Got rid of my Daytona on Friday...
;)
Well, sorta...
Thursday afternoon (yes, Thanksgiving Day) I hopped into my pickup truck and headed out towing an enclosed trailer with the Daytona and all the parts I've gathered in 4 years worth of scrounging. Around 2:30am local time I pulled into a motel about 20 miles from Grand Haven, MI.
About 9am I started unloading everything at Vance Cummins' shop in Grand Haven. With that, the restoration on my Daytona has started. Literally... The car hadn't been in their shop an hour before his guys started with the wrenches taking things off. Vance decided it would be better to go ahead and get the car stripped down and taken to the blasting shop that he uses before the worst part of winter sets in. They would have had the nosecone off and disassembled if we hadn't decided to try and figure out a few "unique" things that were on my nosecone which Vance had not seen before. Depending on how smoothly things go and whether we have any delays looking for parts, he had estimated it would only take 8 months to get the car done.
Now I know there are several guys on here that cringe at the thought of farming out the complete restoration of a car. In my mind, a car like an original Daytona deserves a better restoration than what an amateur bodyman like myself could give it. I would rather for people to enjoy seeing the car, not be appalled at my lack of bodywork skills :o
Anyway, here are some pics of the car before I started loading it up and once I got up to Grand Haven.
A couple more pics
Oh boy now the fun really begins! Good luck Geno! :cheers:
Some other cars in Vance's Shop included Bill Card's Daytona less than a day before the eBay auction ended (pics below). There was also a really sweet FC7 Challenger T/A that was almost finished up (see pics). He also had an FM3 '70 Roadrunner, '70 Hemi GTX, '66 Hemi Belvedere Post Coupe, '68 Hemi Coronet Convertible, and 2 '70 Cuda 6-pack cars that I could see.
I mentioned that it must be cool to see all those rare cars day in and day out. Vance shrugged and said that he sorta got used to them. Me? If I was working there I'd have to mash my thumb pretty good to lose the big ol' grin from my mug... :D
Quote from: Just 6T9_CHGR.... on November 27, 2006, 09:24:12 AM
Oh boy now the fun really begins! Good luck Geno! :cheers:
Thanks, Chris... I can't wait to see what Vance's shopping list is for all the parts I HAVEN'T found yet. I might be up at Carlisle next year looking for more than just a headlight bulb. BTW, he liked the one I got 2 years ago... ;D
Hey Geno !!
The adventure beginth !!!! Congrad's on the long a' waited day.. Good luck on the resto, and I'll get that hood seal out to you soon...... Promise.. lol
I totally agree with you about the farming out of paint-n-body work.. Im doing it myself on the hemi-car...... Now, I will have it home to do the rest once it's painted.......
:2thumbs:
Troy
Wow! I'm sure you must be pumped. Hopefully you'll be able to take it out by the end of summer time. Do they have a website that you can view the progress?
Hope all goes well. :yesnod:
BTW - how did you come to decide that Vance Cummin's shop was the place to get your car done?
Thanks guys... I hope it all goes smoothly too!
LilRed, Vance doesn't have a website that I know of. They will be sending me pictures, and I plan to make myself visible there on a regular basis as well. An 8 hour drive each way is manageable for me, and I'll be dying of curiosity to see for myself how things are going. When I get pics, I'll post at least some of them here.
Shakey - the reason I chose Vance is mostly because of his knowledge of the Daytonas. I honestly wanted someone to restore the car that knows more about them than I do. There were several guys that I had talked to about doing the car, and most of them did not know the intricate details of how these cars were assembled - and I was concerned that they wouldn't restore it correctly. I didn't want to have to be the one who "ran" the restoration of the car, or to have to pay for a restoration guy while he was learning all those details. Oh yeah, and it didn't hurt that Vance has an awesome collection of NOS parts of his own and some good "inside" connections with the major parts vendors. There's a whole lot of people who restore cars for a living, and many of them do excellent work. Vance has done a bunch of high-dollar cars for some big names (Harold Sullivan for one), but that wasn't as important to me as his understanding and knowledge of the Daytonas.
Those Daytona-specific details are also the reason that I'm having Vance do the final assembly work rather than doing it myself (like Troy is doing). If the goal is to do a factory-correct restoration (which is indeed my goal), then the detail work continues all the way through to the very end. From my perspective, the best way to accomplish the goal is to have a true Daytona specialist do the car from start to finish.
Can't say I blame you!
Keep us posted of the restoration and be sure to post some progress pics. :thumbs:
You Great Lakes NOS is not too far from there..... :scope:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 27, 2006, 10:50:02 AM
I didn't want to have to be the one who "ran" the restoration of the car, or to have to pay for a restoration guy while he was learning all those details.
The second part of your statement is a HUGE deal. There was a recent article by the Mike Sheehan, the Ferrari columnist in Sports Car Market magazine, which talked about a particular enthusiast who had to re-do much of his restoration on his Ferrari Daytona, because the original shop performing the restoration knew English cars, but not Ferraris. The guy spent much more, and a lot of wasted time than had he bit the bullet and had it done right the first time. In your case, it's more than just even taking it to a shop familiar with Mopar.
Although you're spending some money to get this done, here are three reasons why you have nothing but upside on the deal:
1. Life is short. The car will be done and you will be able to enjoy it. That's the best part, right there.
2. The car will be done to an extremely high standard.
3. The car is being done by a Daytona expert, who has some name recognition, and will help you at resale time, when and if that happens.
Your car has been off the road for so many years, and deserves the pampered treatment. I wish I could do the same with mine.
Quote from: DougSchellinger on November 27, 2006, 12:29:24 PM
Your car has been off the road for so many years, and deserves the pampered treatment. I wish I could do the same with mine.
Me too. does the guy know the details about C500's? :ahum: maybe when i win the lottery i can send my car over the pond.
Congrats its off to the resto shop Vance does fantastic work .I saved this old link from a older post of Hemi Genos .With the 69 daytona before resto pictures
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hemigeno/my_photos
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hemigeno/album?.dir=bbcc&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hemigeno/my_photos
I'm jealous ! Must feel good to get it started by Vance, and looks like he is jumping right on it !
Wow you've had this car since 1980?? whats the story on it if you havent menitoned it somewhere before?
Congrats. Sounds like you've done your homework. I've heard many a horror story about the guys that didn't take the time to do the research. We're currently re-restoring a one owner 68 firebird that was just restored by another resto shop to the tune of $20,000. The car was horrible. It's obvious that there were several different guys working on the car during the two years that it was there since a few areas were repaired correctly and other areas were repaired incorrectly to put it mildly. Maybe botched would be a better term.
Can't wait to see the progress. Oh, and that extra brace holding the nose on was interesting. Looks like it at least did the job.
Quote from: DougSchellinger on November 27, 2006, 12:29:24 PM
it's more than just even taking it to a shop familiar with Mopar.
Most definitely!!
Quote from: DougSchellinger on November 27, 2006, 12:29:24 PM
Although you're spending some money to get this done, here are three reasons why you have nothing but upside on the deal:
1. Life is short. The car will be done and you will be able to enjoy it. That's the best part, right there.
2. The car will be done to an extremely high standard.
3. The car is being done by a Daytona expert, who has some name recognition, and will help you at resale time, when and if that happens.
Great summarization, although I hope that the economic "benefit" of #3 doesn't have to kick in...
Quote from: PocketThunder on November 27, 2006, 04:10:30 PM
Wow you've had this car since 1980?? whats the story on it if you havent menitoned it somewhere before?
No, not quite... I started working on the deal to buy the car in early 2002, but didn't pick it up until August, 2003.
The 1980 pictures in that photo album were from Doug Schellinger & the DSAC. The car was briefly - and I do mean briefly - for sale in 1980, so the owner at the time had sent in pictures and a short note about the car to Monroe Schellinger with the intention of listing the car for sale. From what I was told, the car was actually sold locally before the DSAC ad ever ran.
When I registered the car with DSAC, Doug was kind enough to send me the pictures of the car that they had received way-back-when (thanks again, Doug!!). That's how I ended up with that batch of pictures, which do tell me a lot about the car and its original/stock condition. It honestly hasn't changed a whole lot since then, to be honest. The 1982 pictures were given to me by the fella that I bought the car from, and they were taken when he went and picked it up from Kansas City, KS.
I don't have time at the moment, but I'll post the story of the car sometime. Some of you guys are probably sick of those details, but maybe others haven't seen it since all that info was posted on the old D-C.com board.
Quote from: hotrod98 on November 27, 2006, 04:51:06 PM
Congrats. Sounds like you've done your homework. I've heard many a horror story about the guys that didn't take the time to do the research. We're currently re-restoring a one owner 68 firebird that was just restored by another resto shop to the tune of $20,000. The car was horrible. It's obvious that there were several different guys working on the car during the two years that it was there since a few areas were repaired correctly and other areas were repaired incorrectly to put it mildly. Maybe botched would be a better term.
Can't wait to see the progress. Oh, and that extra brace holding the nose on was interesting. Looks like it at least did the job.
Larry, your Poncho story is almost the exact scenario I was hoping would not play out - and that was a big reason I went the direction I did.
That "extra" brace holding the nose on was doing more than just holding it on. It had pulled the edge of the nosecone in probably a good inch on each side. I hadn't paid too much attention to it, but someone went to a great deal of trouble to put that brace in there, suck the edge of the nosecone in (which didn't help the fitment to the fenders any at all), and they used a bunch of bondo to hide the evidence. Here's a picture of the outside of the fender when they ground through about 1/2" of mud:
good luck with the resto ( Geno) , good pictures - intresting :yesnod: , looking forward to seeing more pictures as you progress :popcrn:
Good Luck Geno, I hope it all goes smooth. :thumbs:
I was told Vance did the resto on the Daytona Chris Sauer used to own. Maybe Dave can confirm this? That Daytona was also featured in a magazine a few years back, and they called it the greatest restored Daytona or something.
Quote from: Chris G. on November 27, 2006, 07:13:28 PM
Good Luck Geno, I hope it all goes smooth. :thumbs:
I was told Vance did the resto on the Daytona Chris Sauer used to own. Maybe Dave can confirm this? That Daytona was also featured in a magazine a few years back, and they called it the greatest restored Daytona or something.
That Daytona of Chris' gave Vance a great deal of his insight into how Daytonas were made. That was a 16,000 mile all-original car that wasn't in too bad a shape. Vance did that car's resto somewhere around 1994 from what he said. There is a magazine spread hanging on their office wall from 1996 showing that car, and it did say something about it being the best resto'd Daytona. It is almost an exact twin to my car, except his has power brakes & power steering, 3-speed wipers and maybe another couple of minor options. It's still an R4 black interior/black stripe 4-speed Daytona...
Bill Card's Daytona was sitting there in Vance's shop - and it still looks pretty dang good for being a 17 year old resto job. All it really needed was a thorough cleaning and it would have been awesome (and it wasn't far from it anyway). Vance said that as nice as Mr. Card's car is, Chris' car turned out much nicer, in part because even in that short time period the methods and materials that resto shops had at their disposal changed that much.
Here's hoping that the last 12 years' worth of product improvements will allow my car to turn out just as nice! :cheers:
Congrats and great pics! :cheers:
you should restore it to like the king daytona :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: THE CHARGER PUNK on November 27, 2006, 08:00:50 PM
you should restore it to like the king daytona :icon_smile_big:
I don't have the biceps for that...
:P
Hang in there Geno. Sounds like you're on the best path for a beautiful Daytona!
Phil
Vance Cummings did Billy Cards and Chris Sauers 69 daytonas.They turn out nice work.Hemi Geno car is in good hands. I believe Vance resto shop was in Ferrysburg back when he had Billy cards car.Cummins Restoration Grand Haven,From saving Billy Cards daytona ebay link states
I chose Vance Cummins of Grand Haven, Michigan to lead the effort because of his specific Chrysler knowledge, craftsmanship and an incredible customer base including the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, other high profile Chrysler executives and collectors alike. Vance knew that this Daytona, because of its history and unique credentials, was something very special indeed."
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-Daytona-Day-One-Daytona_W0QQitemZ280049379354QQihZ018QQcategoryZ6199QQcmdZViewItem
Geno, I am excited for you and I have only seen the car once, but I am already looking foreward to deeing it finished.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 27, 2006, 04:51:59 PM
I don't have time at the moment, but I'll post the story of the car sometime. Some of you guys are probably sick of those details, but maybe others haven't seen it since all that info was posted on the old D-C.com board.
When you have the time, I'd like to read it. :yesnod:
Looks like it had a dash & engine fire prior to 1980, I'm glad more of the car wasn't harmed.
Congrats on beginning your resto, that's gotta feel pretty great! :icon_smile_big:
The car is in good hands now Gene. Not that it wasn't when it was at your place, but it will definately get the royal treatment now.
So what is the timetable, 2 years?
Good luck, hope all goes well Geno :yesnod:
I am not that far from there. If you need me to go check on it for you (take it for a spin or something) please don't hesitate to ask. :icon_smile_big:
sweet you should do it up like ti would have looked when new with big tires on it and air shocks in the back.
Well, I finally dug around and found the old emails that I had written up before which recalls the conversations I have had with the 1st and 2nd owners of my car. Most of this was posted on the old D-C.com board, so it might be old news for some. PocketThunder and Charger Fan had asked what the story on my car was, so for PT, C/F and those of you who care to read long, sordid tales, here ya go...
Hey Dave,
You might find this hard to believe, but last night I spoke with the original owner of the Red Daytona!!!
It took me almost a year to locate this guy, mostly because the State of Missouri doesn't get in a hurry to do things, especially records search requests!
The first search request we turned in came back empty, it was done under the car's CORRECT vin - xx29... So, we decided to send in a request under the INCORRECT vin just to be safe (you might remember that the Iowa title to the car still showed xs29, like the surrendered Missouri title did). The second and third requests were never returned by the State, but the fourth one was sent to me yesterday... Sure enough, it had the name of the guy who titled the car brand new in March of 1970!
Since I know that the car was sent out to the dealer from Detroit in late August 1969, we can easily figure that the car sat at St. Joseph Dodge for SIX MONTHS before this guy walked in. His name is Terry C. Alden, and he lived in Cameron, Missouri then, about 35 miles to the east of St. Joe. He said he was in St. Joe just looking around when he saw the car on the showroom floor, and his immediate response was "That looks COOL!!! - I GOTTA buy that car!!!" So he did (by trading in his '68 SuperBee), and drove it for 20k miles or so. He told me that he took care of the car, and that it was never hit while he had it. Some of the stories he told me of drag racing it locally, several 140mph interstate runs (my guess is that the motor would have been turning between 6,700 and 7,000 rpms to do that), and the fact that he had to stop letting his brother borrow the car because of what the neighbors told him the brother DID with the car, all make me believe that the drivetrain did not have an easy life. Terry also told me that he kept breaking the alternator bracket bolt off at the block when he would do a hard launch... DEFINITELY a hard life for that motor!
It comes as no surprise then that the car started using oil. By then, Terry and his wife had moved to K.C., MO, and he started going to a local Dodge dealer to get the oil problem fixed. They gave him all sorts of stories as to what it was, but they never got it fixed. Terry told me the dealer did replace the piston rings in the car once, but that it was still using oil. He said the dealer had resorted to doing "Oil Consumption Tests" every time he would come into the dealership to complain. That amounted to topping the car off with oil, and sending him back out on the road for a few weeks to see how much oil it would use over a given period of time/miles. Terry said all that amounted to was an attempt by the dealership to have him rack up enough miles to run the car out of warranty!
He finally got so fed up with the car that he went back to his hometown dealership in Cameron, MO where an old friend of the family worked (a former State Trooper), who he felt would treat him right on a trade-in. He traded the car in as partial payment on a 1972 'Cuda in October of '72. The second owner (William "Gerry" Meade) bought it from that Cameron Dealership and titled it on November 27, 1972.
As far as recollections of the car, Terry remembered it pretty well - orange/red, black stripe, black interior, etc.... He said he had thought of the car quite a bit over the years, and especially when he recently read an article about a Superbird being sold for $70,000. I told him that was an average price for a 'Bird, and that 6-pack's and Hemi's went for much more than that! He sure regrets selling it (as do most guys who bought something like that new and later sold it), but he was fed up with the oil problem enough that he just wanted rid of it at the time.
He promised me that he would look around and see if he had any paperwork, pictures, etc. He thought he bought the car for "a little over $3,000", although my research shows that the car should have stickered out at around $4,390.40 (before shipping/destination & any dealer prep charges). Perhaps because the car had sat for 6 months they were willing to slash the price... who knows... I told him about the second owner finding the car on the lot with a $2,600 price tag, and him being able to buy it for $1,700... Terry just sighed... I also told him that Gerry Meade had been able to talk Chrysler into replacing the motor under warranty. He said he had asked for that a whole lot of times, but got nowhere. I suppose Gerry just knew which buttons to push, and how high up the food chain he needed to complain to in order to GET a new motor.
Here's the second chapter in my car's ownership saga:
Hi Dave,
What I've found out about the second owner so far is:
The car was sold used by a Chrysler/Plymouth dealer in Cameron, Missouri, in 1972. Cameron is only 35 miles east of St. Joseph, where the car was originally sold from (St. Joseph Dodge). This dealership was located in the equivalent of an old barn, and wasn't much to look at (it no longer exists, by the way). The dealer had a sticker price on the car of $2,600. The interested buyer, William (Gerry) Meade, said he had only $1,700 in the bank and he told the dealer he was interested in the car, but had only that much to pay. The dealer thought about it, and took the deal. The car had between 22,000 and 24,000 miles on it from Mr. Meade's recollection.
Gerry took the car home over a weekend (don't know if he drove or pulled it), and drove it to work that first Monday. On the way to work, he said he noticed that the car's oil pressure dropped to Zero lbs. when the rpm's went over 3,000. Since the car had such relatively few miles on it, and it was only 3 years old at the time, Gerry took it to Mitch Crawford Chry-Ply in Raytown, MO (near his home in KC, MO). He said he had a dickens of a time convincing them to fix the motor under warranty, and ended up calling in the local Chrysler factory sales rep to strong-arm Mitch Crawford C-P into performing the warranty work. Typical of the time (and at some dealerships now), they said "Take it back to the dealership it was purchased from". Mr. Meade didn't know where it came from, but I found out that by that time St. Joseph Dodge had been shut down by Chrysler anyway for shady business practices.
After finally convincing the dealer to do the work under warranty, they took the motor out, and replaced it with a factory short block. They re-used the cylinder heads, manifolds, carb, etc from the old motor. I'm personally not sure if they would have re-used the water pump or not. The block that I took with the car (unstamped, etc.) has a casting date of 6/29/73, which probably means that the engine block swap was done by the dealer in late summer or the fall of 1973.
The dealership got their revenge on Mr. Meade in two ways. They first put the clutch disc in backwards, which caused the disc's springs to grind away at the flywheel boltheads. It also caused the clutch disc to bend in the center due to the lack of proper clearances. They ran the motor enough to get rid of most of the grinding noises before Gerry came to pick up the car, so he didn't notice this problem at first. He said that later when the clutch was replaced, they did not replace the flywheel bolts. He was curious to know if the flywheel was still on the warranty block, since he said it would in all likelihood have had those same ground-down bolts attaching it.
The second thing the dealer did to get back at him was to deform the spark plug wire retainer clips so that the plug wires would fall off. Gerry said that there were 4 or 5 plug wires off by the time he got to the end of the block after picking up the car.
When he got the car in serviceable condition, he said he had a grand time driving it. Top speed he remembered being around 110mph with the 3.54 gears. He did remember the car handling great once the speed got up close to 100, and he said it handled "at speed" MUCH better than his RoadRunner. Around town, he preferred the 'Runner, because it had a 383, no long nose to worry about, and he didn't have to worry about getting stared at quite as much.
He had a few problems with cops pulling him over for loud exhaust (he ran Thrush mufflers). He was once honked off the road by a man on the day the 1974 Daytona 500 was run. Gerry thought he had something wrong with the car, so he pulled over. The man had his young son with him, and he wanted to show the son what a car looked like that had run in the Daytona 500 in previous years.
Gerry got into Mopars when he was discharged from the service in 1970 (he didn't say if he served in Vietnam, or elsewhere). His sister's husband had just purchased a Duster, and it ran real good. Gerry saw a new Superbird sitting on a dealer's lot in Harrisonville, MO (where the sister & her hubby lived), which is about a half-hour drive to the southeast of Kansas City. His brother-in-law tried talking him into getting the Superbird, but he ended up buying that 383 RoadRunner instead. That exposure whetted his appetite for the wing cars, however.
When Gerry got married, the wife needed a car, and started driving the 'Runner. That left Gerry to drive the Daytona back & forth to work (at Hallmark Cards), which he did daily for 2 years. After that, they got another car and he drove the car only on weekends. All told, he said he put about 20,000 miles on it.
Gerry said that his wife's brother was big into drag-racing at the time, and a friend of that brother-in-law had a Race Hemi motor setting in the corner that Gerry said he would have slapped in the Daytona had it not involved a K-frame conversion (which he didn't have). At any rate, this B-I-L was keen on Holley carburetors, and insisted that Gerry take the AFB off and replace it with a double pumper. When they made the swap, they discovered that the stock fuel line was too short to bend and hook up to the Holley (if I'm not mistaken, they take a different thread connector too). They "solved" the problem by using that clear plastic fuel line that was popular back then. This was what killed the car. Gerry decided to drive the car to work one day in 1977, and that fuel line either broke, or came off of the carburetor, spilling fuel all over the top of the hot motor. It ignited, and burned at the corner of Parvin Road and I-435 (just south of Worlds of Fun, according to Gerry). The fire department got there quickly, but the car was not driveable after that fire.
At any rate, the car was towed after the fire department got done with it to a service station in Liberty, Missouri. That's where someone got in the car and stole the Hurst "T" handle shifter knob, that Gerry told me was stock equipment. Before he told me that, he quizzed me to find out if there was a shifter knob on the shifter. When I told him no, he explained why there wasn't one.
Gerry needed a place to go with the car, since it wasn't driveable, and he had no place to store it at his house. His brother-in-law (the same one that talked him into the Holley) let him store the car alongside a barn at his house. They didn't cover the car up, they just parked it. As a few years passed, the seals rotted out on the trunk, and the quarter panels and trunkfloor damage came as a result of that exposure. The crude body work on that QP had come about when Gerry was hit by a guy who veered into Gerry's lane and ran his bumper partially down his car. The guy that did the damage was supposedly a body man, and said he'd fix it right up, no problem. He did not replace the quarter, they just did the rough patch job with the pop-riveted metal that you know all about. The body putty came out when the car sat alongside the barn.
In 1980, Gerry and his wife went through a divorce. The Brother-In-Law was fixing to be his EX Brother-In-Law, and he needed somewhere to go with the car fast. That's when he mentioned at work to a couple of people that he had this Daytona for sale. Bill Beck (with financial help from a fella named Gene Sanders) purchased it, and sold it within about a week to David June. Bill and Gene bought the car in December of 1980, and I'm assuming you bought the car in 1982 from Mr. June (judging from the title). The ownership picture goes like this:
Terry Alden 1969 - 1972
William "Gerry" Meade 1972 - 1980
Bill Beck / Gene Sanders 1980
David June 1980 - 1982
David H. 1982 - 2003
Gene Lewis 2003
Hemigeno;;;;;;;Well Geno, sounds like you are ready to start depleting your savings account! Sounds like you are doing the right thing, Good Luck
I have waited a year to get the black car in the body shop I wanted, about a month ago he told me " just did'nt have time to do it" so I took it back to shop that did red car, and wait at least another 6 mon,. At least, it's only 4 mile away, I can keep tabs on it. One good thing,, wont have to bring this one back from a total wreck, like the red car was. "
Keep on keepin on." 3--daytona
Quote from: 69_500 on November 28, 2006, 08:14:11 PM
So what is the timetable, 2 years?
Actually, Vance said he could possibly get it done in 8 months :o I'm not pushing him to get it done on any particular timetable though.
Quote from: wingedone on November 30, 2006, 03:06:04 PM
Good luck, hope all goes well Geno :yesnod:
I am not that far from there. If you need me to go check on it for you (take it for a spin or something) please don't hesitate to ask. :icon_smile_big:
Let me know if you happen to see it flying by your house, wouldya? :P
Quote from: 3--Daytona on December 11, 2006, 01:39:11 PM
Hemigeno;;;;;;;Well Geno, sounds like you are ready to start depleting your savings account! Sounds like you are doing the right thing, Good Luck
I have waited a year to get the black car in the body shop I wanted, about a month ago he told me " just did'nt have time to do it" so I took it back to shop that did red car, and wait at least another 6 mon,. At least, it's only 4 mile away, I can keep tabs on it. One good thing,, wont have to bring this one back from a total wreck, like the red car was. "
Keep on keepin on." 3--daytona
JIM!! Good to hear from ya! You already know full well what it takes to put one of these things back on the road - and yet you still chose to jump in and do the black car. Guess the red car's resto process didn't scar (or scare) you too badly. Sorry to hear that you had to find another body shop. That has to be a hassle to go through, but I hope the rest goes smoother for you.
I enjoyed reading those two e-mails you posted Geno! cool stuff
Cool story Geno. :yesnod: thanks for posting. :cheers:
btw: i never heard back from the guy in the Farmington, MO area about the hemi block he thought he had that might be for your R/T. When i find his name and number i'll send it to you and you could try him again.
Thanks Hemi Geno for the past history on your daytona interesting stuff .I remember Dave K daytona had a interesting life story.Gives people insight to what these cars went through in there day
Glad to see Jim posting on the board again.
Gene, when is your next planned trip up to check the car out? Christmas weekend? JK.
Considering you dropped it off on Thanksgiving I figured that would be a good day to go and check it out.
Next time you plan on heading up that way give me a shout, and maybe I'll swing up that way to check it out with ya, if you don't mind.
Thanks for posting your car's story Geno, that's pretty neat! It is sorta sad to visualize it's decline, though. At least this next chapter yet to be written, will be a good one. :thumbs:
I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?
Geno
Good luck with the resto. After all the money and time spent on these projects there still worth it. Aint they :laugh:?
Ed
hemigeno,, A Hurst "T" handle is possible as original.I have the April`69 Super/Stock magazine,in it are two road tests.One a hemi 500 4spd with a flocked(like a velvet covering) T handle.The other a Coronet R/T 440 4spd with a T handle as well.
UFO anyway to scan in those pictures your talking about?
Glad you guys have enjoyed "the rest of the story". I really hope to take the car up to KC after it is done, since I think those previous owners would really like to see the car back together and on the road. I'll just remember not to let Terry Alden drive it, or let Gerry Meade work on the fuel line... :P
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
Gene, when is your next planned trip up to check the car out? Christmas weekend?
If Vance got it done by Christmas, I'd be tempted to be there Christmas morning to pick it up.
[pleading voice]
Kids, Daddy needs to go to Michigan, since Santa needs this special sleigh with a wing on it to make his deliveries on time. No, really!
[/pleading voice]
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
Next time you plan on heading up that way give me a shout, and maybe I'll swing up that way to check it out with ya, if you don't mind.
Sure, I'll let ya know. Might be a good time for me to give you those resto tapes too. Probably will be the week after Christmas, but my schedule is always subject to change.
Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on December 11, 2006, 07:16:45 PM
I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?
Dave had the car for 21 years :o and yeah he pretty much came to the conclusion that it was going to be hard for him to restore all his cars (plural). That's a whole 'nother story though.
Quote from: XXHEMI on December 11, 2006, 07:30:57 PM
Good luck with the resto. After all the money and time spent on these projects there still worth it. Aint they :laugh:?
Thanks, Ed - and don't even tease about it not being worth it. They are worth the trouble, right? right??
