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Author Topic: Production number clarification for '69 Charger 500 and '69 Charger Daytona  (Read 5181 times)
mcsilver
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« on: June 29, 2017, 05:46:58 PM »

I've seen a variety of numbers claimed for these two models, as well as the number within each model equipped with Hemis. It seems to me that as the numbers are small, the values are high, and the current market is global that all cars no matter where they were sold originally should be included in the count.

(My apologies if this subject has been beaten to death on the Forum previously, but when I entered a search nothing meaningful came up)

Thanks Everyone,
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6bblgt
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 11:22:07 PM »

1969 Charger 500 = 580 total
1969 Charger Daytona = 503 total
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moparstuart
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 08:30:23 AM »

1969 Charger 500 = 580 total
1969 Charger Daytona = 503 total
or if you subcribe to the original 500 production number  of 392  ,  there are two schools of thought on it 
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mcsilver
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 11:51:20 AM »

Thanks Moparstuart and 6bblgt. Those are the figures I've usually seen. Three more related queries.........

     1) Why do some support 392 and others 580 for the Charger 500 build number?
     2) How many Hemis thought to reside (from factory) under hoods of each of Charger 500s and Charger Daytonas?
     3) Does anyone have more details (including production number) on something called a 1966 Charger NASCAR Replica model?  I understand it helped get a different tail spoiler NASCAR eligible.

Thanks,

McSilver
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Homerr
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 01:26:06 PM »

See my sig for links to spreadsheets on publicly documented cars.
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RallyeMike
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 06:48:20 PM »

Quote
1) Why do some support 392 and others 580 for the Charger 500 build number?

There is a publicly shared letter from Chrysler saying there were 392 cars. It's said there is another official list with more cars, but it's not publicly available. Until it is, the 580 figure is mostly regarded as a footnote to the 392 number.

All in all, I think the documentation in the registry Homer assembled is far more interesting.
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1973 Charger "T/A", 1972 Charger (#41), 69 Charger 500

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white
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500


« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 07:56:36 PM »

I agree, I think the Registry will shed light on the numbers.
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C500
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 11:17:11 PM »

From the ratio of surviving Daytona's vs total number produced, if you apply the same ratio to 500's, with 303 documented in the registry, the 580 number has credence.
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6bblgt
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 12:42:18 AM »

Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?

500 = 580 cars on the VIN ship list (there could be issues similar to the Daytona list) but until GG shares his list or another surfaces it's 580
the 392 number is based on an invoice or similar from Creative Industries, nothing about it states total or end of 500 production

I can account for more than 400 500s
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held1823
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2017, 05:42:14 AM »

Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s

yet no desire to aid the registry? i hope at least the aero clubs have record of them all.

galen sitting on his alleged list is almost understandable - he is in it for the money, not the benefit of the hobby. his is also a name that has tarnished itself, for those aware of recent history. his sitting on any list is nothing but ego. galen notwithstanding, what is the point of information/photos/etc, if not to educate and hopefully grow interest?

owner "privacy" is a non starter, as chrysler was the owner of every one of them with regard to simply gathering vin information to determine production totals.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 06:38:31 AM »

500 cars were required by Nascar. Why build 580?
What about the story of sending cars by the inspectors twice, since they didn't make 500 of the 500!   Not true?

More Daytonas survived than 500s because they look "special".   

Special Interest Auto had a wing car article in 1979 where the numbers were extrapolated based on known cars, at that time. Later, it was found out to be off on all of the figures. 
How many of you remember, "70 hemi Daytonas were built"?    (not true, actual number is way lower !!!)
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RallyeMike
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 07:03:40 AM »

Talk is cheap on 500 production. Until people are ready to share their data with the registry it will stay that way.

I'm also in the camp that there are probably around 500+/- based on what is publicly known and assumed survivorship. There are also the cars that are not publicly known: There are two 500's around here that I'm pretty sure are are not on any public radar. Perhaps someday I'll add them to the public factual data, assuming the owner's allow me. There are certainly more out there.







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1973 Charger "T/A", 1972 Charger (#41), 69 Charger 500

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Aero426
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 09:03:00 AM »

There is nothing to substantiate the 392 number.  If I recall, it is a response letter written by Chrysler customer service.  How they arrived at that number is not known.

They HAD to make 500 cars to satisfy ACCUS.   They had to prove the cars had been built.

You have a letter from Bill France to Ford referencing a list of 540 cars.

You have the Galen list saying 500+ cars.  (I do not need to see the list to believe it.)




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talkiemopar
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 10:55:11 AM »

Maybe they only counted the XX29 cars and not the XS29 cars.  Rick  Twocents shruggy soapbox
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6bblgt
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 11:30:40 AM »

Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s

yet no desire to aid the registry?

which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street
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white
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500


« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »

Rick has a good point. yesnod
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6bblgt
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2017, 12:37:43 PM »

What about the story of sending cars by the inspectors twice, since they didn't make 500 of the 500!   Not true?

I believe that "story" is Mercury SPOILER II based - a lot full of Cale Yarborough & Dan Gurney Specials both SPOILER & SPOILER II (aero) claimed to be all SPOILER IIs


* d-c cale-yarborough-spoiler.jpg (104.91 KB, 640x427 - viewed 507 times.)

