Flush/fill that migrated into blown head gasket and plugged up radiator. Read on

[70charginglizard]

I decided to flush and fill my system up before winter this year so I went by shucks and purchased some of there so called "Good stuff"
That orange Prestone extended life stuff.
So I proceed to use the prestone fill and flush, drain and flush with water (with the heater running as instructed), drain and fill with a 70/30 mixture of this stuff.

Now please note: I was not having any major overheating problems before doing this. it would only get a little bit warm when stuck in traffic.

Well after the flush and new fluids done I take er out on the road to go to a drive inn movie thing the clubs put together. Well on the way it ran just fine but about 2/3's of the way (no traffic, regular 50mph+ conditions) and the the temperature starts creeping above 190. Shot up to 230 and I started sweating. I better get to a station. Made it to a Chevron at almost close to 250!,  pulled in by the air and water and shut er down and old faithfull then proceeds to respond by putting on a nice little show out of my overfill bottle. So, I figure maybe it didn't like the 70/30 mixture, lets try 50/50. I let it cool down, dump some extra out thru the drain and fill back up about 1/4 of the radiator back up with plain water assuming I'm pretty close to 50/50 I proceed to the movies.

Nope she's still POed. Does the same thing with I get there. Something wierd happened there. as I tried to cool down with water over top the radiator. The top hose starts suctioning in.

I figure fine. I'll deal with it for now. Fill with a little more water, watch the movie and then head home.

It makes it almost home but heading up the big hill across the tressle starts heating up again.

I start to think... maybe I damaged the thermostate when I flushed the system
so when and shut down it over heats again. I feel both the top and bottom hoses and there both very hot.
I alllow for cool down, I pull off the thermostat fitting, inspect for debris...nope. pull out the thermostat and test in boiling water and it's working just fine.


Hu  

So what's ya guys think.

Details; 440 bored 30 over, 22" 3 core radiator (recored just 4 years ago) with Mechanical fan and fan shroud, Mopar performance water pump,  back up electric fan on front of radiator (which usually helped when traffic condiditons caused excessive warm up but not this time) I'm running stock temp gage as well as an aftermaket mechanical temp gage tied into the waterpump housing. 

I'm figuring that I just didn't get all that fill and flush stuff out and the cooling system is just not liking it.

Any comments?

[Steve P.]

I think it's time to put the Charger on a truck and send it to Florida.. I'll work all and any bugs out for you. You will just have to pay for parts and all the gas I burn making sure everything is just right....

Seriously,, I would say it could be a coinkydink that this all happened at the same time. More than likely the flush broke lose some scale and is plugging up your rad.   I would start it cold with the cap off and keep checking the temp of the top and bottom hoses to see if they get hot at the same time. While doing this, watch into the rad. for when your t-stat opens. Watch the flow across the top of the rad. If it's poor and the bottom hose isn't getting hot quickly as the top hose, you are not putting a good flow through the entire rad.   That would be time for a rodding..

[70charginglizard]

Another point I'd like to make is that when I drained out all the old radiator fluid it looked almost completely free of any debris. It looked like brand new fluid. Very clean. And as I flushed out the system the water coming out of the top of the radiator durring the flush was Crystal clear. No rust at all.

Just thought Id mension this

[myk]

Oh no, not the extended life coolant, known as Dex-Cool or "Death Cool" by some of us GM owners.  That extended life coolant is extremely corrosive to cooling systems, and the end result is that at some point you'll have to flush your system and rod-out your radiator to clean out the debris.  I should know, I've had to do that with my Z28 twice because I insisted on using extended life "Death Cool" coolant.  Like my mechanics tried to tell me, the green stuff is perfectly fine. 

As for your current overheating issues, maybe there's still a considerable amount of air in the system?  I've never even heard of a flush and fill type of fluid to help clean out cooling systems; maybe Steve P. has a point about some of that stuff remaining in the system and causing problems.  I would say to flush and fill again, this time with just plain water and then refilling with the traditional green stuff-coolant...

[70charginglizard]

I tried running reflushing and running straight water but it still overheated.
I think the timing actually was off. Don't know how changing the radiator fluid and flushing would have made the car to start overheating if the timing was off because it wasnt overheating this way before. but after the last overheat with straight water I rechacked the timing and it was off. Causing a high idle. I think that's what the overheat issue was now. Im gonna try running it again with the timing re-ajust and I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

Thanks for the input

BTY- what do you guys got your 440s timing set to?

[Chryco Psycho]

36 -38 * total at 3000 rpm

[resq302]

I had the same type of overheating problem that you described only I was running the green stuff.  It turned out that I had air in the system even though I thought I had it all out.  Firefighter told me a trick to get the air out, put the car on ramps so the filler neck for the rad is the highest most point on the car then start it up and with the cap off, let the engine warm up till the coolant starts to circulate.

Neat trick, cause after the coolant flush I did, I was running at 230 also and couldn't understand why.  Put the car up on the ramps and now it is running around 180 consistantly.

[70charginglizard]

I had the same type of overheating problem that you described only I was running the green stuff.  It turned out that I had air in the system even though I thought I had it all out.  Firefighter told me a trick to get the air out, put the car on ramps so the filler neck for the rad is the highest most point on the car then start it up and with the cap off, let the engine warm up till the coolant starts to circulate.