Quote from: UFO on December 11, 2006, 07:32:21 PM
hemigeno,, A Hurst "T" handle is possible as original.I have the April`69 Super/Stock magazine,in it are two road tests.One a hemi 500 4spd with a flocked(like a velvet covering) T handle.The other a Coronet R/T 440 4spd with a T handle as well.
I don't doubt that the dealership could have installed the T-handle. Don't forget that the guy who told me that the T-handle was original-equipment was also the second owner of the car, and he bought it off a Used Car Lot in a one-horse town.
The original selling dealer did make two modifications to the car that they apparently also made to 3--Daytona's F5 Daytona (which sold from the same dealership). They painted both our cars' fender scoops and nosecone spoilers black, in an apparent attempt to match the stripe color and make these features stick out a little bit more. Guess the dealership was about to choke on these two cars which were languishing on their lot for 5-6 months and they were probably trying to spruce them up a bit. I would not put it past them to have added the T-handle as well. Of course, the Hamtramck-installed knob was a woodgrain variety, so that's what I'll go back to.
I know Fl and MO are some of the states that have motor vehicle historical services that get you copys of MSO and prior title historys.Where you can trace back a cars owner history.NJ doesnt.Imagine taking the serial numbes for all the MO 440-426 daytonas from the shipment list,And conduct a search :icon_smile_big:
We'll forgive you for farming out the full restoration. Some cars deserve such an involved process, and a daytona is one of those cars. Probably more so than almost any other car of that era. Glad to see you could track the car back to the original owners. I wish I had saved my money from my last dd car which i rebuilt at 100k miles and spent more than a decent restoration would have cost me on my own charger rtse.
These winged cars were very slow movers in the early 70s. I found a brand new 70 superbird on a chrysler lot in 1974, it had been a showroom model on the display floor, but they pulled it out and were ready to discount it to move it off. It was priced at 3000.00 with less than 300 miles on it, and a 440 six pack and a 4spd. My dad wasn't going to trust his 15 year old son with one at that age though.
Here ya go.
Heres the coronet R/T
good story (hemigeno ) , it made for some good reading :popcrn: , history on our cars like that from previous owners , i find fascinating / intresting :yesnod: .... good stuff ... thanks for posting the storys :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 11, 2006, 08:08:59 PM
Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on December 11, 2006, 07:16:45 PM
I'm guessing the David H. guy bought it & stashed it in a garage for 11 years, wanting to restore it, then deciding the reality was that he was never going to get to it?
Dave had the car for 21 years :o
DOH! :brickwall: Ok, so I can't add on a Monday. :image_294343:
Great stories on your winged wonder. I have family from St. Joe, still do. We went there back in the early 80's, late 70's but I don't remember any of it. I tried to get a title search on my car but state of Oregon wouldn't do it. ::)
You only get out of life what you put in it, like your car, what you're having done to it will pay off immensely in the long run. :icon_smile_wink: Your kids must be licking their chops.
I remember those Hurst handles being the "in" thing back then. Heck, I even had one in my /6 powered '70 Camaro back in '79. :-[
Well Gene, if it is on a weekend then let me know. I'm now off Saturday's and Sundays' with the new job. So I'd be more than happy to swing up there to check out the car and progress. Would also give me a chance to meet the restorer and ask him some questions about the video's.
Vance Cummins sent me some pictures a couple of weeks ago after my chassis came back from the media blaster, but I haven't had the time to resize and post them on the board. I finally got that done this morning, so here are the pictures. These first few pics of the wing uprights I've had for a while, and I think I posted some of them in another thread.
I'll have tons more to post in the near future.
More pics
Some sheet metal shots... :o
More...
Still more pics... and yes, the hood is the 1970 Charger hood (with the stiffening ribs) not the "real" Daytona hood that I brought to Vance. The Daytona hood is racked & twisted a bit, and has a LOT more rust than this '70 Charger hood does, which is why I brought him both hoods I had. Vance made the decision to cut out and smooth the stiffening ribs on the '70 hood rather than fix all the problems the "real" hood had. I told him that was alright as long as there were NO other differences in the stampings between the two styles. I think I'll put the Daytona hood back on the shelf in case someone someday finds an additional, obscure difference between the original hoods and '70 Charger hoods. Vance knows all about how they painted the hoods at Creative, etc. so by the time he's finished it should be impossible to tell that this is not an original Daytona hood - at least that's the plan...
More pics... The last one is pretty scary. That's what rust and a screwdriver will do to the edge of a decklid. Vance told me they've already fixed this up, and they didn't even have to cut up the rust-free regular Charger decklid I had brought him in order to make the repairs. Those guys must be really, really good...
Last batch of pics - for now...
Awesome Geno !!!! Looks like she needs some good ole' attention there, but there's nothing that can't be fixed it appears...... Still blows me away that MaMopar didn't put tachs as standard equipment on 4-speed cars.......
Troy
good progress going on there :yesnod: looks pretty solid from pictures . had to do a similar rust repair on my trunk lid also . thanks for posting the pictures (hemigeno) good stuff :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 27, 2007, 11:26:17 AM
Still blows me away that MaMopar didn't put tachs as standard equipment on 4-speed cars.......
I agree 100%, but strangely enough, I own two examples of that. Both my Hemicar and the Daytona are 4-speeds
sans tach. Someone else added the tach to the R/T and I don't care if it isn't called out on the Fender Tag - it's staying. Guess I'll keep just the clock on the Daytona since it's aimed more at a concours-level restoration.
Progress looks great, any estimate on completion? Do you go up and visit very often?
Also, that media blasting seems to do a great job............
Hello Gene,
Congrats with the car; looks good. I hope I can see it in driving order on some of the TDC-meets in 2008!
Keep up the good work,
Best regards,
Marcel,
the Netherlands
Allen,
I do not have an estimate of when Vance will be done with the car. Initially he had said 8 months, which would mean the end of July - but I'm not holding my breath. It gets done when it gets done... My ultimate deadline was the Talladega Reunion in September of '09, so I hope he can get it done by then :P Anything before that is gravy.
Plan "A" was for me to travel north once a month, but I haven't been up since I dropped the car off in November. I've made several attempts, but the car didn't get delivered back to him from the media blaster until Feb 8th or 9th. Vance was gone that weekend so I couldn't visit on the 10th; the 17th I was in Joplin, MO at a Basketball Tournament for my daughter, who also had her 16th birthday party on the 24th -- couldn't miss that, of course. MAYBE this weekend I can go up, but my wife is clammoring for me to go to a Dinner Auction fundraiser instead. :flame: If 69_500 (Danny) can go up this weekend also, taheck with the dinner auction, Michigan here I come...
Troy, I thought the media blaster did a good job also, but I'm anxious to see it myself. Pictures don't show everything, that's for sure.
Quote from: duo-stripe on February 27, 2007, 12:45:09 PM
Hello Gene,
Congrats with the car; looks good. I hope I can see it in driving order on some of the TDC-meets in 2008!
Keep up the good work,
Best regards,
Marcel,
the Netherlands
Thanks Marcel! Hope to see you stateside sometime as well. How did the deal for that A12 pan out?
WOW. :o Thats considered rust free where i come from. :yesnod:
Geno, It's great to see that progress, I think you will have no problem with 09, as far as a trip north, I can offer one little piece od advice I'm sure your well aware of, If momma aint happy no body is happy! Congrats on the sweet 16. Sounds like drivers license real soon. what car does she have he eye on the Hemi or Daytona :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2007, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: duo-stripe on February 27, 2007, 12:45:09 PM
Hello Gene,
Congrats with the car; looks good. I hope I can see it in driving order on some of the TDC-meets in 2008!
Keep up the good work,
Best regards,
Marcel,
the Netherlands
Thanks Marcel! Hope to see you stateside sometime as well. How did the deal for that A12 pan out?
M-code-issue passed..Owner is fixing it. The better part of this thing is that the car will be in great shape again; the current owner is restoring his 69 hemicharger at this moment, together with the 'Bee.
I am busy working on Dusty ( 72 Duster I have bought last summer in Houston ) and a little on my new house ;D
So enough to do. I am planning to meet Troy Hawkes again this summer and visit one of the TDC-meets, I hope we meet again Gene,
keep up the good work!!
The doors, hood, trunk lid & fenders...were they dipped and blasted? They look really clean. :thumbs:
Congrats, that's looking really sweet so far. :drool5:
QuoteIf momma aint happy no body is happy!
:yesnod: i have to agree with that
the car looks great after the trip to the blaster. he did a nice job on it . the metal looks real good. :2thumbs: i always get nervous when i blast a car . you never know what your gonna find. Rene
How deep in the ground was the time capsol you found your Daytona in. ;D The only part of your car comared to the old man's rust are the doors.His needed allot more metol work,, Man,, That's one sweet ride! :boogie:
Looking Good !
Thanks everyone!
I had mixed emotions when I saw the pictures. Parts of the car look a little worse than I expected, but parts of it looked honestly a lot better - but maybe that's just the fact that all the faded paint & surface rust is gone. I guess it could ALWAYS be worse, just like PT was alluding to. There are still some surprises to be found though, I'm sure. When they took the trunk floor out (yep, it was rusty enough to warrant that) they could then see inside the rear frame rails. The left one looks a little suspect, and might need to be replaced. The nice thing is that Frank Mitchell has left side rails available NOS... Just the lefts, not the rights - sometimes it pays to be lucky...
Grant, I don't think they dipped anything - it was all media blasted. Vance said that they will probably dip the nosecone, but that's about it. I had actually wanted him to dip the whole car, but he pretty much refused to do that. According to him, the problem is that they cannot fully neutralize the acid and/or get it out of every nook and cranny of the chassis, which will eventually cause problems with the paint. He was pretty adamant on that point, so I didn't push it. Vance said the doors were as good a set of doors as he's seen (from a rust standpoint anyway), and they are the original doors just like the decklid. Apart from the rust around the lip, I had always thought the decklid was in good shape and the results are showing now. That's probably why Vance decided to fix the rust at the lip, since the rest is in pretty good shape. He said that the exhaust fumes curling back up from the tailpipes was probably the cause of a lot of that rust. Any opinions on that?
QuoteHe said that the exhaust fumes curling back up from the tailpipes was probably the cause of a lot of that rust. Any opinions on that?
i never thought of that but it makes sense. with condensation in the pipes , there's gotta be some steam . steam rises. intresting. :scratchchin:
Hey Gene, saw this thread after we got off the phone. Talked it over with the sick wife, she has been sick all week now, including all weekend, and the last 3 days of last week. Anyways, no plans for this weekend, so I'm good to go. Only thing I had thought of doing was going to the INdy Swap meet and selling some DVD's and toy cars. However I was too lazy to get a booth space yet, so nothing to keep me here for.
Have Camera's will travel. :)
I guess Vance's sand blast guy is better than some then, the stuff just looks cleaner than usual. Nuttin' wrong with that. ;D
Quote from: BigBlockSam on February 27, 2007, 04:18:53 PM
QuoteHe said that the exhaust fumes curling back up from the tailpipes was probably the cause of a lot of that rust. Any opinions on that?
i never thought of that but it makes sense. with condensation in the pipes , there's gotta be some steam . steam rises. intresting. :scratchchin:
That's a first on me, but I could sorta see that happening. Anyone who's driven a 2nd gen Charger for any length of time has noticed that the air sorta swirls around back there. I was constantly having to clean the dust & dirt from my tail lights, even after a 20 minute drive. I suppose the exhaust would swirl back there too, then.
hemigeno, Did that car spent any time in the snow belt?A relative of mine had a 69 charger after some highway miles the entire tailpanel was covered in the white stuff.
I would say that Gene's car spent its entire life in the snow belt.
Its actually a cleaner car than I thought it would be when he got it all striped down Gene. Doesn't look nearly as bad as I pictured it to be.
Thats what happened to the old man's but worse. That makes dam good sense, Just like on a pickup box with no tail pipe. :yesnod:
Coming along nicely .Looking good.The firewall cleaned right up (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/1980Genodaytonafirewall.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/Genodaytonafirewall.jpg)
.I noticed as mentioned before no tach hole .What are the other holes above the transmission tunnel.Was the wing untouched to have those strange damages from creative.Mine had small pot holes in the upright castings.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/100_2492.jpg)
Looking good, Gene :2thumbs:
Coming along nicely Gene. :yesnod:
BTW, did all Dayton's get the inner fender braces like yours have?
Thanks again everyone!
Lemme answer a few questions here...
UFO, the car did spend its entire driving life (March 1970 to spring 1977) in western Missouri, where they do use salt on the roads. That certainly could have contributed to the rear sheet metal decay. I don't get my R/T out much in bad road/weather conditions, and road dust collects worse on the tail panel area quicker than any place else on the car - just like you noted. Hard to say what the cause of that decklid lip rust was, apart from just knowing that the cars are prone to rusting in that area, not just mine.
Perry, your dad's car has a lot of similarities in where the rust was. If you saw some of the other "before" pictures of my car, you'd find they had a lot of the same rust issues to deal with. I don't believe Vance is going to have to cut quite as much of the quarterpanel away as what you guys have done, but the rust is still there to some degree in the same areas. My trunk & trunk extensions are being replaced too, as Vance said the remaining metal is just too thin to trust holding up for the rest of the car's life (which I hope is a long time). From the pics of your car's progress in the other thread, you're car's bodywork progress is a little ahead of mine. While I'm anxious to get my car done, I'm more anxious to see the repairs done "right." That's also the biggest reason I'm not tackling this work myself - since I'm anything but a bodyman.
Dave, you spied the firewall holes... There is indeed a story with those. When the fella I bought the car from went to pick it up in 1982, he found the car sitting engineless, but with the transmission & bellhousing still in the chassis. The front end of the transmission was held up by a rope, which was run through these two holes in the firewall. :flame: :smash: :slap: The gentleman who butchered up the firewall is the only one of the previous owners that I have not spoken to, so I cannot say whether he cut those holes in order to gain access to the bellhousing bolts (for engine removal), or whether he cut the holes for the purpose of supporting the transmission. Either way, it wasn't a good thing to hack holes in the firewall. They've already been patched back in, good as new, since that pic was taken.
Magnumcharger, you forgot to add one component to your list:
e) Remember to spend an equal amount on your spouse so that you don't end up sleeping in the car...
Oh, and I'd love to have an A12 someday too, but the musclecar market has passed me by. I'm blowing my hobby money for the next several years on Vance's restoration - plus, see note (e) above... :P
Chris, the Daytona fenders should all have the brace AFAIK. I remember watching a video documenting Chris Sauer's 16k mile Daytona getting restored, and they had to replace one of the fender braces since it was missing.
Quote from: 69_500 on February 27, 2007, 05:56:30 PM
Hey Gene, saw this thread after we got off the phone. Talked it over with the sick wife, she has been sick all week now, including all weekend, and the last 3 days of last week. Anyways, no plans for this weekend, so I'm good to go. Only thing I had thought of doing was going to the INdy Swap meet and selling some DVD's and toy cars. However I was too lazy to get a booth space yet, so nothing to keep me here for.
Have Camera's will travel. :)
Cool... I cleared it with the wife this morning to head to Michigan on Friday afternoon. Of course, that involves a movie and dinner at a white-tablecloth restaurant the following weekend, but
c'est la vie.
I'll give ya a call and set up all the particulars.
We'll have pics galore next week, for sure!!
Seeing how porous your quarterpanels appear to be, I'm wondering if you're planning on waiting for the release of the new full-sized reproductions to be released before contemplating the replacement of said rusted components?
QuoteBTW, did all Dayton's get the inner fender braces like yours have?
my 68 r/t has them . :shruggy:
Quote from: Magnumcharger on February 28, 2007, 04:11:25 PM
Seeing how porous your quarterpanels appear to be, I'm wondering if you're planning on waiting for the release of the new full-sized reproductions to be released before contemplating the replacement of said rusted components?
I saw John's post about those q-panels on the GD forum just today. Hardcore does a nice job of pitching them in the ad, and I certainly haven't seen them to know whether they will live up to their advance billing or not. I honestly don't want to hold off the body work betting on the come that the parts:
1. Fit like they should;
2. Have the proper radiuses/contours/bodylines;
3. Are widely available when they are introduced for real; or
4. Actually come out when they say they will.
For the sake of the hobby, I hope they are all of the above.
I actually purchased a set of clean used quarters along with the car when I bought it several years back. Before I took them up to Vance (didn't have room in the trailer on the first trip), I asked him if he needed them - but he said to wait until the chassis got back from the media blaster. That was the first question I asked him after it came back, was whether or not he needed these other quarters. He said that they could patch what was there much easier than it would be to change out the whole quarter. Don't forget on a Daytona you have the added headache of the rear window plug, the trunk lip modifications, and the welded-in wing washers to contend with as well.
Good question, considering the potential for some decent quarterpanels, but I'm forging ahead without 'em.
Alrighty then, I'll let my wife know that I"ll be heading to Michigan on Friday when I get home from work. And that I"ll be back on Sunday some time. I do intend on stopping on my way back at my buddies house and checking out his 500. That and drolling over his other HEMI cars. Can't pass up a free ride in a 6 pac Bird either, I know its not a Daytona but its still a wing car.
Thanks Hemi Geno I was thinking that as the position on the 2 cut outs.Accesed 2 bolts on the bell housing are in that position.
Looks good Geno. It won't be long know!
MAN,,, I must have read this post 15 or 20 times now and I still can't get enuff,,,,, :bow:
Perry, there's more pictures on the way...
Even though I'm not going up to Michigan this weekend (due to the nastiest winter weather Vance remembers having since he was a kid :'( ), he has sent me a CD with 93 updated pictures.
Oh, and one way or another I'll be up there next weekend to get my own ration of pics.
Thanks, Ed! How's that 500 of yours coming along? That paint job was looking fantastic the last look we got at it.
QuoteCan't pass up a free ride in a 6 pac Bird either, I know its not a Daytona but its still a wing car.
I would give anything up and including my dignity to go for a ride in a wing car :yesnod:
WEATHER,,,, Yaa,,, I think I'm going to kickit with the dog until this is done. This is only the first wave. ;D
After the blasting, did you notice any markings on the firewall (behind the pass. side tire). After scraping and washing the undercoating off mine i noticed a very large (approx. 12 inches high) A1 pitted into the metal surrounded by nice body color paint. It almost looks as though this was applied freehand with a 1.75" wide paint brush.
Okay well I'm making my plans now then to go up next weekend instead.
Quote from: FJMG on March 01, 2007, 05:32:40 PM
After the blasting, did you notice any markings on the firewall (behind the pass. side tire). After scraping and washing the undercoating off mine i noticed a very large (approx. 12 inches high) A1 pitted into the metal surrounded by nice body color paint. It almost looks as though this was applied freehand with a 1.75" wide paint brush.
I haven't seen the chassis myself, so I cannot say. There also haven't been any good pictures of that area sent to me yet, but I will definitely look.
That's an interesting observation you made though... I wonder if there was another "1" that went with that? "A11" would have made sense to plaster on it somewhere, especially if it was not part of a big batch of cars going down the line together. If you don't mind my asking, what is your car's VIN sequence (or perhaps just the the first 4 or 5 digits of the sequence #)? Any other details you could share with all us insatiable Wing Car fanatics??
Quote from: 69_500 on March 01, 2007, 05:47:24 PM
Okay well I'm making my plans now then to go up next weekend instead.
Good deal! Sorry about all the confusion, as I didn't know until last night after I got home that they were getting all that bad weather up north. It figures that the first weekend I could have gone up there would be messed up... :rotz:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 28, 2007, 01:19:18 PM
Chris, the Daytona fenders should all have the brace AFAIK. I remember watching a video documenting Chris Sauer's 16k mile Daytona getting restored, and they had to replace one of the fender braces since it was missing.
Gene, I know on John's car, he doesn't have the braces. His car was around the 10th or 12th built, and he has the Nascar hood and the tak welded delete plates. I know most did get the braces, but it would be interesting to find out if other early cars didn't have them.
Quote from: Chris G. on March 01, 2007, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on February 28, 2007, 01:19:18 PM
Chris, the Daytona fenders should all have the brace AFAIK. I remember watching a video documenting Chris Sauer's 16k mile Daytona getting restored, and they had to replace one of the fender braces since it was missing.
Gene, I know on John's car, he doesn't have the braces. His car was around the 10th or 12th built, and he has the Nascar hood and the tak welded delete plates. I know most did get the braces, but it would be interesting to find out if other early cars didn't have them.
Hmmm... I thought John's car was actually one of the last cars to be shipped? Am I thinking of the right John & the right Daytona?
Also, I'm drawing a blank on what you mean by Nascar hood and the delete plates... Sorry I'm a little slow, it's been a long day at work here...
Also Johns car has no dealer shipment .Other then dodge executive garage.When I first layed eyes on this car.At a Warnock dodge meet .And seen how entensively this 440 car was optioned.I had to see the buildsheet to believe it.
I'll try and send this pic.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 01, 2007, 07:56:09 PM
Also, I'm drawing a blank on what you mean by Nascar hood and the delete plates... Sorry I'm a little slow, it's been a long day at work here...
I'm not sure what "Nascar Hood" means myslef, but that's what he calls it. His turn signal delete plates are spot welded to the hood. I'm not sure if all Daytona's had them like that? John's is a 4/27 build day.
There was a big discussion about daytona hoods .My car and other original cars Ive looked at were smooth underside no crash ribs
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,8213.0.html
Quote from: FJMG on March 01, 2007, 08:01:50 PM
I'll try and send this pic.
Wow, thanks for that picture!!!
Do you think that the remnants of the second "1" are still showing on the inner fender? Sorta looks like it in a way, but it isn't quite in line with the other letters (but looks like it might be the same width/stroke). That was just a guess I made earlier, but to me it makes more sense to have A11 painted than A1...
Thanks again for posting that, FJMG!
Quote from: Chris G. on March 01, 2007, 08:06:20 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 01, 2007, 07:56:09 PM
Also, I'm drawing a blank on what you mean by Nascar hood and the delete plates... Sorry I'm a little slow, it's been a long day at work here...
I'm not sure what "Nascar Hood" means myslef, but that's what he calls it. His turn signal delete plates are spot welded to the hood. I'm not sure if all Daytona's had them like that? John's is a 4/27 build day.
I think the turn signal delete plates came both ways - spot welded and not. I'd like to confirm that with some other folks, and also ask which way the majority of cars were made, but I do recall that spot-welding was done on at least some. I would be really surprised if his hood had the inside supports cut away
a la Grand National practice of the day, so maybe he's just referring to the hood stiffening ribs that we always key in on.
That is the car I was thinking of, but it is actually one of the latter ones shipped from Creative. None of us know which order the cars were converted by Creative Industries, but the usual assumption is that they were converted in about the same order that they were shipped out. That would put John's car being one of the later conversions. Even if his car was built on or around 4/27, Creative's target date to start the conversions was in early June - so all but just a few of the Daytona chassis had been made at Hamtramck by the second week in June.
Another interesting tidbit about the cars with VIN's around John's - they are all VERY well optioned. From what I have seen they have a variety of colors, but the option packages are all eerily similar. I'm hoping that as my database of Daytona fender tag information grows, I'll be able to see more and more such patterns emerge.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 01, 2007, 08:28:52 PM
That is the car I was thinking of, but it is actually one of the latter ones shipped from Creative. That would put John's car being one of the later conversions. Even if his car was built on or around 4/27, Creative's target date to start the conversions was in early June - so all but just a few of the Daytona chassis had been made at Hamtramck by the second week in June.
.
Eh, what do I know :shruggy:. I'm a '70 guy :yesnod:. You can talk to him about it in Carlisle if you are going. :thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 01, 2007, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: FJMG on March 01, 2007, 08:01:50 PM
I'll try and send this pic.
Wow, thanks for that picture!!!
Do you think that the remnants of the second "1" are still showing on the inner fender? Sorta looks like it in a way, but it isn't quite in line with the other letters (but looks like it might be the same width/stroke). That was just a guess I made earlier, but to me it makes more sense to have A11 painted than A1...
Thanks again for posting that, FJMG!
Ok, I'm a day-late and dollar short here......... What's the picture of the inner fender area supposed to be showing? Also, you guys are mentioning the delete plates for the hood-mounted turn indicator openings being spot welded and some attached normally with rear support brackets?
Troy
Its no problem at all Gene. This gave me this weekend to try to sell some toys and DVD's at a local swap meet instead.
Well, I got a CD in the mail today from Vance with tons more pictures of the progress they're making on my Daytona. Rather than pic & choose which ones to post and which ones to leave out, I'll post 'em all. That way you guys [cough]ChargerFan[cough] can't complain... ;D
There are 65 of them, so at 4 per message it'll take me a bit to get them all up.
;)
:-\
;D
>:(
:o
???
::)
:P
:-[
:-X
:-*
:'(
^-^
:icon_smile_approve:
:icon_smile_big:
Last picture... *whew*
looking good .. rust repair always looks worse then it actually is ... once all the metal is cut out & the rest cleaned up , pretty straight forward from then on , just time consuming to make a factory appearing job . good / intresting pictures (hemigeno) thanks for sharing :thumbs:
The job is getting done right.coming along nicely
WoW,,,,, Got Wood :punkrocka: !!
Great to see "real" body work going on over there! The fact that you are keeping as much factory metal is possible is great. That guy has some real talent. Can't wait to see the finished product!
You have me even more excited about this weekend now Gene. I"m looking forward to seeing the car. Not that I ever turn down the chance to go oogle a daytona anyways. Looks like the work is progressing rather well.
Geno
Looks great! Vance is motivated. What is your scheduled rebuild date?
Ed
Hey HEMIGENO, I noticed that your car also has only one battery cooling hole, I was just inquiring about this on the "MY SMART OLD MAN" thread.
great pic Hemigeno - Thank you for the great detailed pics.
Thanks again, everyone!
Hey FJMG, I had read your request in that other thread, and I really did go through all the pictures I have taken of my Daytona over the years, looking for a shot of that area so I could say how my car was made. I also went through all the pictures I had just posted on Monday, looking for the same thing - and I couldn't find anything. After reading your comment this morning, I went through all the same pictures again, wondering what I had missed. Then I realized you must have seen the cooling hole area of the radiator yoke in this shot I had posted at the beginning of this thread... Good eyes! :thumbs:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/attachments/P1023a.JPG)
Quote from: XXHEMI on March 06, 2007, 07:52:44 PM
Geno
Looks great! Vance is motivated. What is your scheduled rebuild date?
Ed
Ed, there's not an official deadline, apart from the fact that I don't want to miss the 2009 Talladega Reunion... I think he'll make that :P
When I first started talking with him about doing my car, he had said that he could get it done in 8 months - and that was before he had even looked at the car in person. I honestly thought that there was no way he could turn it around that quickly, but they're rocking right along. I've told him repeatedly that I would rather that it took longer so they could do it correctly (yeah, I know - dumb thing to tell a typical autobody shop) than to rush it out under a deadline scenario. From what I can see, and again I'm not an expert bodyman, it looks like they're doing a fantastic job in a pretty compressed timeperiod. Best of both worlds.
I think part of what's helping their current rate of progress is the fact that my car came in at an opportune time for sheet metal work. There were tons of cars in Vance's sheet metal side of the shop when I was there in November, but a lot of them were very close to wrapping up. In some of the shots I posted in this thread, there were four cars in the same area getting sheet metal work done on them back in November. Now there's just my car. I don't know how backed up Vance's paint/trim area is (it's in a different part of the building), but I'll find out on Saturday when I'm there, and what is there will probably be gone by the time my car is ready for paint.
Glad you guys are enjoying the progress pics, and there'll be lots more as we go along.
