TRIPLE GOLD OE DAYTONA DISPLAY 2012 Mopar Nationals

[ECS]

I guess its been a while since I looked at pics of your car.  I could have sworn it was a 383 in there. 

Here is a link that shows additional interior photos and some of the details surrounding the restoration.  You can click on the pictures to enlarge the images.

http://www.moparaction.com/Article/PoP/PoP.html

[resq302]

   Thanks Dave.  Again, simply amazing car!

[ECS]

  Thanks Dave.  Again, simply amazing car!

Too bad I couldn't enter it in the 2012 Nationals for re-certification.  I tried but was given the run around after the Power Steering Fluid debacle in 2010.  (The Head Judge didn't like it when his incompetence was exposed concerning that situation.)  I would LOVED to have gone head to head with the other white car!  Slam dunk!

[resq302]

How funny would that have been if you had topped your old score?   Although, they might not have allowed that to happen.

[ECS]

How funny would that have been if you had topped your old score?   Although, they might not have allowed that to happen.

I was deducted 17 points for having oil on my bare metal parts.  I had not developed RPM yet so the oily parts were my largest deduction.  Since the 2010 Nationals, the other 4.5 points have been "corrected" along with the metal parts that were covered in oil.  (Out of 2801 possible points, I was deducted 21.5)  That being said, you would think the car might receive a perfect OE score but something tells me that new deductions would mysteriously be discovered.  Lets not forget that one of the areas I was deducted for was because my 70 Challenger did not have its certi-warranty card.  I was able to "fix" that rather easily due to the fact that no 1970 Chrysler vehicle came from the Factory with one.  We were told in 2010 that no car would ever receive a perfect score.  And why not?  The criteria for doing an OE car should not be subjectively based on an infinite scale of outcomes or possibilities!  I was deducted for phantom things like "red" power steering fluid and certi-warranty cards, while other contestants were given free passes on REAL infractions like base/clear paint, incorrect paint-overspray & undercoat patterns, reproduction parts, wrong assembly features & procedures, phoney "home made" looking finishes, etc......

[DAY CLONA]

How funny would that have been if you had topped your old score?   Although, they might not have allowed that to happen.

I was deducted 17 points for having oil on my bare metal parts.  I had not developed RPM yet so the oily parts were my largest deduction.  Since the 2010 Nationals, the other 4.5 points have been "corrected" along with the metal parts that were covered in oil.  (Out of 2801 possible points, I was deducted 21.5)  That being said, you would think the car might receive a perfect OE score but something tells me that new deductions would mysteriously be discovered.  Lets not forget that one of the areas I was deducted for was because my 70 Challenger did not have its certi-warranty card.  I was able to "fix" that rather easily due to the fact that no 1970 Chrysler vehicle came from the Factory with one.  We were told in 2010 that no car would ever receive a perfect score.  And why not?  The criteria for doing an OE car should not be subjectively based on an infinite scale of outcomes or possibilities!  I was deducted for phantom things like "red" power steering fluid and certi-warranty cards, while other contestants were given free passes on REAL infractions like base/clear paint, incorrect paint-overspray & undercoat patterns, reproduction parts, wrong assembly features & procedures, phoney "home made" looking finishes, etc......

Dave,....it's said,"The most difficult part of attaining perfection, is finding something to do as an encore", ...well I think you achieved that with the Challenger and the Valiant, it'll be a long time before anyone even comes close to the effort you put forth, never mind surpasses it,... if that's even possible?

Mike

[resq302]

How funny would that have been if you had topped your old score?   Although, they might not have allowed that to happen.

I was deducted 17 points for having oil on my bare metal parts.  I had not developed RPM yet so the oily parts were my largest deduction.  Since the 2010 Nationals, the other 4.5 points have been "corrected" along with the metal parts that were covered in oil.  (Out of 2801 possible points, I was deducted 21.5)  That being said, you would think the car might receive a perfect OE score but something tells me that new deductions would mysteriously be discovered.  Lets not forget that one of the areas I was deducted for was because my 70 Challenger did not have its certi-warranty card.  I was able to "fix" that rather easily due to the fact that no 1970 Chrysler vehicle came from the Factory with one.  We were told in 2010 that no car would ever receive a perfect score.  And why not?  The criteria for doing an OE car should not be subjectively based on an infinite scale of outcomes or possibilities!  I was deducted for phantom things like "red" power steering fluid and certi-warranty cards, while other contestants were given free passes on REAL infractions like base/clear paint, incorrect paint-overspray & undercoat patterns, reproduction parts, wrong assembly features & procedures, phoney "home made" looking finishes, etc......

