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Author Topic: 2nd Dyno Results.. A "lowly" 440 Street Engine  (Read 43984 times)
heyoldguy
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« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2014, 06:39:14 PM »

WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Steve
Thanks for the kind words.... really though, I am just an old retired fart playing in his Shop ? so take my opinions, as just that... and old fart playing around.

I haven't seen many Heads period.... that don't require dis-assembly, and at least some work/improvement from as delivered ?
Even the expensive ones that Flow more, still need work sometimes OOTB ?
Some are better than others, but no matter INDY, Eddy, Brodix, Stealth, all should be checked, and most if not all, can usually stand some improvement even it is just a guide re-hone.

We hadn't seen much of the Stealths prior to these ? only a few times in passing so this was a good opportunity.
That said,
and again here, just our opinion only, if a guy is going to apply the normal Dis-assembly/Check, and then contemplate the "least" amount of Port work/Cleanup conduscive to a 550/550 type pump gas build.....
for the cheapest total initial outlay & work
Then the Edelbrock RPM Head would be my first choice 2thumbs

The Eddy's may cost more initially than the Stealth.... but require less re-work for the 550/550 levels IMO.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.............
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« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2014, 07:02:33 PM »

Just wish the Eddy's didn't look like huge, honking chunks of billet sitting and hanging off the top of your 440.
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« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2014, 07:17:54 PM »

I'm not a purist, so I don't see the difference on the looks. The moment you fire the engine up everyone knows it's not stock, so why try to cheat it with stock looking heads? I have never seen the STEALTH up close or maybe I have and didn't notice, but really, do the Stealth heads have the same casting crud left on them as the stockers?? I guess I just don't see the point in trying to hide what you really have. Maybe if you were racing someone that didn't already know what your car would do!!  But then don't they all know that Stealth heads are out there??   shruggy
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Steve P.
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« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2014, 12:17:05 PM »

Not really a "purist" thing as much as even an INDY head resembles a mopar head. Eddy's look like somebody adapted a big block chevy head to fit a 440.
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« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2014, 12:36:00 PM »

I guess that just doesn't bother me. Hell, how many big block Chevy rods do you think are in big block mopars?? To me it's what you as an individual are looking for. None of our cars came with an 8-71 perched on top, but I love them too.
What I like the most is guys coming up with different ideas on how to get the performance they want and be able to do it on a tight budget. That impresses me. The guys with more money than time to spend it build some nice rides, but I am less impressed because they can afford to buy anything at any price. Bob has shown people how to stroke a low block and make pretty big power. All while keeping weight down and no scoop required.. LOVE THAT!!!!!  2thumbs
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Steve P.
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« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2014, 03:52:32 PM »

WOW!!  Great info in this thread. Thank you Bob, for bringing us all in on your builds. I'm loving the numbers. One day I would love to put together a nicely refined, Planned and built), motor and get back in the seat. Until then I get to dream about builds like this..

I am wondering how you would go. Cheaper heads that you can fix or more expensive heads that you won't have to spend crazy hours on fixing? I'm asking on a similar build. Say - 550 HP/TQ on a weekend driver and now and then race weekend?

Steve
Thanks for the kind words.... really though, I am just an old retired fart playing in his Shop ? so take my opinions, as just that... and old fart playing around.

I haven't seen many Heads period.... that don't require dis-assembly, and at least some work/improvement from as delivered ?
Even the expensive ones that Flow more, still need work sometimes OOTB ?
Some are better than others, but no matter INDY, Eddy, Brodix, Stealth, all should be checked, and most if not all, can usually stand some improvement even it is just a guide re-hone.

We hadn't seen much of the Stealths prior to these ? only a few times in passing so this was a good opportunity.
That said,
and again here, just our opinion only, if a guy is going to apply the normal Dis-assembly/Check, and then contemplate the "least" amount of Port work/Cleanup conduscive to a 550/550 type pump gas build.....
for the cheapest total initial outlay & work
Then the Edelbrock RPM Head would be my first choice 2thumbs

The Eddy's may cost more initially than the Stealth.... but require less re-work for the 550/550 levels IMO.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.............
Exactly 4 x's if it's modified, why not go with a superior performing product, even if it doesn't look like the OEM casted stuff, I guess it's different strokes for different folks, opinions vary vastly it seems, but I'll take the better performing & 100% made in the USA part any day, over an inferior part, just because it's cheaper or that it looks closer to stock...
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« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2014, 05:23:11 PM »

