Any HVAC guys here?

[timmycharger]

Just finished talking to the HVAC guy that came to the house to look at one of my central air units.  Looks like I have a refrigerant leak as the tech said I was down a few lbs.  He then told me that like the old R12 for autos, the current stuff has been banned and I will need a completely new AC unit that accepts the new stuff.

I have had the current ones for 12 years, and other than changing a relay or capacitor here and there, they have been pretty reliable.  This one is a bit above my pay grade when it comes to DIY.

I did a quick search on Google and looks like these changes started 1/1/20? Lucky me. Does this sound right? He also gave me the option of trying to top it off again with the old stuff for a couple of hundred bucks but wouldn't/couldn't guarantee how long it would last.

Should I start saving up for a new AC handler? He's saying it could be a 5k job.

[4cruzin]

I am not a tech but agree with what he is saying.  The old stuff is so expensive that it will cost a bit $$ to acquire  . . . but what if it leaks out too?  Then you are out that money and will still need a new system.  Just had that exact scenario happen in one of my offices and my buddy that I trust who is a tech said the exact same this you were told.  System needs to be replaced. 

How much was your quote?  Mine was about $2K . .

[green69rt]

I would think you could just replace the outside unit, not the air handler and heater inside.  Even that could be expensive.  I looked thru my old records and had one of my units replace 16 years ago.  Total replacement in 2004.  4 ton Trane system was $6,000.   I wonder what just the outside part would be now?

[timmycharger]

I am not a tech but agree with what he is saying.  The old stuff is so expensive that it will cost a bit $$ to acquire  . . . but what if it leaks out too?  Then you are out that money and will still need a new system.  Just had that exact scenario happen in one of my offices and my buddy that I trust who is a tech said the exact same this you were told.  System needs to be replaced. 

How much was your quote?  Mine was about $2K . .

I know, the tech said the same thing, but he thought if the leak was small, I might be able to make the summer.    Just got the quote, it is $4800 for the job which includes replacing parts by my furnace to work with the new handler.   I am trying to avoid doing the job this year, we just finished a 35k kitchen/bath remodel on our first floor, wasn't expecting this!

I would think you could just replace the outside unit, not the air handler and heater inside.  Even that could be expensive.  I looked thru my old records and had one of my units replace 16 years ago.  Total replacement in 2004.  4 ton Trane system was $6,000.   I wonder what just the outside part would be now?

It wasn't the complete furnace in the house, just a piece of it that works with the handler outside.  Got the quote for $4800 for everything..

[b5blue]

My unit is getting old also. Friends in the know told me the new unit will be 50% cheaper to run so it will offset costs and be eligible for energy efficient tax credit.

[J.Bond]

My unit is getting old also. Friends in the know told me the new unit will be 50% cheaper to run so it will offset costs and be eligible for energy efficient tax credit.

50% cheaper, yeah right. Timmycharger... a couple hundred dollars or 4800.00 ?, a no brainer, keep in mind, R22 is gone, but still available, replacement R422 is available, for pretty close to the old R22 numbers. Been in the trade for 30 plus years, best way to say this, old stuff, was better built, new junk does not last. Make sure, if it is being topped up, with R22, that buddy has a scale ( no scale, kick him off the property), and have him do a visual leak inspection.

Tax credits and energy credits, are usually added to the initial price, do not be fooled!!

[timmycharger]

My unit is getting old also. Friends in the know told me the new unit will be 50% cheaper to run so it will offset costs and be eligible for energy efficient tax credit.

50% cheaper, yeah right. Timmycharger... a couple hundred dollars or 4800.00 ?, a no brainer, keep in mind, R22 is gone, but still available, replacement R422 is available, for pretty close to the old R22 numbers. Been in the trade for 30 plus years, best way to say this, old stuff, was better built, new junk does not last. Make sure, if it is being topped up, with R22, that buddy has a scale ( no scale, kick him off the property), and have him do a visual leak inspection.

Tax credits and energy credits, are usually added to the initial price, do not be fooled!!


Thank you, appreciate the feedback! 

[white]

J.Bond is correct there is other Replacement Refrigerant gas that will work. New Air conditioning units do not last as long as the old ones. My unit is 40 years old and runs great, just keep up with normal Maintenance.