Are you doing the work or someone else ? Nice job on the deck lid , mine is not as bad , but close
daytonalo Hemi Genos resto is being done by Vance Cummings .Who has turned out some well known mopar restorations
Quote from: daytonalo on March 07, 2007, 09:18:21 AM
Are you doing the work or someone else ? Nice job on the deck lid , mine is not as bad , but close
Larry, what Dave said is right - Vance is doing the restoration on my car. He's a top-notch body guy, but the biggest reason I'm using him is because of his knowledge of the Daytonas. Here's a quote from an earlier thread that partly explains why I'm having the resto done by someone else:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 27, 2006, 09:20:01 AM
Now I know there are several guys on here that cringe at the thought of farming out the complete restoration of a car. In my mind, a car like an original Daytona deserves a better restoration than what an amateur bodyman like myself could give it. I would rather for people to enjoy seeing the car, not be appalled at my lack of bodywork skills :o
And a link to the thread that was in:
Got rid of my Daytona Friday (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,21150.0.html)
Good gracious.......... You're going to have yours back before mine !!!!! :lol:
That sheetmetal work rocks Geno !!!!!! It's going to be so worth the wait !!!!! :2thumbs:
Troy
Thanks Troy!
Give Smitty a link to this thread, and see if that lights a fire under him a little more... :P
Grrreat shots, thanks for sharing them Geno! keep the updates coming.
ok , what is that bill going to be ?????????????????????????????????
Quote from: daytonalo on March 07, 2007, 06:28:48 PM
ok , what is that bill going to be ?????????????????????????????????
A lot less than it would be if I tried to do it myself, screwed it up, and had to take it all to someone like Vance and have it all redone correctly...
:rotz:
Why is that important anyway?
Quote from: daytonalo on March 07, 2007, 06:28:48 PM
ok , what is that bill going to be ?????????????????????????????????
A better question: what was the bill for the truck? :D It gets more attention any way...
Troy
Quote from: Troy on March 07, 2007, 07:41:50 PM
A better question: what was the bill for the truck? :D It gets more attention any way...
Oh geez, bring that up again, wouldya?? :P
The only thing I've seen really compete with the truck for attention was when I had the Daytona (in it's project-car condition) loaded on the back. I had people chasing me down thinking I was taking the Daytona to the MonsterMopar swap meet...
Once the Daytona is finished, even it would probably never get noticed sitting on the back of the truck. :rotz:
Heehee, who'd have thought an old farm truck would be the star of the show?
I wish the guys who were working on my Charger put in 1/10 of the effort that Vance and his crew are putting into yours. My car was in the shop for three months and they got a trunk pan an two metal patches partially welded in. Yeah, they were cheap but at that rate it would take approximately ten years to finish the car.
Troy
Quote from: Troy on March 07, 2007, 08:31:06 PM
Heehee, who'd have thought an old farm truck would be the star of the show?
I wish the guys who were working on my Charger put in 1/10 of the effort that Vance and his crew are putting into yours. My car was in the shop for three months and they got a trunk pan an two metal patches partially welded in. Yeah, they were cheap but at that rate it would take approximately ten years to finish the car.
Troy
it just goes to show that not all body resto shops are slow hacks!!
The old man is at $14500.00 + parts at this stage of the game.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 07, 2007, 07:59:09 PM
Quote from: Troy on March 07, 2007, 07:41:50 PM
A better question: what was the bill for the truck? :D It gets more attention any way...
I had people chasing me down thinking I was taking the Daytona to the MonsterMopar swap meet...
And one of those "people" would be me :wave:
Quote from: Daytona R/T SE on March 07, 2007, 11:18:56 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 07, 2007, 07:59:09 PM
I had people chasing me down thinking I was taking the Daytona to the MonsterMopar swap meet...
And one of those "people" would be me :wave:
Yeah Chris, I remember! By far you were the nicest of the people who asked about it. Some were downright rude, saying things like "Why'd you bring it if you're not going to sell it?" Ummmm, it's not IN the swap meet area, so why does it HAVE to be for sale? :flame:
Weren't you there when Rudy Ramon tried to buy it?
Thanks for painstakingly uploading all those pics for us to drool over! ;D
Man, that trunk lid is a work of art! He wasn't kidding when he said he's save it. :)
The left 1/4 was sure mincemeat, huh? Is he going to try & save as much good metal there too, versus replacing it? Great progress.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 08, 2007, 09:33:38 AM
Quote from: Daytona R/T SE on March 07, 2007, 11:18:56 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 07, 2007, 07:59:09 PM
I had people chasing me down thinking I was taking the Daytona to the MonsterMopar swap meet...
And one of those "people" would be me :wave:
Yeah Chris, I remember! By far you were the nicest of the people who asked about it. Some were downright rude, saying things like "Why'd you bring it if you're not going to sell it?" Ummmm, it's not IN the swap meet area, so why does it HAVE to be for sale? :flame:
Weren't you there when Rudy Ramon tried to buy it?
I don't know who Rudy Ramon is :shruggy: I just remember alot of people coming up to you and asking about it while I was taking a bazzillion pictures of it!
Thanks for putting up with us "Dreamers" ;)
For those who weren't there - here's a pic of what all the fuss was about:
Hey! I didn't know Gene's Daytona had the super rare 2x4 hood prop! Is it a reproduction or original equipment?
Troy
Quote from: Troy on March 08, 2007, 06:36:44 PM
Hey! I didn't know Gene's Daytona had the super rare 2x4 hood prop! Is it a reproduction or original equipment?
Troy
I'm painstakingly recreating that hood prop for my clone! :nana:
Quote from: Troy on March 08, 2007, 06:36:44 PM
Hey! I didn't know Gene's Daytona had the super rare 2x4 hood prop! Is it a reproduction or original equipment?
Troy
Good One............. :icon_smile_big:
That is a date coded 2X4 I will say.
Saw Gene's car this weekend. The process is coming along very nicely. I think I shot about 250 photo's of the car in its current state. And I can say this, I didn't realize that we were at Vance's shop for close to 8 1/2 hours. It only seemed like 2-3 hours to me. Then again who can resist talking wing cars? And they humored me a bit too they even talked about 500's every once in a while.
Gen I'm going to sit down and take a look at those tapes this week. I'll get back to you and Vance on what I see, and what I think I can do with them. I wish in the future that when a shop does something along those lines that I'd have the free time to tape it myself, and to use a higher quality camera and such. However if the interviews come through that would be very enjoyable as well.
Thanks for inviting me up for the day as well Gene. Good seeing you, and talking wing cars. I'm going to dig through some of my papers on Daytona's and see about those HEMI 4 speed Daytona's we were discussing last night as well. Maybe Dave will chime in, but I still think there are more than 11 that are known.
Yeah, date correct NOS 2x4's are hard to come by. Good thing for me I hoarded a bunch of them or I'd have been in trouble :icon_smile_big:
Danny, I'm glad you were able to make it up! Looking the car over was fun, but it was just as interesting talking wing/aero cars with you and Vance. I really hope you can make something of those video tapes. By now I'm sure you've seen that the tape quality isn't anything great after all these years (with it being a copied tape on top of that), but the content of the tapes makes it an awesome resource no matter what. Maybe once Vance gets my car done or close to being done, you could set up the camera and do a walk-through on some of the details that perhaps weren't as covered in the finished state on Chris Sauer's car.
So, did you put the tapes in right when you got home like you were thinking you'd be doing? I got home about 3:30am after dropping all the tires & books off at the office. It is about 498 miles door-to-door from my house to Vance's shop.
Oh, and I'm probably going back next week too, by way of Iowa. Talked with Dave H. and he's going to help me load up that rear clip so Vance can nab the frame rails and maybe a few other brackets & pieces off of it. The trunk floor might not be all I remembered it being, and Dave wants to keep the trunk floor extensions. But, the frame rails are worth the effort to get. I could see many pinholes of light showing through the ones still on my car, and the remaining metal was noticeably thinner than it should be at all the holes/openings.
It would be interesting to pool the information together about the 4-speed HemiDaytonas that all of us know about. Just off the top of our heads we were able to name quite a few of the (supposed) 11 total cars. There very well could be more.
I remember having a conversation with a fellow in Quebec about the car pictured on page 36 of mapleleaf cars in barns. He remembered the car being sold at Robert Bedard auto as a V2,C6X, blk wing hemi 4 spd. The car was aparently raced heavily after the first owner sold it. This fellow went to look at it in the condition that is shown in the above mentioned photograghs (when it was for sale around 1975??) decided not to buy it. Turns out a mustang guy bought it because it was unique, stored it for years until the garage burned in the mid-to-late 80's. Not sure if I got everything right as I am going by memory, Anybody else hear about this story??? or is the car on page 36 something different altogether???
Gene I did pop one of the tapes in when I got home that night. Watched about half of it. Then yesterday afternoon I went through the rest of the tapes. The qaulity isn't great, but is definately something I can work with. The audio quality is actually worse than the video quality. A lot of echo, and reverberations. Although I think I can run it through some filters, and make it presentable.
The more I watched those tapes, the more I wish that I had been doing video work back then, or that I was in contact with a restoration shop that is going through a very low mileage car now. That way I could document it, and put it on a better quality system. A lot of glare in a lot of the shots too, but he did do pretty good at staying on parts long enough to get part numbers clearly, and such.
I'm still waiting on someone to do the same thing with a 500. Then again I don't know that any unrestored 500's out there.
I made it home a lot faster than I made it up there, that is for sure. I stopped for about an hour at my buddies house, didn't go and see the 500, but just to chat. And I still made it home by 12:06, not by the midnight I told my wife I would be home by, but hey its just 6 minutes right?
Today I got down to business and reduced the file size on all the pictures I took on Saturday. Again, rather than pick-n-choose which pics are "worthy" of posting, I'll put 'em all up. There's not as many as last time, but still quite a few - that is until Danny sends me that CD with the 240+ pics he took :o
:icon_smile_shy:
:icon_smile_sleepy:
:icon_smile_tongue:
:icon_smile_wink:
:rotz:
:sick:
:yesnod:
:angel:
:laugh:
:devil:
:eyes:
Last batch for now
:popcrn:.......those were good / intresting to look at (study) :scope:.. making some good progress now , :yesnod: (hemigeno) that picture of the sail panel , why is there 4 holes drilled two for the charger emblem & 2 for a SE badge :confused: . looking at all the pictures you have taken ,makes me wish i had taken lot more when i restored mine :'(. keep the pictures comming :2thumbs: i love seeing stuff like this :popcrn:... :scope: ........:popcrn:
I dont think those holes in the sail panel are from a SE emblem.The distance between the stud and guide pin are 7/8".
Quote from: UFO on March 15, 2007, 06:18:02 PM
I dont think those holes in the sail panel are from a SE emblem.The distance between the stud and guide pin are 7/8".
yep you are correct (UFO) :yesnod: just had a look at a picture when i had my R/T SE in primer :-[ :-[ :icon_smile_big:
i wonder what they are for then :-\
Love the scoop and hood ornament.
Those holes in the sail panel puzzled me too - still don't know what to make of them. They sorta look like SE emblem spacing to me too, but I haven't ever seen the backside of an SE emblem or measured the pin spacing. I also don't have any "regular" Charger sail panel emblems around the office here to look at - do they have a guide pin? Two guide pins?
Anyone have any ideas why there'd be two holes if there's only one guidepin?
My car is anything but an SE - it's about as stripped down as you could get (for a Daytona), so if anything it was a Hamtramck screw-up with an extra hole or two being drilled.
Hope I'm not boring you guys to tears with all these pics...
The threads been looked at over 1600 times so I'd say we aren't too bored.
The Charger script only has two holes for the mounting pins.
I hope you get it on the road soon, looks good!
I had almost forgot about the Batman hood ornament on that other car. Thats a good look, I think you should ask Vance if you can get that mounted on the nose cone of your car instead when its finished.
I've went through the photo's that I took, and I'm putting them on a CD for ya Gene. I'm trying to sort through them and organize them so that they aren't so much of a random shot here and there, but shots of the same parts are in order.
I might not get that done on the CD but I'm trying to on my hard drive.
Hemigeno ,Heres the back of an SE emblem.7/8" center to center.
Is Vance`s shop doing the whole car? (As in interior,engine and reassembly)
Quote from: UFO on March 16, 2007, 05:56:10 PM
Hemigeno ,Heres the back of an SE emblem.7/8" center to center.
Is Vance`s shop doing the whole car? (As in interior,engine and reassembly)
UFO, thanks for the picture. I still dunno what's up with the "extra" holes on that sail panel of mine though. If nothing else, they were consistent, since the same pattern that is on one side was drilled out the same way on the opposite side. I'm open to any ideas about what that might be, but I'm thinking just a plain-old mistake.
Vance is doing the whole car, even though I'd love to be involved in some things. Vance is such a pro at all the finer details (especially on the Daytonas), that I know I would be missing out on a whole lot of his experience if I only let him do part of the car. I thought about doing at least some of the engine work myself, and I initially started to do that. However, it was really going to compound the logistical problems if I did that. Like most other things, I found out pretty quickly that Vance knows engines too - plus, I think he feels a little more comfortable putting everything together with him having first-hand knowledge of how the motor has been assembled. He has a 340 6-pack T/A in his shop now that has some slightly disturbing engine noises. That car's owner wanted to do his own engine work, and to really "fix" the probem now would meaning undoing countless hours of detailing work on the engine. Not good.
Maybe tomorrow I can post some more pictures from my latest visit this past Saturday. I went back up, this time to take a rear clip to Vance so that we could see if we could use the rear framerails and crossmembers on the Daytona. Dave H., the guy that I bought the Daytona from, was able to go up with me - which was just pretty cool for him to see the car he owned for 20+ years. It's a good thing that this clip had decent frame rails in it after all, since when we pulled up to Vance's shop Dave looks over and says "there's the frame from the Daytona sitting on that pile of scrap."
:o
I'm finally getting around to posting another batch of pics, from 3/17.
The first two are pictures of the rear clip that we took the framerails out of. It was a B3 exterior, B7 interior, single exhaust car (don't know what engine), but the unique thing is that it had a pearl white V-top on it rather than a pure white top. The framerails from this car were absolutely pristine. Vance said that there was no pitting even on the inside of the rails when they took it apart.
The last two pictures are of the rear pan from my car after it had its original framerails removed. Looks pretty bare!
A couple of shots showing the rear valance and corner, and two shots of the trunk extensions.
Two more shots of the missing framerails, and a couple more shots of some floor pan patches that were necessary
Nice work ! Is your body guy going to dig out the lead at the a-pillar to cowl area ? From my exp it may look fine but there is rust under this area that will eventually push up the lead , I have seen time and time again . I usually dig out lead and weld it solid and use long hair . Just my 2 cents . Larry
A couple of pictures of the K-frame, including the assembly date 1589 1, which decodes as the 158th day of '69, first shift. That was a Saturday (June 7th), so I guess the stamping plant was running Overtime then to try and keep up with the orders??
The last two are a couple of fender detail shots.
Quote from: daytonalo on March 26, 2007, 02:03:53 PM
Nice work ! Is your body guy going to dig out the lead at the a-pillar to cowl area ? From my exp it may look fine but there is rust under this area that will eventually push up the lead , I have seen time and time again . I usually dig out lead and weld it solid and use long hair . Just my 2 cents . Larry
Larry, I wouldn't argue with your experience, and I do not know what Vance and his guys are going to do on that topic. I've wondered about the rear plug and quarterpanel joint myself - hadn't thought too much about the cowl/A-pillar joint, but it makes sense. At first, I was honestly hoping the whole car would be dipped rather than blasted, which would have alleviated situations just as you're describing. The problem with that is it's too hard to neutralize ALL of the acid/rust remover - and that would probably have a worse impact than anything else.
They are taking some seams apart in the rear floor pan that look pretty decent, but you can see some slight indications that rust is just beginning to form at the seam. They're doing a lot of things right, but I can't say they're doing it all perfectly. I'm no expert, but I guess the only way to really fix everything would be to separate every panel, remove the rust, and put it back together? That's probably not a practical solution, but again - I'm no expert.
I'll ask Vance next chance I get.
Holy crap, that B3 back end looks almost perfect! Even the 1/4's look good from here...even to the point of being an easy resto, maybe. :-[
At least it's good stuff is going to a very worthy cause. :)
Do you wanna sell that tail panel if it doesn't get used? :icon_smile_big:
Those guy's look first class !!!!!!! I wish I had a dollar for every b -body that has a crack in this area ! The rust under the lead that get in at the w/s gaskit is the problem .
Fender scoops, plus some close-ups of the part numbers (3412670 & 671)
Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on March 26, 2007, 02:49:51 PM
Holy crap, that B3 back end looks almost perfect! Even the 1/4's look good from here...even to the point of being an easy resto, maybe. :-[
At least it's good stuff is going to a very worthy cause. :)
Do you wanna sell that tail panel if it doesn't get used? :icon_smile_big:
Grant, you are exactly right, there's a lot of useable sheet metal on that clip. The trunk was toast, and there was a little rust around the sail panel/back glass area, but it wasn't too bad overall. I'd be in trouble if I started selling parts off of it though... When I bought this Daytona, my agreement with Dave H. (who owned the Daytona and this clip both) was that I would use the quarters off of that clip for the Daytona. When Vance decided to just patch in the Daytona's quarters, that meant I didn't need the ones off the clip. As it turns out, I needed the framerails instead - so I "swapped" getting the quarterpanels from that clip for its framerails. The rest of it belongs to Dave H., and I'd be in deep dutch if I tried to help ya out.
Larry, the windshield channel was in pretty good shape, but I'm sure that looks could be deceiving. Makes perfect sense what you're saying about the gasket area being the ultimate source of the problem.
The first pic is a shot of the patch panel mocked into place. They still have a ton of work to do on this side, but they aren't patching nearly that much of the quarter. Vance's crew needed to set this in place so they could locate the trunk extension panel.
The last two are shots of the old frame rails after they had been pulled off of the junkpile. This past week, Vance's guys welded the old framerail back under that B3 rear clip and put the old springs under it also. That will allow it to be transported back to Iowa without damaging those nice quarterpanels in the process. Once Dave H. gets the clip back, he said he's going to cut the spot welds out of the framerails, and hang the Daytona's old frame up on the garage wall as artwork... That'd be pretty cool - wish I would have thought of it first!
I paged back and noticed they had a problem at the d/s joint at a-pillar , pass what I said onto your resto guy ! Just trying to help and avoid a poss headache in the future .
Gene, I am not being critical, this is a question you should ask - and that is "How is he going to make sure the new rails are welded back in at the correct length width and height?" He has a Chief rack, and hopefully he has the measuring equipment to go with it.
One thing that they do up at John Balow's MCR shop in Wisconsin, is they have a Blackhawk dedicated bench, which is essentially a surface plate like a race car shop would use. They actually have built fixtures to the factory control points. Your four torque box areas fit on the fixtures, as well as the front and rear rails - just like the factory did. That really is the ultimate setup when you are working on the same kinds of cars. It also can be done by hand with a tram guage, or better yet, a three dimensional measuring system. There is no right or wrong way to do it, just easier and faster. These cars are not super tight from a dimensional standpoint, but whatever method, I'd just want to be sure it's correct!
Doug,
I spent quite a bit of time going over this with Vance when I dropped that clip off, since that's certainly a big issue. Last thing either of us wanted was to have the car crabwalking down the highway.
He said he would be working elbow-to-elbow with his guys on that portion of the metalwork, even though he said his son has been working around and with frame straightening equipment for 17 years. His son could probably have handled it all by himself, but Vance wanted to make extra sure that things were done as well as they possibly could be. One very nice thing about pulling the complete rear subframe out of that clip is that all the crossmembers, etc. retain their factory welds from the initial installation, which should really help keep things squared up. There are also two bolts near the front of the framerails that both locate and draw up the whole frame section to the rear pan. They could then get everything located, positioned, and welded up - plus they can double-check things using the factory locating dimensions as they went. Vance said that replacing the whole rear subframe was not only easier, but would give a better end result than if we were replacing just the framerails. I can definitely believe that.
I talked with Vance last Friday, and he said they had worked on getting that replacement taken care of for nearly 3 days, but that it was in there "right". Apart from verifying all the proper dimensions, etc., the proof will be when it can be checked for a 4-wheel alignment, which is a ways down the road.
Point very well taken though...
Quote from: hemigeno on March 26, 2007, 03:11:34 PM
Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on March 26, 2007, 02:49:51 PM
Holy crap, that B3 back end looks almost perfect! Even the 1/4's look good from here...even to the point of being an easy resto, maybe. :-[
At least it's good stuff is going to a very worthy cause. :)
Do you wanna sell that tail panel if it doesn't get used? :icon_smile_big:
Grant, you are exactly right, there's a lot of useable sheet metal on that clip. The trunk was toast, and there was a little rust around the sail panel/back glass area, but it wasn't too bad overall. I'd be in trouble if I started selling parts off of it though... When I bought this Daytona, my agreement with Dave H. (who owned the Daytona and this clip both) was that I would use the quarters off of that clip for the Daytona. When Vance decided to just patch in the Daytona's quarters, that meant I didn't need the ones off the clip. As it turns out, I needed the framerails instead - so I "swapped" getting the quarterpanels from that clip for its framerails. The rest of it belongs to Dave H., and I'd be in deep dutch if I tried to help ya out.
Not a problem, thanks anyway, Gene. :)
Looks like they have done quite a bit of work since I went up there. I made you a CD of the photo's Gene. I took out all of the duplicates, and the ones where the codes weren't readable. So your down to 248 photo's of your car. You can blow them up to 20x30 if you wish and see all the details you want.
I'll try to get it mailed off to you before this weekend, but I won't make a promise as I'm trying to get evrything together to go to Vegas.
WooHoo!!!
Beggars can't be choosers, so don't worry about any deadlines getting it mailed out to me. Hopefully you still have my mailing addy from the DVD's I got from you a while back. If not, let me know.
Thanks again! Hmmm... 248 pics... Did you happen to get one of the stamping on the right front corner of the hood? I didn't even know the hoods were stamped here, but sure as shootin', you can make out a faint '69 stamping. One more infernal date code I didn't know existed until everything was disassembled and stripped.
Some nice work going on there hemigeno.Can`t wait to see the paint start flying. .From my experience in restoring old and not so old cars ( 22 years and still learning ) I have found that a car with rust problems you can sandblast everything you see on the outside and cut out the bad spots and weld in new metal and all is well for the short term.... but there is still rust on the back side of the panels and in the pinch welds where you cannot see and rust never sleeps.The one good thing about dipping is that if the metal is thin anywhere you will see the holes now instead of later.Not saying that if a car is not dipped it is not going to last.It all depends on the amount of rust and where it is located.On the cars we have done that do not get dipped we make it a point to spray rust check in every seam and in every nook and cranny before they leave the shop.Oil is the only thing that keeps rust at bay....Terry
Oil is a body shops worst enemy
Add silicone to that. That's probably worse than oil as it atomizes and floats places where you never thought it would go.
I think media blasting is still the best way to go. It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away. I had a problem with my Superbird nose after being dipped. I also did a NOS Superbird hood years ago that had flash rust all over it, and had it ecoated. That came out nice.
As far as patching goes and thin metal, you can still cut out to good steel, weld the patch, but the key is to get it sealed up. You're banking on a perfect weld, and getting it sealed up and corrosion protected on the back side. Any time you are patching, there are more opportunities for problems down the road. Obviously these guys are competent in their abilities.
Gene, was the decision to repair the quarters versus replace panels based on maintaining more integrity of the unibody while the rear frame rail work was done, or other reasoning? Did they feel they could give you as good a repair versus the cost and labor of putting quarters on it?
Nice job.
Quote from: DougSchellinger on March 27, 2007, 11:34:30 AM
I think media blasting is still the best way to go. It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away.
Pretty much what Vance had said about dipping also.
I'm no expert when it comes to these sorts of things - but on the surface it seems like if they dip it in acid/chemical, couldn't they dip it in neutralizer too? Even if it took several progressively milder tanks to get to the point that there was no more corrosive material left (acid or base), that would seem to eliminate the objections that I've heard to the process. Some of the tech articles I've read show them just hosing off the stripped metal, and I can see where that wouldn't do near as good a job of rinsing out everywhere the acid/chemicals had gotten to. Vance said he might dip the cars he works on if they could ever find a better way to eliminate seeping.
Quote from: DougSchellinger on March 27, 2007, 11:34:30 AM
Gene, was the decision to repair the quarters versus replace panels based on maintaining more integrity of the unibody while the rear frame rail work was done, or other reasoning? Did they feel they could give you as good a repair versus the cost and labor of putting quarters on it?
We didn't do a pro/con analysis or anything. When I dropped the car off in November, I told Vance up front that I had access to good quarterpanels (thinking of the ones on that B3 rear clip). He said to hold off on bringing them up, as he wanted to see what was there when they got the car back from the media blaster. When I did hear back from him, he said that there was enough good metal left - especially on the right side - that it didn't make sense to yank the quarters off. My guess is that the left side was borderline, but since they could easily save the right side it probably made sense to keep the left side too and just patch it back. Working around the rear window plug would HAVE to complicate things considerably on a quarterpanel replacement for a 500/Daytona.
Either way, it was Vance's call to make. I'm really glad it worked out like it did, since I would have hated to yank just one quarter off of that rear clip. That would have left Dave H. with only one useable quarterpanel for his other projects.
Under the circumstances, I would actually prefer to keep &patch as many original body panels as possible. Some things were just too far gone to save, but that's alright too. If the car had been rust free, chances are I would never have had the opportunity to purchase it - since Dave H. would have really preferred to keep this 4-speed car over his F6 Auto Daytona. The 4-speed car he decided to sell is (by far) a tougher restoration project, which is why it went and the other stayed. I'm just glad he was willing to sell me the car in the first place!
Quote from: Magnumcharger on March 27, 2007, 12:52:14 PM
Great minds think alike......
Batman on my Ram, since 2003.
Nice touch! :thumbs: I can't take credit for the idea though - the pic I posted was from a car in Vance's shop, but I thought it was pretty cool.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 27, 2007, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: DougSchellinger on March 27, 2007, 11:34:30 AM
I think media blasting is still the best way to go. It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away.
Pretty much what Vance had said about dipping also.
I'm no expert when it comes to these sorts of things - but on the surface it seems like if they dip it in acid/chemical, couldn't they dip it in neutralizer too? Even if it took several progressively milder tanks to get to the point that there was no more corrosive material left (acid or base), that would seem to eliminate the objections that I've heard to the process. Some of the tech articles I've read show them just hosing off the stripped metal, and I can see where that wouldn't do near as good a job of rinsing out everywhere the acid/chemicals had gotten to. Vance said he might dip the cars he works on if they could ever find a better way to eliminate seeping.
I was always under the impression that they could "bake" the cars after the acid dip which would evaporate any of the chemicals left behind. Also, an e-coat afterwards would be the only way I would ever consider it. My problem is finding anyone close who can/will do those steps. The local dipper just dunks it and hands it back. The local soda blasting place doesn't neutralize or prime the car afterwards either. The local plastic media blaster primes the car/parts immediately. Guess which one I'd rather use?
Troy
walnut shells ???????????????????????
I think part of the problem with dippers is what Troy alluded to - some just want to dunk, rinse & return. That probably gives other shops that may have a much better handle on what needs to be done a bad rap. Using an oven sounds like it would work, although there couldn't be any rubber seals/bushings, etc. left on the car. I can just imagine how much the EPA would like the bake oven's return air emissions with all that vaporized acid too :-\ Course they probably aren't too fond of the whole process in the first place.
Quote from: daytonalo on March 27, 2007, 06:26:16 PM
walnut shells ???????????????????????