I heard Eddy claims to be made in USA, but they are not totally cast and machined here. Only takes like 39% to carry the "made in USA" label.
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« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2014, 05:42:34 PM »

I heard Eddy claims to be made in USA, but they are not totally cast and machined here. Only takes like 39% to carry the "made in USA" label.
That's wrong, not sure where you heard that... I've toured the Edelbrock facilities in Torrance Ca. & San Jacinto Ca. Permanent Mold & Foundry, I've seen it 1st hand for myself, not too long ago, early sometime last year even, "From what I saw", they are Engineered/designed in-house from start to finish, founded/cast & machined here in SoCal, all the parts, casting, molds, valves, springs, cups, retainers, locks, seals etc., are all produced/made here too...
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Steve P.
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« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2014, 05:42:40 PM »

I don't know Cooter. I remember when they came out with a new or newer version of one of their heads and Vic Edelbrock . was on the Power Block showing his machine shop and said point blank, OUR HEADS ARE MADE RIGHT HERE IN THE USA BY AMERICAN WORKERS WITH AMERICAN PRIDE!!

If he is lying it would be a huge stab to all he lied to...

This is directly from their HEADS page:

" Every Edelbrock Cylinder Head is MADE IN USA for quality and performance! Cast and heat treated at the Edelbrock Foundry and machined at Edelbrockís manufacturing facility in the USA, Edelbrock heads are the best in quality and performance. Using highly efficient ports and state-of-the-art combustion chamber shapes, Edelbrock cylinder heads offer improved performance throughout the rpm range for great throttle response and top-end horsepower. Top-quality features include threaded inserts in rocker stud and exhaust bolt holes for superior strength and durability, and manganese-bronze valve guides. These are features that some other companies donít include! "
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Steve P.
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« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2014, 05:55:49 PM »

Hmmmmm......
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Ryan.C
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« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2014, 02:23:11 PM »

This thread is awesome, can you please post a total parts costs as my 440 is off to the machine shop very shortly. I am curious to see what I am in for. also is there anything different that should be done if one is going to run HP manifolds with a build like this?
 

Thanks
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« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2014, 10:41:28 AM »

Learned a lot of good info on this thread as well, i am always amazed by the knowledge on this forum. Every time i think i know exactly what im going to do with my motor i read something like this and i'm back to the drawing board  Undecided . I have a 77 440 bored .30 over that i wanted to get something like 550 hp out of, but mainly id like to run in the high 11's and low 12's (hell id be happy with mid or even high 12's at this point lol) so this build seems perfect for what i am trying to do. How much would something like this cost to have done, if you dont mind sharing? If its only like $1500 cheaper than a stroker then id just go with that.
Thanks in advance guys,
Pete
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Challenger340
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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2014, 07:35:17 AM »

Been working pretty steady, and missed these requests,.....  seems to be a few of them ?
So,
what I'll do is get up a parts "list" that  people can price from, on there own, from there own sources and geographical locations.

The hard part for many people ? might be duplicating the "Labor" portion of these builds closer to home for some ?
Guys just don't believe it.... for most a "Bore & Hone"... is a "Bore & Hone".... Right ?
same goes for "Re-sizing Rods" .... Right ?
Absolutely WRONG !
"Apples" ain't "Oranges" when it comes to "Machining" versus "Blueprinting"

In a nutshell.... just be forewarned.... results WILL vary depending upon "where" and "who"....  you use to get it done.
Same goes for "pricing" all said and done.... depending upon "where" it gets done.

Stay tuned...
Bob.

PS;
I will also be curious after I get the Parts List up.... to hear what people think is a relative "Price Point" in the market for a 545hp/565Ft/lb Non-Stroker 440 package Engine ?
Assembled "Carb To Pan"... "Dizzy & Wires to Flexplate", timed & primed ready to go out the door ?
or,
even just as an Assembled LongBlock ?
Should be interesting....
 


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Steve P.
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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2014, 11:15:21 AM »

Absolute fact, buddy...  We have a few machine shops around my neck of the woods, but I have been heavily warned about a few and warned others about another. These shops may know what the equipment (CAN) do, but they don't know how to make them do it right or don't have the interest to do it right..

When your machine man works to get things close and close is good enough for him and then the next stage is good enough for him and then the next, you wind up with a shaky motor that will granade in no time.