[timmycharger]

Thanks guys..


Looks like I will need to seek another opinion. Traded emails with the owner of the HVAC company who tells me that a top off of R22 isn't an option as they are trying to avoid that even though his tech that was here told us it was possible.  He isn't the only game in town..

[John_Kunkel]

He then told me that like the old R12 for autos, the current stuff has been banned and I will need a completely new AC unit that accepts the new stuff.

I call BS on that. R-22 is still readily available and, if the leak is repairable, that's the cheapest way to go.

It seems like modern HVAC techs don't want to be bothered with trying to find/fix leaks, just sell 'em a new unit.

[timmycharger]

He then told me that like the old R12 for autos, the current stuff has been banned and I will need a completely new AC unit that accepts the new stuff.

I call BS on that. R-22 is still readily available and, if the leak is repairable, that's the cheapest way to go.

It seems like modern HVAC techs don't want to be bothered with trying to find/fix leaks, just sell 'em a new unit.

Sure looks that way, he was at the house a total of 10 minutes and the diagnosis was a new unit for 5k..

[Bronzedodge]

Get a second opinion.    Yes, R-22 is going away, 410a is the standard replacement.   Supposedly 410a is going away as it has an ozone depletion potential more than zero.    The price of 22 has increased over 10X in the past decade.   Well over 10.-/lb wholesale.  I missed how old your system is, but I tell people this:   If you're going to stay in the house for many years ahead and it's a 15-20 yr old system , time to upgrade.    And yes, R22 production and equipment designed for it has ended in the US

Most mfg's recomend replacing the entire system when going to 410a.   The system pressures are about double from R22.   So, instead of avg 65 suction /200 discharge for 22 410a runs 120 suction/ 400 discharge.   BTW - any refrigerant that ends with a letter is a blend, and must be charged as a liquid.   

[Bronzedodge]

Oh, and the phase out of R-22 has been long been known.   I installed 410a heat pump system in my friends house in 2009.   He has a Lil Red Express.


Morgan

HVAC Commercial/Industrial pro.

[Todd Wilson]

And some companies give commission out to their techs for selling additional stuff when it may or may not be needed.......Get a 2nd opinion. Maybe keep it running for another season or 2 knowing that you are on borrowed time and plan for a new unit........


Todd

[green69rt]

Get a second opinion.    Yes, R-22 is going away, 410a is the standard replacement.   Supposedly 410a is going away as it has an ozone depletion potential more than zero.    The price of 22 has increased over 10X in the past decade.   Well over 10.-/lb wholesale.  I missed how old your system is, but I tell people this:   If you're going to stay in the house for many years ahead and it's a 15-20 yr old system , time to upgrade.    And yes, R22 production and equipment designed for it has ended in the US

Most mfg's recomend replacing the entire system when going to 410a.   The system pressures are about double from R22.   So, instead of avg 65 suction /200 discharge for 22 410a runs 120 suction/ 400 discharge.   BTW - any refrigerant that ends with a letter is a blend, and must be charged as a liquid.   

If 410a is going away, is there any replacement on the horizon?

[Bronzedodge]

That's a ways away.  The short answer is no, there is NOT a standard replacement for 410a yet.  The replacement for 134a is 1234yf, a blend that has propane in it.  The consensus is the residential market should have a non-flammable alternative.  My work is mostly commercial/industrial, so I hear the residential news last.

[timmycharger]

Thanks guys, definitely going with a second opinion. Appreciate all of the feedback on this, been very helpful. 

[John_Kunkel]

Yes, R-22 is going away, 410a is the standard replacement. 

To be clear, R-22 is "going away" in new manufacture but not for servicing existing equipment.

[451-74Charger]

I live in Kentucky and I just had to replace my entire Heat-Pump system (about $12K).

My old Janitrol/Goodmans R22 unit was from 1994 and had sprung a leak several times, (which I was able to repair the last 3 leaks). Unfortunately, my HVAC contact that refilled the unit, retired, so no more free top-ups for me.