Neat trick, cause after the coolant flush I did, I was running at 230 also and couldn't understand why.  Put the car up on the ramps and now it is running around 180 consistantly.

Interesting....Like burpin a baby...when it's got gas, it is NOT happy....lol
I'll have to give that a shot.

Thanks for the tip.

Oh and BTY MYK. I took out the death coolant out and replaced it with EF8 Dark Metallic green prestone...lol.

[grizzlygiff]

I agree 100% with what MYK said. I drive semi trucks and was given a brand new Peterbilt last year. It was factory filled with that extended life stuff, after about six months I began noticing a LOT of build up in the fill tank. I voiced my concern about it to the shop foreman. They wound up changing all their new trucks to the regular green stuff. It convinced me that I would never use it in my cars.

[MorePwr]

Bleeder hole in the T stat works great for getting the air out.

[firefighter3931]

Bleeder hole in the T stat works great for getting the air out.

[70charginglizard]

Bleeder hole in the T stat works great for getting the air out.

It has one. drilled the little sucker in there myself years ago when I built the motor.

[70charginglizard]

I had the same type of overheating problem that you described only I was running the green stuff.  It turned out that I had air in the system even though I thought I had it all out.  Firefighter told me a trick to get the air out, put the car on ramps so the filler neck for the rad is the highest most point on the car then start it up and with the cap off, let the engine warm up till the coolant starts to circulate.

Neat trick, cause after the coolant flush I did, I was running at 230 also and couldn't understand why.  Put the car up on the ramps and now it is running around 180 consistantly.

Well didn't work. Lifted it way up in the front and I did see some bubbles  when the thermostat opened up but very little. Took it out and again...it starts shooting up past 230-250. Bring it home and its all PO'd again shooting radiator fluid into the overflow again after shut down.
This is just frustrating! I'm about at my wits end. This is what I get for trying to do something for it to mechanically preserve it. Nice clean radiator for the winter with some new antifreeze and this is how it treats me.
I think I'm just gonna put the cover over it and forget about it till spring. Maybe then I'll be motivated enough to put another radiator in there. Perhaps a 26" 5 core hemi one! Jam that sucker in there somehow and forget about overheating ever again 

[resq302]

When the car is running and the t-stat is supposedly open, how much is the coolant moving when you look down inside the filler neck of the radiator?  I am almost wondering if you have a blockage somewhere other than the radiator that is not allowing the coolant to circulate.  If you are seeing the coolant moving around or aggitating inside the filler neck, I have heard of water pumps having the impeller shear off yet still have the shaft be in place on the pump.  Externally it appear fine, no wobble or leaks but inside the propellar is not moving or spinning a lot slower than what it should.

Did you replace the t-stat on your car?  If not, might be a quick and easy fix.  I have seen stats go bad after one use as the stuff they are making now is no where near the quality they used to be.

Another thing I have seen is when someone flushes a cooling system, they sometime free up corrosion that was sealing a gasket, like a head gasket.  This would cause an over heating issue too.  Do you have steam or white smoke coming out the exhaust? 

Your lower radiator hose should have a coiled thin metal spring inside it to prevent it from collapsing under higher rpm's.  How old is your lower rad hose?  Do you have the spring inside?  If not, take a wire coat hanger and just coil it around and put it inside the hose making sure to bend the ends of the hanger pointing inside the hose so it does not puncture the rad hose.

Also, a coolant leak, even the slightest one can cause it to overheat I have found.

Overheating issues can be caused by a lot of different reasons even something as simple as timing.  I have been there myself and it is frustrating as hell.  Take your time, and systematically look it over and I am sure you will fix it.

Also, does it over heat on the highway or around town at low speeds?  If you can tell us which seems worse, it will help us pin point what the problem might be.

[70charginglizard]

When the car is running and the t-stat is supposedly open, how much is the coolant moving when you look down inside the filler neck of the radiator? Lots. When I rev it up it really gets moving. I have noticed that it will spills up and over the radiator if I rpm it real good. (blockage???), Now when I back flushed it using the hose to connected to the heater line, the water was back flowing real good out of the top of the radiator which leads me to believe that water is flowing real good thru the radiator in a back flow mode. I am almost wondering if you have a blockage somewhere other than the radiator that is not allowing the coolant to circulate.  If you are seeing the coolant moving around or aggitating inside the filler neck, I have heard of water pumps having the impeller shear off yet still have the shaft be in place on the pump.  Externally it appear fine, no wobble or leaks but inside the propellar is not moving or spinning a lot slower than what it should.

Did you replace the t-stat on your car?  No. Its the same one I put in there when I built the motor about 3 years ago. I took it out and checked if it was funtioning by placing it in a pan of boiling water. It is working fine opened right upjust before the water started to boil. If not, might be a quick and easy fix.  I have seen stats go bad after one use as the stuff they are making now is no where near the quality they used to be.