Walnut shells leave oil all over the car. ;)
Gene, you can't dip cars at all in places like California - of course I'm surprised you're still allowed to use paint, bleach or deodorant there. Hair gel is ok though. :P
Troy
And silicone.
Gene I looked through all the photo's, and no I didn't get a shot of those codes on the hood. As a matter of fact I didn't get but 3 or 4 shots of the hood at all. As it was off in the corner, and a little difficult to get at the day I was there.
Did you have the car dipped-or just Media blasted ?
Just media blasted, due to the preferences of the restoration shop I'm using.
OK, so I got a few more answers on the approach they have and will take on putting the car back together and rust remediation steps.
Vance said that the "new" frame did fit perfectly, and they even mounted the rear bumper before finally welding things in to make sure that even it fits right. They had it on the frame rack, with all the measuring equipment (hanging gauges?) to make sure that everything is arrow straight. He said that in all honestly, the car's frame is probably in there straighter than it was from the factory.
They had a tough time getting one of the repro rear valance corners to fit properly, so they ended up rebuilding one of my old corners and reusing it rather than using both repro corners. I've heard for years that those repro corners were really difficult to get fitted, and that apparently hasn't changed.
I asked about how they handled rust in the areas that are leaded up and prone to rust, such as the seam near the windshield channel. He said that they usually end up melting out all the lead and welding up that area since they are terribly prone to crack there. They also scrutinize all the leaded seams, for evidence of ANY lumps or bubbling which would indicate a developing rust problem. If they can, they leave as many of the factory leaded seams alone (including the window plug), but if it needs to be addressed, they dig it out and fix it right. Once they get all the welding work done, they will end up sand/media blasting the whole car again to get rid of all the moisture/oils from the metal before primering everything. That is maybe a week or two away, since there are a whole lot of welds that need to be ground and finished to eliminate the visible evidence of the patchwork.
As it stands now, I plan on being back in Vance's shop on the 14th of this month. Anyone who wants to drop by is more than welcome to do so. Vance is sending me a couple of picture CD's, so I'll have an update maybe later this week.
Hi Geno, it sounds like she's moving along pretty good. I'm sure each step is more and more exciting for you. I'll have to check my schedule for the 14th and see if there is any way I can make it out there. Thanks again for your help in getting ahold of Danny. Talk to you later, take it easy.
Steve
Steve, it'd be great if you can make it on the 14th. Unless things change, I'll be there about 8-8:30am and stay until around lunchtime. Of course, I've had intentions before of heading out after only a few hours, and ended up spending 8+ hours there :brickwall:
I do have to make it to Waterloo, IA that night (6+ hour drive), so I'll be leaving before dark if nothing else.
Geno
Ah return trip up on April 14th? Darn it, can't make that one, I'll be in Bakersfield California.
Well, I have another installment of progress pictures of my car from this past Saturday. I didn't get to spend too much time actually talking with Vance, but that's another story. It's coming along, but this is probably one of the slower periods for visible progress. They are pretty much just working on the undercarriage to fill in and smooth out all the pitted metal. Lots of tedious detail work, but what they have completed is really smoothed out.
More pics of the trunk area
Some closeups of the rear window channel and the serrated bracket that holds the headliner material. Both the right and left side serrated brackets have broken tabs, for whatever reason. They'll spot weld the brackets into place before long.
Some pictures of the floor pan area - sorta weird to be looking at it from that perspective.
Some shots of all the spotwelds that were made when the frame rails were installed, and a few shots of the firewall
More firewall, framerail and clutch bracketry closeups
An inner fender shot and a couple showing the backside of the radiator yoke
Two shots of the underneath side of a Daytona-only piece that was spot-welded to the radiator yoke. This piece was pretty pitted up on my car because it was unfinished on both the top and bottom sides. Normally this piece was painted black on the top, but my car's piece was totally unfinished on both sides. I'm sure I'll hear about this "discrepancy" sometime down the road, but that's the way the car was. The last two shots are some front framerail shots. Apart from being a little pitted up, the front framerails are really solid.
Underbody shots showing where they are working on finishing out the pitted metal.
More of the same...
More underbody shots
Still more
I took lots of pictures of the underbody since it's not often you can see the underneath side this easy...
Yep, still more of the same - sorry!
Some closeups of the trunk seam that they are still working on a little. When it's done you won't be able to see the seam from the repro trunk floor installation.
More shots of the welding work on the trunk floor seams
Some pictures of the rear valance/corners
Some detail shots of the trunk extensions. The first one of each perspective is from an NOS extension I was able to find/buy, and the other is a reproduction piece. There are slight differences in the two, and I'm going to see if they can do a little more work to replicate the NOS stamping's contours on the repro piece. Details, details...
Some lower control arm shots showing the original date codes. Dave H. (the former owner of my car) was able to provide me with some non-pitted control arms dated within 4 days of these original pieces - that was a very cool find! The last two shots are of the inner window channel showing the extra screw holes from the A pillar wind deflector screws.
*whew* That's it for now...
Geno,,
Man, she's lookin' awesome !!!
:2thumbs:
Troy
I was going to ask about that trunk seam but you answered my question.......they are doing some top notch work Geno......that bottom is going to be as smooth as the top!
These are all very nice and everything but when are we gonna see some paint!!!!!!!! :icon_smile_big: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: J/K :notworthy:
Thanks guys, it is slowly making progress.
Quote from: PocketThunder on April 17, 2007, 08:40:48 AM
These are all very nice and everything but when are we gonna see some paint!!!!!!!!
Not soon enough for either of us, believe me... It might be a while before I can make it back up, so maybe they'll have it all in primer and ready for the paint booth with the next batch of pictures. Strange how I can let the car sit for years without worrying too much about it, but once the resto gets going I get anxious for it to be done.
Speaking of wanting to see paint on some fresh sheet metal there, PT... :boxing_smiley: :D :stirthepot:
So Gene when is the next planned trip to Michigan? I'm still hoping to hear back from Vance about the possibility of getting together with the other gentleman, who has a lot of info. Would love to set up an interview with him.
Danny, I don't know exactly when I might be going back up. Maybe Memorial Day weekend? The whole month of May is really clogged up with weekend activities, so I am scrounging for enough free time to head north.
I'll send you a PM on the possibility of interviewing that other gentleman...
Looks like a 40-50 k resto !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: daytonalo on April 18, 2007, 05:49:03 PM
Looks like a 40-50 k resto !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Going this route was slightly cheaper than the cost of renting a big enough time machine to zip back to 1969 and take this car off the showroom floor. What can I say, I'm a tightwad... :P
Not a tightwad, or at least I don't label you as one. Frugal is the word that my wife prefers to be called, and she is definately a tightwad.
:)
Quote from: 69_500 on April 19, 2007, 04:00:35 PM
Frugal is the word that my wife prefers to be called, and she is definately a tightwad.
I wish my wife had that problem. >:(
I think it has something to do with her job, being an accountant. She always wants to know exactly where every single penny goes. If I go to a car show with $150 in cash, and come back 2 days later I had better have a receipt for everything I spent money on. Even if that means asking the people at the concession stand to give me a receipt for the $4 coke. Which is annoying sometimes, but then again we never have any problems with knowing exactly how much money we have.
Quote from: hemigeno on April 17, 2007, 09:36:50 AM
Thanks guys, it is slowly making progress.
Quote from: PocketThunder on April 17, 2007, 08:40:48 AM
These are all very nice and everything but when are we gonna see some paint!!!!!!!!
Not soon enough for either of us, believe me... It might be a while before I can make it back up, so maybe they'll have it all in primer and ready for the paint booth with the next batch of pictures. Strange how I can let the car sit for years without worrying too much about it, but once the resto gets going I get anxious for it to be done.
Speaking of wanting to see paint on some fresh sheet metal there, PT... :boxing_smiley: :D :stirthepot:
Funny you should mention that... Actually I've been busy adding a second floor onto my house this past year and once i close my permits in June i plan on starting to get the C500 ready for the media blaster. I got the car from Hans in Dec of 2003 and ofcourse when i got the car i was planning on driving it within a year or two, but one move, 2 children, and one house addition later, here we are.. :icon_smile_big: Everything has its priority, and the Chargers are at the back of the line. :icon_smile_blackeye:
Speaking of children, how are the little ones doing now PT? I think your first child is around the age of my son, who is 3. Kids are the greatest.
Gene I'll get back with you after this weekend about the PM you sent me.
Looks good and like the body work i almost done. Where in NJ was it? There was a license plate from the 70's on it on the first page.
bordin, I could see where you'd get that from the picture that was posted.
Actually, the Daytona on page 1 with the NJ plate is Dave B.'s old car (DC.com member "nascarxx29"). I think he was trying to show the pock marks that were in his wing, although they were a little hard to see from that vantage point. My car was in/around the St. Joseph MO / Kansas City area until 1982, when it went north to Iowa. To my knowledge, the farthest east it's been is where it is at in Michgan.
Here's two pictures of mine from 1980 when it was briefly for sale in KC (pictures courtesy of Doug Schellinger & DSAC):
Geno...
I love the holes he made for the plugs........... Can you take some more close up of the trunk pan?
Cheers,
Troy
I just love a great restoration. . . . . :popcrn:
. . . . can hardly wait to see it finished as well as you and everybody I'm sure Gene! :drive:
2fast
that is some very nice metal work going on right there that thing is going to be very very nice when they get it done one thing that really caught my eye was that the butt welded the trunk floor very few of us take the time to do that and its the only way to make it indetectable!! way cool!!!
Quote from: hemi68charger on April 20, 2007, 07:41:42 PM
Geno...
I love the holes he made for the plugs........... Can you take some more close up of the trunk pan?
Cheers,
Troy
Troy,
They did do a decent job on the trunk extension plug holes - that's an odd shaped hole to cut and I'm kinda curious how they did that. Also, I checked the rest of my pictures from that trip and found no more of the trunk seam, if that was what you were looking for. I did find a few more of the trunk floor itself, which are below.
2fast, I'm getting a little antsy and the car has only been gone 5 months... I can only imagine how anxious I'll be here in another 4-5 months, especially when there's a nice glossy coat of R4 red to drool on. There's no reason to expect that it'll be done before any of the major shows this year, but that's alright. My goal all along has been just to get the car done before Talladega in September of 2009. I certainly hope we can clear that hurdle! Another lesson in patience for me - someone must be trying to teach me that I guess.
1hot68, the metalworking skills these guys have are WAY better than anything I could do - which is why they're working on the car in the first place. I know there are lots of places that can do this type of work to that same level, but I agree they're doing a great job so far. Again, I just don't have the patience it takes to do all that welding and finishing work needed to eliminate the evidence of the patches. I'd be ready for a straight jacket by now, and they're nowhere close to being done.
Here are a few more trunk pan pics from the upper side, and I have two more shots of the bottom side I'll post in a sec:
Two more trunk pan shots from the underneath side, showing the shackle mounting frame/stubs:
That car is going to be gorgeous.
Quote from: 69_500 on April 20, 2007, 03:12:55 PM
Speaking of children, how are the little ones doing now PT? I think your first child is around the age of my son, who is 3. Kids are the greatest.
Nick is 2-1/2 and finally started potty training :boogie:, and he's starting to talk back to his Mom :slap: Mary is 6 months now and she is going to pick up everything her older brother does i'm afraid.. :o They are a blast. I dont get enough time with them but isnt that the case for everybody. My C500 has taken a back seat to spending time with them, but thats ok, the car will always be there, the kids wont. :yesnod: I thought we were done with 2 but i'm getting the full court press for #3 so it looks like i'll be changing diapers for a couple more years...
thread hijack over and out. :icon_smile_big:
Looks like the car is coming along great there Gene. A lot of progress since I saw it last.
Off topic again, my wife is pressing me for child #2, then again we have had 2 miscarriages since Dakotat was born 3 1/2 years ago too.
Quote from: Fitz73Chrgr on April 23, 2007, 03:24:33 PM
That car is going to be gorgeous.
I agree, I would be afraid to drive it......
Hey Gene, its really coming along great. She's going to be a Beut when done, I'm sure you are getting more and more excited each time you get pictures.
Do you by chance have any pics of the outer shell of the deck-lid, I wanted to see if the indentations from the spot-welds were as evident on the forward side as on other cars like mine. I saw a C500 awhile back that the paint had pretty much baked off the deck-lid from Western outdoor storage and they were very evident as well.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
WINGR
Gene,
looks good! You are gonna get a really nice car!
Best regards,
Marcel
the Netherlands
No updates for awhile...we need our picture "fix" !!!!!!
Help us out Geno!
Sorry for the lag in updates - and (a belated) thanks for the compliments!
I just got back from Michigan this weekend, and I do have some pictures I took to upload - plus a CD that Vance gave me of progress pictures they have taken since last time. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of difference visible even though they've slaved away on that undercarriage a LOT. It's getting to be as smooth as a baby's bottom side, but they haven't really touched the bodypanels just yet.
Give me a day or two to resize & post the pics... ;D
Quote from: hemigeno on May 28, 2007, 08:53:04 AM
Sorry for the lag in updates - and (a belated) thanks for the compliments!
I just got back from Michigan this weekend, and I do have some pictures I took to upload - plus a CD that Vance gave me of progress pictures they have taken since last time. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of difference visible even though they've slaved away on that undercarriage a LOT. It's getting to be as smooth as a baby's bottom side, but they haven't really touched the bodypanels just yet.
Give me a day or two to resize & post the pics... ;D
Ok its been two days :shruggy: :scope:
Quote from: PocketThunder on May 30, 2007, 01:00:56 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on May 28, 2007, 08:53:04 AM
Give me a day or two to resize & post the pics... ;D
Ok its been two days :shruggy: :scope:
Nag, nag, nag... :P
I finally uploaded them to my PC last night, but I haven't resized them just yet. MAYBE this afternoon, but I promise I won't send the pictures to London Drug.
OK, here are the next round of pictures, taken on 5/25 at Vance's. To be honest, there's not a whole lot of visible difference between this set and the last set - until you touch the finished product. Smoooooth is all I can say. They have already sealed and primered the underside twice, and filled/sanded everything smooth again. They have one more round of primer/fill/sanding to go before the final coat of primer goes on and they move onto the body panels. That work will go a bunch faster than this has gone, simply because there aren't nearly as many obstacles. There are very few flat places larger than a saucer plate on the undercarriage, so the body panels will be (comparatively) a cakewalk... At least I'm hoping so, otherwise there'll be snow on the ground again before it gets painted :-\
The first two pictures are just overall shots. Lots more filler showing this time around.
The last two are pictures of the trunk extension panels, where you can see the way they have been trying to replicate the shape/contours of the NOS extension (bottom picture) on the reproduction piece (top picture). They are still working on this, but it looks a whole lot better than it did earlier. They're even trying to make the width/length/height of the ribbing the same on the reproduction panel, which is quite a chore.
Some pictures of the trunk, showing the seam from the 2-piece replacement trunk floor.
Notice something missing in these shots? (Hint: see the reply above this one)
The first shot shows a change that was made since the last batch of photos. One of our eagle-eyed DC.com members (Ray / 69_charger_man) pointed out to me that the crossmember we salvaged along with the frame rails from that rear clip had a round filler tube hole. Even though Chargers did not utilize that filler tube hole, they used the same crossmember as the Bee/Runner did (which DID use the filler tube hole). Sometime around February of 1969 the stamping plant changed the shape of the filler tube hole from a round shape to an oval shape. The Daytona's original crossmember had the oval shaped hole, whereas the piece we scavenged off of that rear clip was (you guessed it) the round shape. This little detail isn't super noticeable, but it is definitely visible if you know what to look for. I had even read a thread on the Moparts A12 forum about this very subject the very same month that I had taken that rear clip up to Vance. In other words, I should have noticed that detail, but I didn't - and it escaped Vance's notice too. Ray pointed it out to me, and I appreciate his doing so, since catching that "mistake" while it's in the sheet metal stage is much better than noticing it after the paint is on.
Anyway, the second picture shows the cuts that they had to make in the (formerly NOS) rear lower valance in order to get at that crossmember to elongate the hole - effectively converting it to the oval style from the round style. There just wasn't an easy way to get to it without making those cuts. Sad but true.
BTW, thanks again, Ray! :wave:
Here are some additional body pan shots. Lots of nooks, crannies and bumps to work around.
On each bracket and panel edge that shows, they have even taken the time to fill / sand in the pitting on the metal's EDGE.
I asked the guys in the shop what would cause the extent of the pitting that they saw on a car like mine - driving it, or storing it. They all chimed in at the same time and said "Storing it." My car was stored for 3-4 years outside, and at least a few years inside on a dirt floor. Even being inside on a dirt floor will allow a large amount of pitting to develop in the metal since moisture can still be a big problem with the dirt. I don't know if the car was stored with a tarpaulin over it or not, but that's another BIG no-no since it traps moisture underneath making an already bad situation that much worse.
Anyway, the effort is being made to fill in every pitted area that can be reached (and almost every area that can be seen or felt).
The first two shots are showing some of the metal work that they've done on the inside of the driver's side quarterpanel. This is a patched area that ended up being a little larger than originally thought. You can see where the marker lens hole has been worked over, and the second shot shows the seam between the patch and the original panel. By the time they are done massaging this area, you won't see that seam - all evidence of the patch will have been removed.
The last two shots show more of the metal work that they've done inside the trunk compartment. They haven't really started on the finishing work in this area yet, so it still looks a little rough compared to what it will by the time they're done.
More pictures from inside the trunk area at various angles that are pretty hard to see on a finished car (without being a contortionist)
One more shot from inside the trunk area.
The second picture is of the window channel area that is concealed by the headliner on a Daytona/500. This is the area we were talking about on MsMopar's thread about whether or not the factory used a piece of inner window trim to protect the headliner from being gouged up. Vance said that's what he has seen on the original cars he has worked on.
These four pictures are of the rear tail panel and/or valance area, showing some of the metal work they've done to this point. I mentioned a little earlier why they had to cut into that valance area on either side of the license plate recess, and that second picture is another angle on the repairs that they had to make.
OK, now some of the fun stuff...
This is a '71 HemiCharger R/T from Harold Sullivan's collection. It was an export car, shipped to Europe for the original owner who was in the service at that time. Quite the terror on the European dragstrip scene back in it's heyday, and supposedly still holds multiple track records across the pond. VERY nice car that Vance restored over a decade ago.
A few more of the cars at various stages of restoration from Vance's shop. The 'Vert Coronet R/T is a Hemicar, as is the B5 '70 GTX.
My daughter would dearly love to have the FM3 Road Runner (383 4-speed car), but that PeptoBismol color would take some getting used to. Definitely eye-catching though...
The shaker-hooded E-Bodies (both the blue one and the green one in the paint booth) and the black convertible were all on the sheet metal side of Vance's shop when my car arrived, and I'm really looking forward to the day when my car gets to sit on the "clean" side of the shop for a change...
Vance did give me a disc with more pictures on it, but I haven't looked at it yet. I won't give PocketThunder anything to beat me over the head with, so I won't box myself into a corner with a deadline (especially since I have some vacation time coming up).
That's all the car pics for now, but this last shot is one I took from the balcony at the B&B my wife and I stayed at in Grand Haven. She went with me to visit Vance's place and to do some "Equal Opportunity Shopping" :icon_smile_blackeye:
Holy Smokes is your car getting the once over or what! Nice... :yesnod:
NOW I KNOW WHY IM BROKE , YOU HAVE ALL THE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: daytonalo on May 31, 2007, 10:12:01 AM
YOU HAVE ALL THE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_smile_big:
I only wish that were the case. See this remark made early in this thread:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 28, 2007, 01:19:18 PM
Magnumcharger, you forgot to add one component to your list:
e) Remember to spend an equal amount on your spouse so that you don't end up sleeping in the car...
Oh, and I'd love to have an A12 someday too, but the musclecar market has passed me by. I'm blowing my hobby money for the next several years on Vance's restoration - plus, see note (e) above... :P
Although, I have wondered if this is what Vance was using for body putty:
Hey Geno. After looking at all the pictures I havent seen any pics of the torque boxes, I thought all big block 4 speed cars had torque boxes?
Quote from: pandamarie on May 31, 2007, 10:58:17 AM
Hey Geno. After looking at all the pictures I havent seen any pics of the torque boxes, I thought all big block 4 speed cars had torque boxes?
Not a bad question, and I've heard that stated before. However, the torque boxes were normally found only on Hemicars and convertibles, although you will occasionally find a hardtop/sedan 440 car that had them and even more rarely see a Hemicar without them. 99% of the time though, a 440 (either automatic or 4-speed) will not have the torque boxes or the other reinforcements found on a Hemicar.
Truly amazing work happening there, Chrysler (or no other car co. for that matter) never built them with that level of craftsmanship. I had to run out to check the filler tube opening on both my cars, even the car with a 342XXX VIN has the oval hole. A big thanks to Ray and you for posting that info, I never would have thought of that.
You could burn a couple of DVD's of the bodywork stage and sell them (maybe even through the clubs), I'd gladly buy one off you. Information like that is invaluable during the body stage (like the 69hemi site)
Hey, where did you come up with that photo of the front fender with the cash on it? That was my fender, and that cash was mine as well. However the picture was taken by cudaken.
Quote from: 69_500 on June 01, 2007, 03:58:41 PM
Hey, where did you come up with that photo of the front fender with the cash on it? That was my fender, and that cash was mine as well. However the picture was taken by cudaken.
well then i guess he got it from you :shruggy: :icon_smile_big:
I don't remember ever posting it though. Heck I don't even know where I saved it.
more good progress on the Daytona ( hemigeno) looking awesome :2thumbs:
Hey, thanks again everyone!
Danny, I saved that picture from the old D-C.com site. If I remember right, it was from the "3 Daytonas at the Shop" classic/monster thread, but I could be wrong... I thought it was pretty funny (but sadly appropriate) when I first saw it. While I remembered that the picture was CudaKen's, I had forgotten your connection to the picture. Where should I send the royalty check to? :icon_smile_big:
On a different subject - Vance was asking how the video editing was going. I told him that you were having more problems cleaning up the audio than anything else, but that you were probably getting close to being done. He's still interested in getting together with the fella from Detroit, and I think he wants to do it when you can make it and record the whole thing.
I may have another neat interview to set up for the Monster Mopar Weekend this year too. Seems there's a guy that lives not too far from me that told a friend of mine that he probably worked on my Daytona. I told my friend to politely relay that I doubted that was the case, since they were made at Hamtramck. He said "No, I worked for Chrysler at the St. Louis plant, but they farmed me out for two years to Creative Industries while they were working on the Aero cars." Small world... Anyway, this guy was supposedly involved in helping Creative sort out some problems with paint & finishes, and I'll be very interested in finding out what all he knows that would shed some light on the whole conversion process.
Much more on that subject later...
Geno
Hi Geno & Danny, how are you guys doing? that's sounds like a great contact if it works out. It would be awesome to find out even more about how things were done at Creative Industries. Do you know if anyone has any pictures inside the shop during the conversion process. I think it would be pretty awesome to see them sitting there in the pre-completion stage. Thanks
:icon_smile_big:
Steve
As far the editing of the video's go Gene. I'm dumped them all onto MiniDV, and started inserting them onto the computer to start the editing. I haven't even got all the clips labeled, and sorted yet, so its still quite a ways off as far as a completion goes. Been working on editing the Chrysler Classic from Columbus lately.
Would love to do the interview we talked about, and any more of people who worked on these cars when new, or even before they were created.
Never seen any assembly pictures from creative converting the wingcars.There is a 3 or 4 page conversion list from creative industries
Quote from: hemigeno on April 17, 2007, 09:36:50 AM
Thanks guys, it is slowly making progress.
Quote from: PocketThunder on April 17, 2007, 08:40:48 AM
These are all very nice and everything but when are we gonna see some paint!!!!!!!!
Not soon enough for either of us, believe me... It might be a while before I can make it back up, so maybe they'll have it all in primer and ready for the paint booth with the next batch of pictures. Strange how I can let the car sit for years without worrying too much about it, but once the resto gets going I get anxious for it to be done.
Speaking of wanting to see paint on some fresh sheet metal there, PT... :boxing_smiley: :D :stirthepot:
Opportunity has come a knocking on my door, which means I'll see you in Milwaukee at the Aero Car meet in August with my C500. :2thumbs: There wont be fresh paint on the car though.
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 25, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Opportunity has come a knocking on my door, which means I'll see you in Milwaukee at the Aero Car meet in August with my C500. :2thumbs: There wont be fresh paint on the car though.
Will it be moving under it's own power?
Quote from: CHARGER_FAN on June 25, 2007, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 25, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Opportunity has come a knocking on my door, which means I'll see you in Milwaukee at the Aero Car meet in August with my C500. :2thumbs: There wont be fresh paint on the car though.
Will it be moving under it's own power?
:yesnod: keep reading in the aero section my friend :drive:
Man, with this kinda detail this is gonna look sweet! Keep up the progress photos.
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 25, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Opportunity has come a knocking on my door, which means I'll see you in Milwaukee at the Aero Car meet in August with my C500. :2thumbs: There wont be fresh paint on the car though.
That's great to hear, Paul! I read your thread about the Leaning Tower Of Power - you're braver than I would be. CudaKen was always trying to talk me into dropping an engine in the Daytona and just cruising around in it Joe Dirt style. I guess I always wanted my first official drive to be without the quarterpanels flapping in the breeze. Besides, it didn't bother me to have it sitting in the corner untouched, but as soon as I'd have started working on it I'd have had a hard time finding a place to stop.
Quote from: nitrometal on June 25, 2007, 08:37:53 PM
Man, with this kinda detail this is gonna look sweet! Keep up the progress photos.
Thanks, nitro!
I'm heading up to Michigan again on Friday, so I should have another batch of pictures sometime after that. Vance told me last week that the engine is back from the machine shop. He also mentioned that the last coat of primer had been shot on the bottomside and was being sanded with 320grit. He thinks it might be off the rotisserie real soon, and my guess is it'll be in the paint booth in late July or early August.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 25, 2007, 09:28:55 PM
He also mentioned that the last coat of primer had been shot on the bottomside and was being sanded with 320grit. He thinks it might be off the rotisserie real soon, and my guess is it'll be in the paint booth in late July or early August.
Mine too.. I'm having to do that to my '68 to get it reshot again... 180/320 and then red scuff pad to smooth it all out.... This time I want paint in every spot.... Geno, are you doing the "primer/color" resto or applying color to the complete underside?
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 28, 2007, 10:11:25 AM
Geno, are you doing the "primer/color" resto or applying color to the complete underside?
We're going the primer/color resto route. It doesn't look as nice as a complete paintjob on the underside, but it's the way it came from the factory so that's what I'm going back with.
BTW, good to hear that you're still making progress on the '68. You'll be glad you took the time to do everything right in the end.
:cheers:
Hey Gene, the primer/paint combination is what the car looked like before the restoration isn't it? :brickwall:
Was just to easy to say.
It will be gorgeous when its complete. By the looks of the other cars at Vance's shop I"d say the Daytona will be impecible.
Quote from: 69_500 on June 28, 2007, 08:51:25 PM
Hey Gene, the primer/paint combination is what the car looked like before the restoration isn't it? :brickwall:
Well, sorta... between the road grime, grease, scale rust, rust pits and rust holes, you could see a few specks of primer. :P
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 28, 2007, 10:11:25 AM
Mine too.. I'm having to do that to my '68 to get it reshot again... 180/320 and then red scuff pad to smooth it all out.... This time I want paint in every spot....
Hey Troy, do you have have Dana on the rotisserie now?
I was more thinking along the lines of seeing red and blue together on the car. You should really update your sig pic Gene. Your car hasn't had a blue hood for over a year now.