The old unit was 2-Ton and I believed it to be under rated. Well, the HVAC guys were going to replace with another 2-ton until I had him run the numbers.
I was right, in that I needed a 3-Ton unit. I also went 18 Seer and had the downflow duct work replaced too and upgraded to a 15KW heater. I was able to reuse my 2yr old humidifier.

I had just about enough of working on the thing (after replacing the furnace and blower 5 years ago and re braising the condensor pipes in sub zero temperatures (in SNOW)), so this time it was a case of get someone in to do it and to heck with the cost. Obviously it had been replaced before as the 30A supply was capped and the Furnace was only using the 50A feed for everything, (6KW heater and 650cfm squirrel cage))

(really, it was to keep the wife happy as she doesnt like it when it gets too hot or cold) Not to mention it has enough heat and cooling to "extend" to the garage

[Bronzedodge]

Yes, R-22 is going away, 410a is the standard replacement. 

To be clear, R-22 is "going away" in new manufacture but not for servicing existing equipment.

Yes, that wording was ambiguous.   New R-22 equipment production the the US is OVER, done.   It began to be phased out in 2010.   If you buy a new residential system  in the US today it will be 410a.  The production of new R22 refrigerant in the US ended January 1 2020.   Yes, R22 is available to service existing systems.  It is similar to how R12 was available in 1993- the price is going up.  The supply is rapidly shrinking.   10 yrs ago R22 was 1 dollar a pound, a 30lb jug was $30.-; now it is over $310.- for 30 lbs. 

  As I mentioned, it hasn't been a secret or surprise.  Systems with R410a have been in production for over a decade.  Admittedly, this information isn't in the public consciousness is you're not in the trade.  But then again, the average guy isn't aware of the break between OBD-1 and OBD-2.   

[timmycharger]

I was able to get another HVAC guy here today after waiting about a week. Its been very hot here and he has been insanely busy.   He topped off the unit, put in about 5lbs of R122.  I know he brought a scale lol!  I didn't have him go digging around for any leaks other than at the unit outside and in my attic where the furnace is as many of the lines are buried in the walls.

He said there was some refrigerant in there still so he thinks the leak is small but couldn't guarantee of course how long this top off would last. For $300 I am ok with this gamble.  So far so good!

[b5blue]

Good to hear, I have a new window unit stored for backup. Split system can be a pain to find leaks. 

[Bronzedodge]

The fluorescent dye kits and someone who knows how to use them work well.  For a small system, like a car, the key is to NOT over-dye the system.  It shouldn't be hard to make a system leak free.  You have a leak, fix it.  Weighing in a charge with a refrigerant scale is standard practice in the commercial industry.

[greycharger]

Bought a convenience store. Everything worked, but the walk in cooler would only make 40 degrees. Called a shop, they said they knew the cooler and had been there before to top it off. They said it would take 9 pounds of freon at $50 per pound plus an extra charge for 5 miles of travel. Called the next place and they said exactly the same thing.
Then I called a friend who worked for Sears and he came out after work. It took so little freon he didn't charge me for it and he said the system wouldn't hold 9 pounds if it were completely empty.
Always get a a second opinion, or third. It saved me money.

I managed it to start. What a place. I had a lot of fun with the Tourists. One day, a guy came in with a .22 pistol to sell and I asked him how it shot. I don't know. Nobody was in the place, so I put a round in the magazine, chambered it, and looked for a target. I decided on the base of a wooden exterior door jam and just as I was squeezing it off, a loud, low riding Monte Carlo came rolling up to the pumps. They could see through the plate glass windows, me pointing the gun downward, and POW!
Still in gear and rolling, the Monte sped off.

Ranchers came in for coffee and one morning as a regular was leaving, one of the guys said: "watch this" and gestured towards the car pulling out.  A few seconds later, the door flew open and the guy threw himself onto the highway, his car rolling for the ditch. Turns out one of the guys had killed a three foot Rattler that morning, cut the head off, and put it under the seat before he came in. They still buzz and strike even without a head and have been known to crawl inside cars looking for mice. Good times. 

Then, there was the German documentary film crew, there to film the Sun Dances and stopped for directions...

[451-74Charger]

Dont leave us hanging, I want to hear the story of the Film crew