* d-c mercury_cyclone_spoiler_ii_dan_gurney_special.jpg (167.17 KB, 650x442 - viewed 517 times.)
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mcsilver
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2017, 01:09:57 PM »

RE: Mercury Spoiler II Count......

I've read the account from those who were present about some of the 392 Mercury shown more than once to NASCAR inspectors..........though I also understand Kevin Marti supports more than 500 Spoiler IIs, though again is the underlying data "public info for scrutiny"? Could both be correct with more Spoiler IIs completed after the NASCAR inspection? I don't know the answers but they are interesting parallels to the Charger historical debates.

Does anyone know more on this Mercury topic?

McSilver
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held1823
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2017, 03:37:31 PM »

Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s

yet no desire to aid the registry?

which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street

i agree 100%. it should be a multi-lane expressway. i'm not intending to single you out, and have seen you offer a wealth of information in the past, and not just wing wise. none of us are getting any younger. you would think that people would WANT as accurate and as complete of a history as possible to be out there. documentation and photos kept in a shoe box buried in the closet are worthless, in the end

between two different wing clubs, the fledgling registries here, and the good number of aero experts that frequent this board, you would think that to be a shared goal. time after time, you see members step to the plate to help others out, without expecting anything in return. i have little doubt that if those who truly care about these cars would pool their efforts, we would find a significant number of "lost" cars, are accounted for.

i doubt the little daytona spreadsheet i have would reveal anything new, but you're welcome to a copy of it. it's been a few years since i've added to it, and i believe anything found in it would already have been added to the registry here.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2017, 10:09:52 PM »

RE: Mercury Spoiler II Count......

I've read the account from those who were present about some of the 392 Mercury shown more than once to NASCAR inspectors..........though I also understand Kevin Marti supports more than 500 Spoiler IIs, though again is the underlying data "public info for scrutiny"? Could both be correct with more Spoiler IIs completed after the NASCAR inspection? I don't know the answers but they are interesting parallels to the Charger historical debates.

Does anyone know more on this Mercury topic?

McSilver

The Mercury number quoted in the old days was 353.   But with Marti having access to what was the Ford warranty database, that number has been proven false.   They built 500+.   Spoiler IIs had a specific DSO (7024), so it would not be possible to add in W nose Cyclone Spoilers.

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Homerr
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2017, 11:02:53 PM »

Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s

yet no desire to aid the registry?

which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street

For the record: many, including many here in this thread, have helped me with the open registry.

Some with their own private lists have been given this info by owners on the condition they don't share it.  Some that helped contacted those owners and asked if they would reconsider and then forwarded the info.  Keeping that trust is important.
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nascarxx29
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 03:40:34 AM »

Page 15 240 Charger 500s newspapers clipping
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7862.325.html
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
held1823
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 05:45:05 AM »

Quote
For the record: many, including many here in this thread, have helped me with the open registry.

Some with their own private lists have been given this info by owners on the condition they don't share it.  Some that helped contacted those owners and asked if they would reconsider and then forwarded the info.  Keeping that trust is important.

you just touched on what i see as being the major hurdle to putting together a definitive database - some of the owners themselves, and keeping the "trust". the ironic thing would be if some of them are no longer even the owner of the cars being shrouded in secrecy. back when i worked on gathering info with the idea of building a searchable database, i was dumbfounded by the lack of those willing to contribute. it seemed more like a competition to see who could collect the most secretive amount of information, than a willingness to compile an accurate history.

the vin and fender tag info that a registry gathers has absolutely nothing to do with personal information. these lists contain info from when a car was first built and Chrysler was still the owner. registries do not record or reveal where a car is, fifty years after the fact, nor who might have owned it during that time. i speak as one of the very few that might be identifiable by information about a specific car when it was new, as i imagine fewer than 5% of them are still with the original owners. My name and vin on every post I make shows my lack of concern for that. These are typically among the owners most willing to share the history. Those of us with facebook see many long time owners sharing their knowledge there, as well.

i get that some people are just reclusive, and many are concerned about security. what i don't get is how them allowing a registry to record that their car came with a console or a tachometer, jeopardizes either of those traits or concerns.

i get that the clubs have spent many years, and many dollars, gathering their info. i don't get why they are not the ones at the forefront of pushing for the correct information to be out there.

i personally believe that a flashy daytona website, one where anyone could see how many f8 cars came with a green interior and fm radio, would drive interest higher, but i get that we all have different ideas of what could benefit the hobby, and perhaps keep it alive for generations to come.

i hate that, in the end, as the true enthusiasts die off,  none of this even matters, that these machines will eventually become newer versions of a model T.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
nascarxx29
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2017, 06:02:41 AM »

I collect archive ads and try to match it to its I
Owner
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76764.0.htm
And try to find ownership back history s
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
nascarxx29
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2017, 06:06:37 AM »

The 500 lists 79-89

287970 is car #501
 http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76676.msg861219/topicseen.html#msg861219
  I also located actual ads for daytona and see if they matched ship list Twocents
There also a 1979 Car Collector article on wingcar vin sequences Twocents
The wingcars & 500 vin numbers dictated from the 1979 archive article as written it says All known true charger 500s identification numbers are XX29*9B10000-XX29*9B260000 Daytonas 280000-480000 superbirds140000-182000





2 210 daytonas  210708 210719 coincedence there both from Ohio

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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
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