Quote from: hemigeno on May 30, 2007, 06:50:30 PM
The first shot shows a change that was made since the last batch of photos. One of our eagle-eyed DC.com members (Ray / 69_charger_man) pointed out to me that the crossmember we salvaged along with the frame rails from that rear clip had a round filler tube hole. Even though Chargers did not utilize that filler tube hole, they used the same crossmember as the Bee/Runner did (which DID use the filler tube hole). Sometime around February of 1969 the stamping plant changed the shape of the filler tube hole from a round shape to an oval shape. The Daytona's original crossmember had the oval shaped hole, whereas the piece we scavenged off of that rear clip was (you guessed it) the round shape. This little detail isn't super noticeable, but it is definitely visible if you know what to look for. I had even read a thread on the Moparts A12 forum about this very subject the very same month that I had taken that rear clip up to Vance. In other words, I should have noticed that detail, but I didn't - and it escaped Vance's notice too. Ray pointed it out to me, and I appreciate his doing so, since catching that "mistake" while it's in the sheet metal stage is much better than noticing it after the paint is on.
Anyway, the second picture shows the cuts that they had to make in the (formerly NOS) rear lower valance in order to get at that crossmember to elongate the hole - effectively converting it to the oval style from the round style. There just wasn't an easy way to get to it without making those cuts. Sad but true.
BTW, thanks again, Ray! :wave:
Gene. Is there any specific date when the new crossmember was put into production. My '70 440+6 Roadrunner has the oval hole and has 511 on the fender tag. Or was the round hole crossmember only used at specific plants?
Matt
Quote from: Moparmatty on July 11, 2007, 08:50:16 PM
Gene. Is there any specific date when the new crossmember was put into production. My '70 440+6 Roadrunner has the oval hole and has 511 on the fender tag. Or was the round hole crossmember only used at specific plants?
Matt
AFAIK, the '70 model year cars should all have the oval hole and the break/change happened about the halfway mark of the '69 model year. So far I have seen cars built prior to 2/1/69 with the round hole and pretty much everything built after that has had an oval hole. The rear crossmember we used came from a car built fairly eary in the '69 model year (so it had a round hole), and the Daytona's were all built after the change with oval holes. That's why Vance had to modify the replacement crossmember to have an oval hole.
If your 'Runner has an oval hole, that's what it should have based on what I've seen.
Sorry if my explanation(s) were a little fuzzy...
I also have a batch of pictures from a trip to Michigan at the end of June, but they're pretty much the same as the last batch. Vance & his guys are still working on the undercarriage, and they are going to finish off the rocker panels and most of the trunk before taking it off the rotisserie. While they are making progress, there is still a whole lot of work to do before it'll be ready for paint. The engine compartment alone could take a couple of weeks to get to the same level that the underneath side is - and the engine compartment is much more visible. I'm hoping for paint in August, but that could be off. I'd still rather them take the time to do things right than to rush the job along. Seeing Chris Sauer's former car at Carlisle was a taste of how good my car could potentially look - although his car was in much better shape to start with... :-\
Quote from: nitrometal on June 29, 2007, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 28, 2007, 10:11:25 AM
Mine too.. I'm having to do that to my '68 to get it reshot again... 180/320 and then red scuff pad to smooth it all out.... This time I want paint in every spot....
Hey Troy, do you have have Dana on the rotisserie now?
Hey there Phil..
Nope.. I was referring to the '68.. I got the car back after my return from Iraq. The outside of the car is top-notch, but the underside and engine compartment had a lot to be desired. The problem was the clear was put on too dry in order to make a deadlline. Because of this, the clear dried rough.. So, I sanded/scuffed the complete underside and engine compartment.. I'm getting my dollies for the car I'm having made this week, get it on them and take it back for about a week I guess.. From then, I can start putting parts/trim back on.. That's when the slow fun begins I think......
Troy
Quote from: hemigeno on July 11, 2007, 10:31:44 PM
AFAIK, the '70 model year cars should all have the oval hole and the break/change happened about the halfway mark of the '69 model year. So far I have seen cars built prior to 2/1/69 with the round hole and pretty much everything built after that has had an oval hole. The rear crossmember we used came from a car built fairly eary in the '69 model year (so it had a round hole), and the Daytona's were all built after the change with oval holes. That's why Vance had to modify the replacement crossmember to have an oval hole.
If your 'Runner has an oval hole, that's what it should have based on what I've seen.
Sorry if my explanation(s) were a little fuzzy...
I also have a batch of pictures from a trip to Michigan at the end of June, but they're pretty much the same as the last batch. Vance & his guys are still working on the undercarriage, and they are going to finish off the rocker panels and most of the trunk before taking it off the rotisserie. While they are making progress, there is still a whole lot of work to do before it'll be ready for paint. The engine compartment alone could take a couple of weeks to get to the same level that the underneath side is - and the engine compartment is much more visible. I'm hoping for paint in August, but that could be off. I'd still rather them take the time to do things right than to rush the job along. Seeing Chris Sauer's former car at Carlisle was a taste of how good my car could potentially look - although his car was in much better shape to start with... :-\
I must have misunderstood what you had originally said. I took it as though the later built cars got the round hole. Thanks for clearing that up Gene.
Matt
Holy smoothness Geno !!!! The panels and underside of your Charger is AWESOME !!!!!!!! VANCE is the man !!!! No wonder you took it to him........
impressed and in awe...
Troy
Quote from: hemi68charger on July 12, 2007, 09:21:35 AM
Holy smoothness Geno !!!! The panels and underside of your Charger is AWESOME !!!!!!!! VANCE is the man !!!! No wonder you took it to him........
impressed and in awe...
Troy
Well, they're getting pretty smooth, for sure. This whole stage of the project is one of those that seems to take forever, but it makes all the difference in the world. Vance's comment was that paying this much attention to the nooks, crannies etc. is "What separates the Men from the Boys" in the restoration world.
I know I would never have the patience to spend that many hours sanding on the same car over and over. I'd have grabbed the paint gun way back in April when they were putting the first coat of filler on some of these seams.
I figured I would go ahead and post some more of the pictures I took on June 30th when I last saw the car. Vance and his guys were still working on the underneath side, and hoped to get it off of the rotisserie soon. While it was flipped on its side, they wanted to hit the underneath side of the rocker panels, and do most of the trunk compartment. Between working in those areas and perhaps hitting some of the engine compartment and front framerails, it could be a while longer before the car is topside again. Then they'll be able to start fitting body panels and really making everything straight. That might go fairly quickly, since the fenders, hood, decklid and doors have all been filled/sanded/primed. They'll still be spending lots of time block sanding all of the body, I'm sure. My guess is that it won't see the paint booth until late August. That's still just fine with me, since the time and effort they put into everything now will only make the finished product that much better.
Anyway, here are four pictures of the underneath side. The last three are of the trunk extension panel including the front and back joints.
More pictures, which show part of the wheelhouse and seams. I tried to focus on some of the bracket and panel edges that they've spent more than a few hours filling and sanding. Those are details that would have escaped me, for sure.
Detail pictures galore... ;D
Still more detail shots.
More detail shots.
I tried to get closeup shots showing the attention to detail around some of these brackets. It is amazing to see how much work they've done to reach in with putty knives and sandpaper back underneath the brackets to fill/sand these areas smooth just like the panel areas that are much more visible. When they're done, I seriously doubt you could find a single area that did not appear smooth as glass.
More of the same
:-\
I really did take a lot of shots from the underneath side, since I may not have this good of a vantage point ever again. Sorry if it seems like overkill to some of you guys!
It's hard to say which pictures are useful and which ones aren't. I've lamented a lot already that I did not take more pictures of the car when it was unrestored, so I am trying to make sure I don't have the same regrets about the restoration process.
These first two pictures show an example of things that they have yet to finish up. When they get all the filling/sanding work done, they are going to come back with a tool that will replicate the look of the factory spot welds. Again, the intent is to make the finished product indistinguishable from a factory-fresh car.
Details, details...
There are so many nooks and crannies that it's hard to really show the level of effort that has gone into each little area without a seemingly endless parade of pictures like this.
The last two pictures are showing some areas inside the passenger compartment that they haven't spent much time on yet.
The first three pictures are showing the floorboard seam near where the door's front pillar is. You can still see the patch panel from the top side, but there's no evidence of it on the underneath. The top side will be finished to match the underneath side once it's off the rotisserie.
The last picture shows the hollow vertical wing stabilizer from underneath. I looked around a while back for a picture of the inside, and realized I hadn't taken one from that perspective, so here it is.
You know that once this is done and it looks so nice you're gonna freak out after you hit that first mud puddle! :'(
Quote from: nitrometal on July 13, 2007, 07:25:35 PM
You know that once this is done and it looks so nice you're gonna freak out after you hit that first mud puddle! :'(
Probably so, probably so...
That's the downside of this type of resto, for sure. However, I think that after a couple of years I'll be willing to drive it around. Maybe I should just put a dent in it somewhere right after I bring it home and get it over with, y'think?
This batch shows the trunk compartment where they still haven't spent a whole lot of time finishing things out.
One thing you can see if you look for it is some dents in the trunk floor ribs. They dented the ribs out at the ends to make the contours match the original panels. While the reproduction panels have a fairly close profile, the rib contours are not quite as pronounced and the ends were too rounded compared to the original panels. They massaged all these areas to match the shape of the originals so that the goal of having a finished product that so closely resembles the factory-fresh sheet metal that it is hard to see any differences for even the most discerning people. This is even in an area that is hidden (on the bottom) by the fuel tank...
In the last picture, I was trying to take a picture of the seam where the quarterpanel patch and the original sheet metal were joined. It is approximately over the left rear wheel, but my camera wanted to focus on the jack support bracket instead :icon_smile_blackeye:
Last batch of pictures for now...
These are some shots of the engine block that was recently returned by the machine shop. IIRC they only had to bore it out 0.020 as the block I bought from Tony D'Agostino looked to be a low-mileage standard bore block in really good shape.
Vance took the block over to his uncle's house who has an X-Ray machine. They X-Ray'd the VIN pad to confirm that it had never been stamped, and the results confirmed that to be the case. If it had been stamped, the metal's crystallization structure would be deformed much deeper into the block than could be eliminated by grinding the pad off. There was no evidence of any machine work on the pad since the factory's swiping of the area, so it remains a mystery why this block was not stamped. I am extremely happy to have found this block, since the ID pad up by the distributor shows it to have an Assembly Date of June 6, 1969 when my car's Scheduled Production Date was 6/9/69. Dave B's (nascarxx29) former Daytona had an SPD really close to mine, and his numbers matching engine was dated 6/11/69, so I am really confident that mine would have been dated very close to the date of this engine.
Vance made double-sure that the machine shop did not machine off the stampings on the ID pad, as that would have been disastrous to lose the E440, 6 6 and HP2 stampings.
He'll start assembling the engine sometime soon, I suppose.
That is going to be one beautiful car. You're in Washington, MO, right? Can't wait to see it around (hopefully).
wow! it's looking good :2thumbs:
Yes , great job ! Give us a hint on paint and body work ! 40k ?
:2thumbs: :popcrn:
I think that is at least the 2nd time in this thread that daytonalo has asked about the price. Does it really matter? Its a great looking restoration, and its going to be an incredible ride once it is done. Its Gene's car, and he is the one paying for it, so why does it matter what the cost is? Unless of course your considering having Vance do one of your cars as well. However somehow I don't see this as the case.
Quote from: Fitz73Chrgr on August 10, 2007, 03:10:02 PM
That is going to be one beautiful car. You're in Washington, MO, right? Can't wait to see it around (hopefully).
Thanks, Fitz, Rene & 70CB! Yep, I'm from WashMO and I do hope to have the car out and about some once it's back. The days of this car terrorizing the streets like it did in St.Joseph, MO 35 years ago are probably over but I will have a blast driving it nonetheless.
Sorry for the delay in getting back with you, as I was on a little Daytona-related road trip this weekend. I left home Thursday afternoon and drove to Michigan, checked on the car at Vance's on Friday (I do have some more pictures but there has been no stunning progress since last month), drove to Columbus OH Friday night, and did the Swap Meet at the 'Nats all day Saturday looking for parts and drove home Saturday night. 1,500 miles & 24 hours of windshield time in the space of 54 hours, but that was better than making two separate trips.
Quote from: daytonalo on August 10, 2007, 08:38:46 PM
Yes , great job !
Thanks, Larry - I think... :scratchchin:
More pics & details next week when I've had a chance to upload and resize them...
So Gene, how was the Nats? worth going over for? Or did I not miss anything spectacular?
Quote from: hemigeno on July 13, 2007, 07:28:28 PM
Quote from: nitrometal on July 13, 2007, 07:25:35 PM
You know that once this is done and it looks so nice you're gonna freak out after you hit that first mud puddle! :'(
Probably so, probably so...
That's the downside of this type of resto, for sure. However, I think that after a couple of years I'll be willing to drive it around. Maybe I should just put a dent in it somewhere right after I bring it home and get it over with, y'think?
OH HELL NO!! Treat it like you bought off the showroom floor and baby it! :2thumbs:
2fast
Danny,
I couldn't tell you much about the 'Nats in general, as I made almost a direct bee-line for the Swap Meet when I got there and hardly took the time to look over the cars there. Never even made it to the judged car side, in fact. Mike C. from West Virginia had a Y2 Hemi500 for sale in the swap meets that I did take some pictures of for you - although I'll wager you can probably spout off the VIN # from memory anyway... :o
Right before I left on Thursday I sprained something in my foot so I was limping around pretty good all weekend and didn't feel like taking much of a stroll through the cars after I had gone through the swaps. It did appear that they had straightened out the Fun Field since we were there 2 years ago. There wasn't a single minivan or daily-driver type ride in the areas that I saw, which was a vast improvement. Besides, by leaving for home about 4pm allowed me to get a decent night's sleep in my own bed and I was able to take the family to Church Sunday morning as usual :2thumbs:
From what I could tell, it did look like things were a little more organized and under control - but that might not actually be the case if you talk to folks who participated.
Hmmm, I'm guessing that it was the same Y2 HEMI 500 that was for sale at Carlisle then.
No minivans in the fun field area? WHAT? Your kidding. This made the first time in the history of the nationals that I did not attend the show. I can't think of any Nats in the past 10 years that I would call organized, but that is just my opinion.
Gene, good talking to you . I'm glad you stopped by.
Sounds like the resto is meeting your expectations in regards to accuracy.
Regardless of costs, if your happy with it then the amount spent is irrelevant
Thanks, Bill! Hope the rest of the weekend went as well as you had hoped. You guys seemed to be pretty busy, and that's a good thing!
Did you find any taillight bezels for your 300? That's going to be an awesome cruiser when it's finished.
send you some more pictures of mine gene it's all green now
stuart
Stuart, I did get the pictures you sent - thanks for sending those! Like I told you in the email, a 'Vert Superbird (especially as nice as yours looks like it'll be) will definitely draw a crowd... :2thumbs:
Well, I finally got around to resizing the pictures from my latest trip to Vance's this past Friday. Like usual, I'd rather post them all than to pick-n-choose which ones are "worthy" of posting. Anyway, the car is finally off the rotisserie and back on it's topside again. I was certainly glad to see that, since it has been on the spit since early in April. That's what I get for having a car with a severly pitted undercarriage... :'(
The last three pictures show some of the work that they are doing to finish the quarterpanel patch that they had to do.
Three more pictures showing the Quarterpanel patch, with the last of the three being taken from inside the trunk compartment looking at the inside of the vertical seam over the wheelwell. I think they are going to sand this area off just a bit more yet before it goes into paint.
Here are some pictures taken of the mostly-finished trunk compartment. They masked it off to keep the overspray buildup from getting too bad.
Two more shots of the trunk compartment corners. Hey Troy (hemi68charger) - was this the area that you were going to try and infill on your '68?
The last two shots are of the door jamb area, which will still need some work as you can see.
Some shots of the passenger compartment, which they've started to finish out. Lots of sanding and filling work yet to be done in here too though... :rotz:
One more passenger compartment shot, and three shots of the shock towers. Some Hamtramck worker got really happy with the spot welder on the driver's side - there are some REALLY big spot weld dimples on that side for whatever reason... :o
Some shots of the radiator support/yoke. Right now, the area they're working the most on is from the firewall forward. Once they get the engine compartment, etc. and the passenger's compartment done, they'll be able to start hanging body panels. That's when it'll start looking more like a car again. Can't wait!!
:2thumbs:
I took several shots of the piece that the latchtray fastens to. This piece is spot-welded to the radiator yoke as you can see. Normally, this is painted black on top- apparently when they were doing the blackout paint that was sprayed around the inner part of the fenders. For whatever reason, my car received no paint in that inner fender area, and this particular piece was left bare on both the upper and lower sides (the lower side was always left bare). I asked Vance whether he was going to replace this piece, since it is fairly pitted up from never having been protected from the elements. Vance's thoughts were that it would be better to smooth this original piece out and give it a faux bare metal finish than it would be to remove it and replace the original piece with a reproduction part. That's a matter of semantics, I suppose. Judging from what I've seen of Vance's handiwork I doubt that anyone would be able to tell that it was not a bare metal piece without scratching around on it. We shall see though...
One more shot of the latchtray attachment piece, and then some shots of the inner fenders that they're currently smoothing out.
Two shots of the inner fender (from the outside), and a couple of shots of the firewall. There is still a LOT of work to do to the firewall area, and this is another one of those areas that has a lot of deformations from the original stamping process which makes the smoothing process more difficult.
I tried to get some shots of the firewall that show the deformation "damage" left from the engine fire the car had in 1977. The worst of the warping is to the left of the wiper motor, but hopefully with some hammer & dolly work it'll shrink right back into place. One more thing to worry about though...
Some shots of the cowl / A-pillar area
Two shots showing the cowl/firewall area that still has some heat warp damage from the engine fire. The pictures didn't quite show all of what was deformed, but if you ran your hand across it you could still feel the ups/downs in the metal. The metal is still good and strong in this area, but it was definitely heated up enough to cause some warping.
Last one for now...
The engine block was almost ready for the crank to be dropped into place when I was there. The only thing they had left to do before final cleaning was to insert some allen screws into the block to restrict the oil flow to the top side of the engine. We're going to use a hydraulic roller camshaft rather than the original-style flat tappets. That'll let us get a little more aggressive with the lobe profile and ramp speeds.
The level of work going into this car is insane. This is the kind if stuff I started out doing but got so anxious I gave up. After seeing these pictures I am seriously considering stopping my progress and ripping it back apart. These pictures prove it. It is do-able.
The cars looking simply amazing. Cant wait to see this bad boy finished. Any idea on when you think it will be done?
Thanks, guys!
I'm pretty amazed at the craftmanship too, but I know there are other shops around that can do high quality work as well. If you have tons of patience (and way more bodywork skills than I do) some of you guys could do the same on your own rides. These guys are just phenomenal not only in their work product, but I'd wager that Vance knows as much as anyone about how these cars were put together. Especially Daytonas.
There is another '69 Charger in his shop that they just started working on, the F6 green RT/SE Sunroof car that was on eBay about 6 months ago or so. When my car is ready for paint, he's going to borrow the fenders on that car and paint it with those '69 Fenders on it so that he can replicate how Hamtramck made the car look. That way, when he pulls those fenders off and installs the original Daytona fenders, the exposed primer from the fender mounting bracket pattern will be exactly like it was when the car was new. Details, details...
Forza, as far as when it will be done -- I have no deadline or dates on when that might be. My guess is sometime in late fall or early winter, but since it will certainly be finished up after the Car Show season (and during the road salt season here in Missouri), it doesn't matter to me whether it gets done in December or March. I asked Vance if it would be ready for paint in about a month, and he felt that was about right - but I've told him repeatedly that I'd rather that they took the time to do the car right than to rush the work trying to meet an artificial deadline. Probably not the best thing to tell a Bodyshop working by the hour, but they've done well so far.
this car is so awesome just going to be amazing
So Gene, what does the RT/SE with the sunroof look like? Never saw that one in person, only talked to the previous owner (I'm assuming he sold it by now) about 3 years ago about that car.
Danny, was the former owner that you spoke with from around Jim M.'s neck of the woods?
Vance said that overall it was a very solid car, with little pitting in most of the sheet metal. He is going to have to do some sheet metal replacement/patch work here and there, but a lot of the usual problem spots (lower quarters, trunk extensions, etc.) were in really good shape.
Had my car's sheet metal been in that kind of shape, we'd be looking at final assembly pictures right now... :-\
looking good , more awesome progress :yesnod:, thanks for posting :yesnod: looking forward to seeing more pictures as & when Geno :popcrn:
Yeah he wasn't too far from where Jim lives. I think that it traded hands between then and now though. I think that the first time i talked to the guy he was asking like $30K for the car, and that was before I paid that for my 500.
Man that looks great Geno, It's almost October, I'm guessing she is getting real close to paint by now. When is your next progress pictures going to be posted?
Aww come on hemigeno, Put a block heater in that 440,some knobby rear tires and drive it.The nose will pierce the snow banks quite easily.LOL
Quote from: UFO on September 20, 2007, 10:02:46 AM
Aww come on hemigeno, Put a block heater in that 440,some knobby rear tires and drive it.The nose will pierce the snow banks quite easily.LOL
:smilielol:
CudaKen was forever trying to get me to do the same thing. I didn't have the same level of intestinal fortitude that PT had, in putting a project car on the road. I kept telling Ken that there was no good place to start or stop with fixing that car up enough to put it on the road. Besides, I tend to go overboard with fixing things up, as any of you guys who have seen my 2-ton truck can attest. That started off as a spray-bomb restoration :brickwall:
Quote from: 41husk on September 20, 2007, 09:49:52 AM
Man that looks great Geno, It's almost October, I'm guessing she is getting real close to paint by now. When is your next progress pictures going to be posted?
Thanks, Allen!
You're right, it is getting close to paint. I spoke with Vance last week, and the car has all its sheetmetal installed except for the nosecone. That was going to be shipped out to be dipped very soon. They were going over all the bodypanels to make sure everything is straight and up to their (very picky) standards.
I am heading back up for a visit next weekend (the 29th) and will have a whole bunch of pictures to post by then. My suspicions are that the car won't be red until sometime in October, but that's alright.
The engine is in longblock form now, and the transmission has been rebuilt.
The pieces are starting to come together now... :ricky:
gene do you know cuda ken ?? or how to get ahold of him. I own his 69 charger now and am told he still has my fender tag ???
Can you help ??
I have Kens address, if he still lives there. He doesn't answer the phone or emails. I stopped by about 3 months ago, he still lived there then but was not home. I left a note on the door asking him to get ahold of me, but he never replied.
thanks any info you have on my car or a way to get ahold of him would help
Quote from: hemigeno on August 16, 2007, 08:20:58 AM
Thanks, guys!
When my car is ready for paint, he's going to borrow the fenders on that car and paint it with those '69 Fenders on it so that he can replicate how Hamtramck made the car look. That way, when he pulls those fenders off and installs the original Daytona fenders, the exposed primer from the fender mounting bracket pattern will be exactly like it was when the car was new. Details, details... not the best thing to tell a Bodyshop working by the hour, but they've done well so far.
ok wow... that's something that i've never seen done. I was just thinking about that the other day, too. you'll also get the seam sealer falling off properly.
are you going to shoot the car once, or the top twice as creative did? you'd have to do some final assembly to get the overspray right. are you going to have exposed primer on the undersides of panels? yours could be the first true reference restoration!
Quote from: pettybird on September 20, 2007, 03:02:31 PM
are you going to shoot the car once, or the top twice as creative did?
To be honest, I don't know specifically what the paint sequence will be, but I know the goal is to replicate the finished look of the car as it left Creative Industries. I'm particularly interested to see how he's going to handle the sail panel area and the window plug. The underneath side of the plug and the bracing/support for the window channel was left bare metal, but the sail and dutchman/filler panels were painted body color originally at Hamtramck. If you look in front of & above the relocated trunk lip, you can plainly see that whole area including the angle that they spot welded along the sail panel to help locate and support the edge of the window plug. They have sandblasted all the original paint off the sail panels, and removed the rust from the bare metal. The sail panel will need to be painted body color (red), but not the plug & bracing -- although it would be better to treat the plug's metal with something rather than leave it bare to rust up again. Also, there is melted lead that ran down the sail panel from where they filled the gap between the plug and the C-pillar/sail panel, and that sticks out like a sore thumb on top of that R4 red paint. It'll be interesting to see how Vance can replicate all those little details, but I am sure he has a plan.
Quote from: pettybird on September 20, 2007, 03:02:31 PM
you'd have to do some final assembly to get the overspray right. are you going to have exposed primer on the undersides of panels?
I know that he does do multiple paint shots to get the right finished effect. That includes a whole lot of final assembly before the front clip will ultimately get painted. There are areas of the hood that could not physically be painted due to the fact that the hood was mounted on the car when it was shot. I also know that he intends to put overspray in other areas of the engine compartment to simulate the careless overspray protection that Creative was famous/infamous for. That includes overspray on that NOS set of vacuum hoses I bought a while back :o
Primer will be quite visible on the undersides of the panels, although I hope it'll last a little longer than the original coat!
Quote from: pettybird on September 20, 2007, 03:02:31 PM
yours could be the first true reference restoration!
There are undoubtedly people who would cringe at the use of the terms "reference" and "restoration" being applied to the same car, but that is exactly what my goal is (albeit I am not worried about whether it is the first example or not). Ultimately, the only person who needs to be satisfied with the finished product is me, and I'm continually trying to remind myself of that fact. The more research and learning that I have done, the more it intrigues me to try and put a restoration effort of this type/level together - simply because it is somewhat rare to see. I am beginning to see that one of the major hurdles is getting the proper parts together. Even though I have found quite a few primo parts through some very kind folks' help, there are many things that seem to be made of unobtanium. If that continues to be the case, no matter how hard we try there will be some slight discernable differences - but the goal is to keep those to a minimum (and concealed if possible :coolgleamA: )
She's really coming along great. I just wanted to mention as far as the primer on the underbody, doesn't Dave P. sell some coating that looks like the old grey primer but doesn't absorb moisture like the primer will.
WINGR
Quote from: hemigeno on September 20, 2007, 10:44:07 AM
Quote from: UFO on September 20, 2007, 10:02:46 AM
Aww come on hemigeno, Put a block heater in that 440,some knobby rear tires and drive it.The nose will pierce the snow banks quite easily.LOL
:smilielol:
CudaKen was forever trying to get me to do the same thing. I didn't have the same level of intestinal fortitude that PT had, in putting a project car on the road. I kept telling Ken that there was no good place to start or stop with fixing that car up enough to put it on the road. Besides, I tend to go overboard with fixing things up, as any of you guys who have seen my 2-ton truck can attest. That started off as a spray-bomb restoration :brickwall:
Its very easy really, i call it married with a mortage and two kids, no time or money for a restoration, so lets get it on the road and drive baby!! :drive:
unobtanium :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I have a pile of shots of the dressler motors daytona, and that's a very low mileage car with a (mostly) untouched underhood area. do you have pics of that yet? The body was touched up a TON, which is a shame...apparently they couldn't stop running into things at the dealership. the car only has something like 6,000 miles on it.
another weird question--did creative overspray your taillight cover panel, or the lights themselves? malcom's daytona has paint all over the panel, my friend's taillights are F5 on top... what have you found to be the prevalent condition?
HemiGeno-you should change yer name to "god" or something. Only a PERFECT person can afford/restore the car THAT NICE. Good Job. Maybe you can collect-up a chronological time history/pics and write a CD-ROM based book on your resto from beginning to when you're done. It only costs 35.oo to Copywright it @ The Library of Congress !