Short story I've told before:
I had some head work and line honing and cam bearing install done at a shop that was recommended to me, in Clearwater. The guy seamed to know what was what and many of the local cruize-in guys had used this shop. After all the cleaning, machining, cleaning again they put together my short block. 2 sets of heads cleaned and checked and one set got a 5 angle and some touch up on the floors that they said I left too smooth. Ok, a month goes by and I get a call. I shoot down to Clearwater to pick up my stuff and as I am driving in I see a big fan, (about 4 foot in diameter), just outside the door of the shop and it is blowing IN.  eek The driveway is a stone/dirt passage that many others also use and the truck and trailer going by the door ahead of me have raised all kinds of dust that I see is blowing into the shop. I get inside and not 5 feet from the door and fan is my motor on a stand with no bag around it. Absolutely NOTHING keeping the dust and dirt out of my motor that is now a full shortblock!!!!

I went off the wall!!!!!  They did not even bag my motor.

Now before anyone asks, when I dropped off the motor it went in a door on the other side of the shop and that driveway is paved. They had many blocks there waiting for work and though most machines were old, they were kept clean and nice.

So even if they can do one part of the job, doesn't always mean they have the brains to do it ALL right!   
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Steve P.
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« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2014, 09:35:16 AM »

Got an order for 2 more of those lowly 440's, so I'll get the current parts list up this week. 

It would seem a few Buddies of the guy with the lower power 274 Cammed 440 Engine, went for ride in the 3.23 geared 70 R/T Challenger it was installed in, some Friday night street fun ensued, friendly stoplight competitions in the guys Car Club, blew the doors off a coupla strokers, yada, yada..... all I know.... is here we go again ?
We just don't get many "easy" pretty straight forward Engine builds like these to do very often.... we are primarily pidgeon-holed in the Comp/Drag end.... so a very nice break.
Only changes;
Gonna try a Street Dominator Intake in conjunction with a little more headwork on the Stealths... closer to what the 284H F.T. Cammed 545hp Engines Heads.... see what happens with the smaller 274H F.T. Cam ?
Just can't talk those guys outa the smaller Cam.... they want the nice idle quality, which sounds like just one-up from stock "musclecar" with TONS of Torque right off-idle and very responsive.

later this week
Bob




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« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2014, 08:38:14 PM »

Got an order for 2 more of those lowly 440's, so I'll get the current parts list up this week. 

It would seem a few Buddies of the guy with the lower power 274 Cammed 440 Engine, went for ride in the 3.23 geared 70 R/T Challenger it was installed in, some Friday night street fun ensued, friendly stoplight competitions in the guys Car Club, blew the doors off a coupla strokers, yada, yada..... all I know.... is here we go again ?
We just don't get many "easy" pretty straight forward Engine builds like these to do very often.... we are primarily pidgeon-holed in the Comp/Drag end.... so a very nice break.
Only changes;
Gonna try a Street Dominator Intake in conjunction with a little more headwork on the Stealths... closer to what the 284H F.T. Cammed 545hp Engines Heads.... see what happens with the smaller 274H F.T. Cam ?
Just can't talk those guys outa the smaller Cam.... they want the nice idle quality, which sounds like just one-up from stock "musclecar" with TONS of Torque right off-idle and very responsive.


Hey, don't make fun of the small cam guys. icon_smile_big

Keep us posted.



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500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph
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« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2014, 09:15:57 AM »

OK, results are in on one the next "Budget" lowly 440 builds.

Keep in mind here, these builds are for the "RESTO" Crowd, who primarily want a good running pump gas "Street" Engine in the truest sense of the word, that fits as a drop in with their typical 3.23 stock gearing and 727 auto,
but.....
 can still put a smile on their face when floored with 500hp and 535 Ft/Lbs Torque

These guys are not racing, they just want:
* close to stock appearance
* tons of vacuum for power brakes
* a one-up from stock "Musclecar" idle quality and exhaust note, almost "smooth" with the small 274 Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam at .488" Lift 
* fits easy under the Hood with lots of Air Cleaner clearance(Street Dom Intake)
* matches the stock 440 magnum rpm range and 727 upshifting point of 5300rpm by itself when left in "D"
* and won't stress the stock Rad/Cooling or Fuel Systems.... otherwise trying to adequately Fuel or COOL a Stroker
* works with Headers and 2 1/4" Exhaust
* No Valve adjustments.... ever !
* Long-lived on the street 5/64" Piston Rings
and BEST of all....
* Cheap.... as in FAR CHEAPER than trying to finance a Stroker build.