Dave,

Im sure if that you even were to somehow travel back through time, purchase a brand new car off the lot and stick it away in a climate controlled sealed up garage or bubble, then unwrap it and take that practically zero mile car to this show, the judges would find something wrong with it.  This very thing (ok, maybe no time travel) was done by the AACA at a national judging seminar where they had a brand new Pontiac Solstice brought in to be "judged" as if this vehicle was and survived 25 yrs in this factory assembled condition.  If I remember correctly, out of the 150 people attending the seminar who were already AACA national judges, only one had said that the car should have gotten a perfect score of 400.  The other judges were complaining about how the pin striping wasn't perfect or slightly misaligned and how there was weld splatter on the intake manifold, but the person giving the seminar agreed with the one person who said it should have received a perfect score.  Reason- Thats how the factory had made it!  Just because it is pretty and nice and neat doesn't mean it is correct or how the factory could have done it!

[Chris G.]

Just because it is pretty and nice and neat doesn't mean it is correct or how the factory could have done it!

That's funny Brian...coming from you.  

[resq302]

Now Chris, if you look at my charger close enough, you will find paint runs and orange peel on the exterior paint.  Also, the gaps on my doors are not perfect either.  To top it off, my charger even has a factory mistake which still has not been corrected.

[ECS]

Dave,....it's said,"The most difficult part of attaining perfection, is finding something to do as an encore", ...well I think you achieved that with the Challenger and the Valiant, it'll be a long time before anyone even comes close to the effort you put forth, never mind surpasses it,... if that's even possible?

Mike

You are MUCH too nice Mike!!  Coming from a Master Craftsman like yourself, I really am humbled by your sentiments.  Thank you very much for the kind words of support.     

[ECS]

Hi Master B!  It's one thing to have the Judges mess with a contestant but it is totally unacceptable when a competitor has a relationship with a crooked magazine editor who does his best to demean and disparage the other guys.  It is sad what Gene & John have had to experience regarding the bogus coverage that has ensued following the Show.  Lies told about Gene's car!  Lies told about John's car!  I'll tell you for a FACT that Gene AND John's cars had more ORIGINAL parts than the "other" competitor who has been on a tirade crying about the results.  His editor buddy can't re-write History no matter how hard he tries.  Since they continue to conjure up lies about the other contestants, why not bring some archived information back regarding the "rust free" white car as it pertains to the "Body".  Remember how they said the "Body" did not include the floor pans of a car?  What about the Doors?  Are they considered part of the Body?  Rather than cover that topic in this thread, let's answer that question in the thread that centered around the actual topic.  I'm sure that the "Honest" folks won't mind the discussion being revisited since they continue to spin things in a negative manner regarding Gene & John's restoration!  

[WilliesDaytona]

OEOEOEO, who cares, stock s^@t stinks, add some personality to any of those cars and then you would have something, dont get me wrong they are all great looking cars but they are boring, about like going to the dealer and looking at the same new challenger over and over with a different color, add some good wheels and tires, a tach, headers, aluminum intake, a big cam, an maybe a hoodscoop, then you would have something special and a real mopar the way most were back in the day.

[69 OUR/TEA]

What I'd like to comment,what a horrible shame that a couple die hard Mopar hobbiest take their level of a OE concours resto to, with all their hard work,researching,parts hunting,etc and then try to enjoy the fruits of their labor,but instead to have to deal with this kind of outcome.As if it's not hard enough to do a full blown resto of that caliber,now you have to put up your boxing gloves for defense and be ready for punches from different angles?
I know both Gene and John,great guys,great cars,and applaud their efforts.Can't really speak about Tony or his car,never dealt with him,other than him buying parts from me at Carlisle for resale at his spot.
The hobby is supposed to be fun, view all the restored cars,gain knowledge and information, get to know people, make friends,etc,in turn,ends up like big highschool drama.

[resq302]

I think the underlying problem is that some people try and either make up stories about their car to make their car appear better than what it was so people feel bad for them that it should have scored better than what it did OR that they complain to the judges trying to get the judges to change a score to either drop the score of the other cars or raise their score some how.  Either way, I think it is pretty low.  Especially when you rip apart someones car when the judges are near!

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Again, it seems like someone who "contributes" to the show or company hosting the show seems to come out on top with whatever kind of work has been done.