-Tesh
Quote from: WINGR on September 20, 2007, 09:18:11 PM
She's really coming along great. I just wanted to mention as far as the primer on the underbody, doesn't Dave P. sell some coating that looks like the old grey primer but doesn't absorb moisture like the primer will.
WINGR
Thanks, Steve! I think I know the product David sells or recommends that you were talking about. However, me giving Vance advice about which automotive paint products to use is like me giving my wife advice about which clothes she should wear :P
Quote from: PocketThunder on September 20, 2007, 11:48:36 PM
Its very easy really, i call it married with a mortage and two kids, no time or money for a restoration, so lets get it on the road and drive baby!!
:2thumbs:
That's actually the reason I didn't buy one of these cars a long time ago. We built the "dream house" and that set my "dream car" plans back many years, but that's alright since sleeping in the car gets a little cramped after a while. First things first, right?? Even when I did get back on the trail of a Daytona, the only thing I could manage was purchasing a project car - but at least that was before the market really went crazy.
Quote from: pettybird on September 21, 2007, 12:45:27 AM
I have a pile of shots of the dressler motors daytona, and that's a very low mileage car with a (mostly) untouched underhood area. do you have pics of that yet? The body was touched up a TON, which is a shame...apparently they couldn't stop running into things at the dealership. the car only has something like 6,000 miles on it.
I'd love to get a copy of those pictures if you were willing/able to send them -- I'm definitely a reference photohound. Frank Badalson had taken some pictures of that same car and posted them on the WW/NBOA site, but I can always use more.
Quote from: pettybird on September 21, 2007, 12:45:27 AM
another weird question--did creative overspray your taillight cover panel, or the lights themselves? malcom's daytona has paint all over the panel, my friend's taillights are F5 on top... what have you found to be the prevalent condition?
My Daytona's taillight cover was not oversprayed very much - if at all. From what I understood, they left that panel in place when the paint work was done on the trunk area, but they almost certainly covered the tail panel (and along with it the taillight cover) with a blanket or cloth tarp when the paint was sprayed. Most of the time, the trunk weatherstripping has little (if any) overspray on it, and that was normally left intact and in place during the conversion indicating it was normally covered/protected. If they had to go back later on and do a touch-up spray job perhaps they didn't use the blanket, which might explain the Malcom's car - but that's just a pure guess. From my way of thinking, there was no reason for Creative to have taken out the taillight cover panel - and they certainly wouldn't have worried about replacing it if they did get some overspray on it. Heck, Creative didn't even totally remove the trunk weatherstripping that they did have to work around, so why would they have removed something that wasn't really in their way?
As far as any paint on the top of the taillight housings, I'd say there is a better chance that such paint was put there during the Hamtramck assembly process moreso than the Creative Industries conversion - perhaps as part of an assembly-line damage repair?? :shruggy:
To directly answer your question, I don't recall seeing much overspray on original taillight cover panels but I wasn't specifically looking for that detail either. I can ask Vance for what he has seen in the past, as he's seen (& disassembled) a whole lot more original cars than I have.
Quote from: GeneralLeeTESH on September 21, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
HemiGeno-you should change yer name to "god" or something. Only a PERFECT person can afford/restore the car THAT NICE. Good Job. Maybe you can collect-up a chronological time history/pics and write a CD-ROM based book on your resto from beginning to when you're done. It only costs 35.oo to Copywright it @ The Library of Congress !
-Tesh
Thanks, Tesh... a "god" I am certainly not, and my wife will quickly second that motion. I will be recovering from this little exercise in frustration for a while, but I am too stubborn and too hard-headed not to see it through. When I bought the car I did not envision a restoration to this level of detail, but researching and finding out about all the intricate details of how these cars were built was a dangerous thing with me. That's when the snowball started rolling downhill on this project too (see the comment I made above about my truck's spray-bomb restoration). I honestly don't think I have the stomach to do this sort of restoration ever again. That's not to say I'll be putting an ejection seat in the HemiCharger anytime soon ;) , but I don't think I'll be quite as worried about every little detail.
I have to say, you impress me a being a very articulate, and intelligent communicator Gene.
It really is a pleasure to read your comments on this thread.
Perhaps if you do decide to put together a photo-reference CD of the restoration of your Daytona, you might consider adding some of your dialogue to it.
Now why did I write that? I'm not normally that nice... :shruggy:
Quote from: Magnumcharger on September 21, 2007, 11:09:34 PM
I have to say, you impress me a being a very articulate, and intelligent communicator Gene.
It really is a pleasure to read your comments on this thread.
Perhaps if you do decide to put together a photo-reference CD of the restoration of your Daytona, you might consider adding some of your dialogue to it.
Now why did I write that? I'm not normally that nice... :shruggy:
Thanks, Robin! I sincerely appreciate the feedback - but don't start getting all mushy on us here, we wouldn't know what to think :icon_smile_big:
As for the idea of a CD goes, let's see what level of sanity I retain after this process is over with. It's a thought, though... :scratchchin:
Gene
Cudos Geno. I agree with MagnumCharger. It is a pleasure to read your dialogue. You are articulate and that seems to be a rare quality these days. As a school teacher, some of what I read truly scares me. Your Daytona is going to be a stunning automobile. Keep up the good work! :2thumbs:
I know the answer to the price on the 2 ton truck ;D lol. but I'll never tell ;). I know gene through my dad. He was the general contractor for the vocational school I go to. My dad was the business manager for that school District. Gene's stuff is sweet.
Quote from: abebummy26 on October 02, 2007, 05:52:41 PM
I know the answer to the price on the 2 ton truck ;D lol. but I'll never tell ;). I know gene through my dad. He was the general contractor for the vocational school I go to. My dad was the business manager for that school District. Gene's stuff is sweet.
Hi Lincoln!!!
:wave:
Hey. How's it going? I'm glad to see your Daytona is getting the attention it deserves.
Quote from: WINGR on September 20, 2007, 09:18:11 PM
,,,, doesn't Dave P. sell some coating that looks like the old grey primer but doesn't absorb moisture like the primer will.
WINGR
Yeaper.. I just bought some and have taken it down to the body shop for my OEM undercarriage painting.. As soon as it's done, I'll post some more progress pics........
Wingless
Did you ever find a set of 69 MO plates?
i have an extra 69 missouri plate you only need one
I meant for Gene I know he was looking for some for a while. That was a few years back though.
Yeah, I found a few... :lol:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55976.0;attach=98366)
Quote from: hemigeno on October 03, 2007, 04:14:39 PM
Yeah, I found a few... :lol:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55976.0;attach=98366)
Yeah I say you did geez, wow!!! Those are all the plates they made in '69 other than the truck plates wow. :o I wish they still stamped the year in them in '83. Because I just bought an '83 1 ton 4x4 :2thumbs: . I found a set of '88 plates though I just need to pull them off the car soon.
wanna sell you d tag ??? I'm a missouri dealer thats the only reason
Quote from: moparstuart on October 03, 2007, 04:28:45 PM
wanna sell you d tag ??? I'm a missouri dealer thats the only reason
Actually, I want to hang onto the Dealer plate. I did check with the DMV in Jefferson City to see if I could license the Daytona with that plate. They told me that
no one could use an old Dealer plate to register their car, as it is considered "in conflict with an existing numbering system". Rats... However I found and bought a second June '69 MO plate - I wanted June to coincide with the build date of the car - which is what I will eventually register the car with I suppose.
One of the things I was trying to prepare for was a display as the Daytona would have been at the dealership. My car sold through a Missouri dealership, incidentally. I already have a magnetic base screwed to the Dealer plate (wrapped with duct tape to protect the paint). That way I can actually take the regular plate off and slap this Dealer plate on for car shows.
Ready for a test drive, y'know! :icon_smile_cool: :drive:
cool if you ever run across another 69 0r 70 d-tag grab it for me thanks
Btw if you collect any other newer plates i have tons here at the salvage yard
That is a really cool idea I would have never thought of that :coolgleamA:. I would really like to come and see it when you bring it back home or to the shop. Maybe see the hemi car to. I never did get to hear it roar. My dad gets to have all the fun and I'm more into cars than he is :brickwall:.
Looks like a Landy dart in the back ground of one of the pics
Wow, I did not realize that it had been so long since I updated this thread that it had slipped to Page 5 of this board. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it means we have a busy group of guys/gals here. :2thumbs:
Sorry for the long drought between updates, but I have been absolutely swamped here at work - once again, a good thing. I checked on the car back in late September, and I'll post most of the pictures I took then along with somewhat of an explanation on them. If the narrative isn't on a Pulitzer prize winning level, hopefully I'll be excused since I'm already late for supper tonight... :P
Anyway, here goes (135 pictures to follow)...
The first batch are of the right quarterpanel. I always knew bodywork took a lot of time and patience to perform (part of why I farmed the car out rather than letting my busy schedule and lack of patience ruin the finished product), but these guys have really shown a lot of attention to detail. I'd go nuts before I primed-blocked-sanded-filled over and over as many times as they have. That's what will make the finished product look like it's supposed to, so it is necessary.
More quarterpanel-related pictures. The first shows the marker lens hole, which they shaped using the actual bezels to make sure that they would plane out once everything is finished up. :o
If you look closely in the second picture, you can see a whole lot of filler in that second wing stud hole. I asked about that, and they said that for whatever reason there was a pretty deep but small-sized dent there. They couldn't really get to the backside of the divot without removing the wing washer, and since the whole area is covered with the base of the wing, they didn't worry about it much and just filled it in. My guess is that one of the Creative workers dropped the wing on the quarter as they were fitting the wing. :shruggy:
Some pictures of the right door and both sets of door hinges from a perspective you don't see much - from inside the front fender but with the splash shields removed (looking back towards the door jamb).
They are trying to get the margins as correct as they can, but by not having the car on its suspension the margins will change slightly. If you think about it, the factory did not have the cars on their suspension when they fitted the doors either. It could be that some additional work will need to be done to make the margins absolutely perfect, but this is step one anyway.
Lookin good man :2thumbs:
The first picture is of the mysterious holes around the C-pillar script emblems. I think I figured out what these holes are from. When I got the car, the script emblems were held on with sheet metal screws. I always wondered why that was, since they were supposed to be held on from the backside with speed nuts. When Vance started sanding around on the body, I found out for the first time that the car had been repainted at least once and probably twice (always with R4 from what we can tell). More than likely, during one of the repaints some genius pried the emblems off and then found out the hard way that they would have to take the headliner loose to get to the backsides of the studs. Drill a couple extra holes, and voila - problem solved... That's my best guess, but I think Vance may have discarded the old screwed-up emblems so I may never be able to double-check that logic. Vance's guys have since filled these holes in so they're gone for good.
The second pic is of the rocker panel area that is being smoothed out as slick as the topside.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 29, 2007, 09:06:26 PM
Anyway, here goes (135 pictures to follow)...
Bring 'em on!... Right Click, Save! :2thumbs:
Allen
A couple of pictures of the drip rail termination / back corner of the rear window. Someone had asked me several months ago about this area and I just now got around to taking/posting pictures of the area (sorry!).
Quote from: The70RT on November 29, 2007, 09:17:18 PM
Lookin good man :2thumbs:
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on November 29, 2007, 09:25:50 PM
Bring 'em on!... Right Click, Save! :2thumbs:
Allen
Thanks Guys! I'll be glad when this little task is done, but hopefully it'll help someone figure their stuff out...
Hey Geno, did I miss something somewhere about why the sail panel has too many emblem holes? :shruggy:
I took several different shots/angles of the front fenders, which honestly don't need much explanation.
Left Fender...
Quote from: 1hot68 on November 29, 2007, 09:28:33 PM
Hey Geno, did I miss something somewhere about why the sail panel has too many emblem holes? :shruggy:
Yup, about 4 replies earlier than yours... :P
Quote from: hemigeno on November 29, 2007, 09:22:56 PM
The first picture is of the mysterious holes around the C-pillar script emblems. I think I figured out what these holes are from. When I got the car, the script emblems were held on with sheet metal screws. I always wondered why that was, since they were supposed to be held on from the backside with speed nuts. When Vance started sanding around on the body, I found out for the first time that the car had been repainted at least once and probably twice (always with R4 from what we can tell). More than likely, during one of the repaints some genius pried the emblems off and then found out the hard way that they would have to take the headliner loose to get to the backsides of the studs. Drill a couple extra holes, and voila - problem solved... That's my best guess, but I think Vance may have discarded the old screwed-up emblems so I may never be able to double-check that logic. Vance's guys have since filled these holes in so they're gone for good.
The second pic is of the rocker panel area that is being smoothed out as slick as the topside.
A few more fender pics, right side
Looks Areo straight :yesnod:
I took a couple of pictures showing the lower edge of the fender, where the valance ties in. This is not a straight line, as you might think from just looking at a Daytona from a distance. Figured some guys could visualize things a little better after seeing these shots...
Quote from: hemigeno on November 29, 2007, 09:31:53 PM
Quote from: 1hot68 on November 29, 2007, 09:28:33 PM
Hey Geno, did I miss something somewhere about why the sail panel has too many emblem holes? :shruggy:
Yup, about 4 replies earlier than yours... :P
Quote from: hemigeno on November 29, 2007, 09:22:56 PM
The first picture is of the mysterious holes around the C-pillar script emblems. I think I figured out what these holes are from. When I got the car, the script emblems were held on with sheet metal screws. I always wondered why that was, since they were supposed to be held on from the backside with speed nuts. When Vance started sanding around on the body, I found out for the first time that the car had been repainted at least once and probably twice (always with R4 from what we can tell). More than likely, during one of the repaints some genius pried the emblems off and then found out the hard way that they would have to take the headliner loose to get to the backsides of the studs. Drill a couple extra holes, and voila - problem solved... That's my best guess, but I think Vance may have discarded the old screwed-up emblems so I may never be able to double-check that logic. Vance's guys have since filled these holes in so they're gone for good.
The second pic is of the rocker panel area that is being smoothed out as slick as the topside.
Oops!! sorry about that , I glazed right over that! :brickwall: Its looking great!!
One last shot of the outer fender, and then I'll get into a batch of inner fender shots from various perspectives.
So thats what it looked like a few months back. So Gene when is the next trip to Michigan to see the car again? It is winter time, and no car shows to attend on weekends, and you know me, I'm always up to seeing a Daytona. Heck this time I'd even go for 2 days instead of 1. :rotz:
More inner fender shots... The first does NOT show the hole that Danny and I researched and found to be present on every Daytona (except for 287970, which I still feel is akin to a pre-production car). They filled in the hole before we found out it's function, but we have it logged so it can be put right back where it was. If you think about it, the hole was drilled in by Creative Industries after the car was painted anyway, meaning the edge of the hole should be bare metal and not have paint on it. It'd be possible to replicate this look just by using a drill bit to clean out the hole after a car was painted. I know, I know... that's getting pretty picky. It's more of an observation than anything.
Quote from: 69_500 on November 29, 2007, 09:44:38 PM
So thats what it looked like a few months back. So Gene when is the next trip to Michigan to see the car again? It is winter time, and no car shows to attend on weekends, and you know me, I'm always up to seeing a Daytona. Heck this time I'd even go for 2 days instead of 1. :rotz:
Danny, I was actually set to leave out tomorrow late-morning, hit Chicago (to pick up the car hauler trailer I have paid for but haven't had time to go get :brickwall: ) and then see Vance on Saturday. I checked the weather, and they're predicting an ice storm for Chicago on Saturday afternoon, so I REALLY don't want to wreck the first time I pull the trailer. Might be next weekend, or I might even have to do a quick up-and-back during the week sometime depending on if there are any weather breaks forecasted for next weekend
I'll letya know though. Dave H. wants to come up again sometime, but I think he'd like to see some red on his next visit.
Here's a picture of the new Wing Wagon:
More inner fender shots
Yet more inner fender shots, including a related picture of the splash shields that will get freshened up before being reinstalled.
Some shots of the firewall. They're pretty close to being finished with this area, if it's not "officially" ready for paint as shown here.
A couple more shots showing the hood hinges a little closer.
Shock tower pictures...
Radiator Yoke shots:
I tried to take several shots of the fender scoop hole & mesh so that folks could see the jagged edge they left when cutting this in. Not exactly worried about precision, were they? :eek2:
More of the same area, although the first one is from underneath.
Some shots of the hood...
Here are some shots of the cowl/hood gap, plus one more of the hood/fender area
A couple of the cowl corners:
This shot is of particular importance to some of you guys. Early on in this thread I was asked if the shop was going to address the leaded seams at the corners of the windshield and other areas. Sure enough, they did indeed dig ALL of the lead out of the seams here, and welded the whole thing up solid. I'll have more to say about how they handled the window plug later on, but it was a similar type deal.
As was mentioned by others, this is an area very prone to cracking on B-bodies and is probably worth addressing on ANYBODY's project.
Here are some shots of the tailpanel area
One last shot of the tailpanel area, and then some shots of the decklid. I took many shots of the lid itself, and decklid weatherstrip channel - so here ya go...
More decklid shots... These are the original bolts, which look more like hardware store bolts than anything else. You'll hear a couple of different versions about what is "correct" for decklid bolts, but they're apt to have used about anything.
Some shots of the decklid edges, showing the curvature.
Here are a few pics of the weatherstrip channel area:
That last picture is a good tie-in to the next couple of pictures, showing the trunk compartment light bracket still partially attached to the original trunk weatherstrip channel / dutchman panel. The bracket was stamped as part of the whole piece, so it was not "attached" originally, although a reinforcement plate was added beneath the stamping for strength.
From what several of us have observed with these cars, Creative Industries apparently cut the bracket off of each Daytona with a sawzall or other cutoff tool. The piece they removed was (from what we can tell) normally re-attached to the new weatherstrip channel which was part of the rear window plug. The spot welds they used were pretty crude and poorly done, so you'll often find this piece missing. I won't go so far as to say EVERY Daytona had it's bracket reattached, but a lot of cars I've looked at had the bracket - or evidence of the bracket's initial installation - whether or not the car was equipped with the A01 Light Group or not. David Patik and others have seen cars that DID have the A01 light group that did NOT have a bracket, so there's no official / definitive answer on this subject.
For my car, you can very plainly see where the spot welds were on the weatherstrip channel, so my car did have a bracket attached even though it did not have the A01 light group. Who removed it, and why, remains a mystery since the bracket was gone long before I got the car. Could be it simply fell off from the poor welding job, or it could be that it was twisted off (with much cursing) after one of the owners removed a few inches of scalp while doing the limbo trying to get into or out of the trunk compartment. :shruggy:
We will cut off a bracket piece from another car, and crudely spot weld it in the same location as you can see in the pictures, to return the car to as-delivered condition.
More trunk compartment pictures, including the corners.
The first picture is of the area where the jack stud will be located. This time in the CORRECT location, which Creative Industries failed to do the first time around... :rotz:
The rest are more of the trunk compartment details, although the last one shows the area around the wheelwell where the seam of the quarterpanel patch used to be plainly visible. Hard to see now, iddnit??
The next two pictures are of the rear window plug area from underneath. The last two show the roof / window plug area that has been smoothed out. As with the seams by the windshield, the guys took ALL of the lead out of this area. The lead they used was prone to cracking, especially the lead that Creative Industries used since it had a lower melting point than the variety that Hamtramck's workers used. That fact probably contributed to many repaints on Aero cars over the years.
Anyway, Vance's guys removed all the lead and slowly/carefully welded the plug to the roof / sail panel solidly. After grinding off the excess and using filler to smooth it all out, the area is noticeably smoother with very little chance of ever having a crack develop. Much better than the original design, although I'm sure it was a time-consuming extra step.
The next pic is of the rear window channel, followed by a couple of pics of the A-Pillars
Several pictures of the roof here:
The first pic is of the underside of the roof, which still has a little surface rust on it. The last three are of the rear passenger compartment area.
These pictures are of the firewall & floorboard area. On the next visit I made (in October) I asked Vance's guys to go through and smooth out the floorboards. The pitting that they had left (and might be visible in some of these pics) would have been hidden by the carpet for the most part, but it bugged me to be taking every other part of the car back to such a smooth state but letting this go.
Here are a few pictures of the transmission. Vance had already cleaned the case up, but the humidity in the air (even in Michigan) was already causing some light surface rust to re-appear on the case. So, he painted up the outside of the case with DP40. This will NOT be the base for the final coating of the case, but it serves a purpose by keeping further rust from appearing.
A few miscellaneous pics, including one of the Engine "under wraps" still, the NOS fuel tank that Dave H. sent with the car when I got it, and the cylinder heads which are about 1/2 done with their porting/assembly work.
I don't know if the date stamping will show up in these smaller pics, but I had found the date code from the vibration dampner (if I remember, it was either 150 9 or 160 9). It constantly amazes me how Chrysler date-coded almost EVERYTHING. Why did they bother with the vibration dampner?? :rotz:
Well, that's pretty much all I have the sanity to post at the moment. I'll wrap up this batch with a few pictures of the new room I've built here in the shop. The guys at work have dubbed this the "Hemi House"...
poor little hemi charger sleeping all alone every night in that big room. :pity:
:hah:
Quote from: BigBlockSam on November 30, 2007, 12:21:13 AM
poor little hemi charger sleeping all alone every night in that big room. :pity:
It'll hopefully have company sometime soon!
Couple questions-
What hole in the driver inner fender are you talking about? I don't think I recall knowing that...
Was the car not media/soda/walnut blasted, and why? I ask because of the paint still hanging on under the quarter panel end caps.
Are the original Charger rear window molding clips now removed? Weren't those installed after paint, therefore should be black and not red?
Masterful restoration and my full respect--I'm nitpicking to further my knowledge.
Doug,
This is the hole we were kicking around. So far, we have ONLY found this hole on Daytonas (not C500s), and beyond that, the only unrestored Daytona I've seen without the hole is the aforementioned 287970.
I haven't honestly looked at any Superbirds for this specific detail. Have you noticed this hole on any 'Birds?
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 02:35:02 AM
Was the car not media/soda/walnut blasted, and why? I ask because of the paint still hanging on under the quarter panel end caps.
The car was media blasted, but for whatever reason they did not remove the end caps before sending it out for the blasting work. When it came back from the media blaster, Vance's guys removed the caps and the original paint is still there. They probably left it there just to tease me...
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 02:35:02 AM
Are the original Charger rear window molding clips now removed? Weren't those installed after paint, therefore should be black and not red?
The original Charger clips would indeed have been installed after paint, as were all the moulding clips like that. Unfortunately, the car isn't ready for paint, so I won't bust Vance's chops for having the clips still in place just yet. Not a bad observation to make though. I don't recall what color the clips were originally - I think the windshield moulding clips were a greenish color. Were the rear clips black? I'd have to look around at some other reference material to see.
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 02:35:02 AM
Masterful restoration and my full respect--I'm nitpicking to further my knowledge.
Thanks, and don't worry about nitpicking. If you read the thread from earlier on, you'll see that another DC.com member noticed that we had the wrong rear crossmember fuel filler hole shape. I'll gladly take any help I can get (and so will Vance, I'm sure).
:cheers:
totally awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
About the 'bird and the extra hole--I'd have to look. We've never had a NON wing b-body, so I don't know what's not there on the "regular" cars...
Our collective best guess is that the hole was intended to give some extra slack in the vacuum lines which are routed up & over the radiator yoke rather than going through the battery cooling hole as on a regular Charger. The factory's punched hole just to the left of the drilled hole (in the picture above) is all that should be present on any other '69 B-body. I'm not sure if they were punched on '70 B-bodies, since all Charger's headlights went to electrically operated. The 'Bird's use of the '69 vacuum actuator arrangement might have required the addition of a hole on the inner fender which was not drilled or punched on any other '70. In other words, there might only be one hole on a 'Bird, and none on any other '70.
:scratchchin:
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 12:19:30 PM
About the 'bird and the extra hole--I'd have to look. We've never had a NON wing b-body, so I don't know what's not there on the "regular" cars...
wing snob!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 12:19:30 PM
About the 'bird and the extra hole--I'd have to look. We've never had a NON wing b-body, so I don't know what's not there on the "regular" cars...
Guess my '69 C500 is a "regular" car.... It's a Non-nosecone car................. I'll have to look on Dana to see if she has a hole there................
Hemigeno, I think you better check the trac-lok on the rear of your charger, I see only a single tire burnout on the floor of your "hemihouse"
Quote from: FJMG on November 30, 2007, 02:25:15 PM
Hemigeno, I think you better check the trac-lok on the rear of your charger, I see only a single tire burnout on the floor of your "hemihouse"
Hi Robert!
I was wondering when someone would question the black marks in the room, as I wasn't actually cutting with the R/T inside the shop. They're actually from a fork truck that we putter around with, and apparently Cat trucks don't have SureGrips :P
I'll send ya a PM later on if I get the chance...
Quote from: hemi68charger on November 30, 2007, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: pettybird on November 30, 2007, 12:19:30 PM
About the 'bird and the extra hole--I'd have to look. We've never had a NON wing b-body, so I don't know what's not there on the "regular" cars...
Guess my '69 C500 is a "regular" car.... It's a Non-nosecone car................. I'll have to look on Dana to see if she has a hole there................
Troy, we checked Danny's & Jerry Narramore's cars and none of them had the hole. That helped reinforce my theory about vacuum line slack. I'd highly suspect that the hole is not there on any C500 since the need for vacuum lines went away. Still, it'd be interesting to confirm that.
Gene, what are the two white square openings on the back wall for? HVAC? :shruggy:
My bro-in-law has a place like that for his Harleys set up in the corner of his shed. Its nice to have to keep the dust and dirt out.
Quote from: PocketThunder on November 30, 2007, 03:10:43 PM
Gene, what are the two white square openings on the back wall for? HVAC? :shruggy:
My bro-in-law has a place like that for his Harleys set up in the corner of his shed. Its nice to have to keep the dust and dirt out.
That's my indirect Carbon Monoxide ventilation system. The white louvers/covers are some 400cfm exhaust fans I have piped to the outside. I positioned the fans so that the tailpipes exit directly in front of the exhaust fans. That way when I need to start the cars up for a bit I can turn the exhaust fans on to keep from fumigating the place - or more specifically, from fumigating ME...
I don't plan on letting the cars idle or run forever in there, as that wouldn't be too safe. However, I don't like starting them up without letting them at least get up to operating temperature. Being able to let them run inside without having to pull them outside will make it easier to keep the cars limbered up while also keeping condensation inside the engine from becoming a problem.
The HVAC unit in between the exhaust fans is a left-over piece from a hotel project (it was free!). It should be enough to heat/cool the 900sf room just fine, and the dehumidifier off to the side will keep the moisture down during the in-between periods when neither heat nor cooling is needed. The cabinets were free too (demo'd them from another construction project). Yeah, I can be cheap too... :icon_smile_big:
I figured they were all salvaged pieces. i like the swing doors in front, i'm guessing they were take outs also?
Quote from: PocketThunder on November 30, 2007, 04:07:39 PM
I figured they were all salvaged pieces. i like the swing doors in front, i'm guessing they were take outs also?
thats an office not a garage
Quote from: PocketThunder on November 30, 2007, 04:07:39 PM
I figured they were all salvaged pieces. i like the swing doors in front, i'm guessing they were take outs also?
Unfortunately, I couldn't salvage everything. Wish I could have, but it wasn't going to work out that way and still get what I wanted - which was a 30x30 clearspan with 50psf storage on top. The doors were special order, but the company I ordered them from knew what they were for and didn't charge me too much. They're a pair of 4'-0"x7'-0" doors which gives me about 9" on either side of the doorhandles when the cars are going through the opening. Enough room, but not enough to feel real comfortable. I wanted something that you could see through, and some sort of garage door or coiling shutter/door just did not fit the room as well. Anything wider on a standard leaf door would have made it too heavy for the hinges though.