The recipe can be applied to any 440 Core Engine... yes, even Cast Crank versions, although I prefer the earlier Forged Crank Cores as a better starting point to Balance Internally and applying stock looking Pulleys etc under hood.
Keep in mind here....
we've already made 545hp and 560 ft/lbs on this parts combination with a 284H Cam upgrade... so the temptation is already there where the Forged Crank Core is better on future upgrades.


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« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2014, 10:39:39 AM »

Lowly 440 "recipe"
Start with a 440 Engine Core "shortblock" complete.

Engine Block Machine Package:
* Dis-assemble and strip shortblock
* Hot-Tank Block and all parts.
* Bore & Hone with Torque Plate to .004" to .0045" clearance
* Line Hone Mains with ARP Main Studs to .003" vertical clearance on Brgs
* Surface Block equal & square .010"
* Wash Block thoroughly
* Replace Block frost & gallery Plugs
* Replace and "Fit" Cam Bearings
* Regrind Crankshaft lowside
* Press old Pistons off Rods
* Re-Size Connecting Rods with ARP Boltsto .0025"'vertical clearance on Brgs
* Pin-Fit new Pistons to .001"( NO... they are NOT ready to use ootb for this application!)
* Install new Pistons on Rods

Stealth Head prep package:
* Dis-assemble, check guide clearance.
* Apply Stage 2 Seat & Valve prep
* Street Port Cylinder Heads
* Surface Heads
* Wash, re-assemble setting V/Spring Pressures
(this is our own porting and prep... obviously here, YOU should consider the ootb "Super Stealth" head offering ? or LOWER results

* Balance Engine Complete.

Assembly:
* Cam degree, re-check and record all clearances
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Valvetrain Geometry, cut to fit pushrods
* Set Crank End Thrust @ .006"
* Ring Endgaps @ .018"
* Assemble Intake to Pan... Timing Cover to Flexplate, Timed and Primed with Oil.

Parts:
#200-1055 440Source Stealth Heads(2)
#109-1514 440Source Head Bolt Kit
#200-1045 440Source 1.5 Ratio Roller Rocker Arms,
#105-1018 440Source shims(2),
#113-1018 440Source spacers
#200-1032 440Source Hold Downs
10* Lock & retainer upgrade(CompCams 741-16 and 611-16)
#105-1022 440Source Cut to Fit pushrods
#127-1030 440Source Windage Tray
#200-1009 440Source Brass Frost & Gallery Plug Kit
FelPro 260-1001 O/H Gasket Set
FelPro 1808 extra Oil Pan Gasket for Windage Tray.
Melling M63 HV Oil Pump
Melling IS63 Oil Pump Drive(comes with Dizzy Tower Bushing)
Cloyes 9-3125 Timing Chain & Gearset
Speed Pro #96000 Intake Valley pan
ARP # 140-5401 Main Studs
ARP#145-6002 Connecting Rod Bolts
ICON # 9953 Piston Set
5/64th Moly Rings
Durabond PD-17 Cam Bearings
Clevitte CB527P Rod Bearings
Speed Pro 119M10 Main Bearings(3/4 groove)
CompCams #23-224-4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
16 Topline Johnson Flat Tappet Lifters
Holley 300-14 Intake Manifold
Any Engine Paint, Oil & Filter, Nuts & Bolts, Silicone, Shop Supplies, yada, yada, as req'd.

Options:
Eagle Connecting Rods
Complete Engine dress up Bolt Kit
Valve Covers
Aluminum Water Pump Housing & Water Pump
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Homerr
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« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2014, 06:35:06 PM »

Lowly 440 "recipe"
Start with a 440 Engine Core "shortblock" complete.

Engine Block Machine Package:
* Dis-assemble and strip shortblock
* Hot-Tank Block and all parts.
* Bore & Hone with Torque Plate to .004" to .0045" clearance
* Line Hone Mains with ARP Main Studs to .003" vertical clearance on Brgs
* Surface Block equal & square .010"
* Wash Block thoroughly
* Replace Block frost & gallery Plugs
* Replace and "Fit" Cam Bearings
* Regrind Crankshaft lowside
* Press old Pistons off Rods
* Re-Size Connecting Rods with ARP Boltsto .0025"'vertical clearance on Brgs
* Pin-Fit new Pistons to .001"( NO... they are NOT ready to use ootb for this application!)
* Install new Pistons on Rods

Stealth Head prep package:
* Dis-assemble, check guide clearance.
* Apply Stage 2 Seat & Valve prep
* Street Port Cylinder Heads
* Surface Heads
* Wash, re-assemble setting V/Spring Pressures
(this is our own porting and prep... obviously here, YOU should consider the ootb "Super Stealth" head offering ? or LOWER results

* Balance Engine Complete.