It's funny how things continue to expose themselves following the different Shows that these cars are entered in.  I heard from a reliable source (who witnessed this first hand) that one of the participants who did not have a "perfect" score at the conclusion of the MCACN Show, ended up getting a "perfect" score AFTER the event was over!  One of the Daytona contestants was arguing with the judges after the judging was complete, regarding characteristics exhibited on his vehicle.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a person with a perfect score wouldn't have a reason to argue their results if they already had a "perfect" score.  He was following the judges like a lap dog trying to appeal his deductions.  After a little arguing and some continued Show sponsorship promises.....PRESTO.....a "perfect" score magically occurred!  Too bad some folks can't walk the walk and have to rely on extra curricular efforts to "win" a phony award.  It makes you wonder how a person of integrity and/or character can feel ANY pride knowing that their results are influenced by disingenuous shenanigans.  It appears that Political payoffs are not only occurring in Washington DC.  

Just so you guys all know.  This above is all a complete lie about the MCACN show.  Nothing got changed, nothing got moved around.  All the totals are calculated by people separate from judging.  And they are presented the information.

What ever they got at the MCACN show is what they got.  It was not changed later.  I was there.

Ryan

[hemigeno]

What ever they got at the MCACN show is what they got.  It was not changed later.

My score WAS changed later (and not for the better, nor did I argue or complain even though it was total BS).  Fact.

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Wow, I just got an email from someone, on this board. But wow, some people have some serious problems they need to work out.

FORGET I SAID ANYTHING.

Ryan

[resq302]

Again, it is all how high of a person you know, pay, or whatever to get the desired result that you want.  Some people do it the honest and fair way and others lie, cheat, steal, bribe, etc to showcase their car as being the best even though the story is a complete lie.

[moparstuart]

What ever they got at the MCACN show is what they got.  It was not changed later.

My score WAS changed later (and not for the better, nor did I argue or complain even though it was total BS).  Fact.

WOW     

[hemigeno]

What do you mean by "later".

"Later" in this instance means between the time that the judges left my car with my signature on the judging sheet and when I received my judging sheet after the awards were handed out.  That is absolutely, positively what happened with my car despite any protestations to the contrary.  I know it's not supposed to work that way, and regardless of what happened, I actually do enjoy the MCACN show for the wide variety of great muscle cars which it attracts (Furry People notwithstanding).

As far as some of the other MCACN-related comments posted recently, I'm not the only one who witnessed one other participant's actions, and those discussions were most definitely held after this person's car was "judged".  A comment was made within the group I was with to the effect that "it was time for the political lobbying to kick in."  IMHO, that's exactly what happened and I am not the only one to make this exact same observation. 

I could have appealed each and every one of the (very few) deductions my car was given, and John Antonelli plus a few other participants I know could have done the same after looking at their sheets.  At the time I intentionally chose to take the high road and leave well enough alone.  If someone now wants to use MCACN's judging results in an attempt to "prove" that their car is, in fact, a better restored vehicle, OR to invalidate another venue's judging results, I know that conclusion is not grounded in reality.  That's based on my own personal observations of how things were handled as well as my knowledge of what's correct and what's not.  If that's not a politically-correct statement to make, oh well.  These judging results are all in the book already, and I don't care about having any record "set straight" or my own score changed.  That simply doesn't matter to me - but I chuckle every time I see such a reference to the results (or at least certain ones) since it's not reflective of the truth.

[hemigeno]

Let me add that I actually agree with folks who say that stuff like this doesn't really matter.  Cars are not what's important in life.  People are what's important.

I'd much rather leave all this in the past and move forward, but to sit on the sidelines is to invite the revisionist historians to do their thing.

Pardon my last post if it seems pompous and overbearing.  Those that know me, also know that this petty bickering stuff is not what I'm all about. It's hard to express everything that's happened within the confines of a couple of posts on an internet forum.  I've also tried to maintain some semblance of neutrality, but there comes a point that I have to speak out even if it's not what I would rather do.

My apologies for the 

[resq302]

Let me add that I actually agree with folks who say that stuff like this doesn't really matter.  Cars are not what's important in life.  People are what's important.

I'd much rather leave all this in the past and move forward, but to sit on the sidelines is to invite the revisionist historians to do their thing.

Pardon my last post if it seems pompous and overbearing.  Those that know me, also know that this petty bickering stuff is not what I'm all about. It's hard to express everything that's happened within the confines of a couple of posts on an internet forum.  I've also tried to maintain some semblance of neutrality, but there comes a point that I have to speak out even if it's not what I would rather do.

My apologies for the 

What do you mean by "later".