Ah so the parking area is coming along as well as the restoration of the Daytona. Gene I looked at 2 other unrestored Charger 500's since we first kicked around the whole extra hole in the inner fender. NEITHER one of them had a 2nd hole, just the 1 from the factory, just like every other 69 Charger that I've looked at since then. I even went and looked at a Daytona that is local that had a paint job applied in the early 70's but nothing else and it has the 2nd hole just like yours. As of yet, the count is 0 Daytonas without the hole, and 0 other cars with the hole.
Quote from: 69_500 on November 30, 2007, 05:43:42 PM
As of yet, the count is 0 Daytonas without the hole, and 0 other cars with the hole.
Make that 1 Daytona w/o the hole. The pic below is of 287970, but its vacuum hoses are NOT routed over the radiator yoke. Instead, they are ran through a separate hole drilled in the yoke with a very crude grommet. A very strong argument for the early/pre-production status of this car...
Resto looks to be going quite nicely.
There is something missing in your new home for the cars though.What about the truck?
Is it not going to feel left out?
If it starts to give you trouble you will know it's mad at you.LOL
Quote from: UFO on November 30, 2007, 05:50:13 PM
Resto looks to be going quite nicely.
There is something missing in your new home for the cars though.What about the truck?
Is it not going to feel left out?
If it starts to give you trouble you will know it's mad at you.LOL
Thanks, Brian. Yeah, the truck will probaly get jealous. At the moment, it is parked directly outside the HemiHouse looking through the glass at the R/T. Kinda like a hungry orphan looking through the window of the Bakery... Maybe that explains why I'm having oil ring problems with the truck's engine again? :shruggy: I guess I'll have to go have a talk with Ol' Red and let 'im know that the alternative is to be parked outside all winter long. Might straighten everything out?? :P
Well if your truck is that jealous Gene, there is always room here at my house for it.
Yeah I forgot about the odd ball car without the hole. But then again is it really a Daytona? Just kidding, I think it is, but others well everyone has their opinions.
Showed my wife the photo's of your hemihouse, and she wanted to know why you didn't paint he walls in there R4 red or HEMI orange.
The honest-to-goodness reason I didn't go with a Hi-Impact color or some other retina-scorching hue was because I wanted the cars to stick out not the room. Besides, if I went with V2 the Daytona wouldn't match; and vice versa.
Maybe I shoulda went with F8... :scratchchin:
Nah.
I think she was being a wise guy because I painted 2 of the 4 walls in my garage HEMI Orange. I'm planning on drawing a Charger 500 and a Daytona on the other two walls so they remained white.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 30, 2007, 05:47:49 PM
Quote from: 69_500 on November 30, 2007, 05:43:42 PM
As of yet, the count is 0 Daytonas without the hole, and 0 other cars with the hole.
Make that 1 Daytona w/o the hole. The pic below is of 287970, but its vacuum hoses are NOT routed over the radiator yoke. Instead, they are ran through a separate hole drilled in the yoke with a very crude grommet. A very strong argument for the early/pre-production status of this car...
Put me down for "without" the hole. :yesnod:
My Charger 500 & Daytona fit the pattern...
B5 Blue Charger 500 - No additional hole
R4 Red Daytona - Additional hole
Your vacuum line routing theory makes sense to me Geno!
Allen
The hole for your Daytona looks much cleaner than some of the other ones that I've been looking at since Gene first asked about it. Some of them look really crude, and sloppy. Like they weren't drilled out, but rather punched out with a punch.
Looking good Geno. I hope to see the car when you get it done. Do you think it will be done by car show season? What shows will you be going to this spring? I'd like to come see the Hemi car, even If the Daytona isn't done. The truck would be nice to as well.
Thanks, Lincoln!
I chatted with Vance on Friday, and he expects the car to be done "this spring", although that still leaves a pretty wide range of time. You're welcome to stop by and visit anytime, whether your Dad can make it then or not.
As far as which shows I make it to next year with the Daytona, I really hope to make Carlisle and the 'Nats. Neither have responded back to my request for entry into some of the upper-level judging categories they have, but perhaps there is still time. I'll still hit MonsterMopar too, as usual. The local shows around here probably won't appreciate the level of detail we've gone to on the car, as most "judges" would consider the overall restoration to be pretty sloppy/shoddy - even though it's intended to look just like it was when brand-new at the dealership.
That is true about the local judges. I know a few of them, and your right they would not appreciate the "as manufactured" details on it. That sounds good about coming down to the shop. I wouldn't make it to any of the mopar shows. That is a little to far for me.
some of us could careless about judges , no offense geno show it some for fun too!!!!!
You mean the Nationals hasn't said anything about allowing it to be judged? I'm assuming they are wating to see photo's of it after its completed before they give any answer right? Or are they just full up with wing cars and only accepting judging slips for minivans :nana:
I just wanna see it once its done, so I can stare at all the little things.
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2007, 05:42:32 PM
only accepting judging slips for minivans
Boy, iddn't that the truth... :flame:
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2007, 05:42:32 PM
I just wanna see it once its done, so I can stare at all the little things.
I'll be staring at a whole lot of little things on it, and I'm sure I'll have a thousand questions for Vance even after he's finished with it. "What on earth is THAT for??" *gasp* "Did they really do THAT??" It will be a constant learning experience for me too.
Quote from: moparstuart on December 11, 2007, 03:52:13 PM
some of us could careless about judges , no offense geno show it some for fun too!!!!!
Stu, I'm sure I'll take it to some local shows too, but I'm also sure I'll get more than a few comments about the crappy overspray, etc. It's sorta like having an orange '69 Charger (even an authentic Hemicar). Take it out in public, and let the General Lee remarks commence.
No, kid, I have not jumped it and don't intend to.
No, you cannot slide across the hood.
No, my name is not Bo. Or Luke.
No, I do not have a decal kit bought for it, nor do I have any intention of putting a CB antenna on the decklid.
will be replaced with
Yes, that's the way they did it at Creative Industries.
Creative Industries - an outside vendor hired by Chrysler to do the Daytona conversions.
No, they did not build the Batmobile too.
No, they did not all come with Hemi's. Or 440 Hemi 6packs.
Creative Indu - nevermind.
You're right, it looks awful.
I'll have much more fun driving it, but that'll be curtailed the first year or two - not because I'm scared of it, but because it's just flat too much trouble to clean it all up again. After I've made the shows I want to, I'll relax a bit and enjoy the car for what it was meant to do - cruise (or at least that's the plan).
Borgia?
Quote from: hemigeno on December 11, 2007, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2007, 05:42:32 PM
only accepting judging slips for minivans
Boy, iddn't that the truth... :flame:
Quote from: 69_500 on December 11, 2007, 05:42:32 PM
I just wanna see it once its done, so I can stare at all the little things.
I'll be staring at a whole lot of little things on it, and I'm sure I'll have a thousand questions for Vance even after he's finished with it. "What on earth is THAT for??" *gasp* "Did they really do THAT??" It will be a constant learning experience for me too.
Quote from: moparstuart on December 11, 2007, 03:52:13 PM
some of us could careless about judges , no offense geno show it some for fun too!!!!!
Stu, I'm sure I'll take it to some local shows too, but I'm also sure I'll get more than a few comments about the crappy overspray, etc. It's sorta like having an orange '69 Charger (even an authentic Hemicar). Take it out in public, and let the General Lee remarks commence.
No, kid, I have not jumped it and don't intend to.
No, you cannot slide across the hood.
No, my name is not Bo. Or Luke.
No, I do not have a decal kit bought for it, nor do I have any intention of putting a CB antenna on the decklid.
will be replaced with
Yes, that's the way they did it at Creative Industries.
Creative Industries - an outside vendor hired by Chrysler to do the Daytona conversions.
No, they did not build the Batmobile too.
No, they did not all come with Hemi's. Or 440 Hemi 6packs.
Creative Indu - nevermind.
You're right, it looks awful.
I'll have much more fun driving it, but that'll be curtailed the first year or two - not because I'm scared of it, but because it's just flat too much trouble to clean it all up again. After I've made the shows I want to, I'll relax a bit and enjoy the car for what it was meant to do - cruise (or at least that's the plan).
yeah your damned if you do , or damned if you dont if you over restore it they would complain also , it's your car do it your way
I'm still staring at the photo's I took of it the last time I saw your Daytona. Each time I look, I see something else that I didnt notice before. Some body markings, and stamps. Then i try to figure them out. Its a never ending process isn't it.
I am so tired of General Lee stuff. We were at a show with
the daytona and some space cadet kept calling it the General Lee on steroids, I finally asked him to leave. Brent
Quote from: notabird on December 12, 2007, 06:14:47 PM
I am so tired of General Lee stuff. We were at a show with
the daytona and some space cadet kept calling it the General Lee on steroids, I finally asked him to leave. Brent
My LimeLite SuperBird at the 1978 Phoenix World of Wheels show. The 'Bird was fresh out of the body shop(less than a week), and I hadn't had time to put any decals on yet.
Kid at show: Dad, look! It's a Chevelle with a Corvette front end!
Dad: Son, I think it's a Plymouth.
Kid: No, Dad, it's a Chevelle with a Corvette front end!
Me: 'SIGH!' <rattle of me shaking head heard clear across exibition hall.> :shruggy:
I'll probably be at Borgia with my body man. He's got an '89 Chevy swb regular cab. We will be redoing starting this weekend. So I will be at a few local shows with him. I've been helping him on his '56 Chevy post as well.
Quote from: abebummy26 on December 13, 2007, 09:34:33 PM
I'll probably be at Borgia with my body man. He's got an '89 Chevy swb regular cab. We will be redoing starting this weekend. So I will be at a few local shows with him. I've been helping him on his '56 Chevy post as well.
Lincoln,
I don't know if the car will be ready by the Borgia show - isn't it usually in early/mid May? Even if it was done by then, I don't know if that's the first show I'd want to take it to. That's the same group of judges which constantly disses my 2-ton truck because it has dual 4-bbls on it. Yeah, I know it wasn't built that way, but it's so much cooler that way than having a 2bbl and an oil bath air cleaner... :coolgleamA: My dad and his Model A buddies like going to that show though. The '56 sounds like a neat project, and there usually are some nice hotrods at that show.
Quote from: learical1 on December 13, 2007, 12:26:19 AM
Quote from: notabird on December 12, 2007, 06:14:47 PM
I am so tired of General Lee stuff. We were at a show with
the daytona and some space cadet kept calling it the General Lee on steroids, I finally asked him to leave. Brent
My LimeLite SuperBird at the 1978 Phoenix World of Wheels show. The 'Bird was fresh out of the body shop(less than a week), and I hadn't had time to put any decals on yet.
Kid at show: Dad, look! It's a Chevelle with a Corvette front end!
Dad: Son, I think it's a Plymouth.
Kid: No, Dad, it's a Chevelle with a Corvette front end!
Me: 'SIGH!' <rattle of me shaking head heard clear across exibition hall.> :shruggy:
Bruce, at least the dad got close with what the car is - but I hear ya on the dumb comments.
I can just imagine the conversation that Brent & Sherri had with the misguided GennyLee fan, and I only hope that it wasn't at the Pigeon Forge invitation-only show you guys were at. That show seemed like it would attract spectators with a little more couth. (BTW, congrats again on being invited :2thumbs: )
Yeah Borgia is always memorial day weekend. That's just dumb about your 2 ton truck, but I can't say I'm extremely surprised.
Gene, I think that guy was at Springfield,Il. The crowd at the Forge Show was very nice and most were well informed. Great show.Thanks by the way.
Quote from: hemigeno on December 11, 2007, 06:14:29 PM
No, kid, I have not jumped it and don't intend to.
No, you cannot slide across the hood.
No, my name is not Bo. Or Luke.
No, I do not have a decal kit bought for it, nor do I have any intention of putting a CB antenna on the decklid.
will be replaced with
Yes, that's the way they did it at Creative Industries.
Creative Industries - an outside vendor hired by Chrysler to do the Daytona conversions.
No, they did not build the Batmobile too.
No, they did not all come with Hemi's. Or 440 Hemi 6packs.
Creative Indu - nevermind.
You're right, it looks awful.
That's just about right, too. :smilielol:
Just wanted to pop in & say that even though I haven't posted much, I'm enjoying the progress reports on your resto. It's looking great! :cheers:
Love the Hemi room too! The idea of your own private little show room is too cool. :coolgleamA:
Thanks, Grant! Calling the HemiHouse a private showroom might be a tad much though - when I start charging for admission or selling souveniers, then it's a showroom :D
Hmmmm :scratchchin: HemiHouseTM :scratchchin:
Nah...
I heard from Vance this week, and they just about have the nosecone cleaned/straightened up and fitted to the front clip. He said they took a ton of pictures during the disassembly of the nosecone for reference, and he's supposedly sending them to me on a disc. I'll post them once I get the disc, since that should be some great info for understanding how all the pieces fit together.
It seems every time I catch my breath at work and could sneak out for a day, the weather turns nasty up north or 'round here. Figures.
Hey Gene, weekends in january and February are good ones to go to Michigan. Nothing like freezing rain on the drive up is there? Oh wait that was last year.
Quote from: hemigeno on December 20, 2007, 04:13:27 PM
I heard from Vance this week, and they just about have the nosecone cleaned/straightened up and fitted to the front clip. He said they took a ton of pictures during the disassembly of the nosecone for reference, and he's supposedly sending them to me on a disc. I'll post them once I get the disc, since that should be some great info for understanding how all the pieces fit together.
Looking forward to a full set of the nosecone disassembly pictures... I will need them when I try to put my Daytona nose together... say in 20 years or so... :eek2: :rotz: :P
Allen
Allen, no disc/pictures yet. If I can get a little more caught up at work on Monday (when I hope the phone does not ring much) I might try to head up there on Thusday or Friday. I'll not only have another batch of my own pictures to post then, but I'll nab the nosecone disassembly pictures then for certain. Oh, and you're just getting warmed up with this C500 project. You'll be on a roll and won't be able to stop until all your stable is standing tall again...
Of course, my raising the mere possibility of a trip ensures a severe winter storm will hit SW Michigan right around then. My apologies to the folks who live in that area (and to Danny, if you decide to head north as well) :P
Hmmm, your thinking of heading to Michigan this coming weekend? I don't think that we have any plans for this Saturday at all. I'd be up for a trip, but couldn't make it until Saturday.
Danny,
I am mostly caught up here at work and plan to take Friday off for a road trip. Plan "A" is to hit northwest Chicago about 9am, stop by Vance's about 2pm very briefly, and then try to dash across the state to visit our favorite NW Detroit resident for a time. If things go as planned, I should be back at Vance's shop by around 10am on Saturday morning. I'll try and give you a call tomorrow from the road to confirm that schedule.
If Steve L. or any other guys want to stop by Vance's on Saturday, drop me a PM and I'll set things up.
Hopefully lots of progress & disassembly/reference pictures to post after that...
Quote from: hemigeno on January 03, 2008, 11:56:40 AM
our favorite NW Detroit resident for a time.
:shruggy: Larry lives in New Jersey, doesnt he?
that OTHER favorite then... :lol:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 03, 2008, 03:17:46 PM
that OTHER favorite then... :lol:
I wish we had the member map so i could narrow it down. :scratchchin:
Hmmmmm, man you sure you make it a short stop there in Detroit? Last time it was about 17 hours and we didn't even make a dent in the stuff? I'd love to get ahold of him, and just plan a 2 day trip to go back up there and snoop through everything. I spent most of the day we were up there just in a daze in amazement at what all he had. Then he would start in on a story, and next thing I know it would be an hour later.
I could listen to his stories all day and then some. The way my mind is now I'll be lucky to remember my name and address at his age. Last time we spoke we delved into the 68 SS cars, he said he felt like a teenager again.
Even though it appeared clutterd or at least that is how my wife would describe it, HE knew exactly where to look for anything. Definately has a great mind for remembering details.
OK, I finally have a few minutes here and will try to post a few pictures from last weekend's foray into AutoRestorationHeaven (a/k/a Vance's shop)
These first shots just show the overall look of the car from the front. If you look at the last pictures I shot/posted from back in October, not a whole lot has changed in some respects. They've done a lot of spit & polish work on the body which takes time to get absolutely perfect, but doesn't have the ooh-ahh visible effect that earlier stages had.
More general pictures, which honestly don't show too much "progress" unless you get up close.
Here are a few shots that show the work they've put into making the margins uniform. NOT an easy task, as some of you guys know all too well...
More margin pictures...
Other door's margins:
nice gap's
Some hood margin shots
Quote from: moparstuart on January 11, 2008, 06:07:24 PM
nice gap's
Thanks, Stuart - I thought they're turning out nice too.
I do not have the patience to be a bodyman. I can spend half a day fitting a single wood door to a frame (I was a carpenter back when I worked in the field), but smoothing out sheet metal and fitting it together like that would drive me bananas. Guess it's all what you get used to...
I tried to take a few close-ups of the hood scoop leading edges. This was not a simple scoop they molded - the front edge has to conform to the shape of the fender's topside, which is sloped higher at the outer edge than near the hood edge. Weird shape, and I don't know if the pictures I took did it justice, but these injection-molded pieces actually fit the fenders quite nicely. Incidentally, Jo-Ad Industries (the original maker of the scoops) is still in business today. Think they still have the molds for the scoops yet? :shruggy:
I took a few pictures of the area around the window plug. Larry/daytonalo has replicated many of these same features around his window plug, but I figured I'd post a few more of this area.
Wow I'm impressed really starting to look nice, Gene. I've got an eye for body work, and am I impressed. Better gaps than she left the factory with. :nana: :hah: :lol: ;)
Here are a couple of shots showing the A-Pillar's original deflector mounting holes that remain visible.
Quote from: abebummy26 on January 11, 2008, 06:21:38 PM
Wow I'm impressed really starting to look nice, Gene. I've got an eye for body work, and am I impressed.
Thanks, Lincoln!
Quote from: abebummy26 on January 11, 2008, 06:21:38 PM
Better gaps than she left the factory with.
Very sad, but oh-so-very-true... :rotz:
That's all the pics I have time for at the moment (gotta take my 9 year old to basketball practice). I'll post a bunch of pictures I took of the nosecone, brackets, etc. next week. There's also an issue we're kicking around regarding which color to paint the front chin spoiler, believe it or not...
Gene. I would also like to say that its looking great! Just one question that you may or may not have an answer to. Is that poly surfacer on the daytona or regular primer surfacer? Im just curious from a bodyman stand point.
Looking great Gene!... Got me ooh-aahing! :2thumbs:
It is starting to look like a car again with a "crisp" look to it, while my C500 just went the other way... :P It will get better though!
I wish a wing car pro like Vance had a resto business down here, but I am trying to get my resto guy Joe up to "wing car" speed! :icon_smile_big: He passed the plug removal test with "flying" colors... :lol:
Allen
Thinking of painting the chin spoiler black are you Gene?
Car looks like its coming along great. You were right when we talked on the phone, not a whole lot different as far as cosmetic appearance since the last trip. I will make it up there in the next month or so, or the next time you go. I wanna go see it again in person, and :drool5: Maybe even swing over to Detroit again.
shaping up now :yesnod: looks good :2thumbs: :popcrn:
looking good c :2thumbs: man you got to be excited! .
Nice progress Geno :2thumbs:
Just like the engineers motto. fast, cheap and easy, pick two of three. :Twocents:
Quote from: PocketThunder on January 12, 2008, 12:10:59 AM
Nice progress Geno :2thumbs:
Just like the engineers motto. fast, cheap and easy, pick two of three. :Twocents:
My grandpa always said "If engineers had to work on the stuff they designed everything would be much simpler."
Nice progress Geno :2thumbs:
Quote from: 1hot68 on January 11, 2008, 06:29:34 PM
Gene. I would also like to say that its looking great! Just one question that you may or may not have an answer to. Is that poly surfacer on the daytona or regular primer surfacer? Im just curious from a bodyman stand point.
Brian,
You've asked me a question which will reemphasize the fact that I know very little about bodywork and the materials used (did I mention I'm a carpenter by trade?? :P ).
The primary materials the guys have used so far are:
>>
DP40 Sealer (w/ DP401 Catalyst)
>>
K36 Primer (w/ K201 Catalyst)
>> The pictures I'm about to post of the nosecone will show a black primer, which is
DP90 (w/ DP 401 Catalyst).
Now what those designators mean and whether that information answers your question, I honestly don't know. Did I mention I'm a carpenter?? I can always ask a specific question of Vance if you'd like, as he's fairly used to being peppered with questions when I talk to him.
:2thumbs:
Hey from the way he was answering questions the time I went up there, I don't think he minds being asked questions. And if he can't think of it right off the top of his head (which was the case in probably 8 out of 10 questions we had), he has the resources to get you the right answer.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 14, 2008, 07:26:36 PM
Quote from: 1hot68 on January 11, 2008, 06:29:34 PM
Gene. I would also like to say that its looking great! Just one question that you may or may not have an answer to. Is that poly surfacer on the daytona or regular primer surfacer? Im just curious from a bodyman stand point.
Brian,
You've asked me a question which will reemphasize the fact that I know very little about bodywork and the materials used (did I mention I'm a carpenter by trade?? :P ).
The primary materials the guys have used so far are:
>> DP40 Sealer (w/ DP401 Catalyst)
>> K36 Primer (w/ K201 Catalyst)
>> The pictures I'm about to post of the nosecone will show a black primer, which is DP90 (w/ DP 401 Catalyst).
Now what those designators mean and whether that information answers your question, I honestly don't know. Did I mention I'm a carpenter?? I can always ask a specific question of Vance if you'd like, as he's fairly used to being peppered with questions when I talk to him.
:2thumbs:
None of the products you've mention are poly surfacer, not that thats bad ,I was just curios.
The products listed are very good products infact!
If you wouldn't mind asking Vance what his thoughts are on poly surfacer Id be interested in hearing his views on the stuff?
Are you a carpenter by chance?? :icon_smile_question: :icon_smile_question: :hah:
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on January 11, 2008, 09:44:27 PM
Looking great Gene!... Got me ooh-aahing! :2thumbs:
It is starting to look like a car again with a "crisp" look to it, while my C500 just went the other way... :P It will get better though!
I wish a wing car pro like Vance had a resto business down here, but I am trying to get my resto guy Joe up to "wing car" speed! :icon_smile_big: He passed the plug removal test with "flying" colors... :lol:
Allen
Thanks Allen!
I understand exactly what you're saying about having to educate a resto guy in Aero car "restoration etiquette". That's the biggest reason I didn't go with Steve Been, one of the more talented & picky restorers nationwide whose shop is only about 35-45 minutes from my house. Steve is a GREAT guy and would have made a valiant attempt to replicate every possible detail as closely as possible. However, my car had a little too much pitting/rust/repaints to rely on it as a reference standard. Vance just has too much experience with Aero cars (and specifically, Daytonas). I have learned so much just from talking to Vance about the various details and how the other Daytonas he's worked on looked. It really helped seal the deal for me that two of the Daytonas he's restored were low-mileage untouched cars which were a goldmine of resto details.
Your 500 looks like it is in capable hands, and should still go pretty smoothly with you being right there to give them some Aero-specific direction. I'm jealous that they'll actually be able to do your media blasting in the middle of winter. That shut my car's progress down for about 2-1/2 months last year... :brickwall:
Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2008, 07:30:39 PM
Hey from the way he was answering questions the time I went up there, I don't think he minds being asked questions. And if he can't think of it right off the top of his head (which was the case in probably 8 out of 10 questions we had), he has the resources to get you the right answer.
:iagree:
Vance is a walking Mopar-detail encyclopedia, and what he doesn't recall he probably has a document or picture stashed away somewhere to refresh his memory.
Quote from: 1hot68 on January 14, 2008, 07:42:25 PM
None of the products you've mention are poly surfacer, not that thats bad ,I was just curios.
The products listed are very good products infact!
If you wouldn't mind asking Vance what his thoughts are on poly surfacer Id be interested in hearing his views on the stuff?
Sure, I'll try and remember to ask him. Is there a particular Brand Name or Trade Name that would identify exactly what product your curious about, or is Poly Surfacer enough for him to zero in?
Quote from: 1hot68 on January 14, 2008, 07:42:25 PM
Are you a carpenter by chance?? :icon_smile_question: :icon_smile_question: :hah:
Now whatever gave you that idea??
Quote from: 69_500 on January 11, 2008, 10:13:40 PM
Thinking of painting the chin spoiler black are you Gene?
Long story, which I'll get into a little later on when the pictures are posted. But, the short answer to the question is "Yes".
Quote from: 69_500 on January 11, 2008, 10:13:40 PM
Car looks like its coming along great. You were right when we talked on the phone, not a whole lot different as far as cosmetic appearance since the last trip. I will make it up there in the next month or so, or the next time you go. I wanna go see it again in person, and :drool5:
Thanks Danny, I'm thinking that the next trip up I'll be seeing red. R4 Red, that is.
Quote from: 69_500 on January 11, 2008, 10:13:40 PM
Maybe even swing over to Detroit again.
Pack a lunch. Maybe supper & breakfast too... I was there until after 3am, but it was worth every second of sleep I lost.
Carpenter?????? OOOOOHHHHHH! I thought you said car painter!
Quote from: tan top on January 11, 2008, 10:52:21 PM
shaping up now :yesnod: looks good :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Thanks, tan top!
Quote from: BigBlockSam on January 11, 2008, 11:44:48 PM
looking good c :2thumbs: man you got to be excited! .
Thanks, Rene - looking forward to seeing progress pics on the DreamTona too!
Quote from: PocketThunder on January 12, 2008, 12:10:59 AM
Nice progress Geno :2thumbs:
Just like the engineers motto. fast, cheap and easy, pick two of three. :Twocents:
Isn't that the truth. :lol:
Quote from: The70RT on January 12, 2008, 11:06:11 AM
Nice progress Geno :2thumbs:
Thanks a bunch, and I hope there's some more drastic progress pictures to come in the near future too. Some of these don't really reflect the amount of work that has truly been performed, and if nothing else it goes to show that even the professionals have to put a lot of time in to get things just right.
:cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: FJMG on January 14, 2008, 08:20:37 PM
Carpenter?????? OOOOOHHHHHH! I thought you said car painter!
You'd quickly figure out what I meant if you saw anything I tried to paint... :smilielol:
Alrighty, here's a few more of the pictures from the 5th...
I took several shots of the nosecone, which is now in primer and getting close to being ready to fit on the car. The whole thing has been sandblasted and thoroughly cleaned up, and a good deal of time was taken to straighten out the metal to make it look right.
More nosecone shots. You can see that they took the time to straighten out and smooth-finish all of the metal tabs & edges, which goes along with the level of finish they've done everywhere else on the car.
More interior detail & edge shots. I was trying to show that the edge of the nosecone is anything but straight, although that may not have been conveyed the best in the shot.
Some shots of the headlight buckets. Mine weren't just horribly rusted/pitted, which is somewhat of a rarity.
I tried to take some closeups of the holes for the rivinuts which mount the spoiler to the nosecone. The interesting thing here is the amount of filler that some areas of the nosecone required to make it smooth. They were not trying to take any shortcuts by using filler to make it smooth, but the metal wants to oilcan making it next-to-impossible to make it smooth just with the hammer & dolly.
Some more spoiler rivinut hole closeups
A few pictures of the headlight brackets/frames...
Z-brackets... No fiberglass here!
Headlight pods, and the nosecone mounting brackets/braces (aren't these sometimes called crash bars??). You'll notice a little bit of pitting still remains on the brackets. That is almost out of character with the rest of the car's finish, but this pitting won't show since the pitted side actually faces the framerails.