Assembly:
* Cam degree, re-check and record all clearances
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Valvetrain Geometry, cut to fit pushrods
* Set Crank End Thrust @ .006"
* Ring Endgaps @ .018"
* Assemble Intake to Pan... Timing Cover to Flexplate, Timed and Primed with Oil.

Parts:
#200-1055 440Source Stealth Heads(2)
#109-1514 440Source Head Bolt Kit
#200-1045 440Source 1.5 Ratio Roller Rocker Arms,
#105-1018 440Source shims(2),
#113-1018 440Source spacers
#200-1032 440Source Hold Downs
10* Lock & retainer upgrade(CompCams 741-16 and 611-16)
#105-1022 440Source Cut to Fit pushrods
#127-1030 440Source Windage Tray
#200-1009 440Source Brass Frost & Gallery Plug Kit
FelPro 260-1001 O/H Gasket Set
FelPro 1808 extra Oil Pan Gasket for Windage Tray.
Melling M63 HV Oil Pump
Melling IS63 Oil Pump Drive(comes with Dizzy Tower Bushing)
Cloyes 9-3125 Timing Chain & Gearset
Speed Pro #96000 Intake Valley pan
ARP # 140-5401 Main Studs
ARP#145-6002 Connecting Rod Bolts
ICON # 9953 Piston Set
5/64th Moly Rings
Durabond PD-17 Cam Bearings
Clevitte CB527P Rod Bearings
Speed Pro 119M10 Main Bearings(3/4 groove)
CompCams #23-224-4 Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
16 Topline Johnson Flat Tappet Lifters
Holley 300-14 Intake Manifold
Any Engine Paint, Oil & Filter, Nuts & Bolts, Silicone, Shop Supplies, yada, yada, as req'd.

Options:
Eagle Connecting Rods
Complete Engine dress up Bolt Kit
Valve Covers
Aluminum Water Pump Housing & Water Pump


Wow, this looks great!
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rednuck
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« Reply #94 on: July 17, 2014, 02:01:57 PM »


That is an absolutely awesome list, my hat is off to you as not many engine builders would do something like that. I think you also just outlined an "appear stock" cheating engine in my racing class, possibly with some rhoads lifters to idle even nicer.
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« Reply #95 on: July 17, 2014, 06:20:53 PM »

 coolgleamA  this is interesting stuff ,  , have a compcams XE274 in the motor at the minute .   thanks for sharing this  info  , appreciated  cheers cheers


 
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« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2014, 07:59:50 PM »

Could this be done for under 6K?
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« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2014, 11:21:05 AM »

Could this be done for under 6K?
I have NO IDEA !
While the parts prices should be comparable for the most part across the country.... from Summit, Jegs or 440 Source, the Labor Rates vary greatly due to regional economics location to location.... and from Shop to Shop according to the quality of work performed ?.

I would strongly reccomend finding a shop that has a BB Mopar Torqueplate, and, if not purchasing the CNC Super Stealth Head from 440 Source at the outset, a Performance Shop that has a Flowbench and is familiar with Porting and Prep on the ootb normal Stealth Heads.

long story short here....
if you buy the parts.... then head off to the cheapest Farm Impliment Machine Shop you can find ? well... don't expect the same results.
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« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2014, 01:15:31 PM »

   I meant by you!  2thumbs Everything posted here by you is gospel in my book. I went to great pains and waited 9 months just to have Chuck at CJ's Automotive handle my mild build. He races and has built literally 100's of B/RB engines and has only one trusted Mopar machinist. He also referred to my build as "low" and I assured him I'd be fine with output. (I am.) The only issues I have had have nothing to do with his rebuild.
  New Hyper Speed Pro 9.5 pistons, MP cam, MP bearings, gear set/chain, gasket set and so on (Everything MP except the Melling HV oil pump and Mancini push rods.) machine work/labor on block and 346 heads had me just under 3K after I installed the short block and assembled the top end.
  I'm certain your builds are much stronger and will last longer as your really going the full route with the new heads/connecting rods, extra attention to tolerances and so on. I wouldn't hesitate to have you build my next engine even with hefty shipping to Florida! I was just wondering what YOUR out the door total was around?  shruggy
 
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« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2014, 03:13:58 PM »

Would there be any other changes if the 284 Cam was used??
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