"Later" in this instance means between the time that the judges left my car with my signature on the judging sheet and when I received my judging sheet after the awards were handed out.  That is absolutely, positively what happened with my car despite any protestations to the contrary.  I know it's not supposed to work that way, and regardless of what happened, I actually do enjoy the MCACN show for the wide variety of great muscle cars which it attracts (Furry People notwithstanding).

As far as some of the other MCACN-related comments posted recently, I'm not the only one who witnessed one other participant's actions, and those discussions were most definitely held after this person's car was "judged".  A comment was made within the group I was with to the effect that "it was time for the political lobbying to kick in."  IMHO, that's exactly what happened and I am not the only one to make this exact same observation. 

I could have appealed each and every one of the (very few) deductions my car was given, and John Antonelli plus a few other participants I know could have done the same after looking at their sheets.  At the time I intentionally chose to take the high road and leave well enough alone.  If someone now wants to use MCACN's judging results in an attempt to "prove" that their car is, in fact, a better restored vehicle, OR to invalidate another venue's judging results, I know that conclusion is not grounded in reality.  That's based on my own personal observations of how things were handled as well as my knowledge of what's correct and what's not.  If that's not a politically-correct statement to make, oh well.  These judging results are all in the book already, and I don't care about having any record "set straight" or my own score changed.  That simply doesn't matter to me - but I chuckle every time I see such a reference to the results (or at least certain ones) since it's not reflective of the truth.

Where is the like button?!     

[dyslexic teddybear]

Let me add that I actually agree with folks who say that stuff like this doesn't really matter.  Cars are not what's important in life.  People are what's important.

I'd much rather leave all this in the past and move forward, but to sit on the sidelines is to invite the revisionist historians to do their thing.

Pardon my last post if it seems pompous and overbearing.  Those that know me, also know that this petty bickering stuff is not what I'm all about. It's hard to express everything that's happened within the confines of a couple of posts on an internet forum.  I've also tried to maintain some semblance of neutrality, but there comes a point that I have to speak out even if it's not what I would rather do.

My apologies for the 

What do you mean by "later".

"Later" in this instance means between the time that the judges left my car with my signature on the judging sheet and when I received my judging sheet after the awards were handed out.  That is absolutely, positively what happened with my car despite any protestations to the contrary.  I know it's not supposed to work that way, and regardless of what happened, I actually do enjoy the MCACN show for the wide variety of great muscle cars which it attracts (Furry People notwithstanding).

As far as some of the other MCACN-related comments posted recently, I'm not the only one who witnessed one other participant's actions, and those discussions were most definitely held after this person's car was "judged".  A comment was made within the group I was with to the effect that "it was time for the political lobbying to kick in."  IMHO, that's exactly what happened and I am not the only one to make this exact same observation. 

I could have appealed each and every one of the (very few) deductions my car was given, and John Antonelli plus a few other participants I know could have done the same after looking at their sheets.  At the time I intentionally chose to take the high road and leave well enough alone.  If someone now wants to use MCACN's judging results in an attempt to "prove" that their car is, in fact, a better restored vehicle, OR to invalidate another venue's judging results, I know that conclusion is not grounded in reality.  That's based on my own personal observations of how things were handled as well as my knowledge of what's correct and what's not.  If that's not a politically-correct statement to make, oh well.  These judging results are all in the book already, and I don't care about having any record "set straight" or my own score changed.  That simply doesn't matter to me - but I chuckle every time I see such a reference to the results (or at least certain ones) since it's not reflective of the truth.

Where is the like button?!     

Well put......so no apologies needed.

Drama aside, one benefit from the discussion, more people are aware of the possible fake issue.

When buying......a BS isn't the only thing to look at. Buyer beware!

[Bashton]

Again, it seems like someone who "contributes" to the show or company hosting the show seems to come out on top with whatever kind of work has been done.

It's funny how things continue to expose themselves following the different Shows that these cars are entered in.  I heard from a reliable source (who witnessed this first hand) that one of the participants who did not have a "perfect" score at the conclusion of the MCACN Show, ended up getting a "perfect" score AFTER the event was over!  One of the Daytona contestants was arguing with the judges after the judging was complete, regarding characteristics exhibited on his vehicle.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a person with a perfect score wouldn't have a reason to argue their results if they already had a "perfect" score.  He was following the judges like a lap dog trying to appeal his deductions.  After a little arguing and some continued Show sponsorship promises.....PRESTO.....a "perfect" score magically occurred!  Too bad some folks can't walk the walk and have to rely on extra curricular efforts to "win" a phony award.  It makes you wonder how a person of integrity and/or character can feel ANY pride knowing that their results are influenced by disingenuous shenanigans.  It appears that Political payoffs are not only occurring in Washington DC.  