Another thing I have seen is when someone flushes a cooling system, they sometime free up corrosion that was sealing a gasket, like a head gasket.  This would cause an over heating issue too.  Do you have steam or white smoke coming out the exhaust?  White smoke that disipates as the engine warms up.

Your lower radiator hose should have a coiled thin metal spring inside it to prevent it from collapsing under higher rpm's. Yep. Mine has this. How old is your lower rad hose? Bought a brand new one when I built the motor 3 years ago. Do you have the spring inside? Yes. If not, take a wire coat hanger and just coil it around and put it inside the hose making sure to bend the ends of the hanger pointing inside the hose so it does not puncture the rad hose.

Also, a coolant leak, even the slightest one can cause it to overheat I have found. Absolutely no coolant leaking from anywhere. I've been watching for this very closely.

Overheating issues can be caused by a lot of different reasons even something as simple as timing.  I've adjusted the timing to spec and checked it twice. I have been there myself and it is frustrating as hell.  Take your time, and systematically look it over and I am sure you will fix it.

Also, does it over heat on the highway or around town at low speeds? It use to only overheat at low speeds when stuck in traffic but it started getting hot even at regular driving speeds. Wouldn't bust out at those speeds but as soon as I pulled over and shut er down old faithfull would start screaming into the radiator overfill. Thats why I did the flush last weekend figuring it was time for one. But it seemed to make it even worse. I even flushed it again thinking perhaps I broke some corrosion off and plugged it something but it didn't help. So to answer your question, currently it overheats sitting at idle and it also will overheat cruising at highway speeds. If you can tell us which seems worse, it will help us pin point what the problem might be.

[MorePwr]

The more I hear about water trying to leave the system and bubbles, the more I'm thinking head gasket or cracked head...I've had two in the past fail between a water port and an exhaust port. the end result is exhaust entering the cooling system creating lots of extra pressure. If you think that's a possability, take it to an emissions shop and have em take their exhaust sniffer and sniff the water for hydro carbons. again this happened to me twice, without the telltale water out the exhaust or in the oil.

Other than that, I'd say radiator.

Aaron

[Blue Pentastar]

What kind of fan are you running is it a clutch fan  by any chance?

Just a thought.

Mike

[70charginglizard]

The more I hear about water trying to leave the system and bubbles, the more I'm thinking head gasket or cracked head...I've had two in the past fail between a water port and an exhaust port. the end result is exhaust entering the cooling system creating lots of extra pressure. If you think that's a possability, take it to an emissions shop and have em take their exhaust sniffer and sniff the water for hydro carbons. again this happened to me twice, without the telltale water out the exhaust or in the oil.

Other than that, I'd say radiator.

Aaron

The bubbles only occured when I had it jacked up attempting to burp it. even at that the bubbles were very minor and stopped very quickly.

When I got it back down the bubbling stopped completely. but the water did overflow out of the radiator after warm up when I rpm'd the motor up. Not very much though. and I think I had it topped off a little to much anyway so I could watch the bubble activity.

[70charginglizard]

What kind of fan are you running is it a clutch fan  by any chance?

Just a thought.

Mike

Nope. it's a straight 7 blade fan. I've been told to steer away from the clutch fans by almost 3/4 of the mopar people I've talked to.

[70charginglizard]

About the only thing I haven't done to help prevent overheating that I know of is upgrading from a 22 inch 3 core radiator to a 26 inch 4 core hemi radiator. Which is a major investment because all my charger 22 inch radiator suport housing would have to be pulled out and replaced with charger 26 inch radiator support housing to make it look correct.

Seen one on e-bay for e-body-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-70-74-BARRACUDA-CHALLENGER-26-RADIATOR-SUPPORT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ42611QQihZ014QQitemZ330028781060QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

but I never seem to see one for b-body's and I'm not going to jury rig a 26 inch radiator in there unless the housing for it is corrected.


not to mention the cost of a brand new hemi radiator. Ouch. 

I'm thinkin that it maybe could also be the carb running to lean perhaps. 
I'll have to pull some spark plugs out tonight and take a look at that I think.   

[resq302]

Just thinking about what you said that when you raised the RPM's that the coolant would over flow...  I know when I was doing my "burp" procedure, when I increased the RPM's, the coolant level dropped down and then would rush up and almost overflow when I let off on the throttle.

With doing a reverse flush, did you block off or clamp the upper rad hose?  The heater hoses go into the area for the water pump and if the water pump is not turning, the water will follow the path of least resistance.  Chances are the water was filling up the water pump housing then going up through the thermostat and out the upper rad hose and then going through the radiator and out.  If you block off the upper rad hose, that will force the water to reverse flow through the radiator.  Or if you have a radiator shop close by, you can take out your rad to them and have them flow test it to see if you do have any restrictions.  My local rad shop did that and verified that my rad was in great shape.

[41husk]

has anyone used the "ice water" anti freeze?  It is supposed to lower engine temp 10 Degrees.

[myk]

Is that like the "water-wetter" stuff?  I've been meaning to give it a try...

[resq302]

Water wetter did seem to help my car out when it still had air in the system.  Made it run about 10 degrees cooler.  Basically that stuff breaks the surface tension of the water to make it absorb the heat better.

[41husk]

so there is no problem using that product?