at lower engine speeds (checked it with a guage driving) so the trans needs to come out this fall/winter. Not looking forward to that ! At 2500 it's fine so i'll just bring it up on the brakes and launch. The pump appears to have too much clearance. Valvebody was pulled and checked out fine.

Went over the engine and mechanicly it's perfect....compression and valvetrain are right where they're supposed to be. No signs of detonation...the plugs are light brown with the straps showing 1/2 way up so the heat range is fine. Going to check the fuel system over closely and make sure all's well. Last time out i ran low on fuel so it was starving on the top end. These big strokers eat a LOT of GAS....much more than the old 446. 

Gonna top off the tank just to make sure....the extra ballast certainly won't hurt the short times with this traction challenged beast. Those 720 ftlbs are hard to get planted on a 10in tire. 


Ron

[tan top]

good stuff !!

clever idea on the timing cover   

[BSB67]

"The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build."

I've seen them hit at 0.030 on a SBC.

Check to make sure that your water pump doesn't hit your timing cover depression.  You should be okay, I think there is about 1/4 inch.

[elacruze]

"The only thing that concerns me is the .027 quench.....that's pretty tight for a street build."

I've seen them hit at 0.030 on a SBC.

Check to make sure that your water pump doesn't hit your timing cover depression.  You should be okay, I think there is about 1/4 inch.

Yup, I'm taking a bit of a chance. But, it does have Eagle rods and I don't expect the engine ever to see the high side of 6200 RPM. I will scope the bores after a couple hundred easy miles, and if there's evidence of contact I'll have to get some thicker gaskets.
I know that .027" isn't the tightest ever seen, either.

Water pump clearance, yeah. I ogled the recent thread showing the ARP bolts tearing out the cover. Worst case is I toss the button or relieve the WP housing.

[greenpigs]

   So why wait with going with a slightly thicker gasket? How much would say a .010 thicker gasket effect your CR? It sounds like cheap insurance, but my balls dried up years ago when I got married AGAIN.

[elacruze]

   So why wait with going with a slightly thicker gasket? How much would say a .010 thicker gasket effect your CR? It sounds like cheap insurance, but my balls dried up years ago when I got married AGAIN.

It's not about compression, it's about detonation.

Quick and dirty explanation; a flame can propagate through a stoichiometric mixture of gas & air until an orifice is smaller than about .040". So, I've always figured that with the additional heat and turbulence of a combustion chamber a quench distance of less than .040" is necessary to defeat detonation entirely. I don't have a laboratory to scientifically verify how much quench distance exists during actual operation, so I can only take a WAG. I know that some engines actually increase quench distance with RPM due to crank flex, and I haven't seen any information around the web showing pictures of piston-to-head contact at a given quench distance for RB Mopars.

I have, however, banged a few pistons into heads on other motors and I know that the actual damage is pretty minimal even in the worst circumstances. Rubbing the carbon off the shelf once in a blue moon for a moment won't hurt anything.

[elacruze]

FINALLY got the valve train assembled...

Worst was having to wait for the machine shop to shorten the rockershaft clamps. I bought them through Hughes, they look like Indy (Hughes works pretty close with them) and fit like it too. I got about a 3" stack of rocker arm shims when what I needed was shorter spacers. A couple I flat filed .005"-.010", but the long ones needed .025"-.035" off both ends, and the holes weren't centered in any of the clamps. Disappointed, but in the end they fit the shaft well and do the job.

This jewelry cost a bunch, I sure hope it lasts like the pyramids. Ferrea beehive springs, Schubeck lifters, Smith Bros. pushrods, Hughes 1.6 Rockers, grooved shafts, and billet clamps.

Special   to Smith brothers for pointing out that with the stock Eddy Performer RPM heads I'd have clearance issues with pushrod holes, so went with .080" wall 5/16". (I think, I'll check the card again tomorrow)

[elacruze]

Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper. They didn't have a pattern for the 4.250" stroke so they winged it and I had some cutting to do, but all in about 2 hours of careful fitting. Awesome.

[elacruze]

One step closer. Tomorrow I'll get the accessories lined up then detail all the brackets and spacers, hopefully set it all on the K member.
Oh and happy day-discovered that either the kids messed with my camera settings, or I pocket-dialed all my settings messed up. Back to real colors.

<edit>
I just realized I didn't explain this intake in this thread. This is the first edition EFI, a Holley dual-quad TBI setup on an Edelbrock dual plane manifold. Should be awesome drivability and efficiency with very good power.

[six-tee-nine]

I hate to sound like a moron, but willing to learn, I'm asking anyway : What's the scraper on the crank for. Sure I understand what it might be for, but what should the benefit be of scraping the oil from the crank counters?