Paul; first off, congrats on your accomplishments with your Challenger. It is indeed one of the finest restorations I have had the pleasure of personally viewing.

Now on to the facts;

1.First and foremost, I want to make it clear that we do not do OE judging or use the OE criteria at the MCACN show. Our 4-page Concours and Concours Day 2 judging sheets were written specifically for OUR show. We use a 1,000 point scale, with deductions taken from 1,000 based on these judging sheets. We do not require original or NOS parts, and do allow reproduction parts if they are deemed appropriate.
2. There were absolutely NO "perfect scores" at the 2012 MCACN show. Zip-zero-zilch. Regardless of who your reliable sources may be, the facts are the facts.
3. We are very proud of the fact that we require of judges to go over the judging sheets personally with the owner or designated owners rep, so that any and all possible discrepancies can be addressed ONSITE and immediately. If an owner disagrees with any of the judges findings and can not clearly prove to the judge any differences of opinion, they sign at the bottom with a simple "I disagree" which signals our staff to call in our judging supervisor to re-evaluate the car. If the judging supervisor is not able to come to a decision on the possible discrepancy, he calls in addition marque experts, who weigh in until a majority ruling is made. All of this is clearly explained to the participant IF he has sign off on the sheet "I Disagree. to the best of my knowledge, we are the only show that operates in this manner.
4. We do not publicize the final total points earned. This is for the owner to disclose at his/her own discretion. If an owner wishes to claim he has a 999 point car when he really has a 951 point car, (both being "Gold" level under our criteria), that would be between himself and his conscience.
5. The ACTUAL SHEETS are tallied after the owner signs off on them, (with either "I agree" or "I Disagree") and triple checked for accuracy in the point tally. At this point, they are turned over to the Judging supervisor for final sign off.
6. There was NEVER any talk of potential sponsorship deals or any other of your implied incentives made to the MCACN show. We quite simply value our integrity much more than any possible financial gain to our bottom line.

I rarely get involved in judging discussions, but in this case, I recommend that you do your research before posting derogatory comments regarding the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals show, or any other show for that matter.

I would like to again invite you to join us at our upcoming show in Chicago, so that you can personally be a part of what has become the world's finest all indoor specialty show devoted to Muscle Cars, Dealer-built Supercars and the country's finest and rarest Corvetttes.

I always welcome feedback and input, and can be reached at bastion426@gmail.com or you can call me personally at 586-549-5291.

Thank you;

Bob Ashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[Bashton]

What do you mean by "later".

"Later" in this instance means between the time that the judges left my car with my signature on the judging sheet and when I received my judging sheet after the awards were handed out.  That is absolutely, positively what happened with my car despite any protestations to the contrary.  I know it's not supposed to work that way, and regardless of what happened, I actually do enjoy the MCACN show for the wide variety of great muscle cars which it attracts (Furry People notwithstanding).

As far as some of the other MCACN-related comments posted recently, I'm not the only one who witnessed one other participant's actions, and those discussions were most definitely held after this person's car was "judged".  A comment was made within the group I was with to the effect that "it was time for the political lobbying to kick in."  IMHO, that's exactly what happened and I am not the only one to make this exact same observation. 

I could have appealed each and every one of the (very few) deductions my car was given, and John Antonelli plus a few other participants I know could have done the same after looking at their sheets.  At the time I intentionally chose to take the high road and leave well enough alone.  If someone now wants to use MCACN's judging results in an attempt to "prove" that their car is, in fact, a better restored vehicle, OR to invalidate another venue's judging results, I know that conclusion is not grounded in reality.  That's based on my own personal observations of how things were handled as well as my knowledge of what's correct and what's not.  If that's not a politically-correct statement to make, oh well.  These judging results are all in the book already, and I don't care about having any record "set straight" or my own score changed.  That simply doesn't matter to me - but I chuckle every time I see such a reference to the results (or at least certain ones) since it's not reflective of the truth.

Gene; congratulations on your accomplishments, both at my show and the others, and thanks for being a part of the 2012 MCACN show.

The only time a point total would be changed after the participant signs off would be if a clerical number error was made when the judges write down a point deduction, and our tallying crew caught it. Obviously, I would never assume there isn't the possibility of errors being made, but there would be no reason to add or subtract points after the judges have concluded their inspection.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com