Grille screen and frame. The original manufacturer of this grille screen material is still in business, and they can still provide the exact pattern from back in '69. In the past, Vance has had to make a template to radius-bend the metal screen in the correct profile, since it is not a 90 degree angle. Right now, he plans to re-use my original grille but there is a lot of work yet to do to it in order to make it look good. If that proves to be too much, we'll get a replacement grille. If you look close, you can see some of the perforations are bent/cut around the perimeter. This was done to clear the mounting studs or screws when the grille was originally installed. Sorry for the blurriness of the last picture - I left it in here because it helps show that 1/2 of the grille frame was mounted with studs, the other 1/2 with screws.
The first pic shows the bracket which secures the lower valance to the nosecone. The next two show the headlight bucket end pieces, and the last shows the top of the nosecone / grille opening.
One of the more interesting things Vance and I discussed when I was there was what to do with the front chin spoiler. Conventional wisdom is that the spoilers are "supposed" to be painted body color. Mine had some evidence of red paint on the spoiler, but mostly black paint showing. Jim McCauley's F5 survivor Daytona (which was sold at the same dealership as mine) also had a black-painted chin spoiler, and both of our cars had the somewhat unusual touch of black-painted fender scoops. It was clear that the fender scoops were painted black over the top of the body color, and I had always assumed the chin spoiler was the same way - probably painted black at the dealership.
Another discovery we made last year when they first started working on the car was that it had been partially repainted at least twice, and that neither of those repaints included taking any previous layers of paint off. While Vance and I were examining the spoiler a little over a week ago, we noticed that the R4 paint that I had always assumed was the "correct" color for the spoiler was in fact only overspray from one of the repaints. We carefully sanded down through the layers of paint on my spoiler in several places to see what the paint strata looked like. Here is what we found: The very first layer on top of the aluminum was a greenish primer, followed by a layer of black, another layer of red oxide primer, and a second layer of black - which bore a rough texture which resembles Organosol. That might not be too important of a detail, but combined with Vance's experience with Daytonas, mine makes the third Daytona which he has seen whose original spoiler bore NO traces of body-color paint (only black).
My car makes the third Daytona he has seen whose latch tray was coated on the topside with a textured black paint exactly resembling Organosol (meaning it probably was). Mine happens to be the only one he's seen which had all of these traits PLUS the unusual characteristic of having no blackout paint sprayed inside the nosecone or on the latch tray mounting brace which was spotwelded to the radiator yoke. There are bound to be others that bore these characteristics also, but "conventional" wisdom in the world of Daytona restorations says to finish a car with a particular painting pattern.
Here is another strong argument for painting the spoiler black on at least some cars... Below are pictures of the original spoiler taken from Chris Sauer's Daytona. That was a 16,000 mile untouched original car. They replaced the spoiler with a new/different one Chris had purchased, and Vance had kept the original just because he figured someday he'd need to prove what was on Chris' car originally. One noticeable difference is that there are only two layers of paint - one greenish primer layer and one of the same Organosol-like black. At the time (back in 1995), Vance did not feel like he had enough evidence to support painting Chris' spoiler back in black so he followed standard practices and painted the replacement spoiler red.
So, what does the DC.com Court of Public Opinion have to say - should we say "Taheck with the experts - paint it black", or do you think it should go back in body color?
I'm leaning towards black, but I am interested in what other folks have to say. It could be that there is some connection to having a black stripe to having a black chin spoiler, since 100% of the cars that Vance and I have seen with this treatment were also equipped with a black tailstripe/wing...
:shruggy: :scope:
I vote black chin spoiler. :Twocents:
Paul
in St. Paul
Gene , This may help you or just may add another potention twist.
The front spoiler was in the trunk for dealer install.At least in the photo`s taken at creative there`s no spoiler attached.
Seams like a easy problem spot if the spoilers were body color.Green spoiler in a black car`s trunk etc.
If they were all black it would be a no brainer just put the pce in the trunk.
Since there is no evidence to prove yours was red I would be inclined to go black.
If it were replaced at some point due to curb crunching or whatever,I think there would be some bending at the mounting points.
Looking good, Geno! :2thumbs:
I've been following along the last few days :popcrn:
Taking notes :icon_smile_cool:
Saving pictures :scope:
Oh, And I'd go black on the spoiler :Twocents: ;)
more good progress going on there (Hemigeno) :popcrn: :yesnod: awesome stuff :2thumbs:
Gene,
to quote the Rolling Stones
"I want to see it painted, painted,
Black as night, Black as coal." :D
Lookin' Good Geno !!!!! Man, she's going to be SO SO SO SO SO SO SO Sweet............
that nose is a thing of beauty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks everyone, it is inching along and I'm as anxious to see it in paint & back together as anyone.
Brian/UFO, you're right on about the spoiler being in the trunk and there's paperwork to back that up besides the photograpic evidence of the cars on the car hauler. My guess is that Creative could have used different procedures at different times. Just because mine & others were treated a certain way doesn't mean that ALL cars should follow that pattern. There probably are untouched cars and/or cars with DayOne photos showing a body-color chin spoiler, perhaps even cars with black stripes. The key is, if you have enough indicators to show how a particular car was when new, it might be more appropriate to follow the car's actual historical pattern.
Vance and I are both people who don't mind bucking trends, so some of these little details probably intrigue us more than others.
Any more opinions to chime in? I might start another thread with a poll so we can see what the cumulative DC.com thoughts are.
Thanks again for the comments - the whole reason for posting all this info is so that you guys can see the inner workings of the whole restoration rather than just the before & after photos. I don't know about y'all, but I've learned a TON of stuff just from seeing everything taken apart and how they are going about refinishing it. Hopefully some other folks can do the same.
:scratchchin: if a black spoiler came off your Daytona , & it looks like it has not had previous damage like (UFO) said , then if t were me i would paint it black :yesnod: .
Black would be my suggestion.
1. It would be different which in my opinion is always good :yesnod:.
2. I think it would look better.
3. It would be correct for this car so it appears.
Oh if i make another trip to Detriot I'll defiantely be packing a lunch/supper and or taking him to eat at his restaurant. So this time you didn't get out of there until 3 am huh? Not bad, considering it was around 7 pm when you got there wasn't it?
As far as the chin spoiler goes. Hmmmm, that one is a difficult one. If you go with black, which is my choice then your always going to get the ????????'s from people at shows, and judges as well. If you go with R4 red on the chin spoiler your always going to get the ????????? from people like me. :nana:
I wonder what is under the black paint on Jim's green car? I know he wouldn't want to sand it down to look, until the time comes that someone chooses to restore the car. I'm trying to think what other Daytona's I've seen with a black chin spoiler. So all three of the Daytona's he has done have had a black chin spoiler?
Quote from: 69_500 on January 15, 2008, 05:41:20 PM
Oh if i make another trip to Detriot I'll defiantely be packing a lunch/supper and or taking him to eat at his restaurant. So this time you didn't get out of there until 3 am huh? Not bad, considering it was around 7 pm when you got there wasn't it?
As far as the chin spoiler goes. Hmmmm, that one is a difficult one. If you go with black, which is my choice then your always going to get the ????????'s from people at shows, and judges as well. If you go with R4 red on the chin spoiler your always going to get the ????????? from people like me. :nana:
I wonder what is under the black paint on Jim's green car? I know he wouldn't want to sand it down to look, until the time comes that someone chooses to restore the car. I'm trying to think what other Daytona's I've seen with a black chin spoiler. So all three of the Daytona's he has done have had a black chin spoiler?
does 3 daytona's spoiler have any rock chips or maybe they could sand some on the back of it ?
Rock chips? I think so. Let me take a few minutes to search the photo's I've taken of the car in the past couple of years.
Can't find a photo showing just the nose cone or chin spoiler on the car. However the ones that I have that do show the front end, show a large portion of the passenger side top part of the chin spoiler appears to be bare metal.
Danny, Vance has done way more than 3 Daytonas - but he has seen three original/untouched cars with black chin spoilers. Bill Card's, Chris Sauer's and mine. I don't know how many of the other Daytona's he's done were original/untouched cars, or how many of the untouched cars (if there were any more) had body-colored spoilers.
I have forgotten whether Jim's Daytona had black underneath the green, or green underneath the black - but I think it showed both colors.
highly unlikely i know , but just supposing that all the daytonas come with body colored chin spoilers , & for one reason or another they got damaged early on , & the first owners went to the dealer to get a nother , & it came in black or the red oxide stuff . not thinking it would matter & trying to save some dollars , the owners decided to get a black spray bomb out :scratchchin: like i say guys just guessing :think:
Quote from: tan top on January 15, 2008, 06:40:08 PM
highly unlikely i know , but just supposing that all the daytonas come with body colored chin spoilers , & for one reason or another they got damaged early on , & the first owners went to the dealer to get a nother , & it came in black or the red oxide stuff . not thinking it would matter & trying to save some dollars , the owners decided to get a black spray bomb out :scratchchin: like i say guys just guessing :think:
Thats true and that is a very low piece easy to damage on a parking block or curb . I would bet that more then likely some slipped out of creative black though ?
Gene the question of the chin spoiler is making me wonder. I went through all the papers from Michigan, but found nothing regarding paint the chin spoiler body color or black. Unless I'm overlooking something from those, I didn't see anything. I can't think of many unrestored Daytona's to go check out, I know that Dave B's car had a red chin spoiler on it, or at least in all the pictures I've seen of it.
do it in black , then if you get better information later going the otherway. It's an easy fix. Or if you get tired of the questions paint it then !
This chin spoiler color decision is almost as bad as deciding what color the bezels should be on the back, stripe or body color? :shruggy: :popcrn:
Great analogy there, Paul. If it wasn't for the fairly small number of black spoiler examples we've all seen as compared to the number of body-colored marker bezels, it would be clearcut.
Might be a good question for David Patik, although I think I know what his initial answer will be.
I think if you paint it black, you will go weary from the questions. I would keep that spoiler as-is for proof, and put a Patik repro on it
Quote from: DougSchellinger on January 17, 2008, 09:06:29 PM
I think if you paint it black, you will go weary from the questions. I would keep that spoiler as-is for proof, and put a Patik repro on it
Do your original in black. Buy a Patik repop and paint it body color. Then swap 'em out when you feel the need.
Why not just make it however you feel like it and tell the naysayers where they can stick their opinions? If you're going through all the trouble to make it "original" then by all means duplicate it exactly. Honestly, it's the stories about the cars and the idiosyncrasies that excite me and if they all followed the same recipe I'd skip right on by looking for something more interesting. Just like adding all the seat buttons to Dave's car when it seems that the factory forgot that step. That's cool if you ask me (and a conversation starter). I can't imagine that anyone would think that Gene could have actually messed it up... :P
Troy
Quote from: Troy on January 18, 2008, 12:48:10 AM
Why not just make it however you feel like it and tell the naysayers where they can stick their opinions? If you're going through all the trouble to make it "original" then by all means duplicate it exactly. Honestly, it's the stories about the cars and the idiosyncrasies that excite me and if they all followed the same recipe I'd skip right on by looking for something more interesting. Just like adding all the seat buttons to Dave's car when it seems that the factory forgot that step. That's cool if you ask me (and a conversation starter).
:iagree: , especially when it comes to the stories about the cars. Doug's also right though - there will be a never-ending stream of people who will point out that eggregious mistake. I might make up a little sign to put underneath the car that says "The original spoiler was black, but thanks anyway"
I traded emails with David Patik yesterday on this subject, and he was curious to know some of the details about the spoiler itself such as: how the edge looked; how the bend in the center was formed; and what shape the attachment holes were. I guess he has done enough research on the subject of spoilers (that's a good thing since he reproduces them), and can hopefully tell me a few things about both mine and the other spoiler Vance still has.
Quote from: Troy on January 18, 2008, 12:48:10 AM
I can't imagine that anyone would think that Gene could have actually messed it up... :P
Nothing like a little pressure, eh? :blush2:
Well Gene, there will be people asking about the black painted chin spoiler, as well as the latch tray areaa on your car. Anywhere else that people will be pestering you with questions? Oh other than the local yocal thinking that you messed up a perfect General Lee by putting a nose and a wing on it. :slap:
I traded emails with David Patik about the chin spoiler on my car, and he was adamant that the darker greenish primer we exposed on top of the aluminum would not have been used. He was pretty convinced that the spoiler I have is not wearing its original paint.
Soooo, to find out for myself I placed a call to the original owner, who contacted me yesterday afternoon. As it turns out, the car did NOT have a black spoiler originally. Nor, as it turns out, did the car have its scoops painted black at the St. Josepth Dodge dealership as I had earlier thought. The original owner (Terry) remembers both of those being R4 red when he bought the car. So, those "touches" must have been done by either the dealership who took the car in trade, or by Owner #2. I'll talk with the 2nd owner sometime soon to find out what he remembers of the deal.
I found out another couple of tidbits about the car's history too, which always fascinate me. Terry used to take the car to occasionally to a dragstrip north of his hometown, where he ran both the 1/4 and the 1/8mile. He said the car would be doing well over 100mph at the 1/4 mile, but he didn't remember the ET. The last time he went down the strip he was racing a 396 Chevelle, who insisted on getting a car length headstart on the Daytona. The Chevelle beat Terry to the line by a nose (no pun intended), but was disqualified afterwards when it was discovered the Chevelle's engine was not stock. That was the last time Terry ran the car on the strip. He told me about running between St. Joseph and KC on the 4-lane cruising at 135mph, and being able to kick the carburetor secondaries in at that speed. :shruggy:
One final point... when the car developed its oil consumption problems, he traded it in on a '72 340 Cuda in early October of '72. The dealership gave him $1,600 trade-in value for the Daytona, and I know from talking with Owner #2 that it was purchased from the same dealership less than two months later for $1,700. Those were the days!
So, the mystery of the black spoiler (on my car, anyway) is solved. That does not mean other cars did not come out with such, but mine was not equipped that way.
I hope to make it up to Michigan in a couple of weeks to check on the car's progress. The nosecone is back on the car from what I hear, so it is starting to turn the corner.
solved your chin spoiler mastery then , thats awesome you could actually talk to the original owner :2thumbs: thanks for sharing the info ....... would love to here what story's the second owner has .............. :popcrn:
thats incredible that you got to talk to the original owner. congrats. Rene
That's actually the second time I've been able to talk with the original owner. He's a really nice guy who (understandably) really wishes he had never gotten rid of the car. If it hadn't had a problem burning some engine oil, he probably would have kept it since he liked the car alot. The dealership he was taking the car to for warranty service on the oil problem would fill it up with oil and send him out for an "oil consumption" test. In Terry's mind that was just the dealership's way of having him run 500 more miles onto the odometer and make it that much closer to the warranty's expiration. It also said "Go Away" pretty clearly too. The dealership supposedly put new rings in it, but Terry said it didn't change the way the car used oil one bit. Chances are they didn't get any farther than taking the valve covers off, but who knows??
Terry said the very first time he drove the car into his hometown, he was immediately pulled over by the local State Highway Patrolman who wanted to know: Who he was; where he lived; what was he doing in town with that car; and what the car had in it. I guess they wanted to know where to find him "just in case." They'd have known whodunnit for sure with a car that stuck out like a bright red Daytona...
Unless the somehow got it confused with a green Daytona in the same town right?
Well I guess that solves part of the mysetery on the black chin spoiler. I wonder if they painted the scoops and chin spoiler black to match the other daytona that was in town. Probably saw the Green one running around town with the black scoops and chin spoiler, and someone thought it was a pretty cool idea and painted yours that way too.
:scratchchin:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 04, 2008, 04:31:43 PM
That's actually the second time I've been able to talk with the original owner. He's a really nice guy who (understandably) really wishes he had never gotten rid of the car. If it hadn't had a problem burning some engine oil, he probably would have kept it since he liked the car alot. The dealership he was taking the car to for warranty service on the oil problem would fill it up with oil and send him out for an "oil consumption" test. In Terry's mind that was just the dealership's way of having him run 500 more miles onto the odometer and make it that much closer to the warranty's expiration. It also said "Go Away" pretty clearly too. The dealership supposedly put new rings in it, but Terry said it didn't change the way the car used oil one bit. Chances are they didn't get any farther than taking the valve covers off, but who knows??
Terry said the very first time he drove the car into his hometown, he was immediately pulled over by the local State Highway Patrolman who wanted to know: Who he was; where he lived; what was he doing in town with that car; and what the car had in it. I guess they wanted to know where to find him "just in case." They'd have known whodunnit for sure with a car that stuck out like a bright red Daytona...
his (oil burner) loss is your gain
Pushing this thread back to the top in hopes it'll spur an update.....hint, hint......
I'll see if Gene updates this post himself, if not I'll post a few of the photo's that I took of his car yesterday. Hmmmmm, come to think of it, I think I only took about 10 pictures of his car yesterday, and probably as many of the chin spoiler that will go on the car.
LONG DAY yesterday though. Very intersting.
Yeah, I'll hopefully have some time to post a few pictures taken on Saturday morning. Nothing major to report (unfortunately?). They have actually taken the Daytona fenders back off the car, and are smoothing out a few things, and are getting ready to slap a set of regular '69 fenders on in preparation for the color coat and undercoating in the wheelwells.
More later...
Quote from: 69_500 on February 24, 2008, 07:43:26 PM
LONG DAY yesterday though. Very intersting.
I'll second that. I didn't get home until 10am Sunday morning, and slept 14 hours last night.
So you drove straight through as well then Gene? I got home around 4:45 or so, got to sleep for about 2 hours, then got up to go to church. Then stayed up until around 10 pm last night, and man am I feeling it today. Thinking about going to bed here in a few minutes for the night.
Another of Vance Cumming's restorations:
http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=SC0508-66161
If your Daytona turns out as nice as this car....it'll really be something!!
Any updates Gene...??? :popcrn:
From what I've seen of the restoration shop that Vance runs, everything that he puts out is of very nice quality. I know that he is probably like most shops though and will only go as far as the owner of the car wants to go, but of the cars I've looked over at the shop they are all VERY Nicely done. I think that Gene's Daytona will definitely be one sharp looking car once completed. I don't think he will have anything to complain about once its done. The small details that Vance notices, and then duplicates are just incredible. And he is definitely one to copy every little detail on a car, down to the most minuscule detail.
Guys, I am sorry for the lack of recent updates. It has been absolutely crazy around the office, but in a good way. I will try to find time next week to resize the pictures from the last trip up, as well as a few pictures Vance sent me recently from the original nosecone's disassembly. To be honest, the hardest part is trying to come up with some sort of an interesting description for the final smoothing/detail work that has been going on lately. Some of that stuff you have to see & feel to get the gist of what's happening. With things being as busy as they have been for me and with the lack of major change in the car's look, I just haven't devoted the time to updating this thread like I should have. It's been a lot more fun watching the threads showing Kori's progress on Carl's car and the major transformation Allen's car is going through anyway.
The latest update of my Daytona's condition -- from early last week -- is that it is just days away from being rolled into the paint booth. The inner fenders has been shot with primer/color/undercoating to replicate the look those parts had from Hamtramck when Creative got their hands on the car.
Dave H. (the previous owner of my car) and I are planning to stop by Vance's shop on Saturday morning to check the progress out. I will try to be a little more timely with that update - especially if there's very much R4 red to show.
:cheers:
Geno
P.S. Danny & Steve L. - you guys are welcome to stop in too on Saturday if ya got the time...
Can't make it this weekend Gene. And this would have been the first time I could drive up to Michigan without driving in snow or ice right? Ah well, the summer is still long, and it won't be snowing up there for quite some time. Maybe I'll squeeze in a few trips this summer. I definately wanna head back over to Detriot sometime this summer. Heck maybe even to Lansing too.
Oh, and Robin, that car you posted the link to looks awesome. Vance has done several cars for Harold Sullivan over the years, and I've only seen a few of them. Vance does indeed do the little things right, and that's a big reason I wanted him to do the resto on my car. There are a lot of good resto shops out there though, but having a guy like Vance (who has forgotten more about Mopars in general and Aero cars in particular than I'll probably ever learn) is just pretty neat in my book. I always come away from his shop picking up at least one little detail I hadn't even thought about before.
The final assembly and detail work will be the best part of the resto for me to watch.
Vance is the best .He did Billy Cards B5 blue just to name a few well known cars.And now that Hemi Geno mentioned Harold Sullivan it reminded me of this daytona and its story.Some cars from our local N.J town resident MR Hemi A.KA. Anatol V have found found their way to Vances shop Ive heard.The White Cuda originally FC7 Purple.Was known to have gone there.The Harold Sullivan Hemi 4 speed daytona.Thats in this article Was the.rescued daytona from Brooklyn NY in 1978.I had seen his cars and the wingcars that he used to own. Before I had my 440 daytona .He hinted about maybe taking $30K for it .I didnt have in the 80s:.Now hemi daytona 4 speeds 1 of 22 $$$.$$$
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/MRHemi.jpg)
OK, here are the pictures I took back on February 23rd. Yeah, that was a while ago. I guess since I'm supposed to go look at the car again on Saturday, it's finally time to post these pictures... :P
This first batch was a few detail pictures I took in response to a question from Carl about his Hemi500's decklid. I was trying to show the way that the larger holes were punched out, so that he could compare the oversized holes at the corner of his decklid to see if they have similar witness marks from the machining/punching process.
These two pictures were also in response to Carl's question about the size/location of the decklid rubber bumper holes.
The last pic is one that shows the side of the decklid and hinge attachment details.
I also took pictures of the trunk corners, where the window plug dies into the trunk channel. Creative was pretty crude with their welding job, and we didn't make any attempt to clean this up or make it look nice.
The last two pictures show the trunk compartment light switch bracket that was re-attached. You could clearly see marks on the sheet metal where this bracket was attached at one time on my car, and the vast majority of Daytona's I've looked at also have this bracket - regardless of whether the car has the A01 Light Group or not. It's our firm opinion that this bracket should be present on my car, so we put it back (without going to any great lengths to make the welds look very nice). You can see the remnants of the original bracket location in the last picture. There are sawzall marks still on the metal from where Creative Industries' workers hacked the bracket off. They just spot-welded the off-fall piece in the relocated spot as you see here.
I took some pictures showing the engine compartment area. If you've followed this thread (and some other threads which talked about the same thing), there is a hole behind the battery which I have only noticed on Daytonas. This hole has NOT been drilled on my car yet, as you can see in the second picture. The reason for this is that when Hamtramck built the car, it did not have that hole. It was added at Creative Industries, after the paint had been applied. So, Vance will re-drill the hole after paint so that the edges of the hole will have bare metal showing instead of being painted.
Details, details details...
I took a bunch of pictures of the fenders. Vance's guys pulled the fenders back off the shelves and spent some serious time slicking up the inside of the fenders. These things are now as smooth and straight on the inside as they are on the outside. The braces took some time to clean up, as they had some pitting and slight nicks/bends from roadrash over the years.
why is the bottom masked off from the engine bay? is it already in that primer that will be the finished look?
Quote from: PocketThunder on April 09, 2008, 10:16:55 PM
why is the bottom masked off from the engine bay? is it already in that primer that will be the finished look?
I don't know if it's in the "official" primer, but I do know that they did not want to have a continual buildup of the DP40 they've been spraying.
Here are some more inner fender pictures. Not much to point out, in all honesty...
The last of the fender pictures, including a shot of the fender scoop grille screen. This screen is the original, as-installed at Creative (somewhat crudely, eh?)
I only took one picture of the interior/passenger compartment. Vance's guys have since gone over the floorpans front-to-back, removing the evidences of the patches and the remaining rust pitting. They didn't spend nearly the same amount of time as they did on the underneath side, since this will be covered with carpeting. Personally, I'm glad they spent the time to smooth this out also.
The last three pictures are of the nosecone, which has since been assembled, mounted, removed, primed, and might be back on the car as it gets ready to be rolled into the paint booth.
I took pictures of the inner fender area, which has since been prepped differently than you see it now. After correctly priming the inner fenders, Joey (Vance's son who works at the shop) took regular '69 Charger fenders, and mounted them to the inner fenders. They then put the R4 color coating and undercoating on the inner fenders, then removed the '69 fenders. The mounting flange of the inner fender now bears the markings that it would have had at Hamtramck, with exposed primer where the '69 fenders used to sit. This might get a very light misting of R4 as the rest of the front clip is being painted, but for the most part the inner fender areas that faces the front wheel are finished.
Pictures of the right side inner fender area (same treatment done to this side)
As a follow-up to the earlier discussion about the front chin spoiler, I took many pictures of my car's piece. This was to verify that it was indeed an original part. I haven't had the chance to discuss these pictures with David Patik, but I know one of the tell-tale signs he looks for to determine if a spoiler is original or a reproduction is the saw-toothed edge. This is next to impossible to reproduce correctly, so either a piece has this characteristic or it doesn't.
You can also see the paint strata. David Patik swears that the spoiler would never have been primed with a green primer such as you see on my spoiler, but Vance says that he has indeed seen primer such as that used in other places. I honestly don't know what to think about this issue, since the original owner recalls the spoiler being bodycolor. The tiebreaker will be owner #2, who is about the only other person who would have painted the spoiler (apart from the used car dealership that had the car for less than 2 months). Vance still thinks that black was used on some cars, and he's seen original spoilers with the exact same primer/finish.
:shruggy:
More spoiler pictures/closeups. David Patik was also interested in the shape of the holes and the bend at the center of the piece itself. I don't know exactly how this one compares to a reproduction, but since he asked about those specific areas I snapped the pics.
Here's one last picture of the car from last February, from the rear.
The next three pictures are from the way-back files. Vance recently sent me some pics of the nosecone and front end of the car from right after I dropped it off. They did take pictures to document what the car originally looked like, as part of the restoration process should be to restore the original unique characteristics of THAT CAR. They weren't all built exactly alike, and one of the things I enjoy looking at is unusual (but verifiable) quirks certain cars have. The pics here are of the nosecone before it was totally disassembled. You can see the harnesses, tabs and wiring termination locations for starters. Lots of good detail stuff here IMHO
Everything's looking great. I love it when people do things right.
FYI, tell the body shop that if they buy the amer-poxy by American Finish, it's the exact same product as DP40. Exact same product, exact same batch numbers, half of the price. It's made and packaged by PPG and even comes to us in PPG boxes. I've been helping a frend at his automotive paint store and we're discovering all types of products that are sold under various labels. The local PPG store is upset that we're stealing their customers with their own products and they can't do anything about it. We received a case of American Finish products a couple of weeks ago and one of the containers had the PPG label on it and it had the same batch code. The American Finish paint is a low quality product much like PPG Omni, but a lot of the other products are the high end PPG product.
These last four pictures are pretty neat, in that they show that my car was not given a blackout treatment that most other cars had applied. Once the nosecone was mounted, Creative's guys were supposed to shove a paint gun in between the nosecone and radiator yoke - to the outside of the Z-bracket. They were supposed to spray flat black paint around in this area to black out the metal and rubber splash shields/gasketing. You can clearly see in these pictures that this treatment was never done on this particular car. David Patik has said he's seen a few cars over the years (like mine) that did not have the blackout paint, but they are in the minority.
You can, however, still see the blackout paint that Hamtramck applied to the radiator yoke.
The last picture shows the original fender-to-nosecone seals. We're planning to re-use these pieces, as they are honestly in pretty good shape. The reproductions are reportedly pretty good, but are discernable from original parts. Finding a set of NOS seals would probably have been difficult in late 1969, much less now - although I did hear Harry Lee Hyde, Jr. say that they threw a pickup truck load of factory nosecone seals in the dumpster when they stopped using them. Almost enough to make you cry...
That's all the pics I have to post at the moment. More soon, and hopefully some bright red pics REALLY soon!
Quote from: hotrod98 on April 09, 2008, 11:16:17 PM
Everything's looking great. I love it when people do things right.
FYI, tell the body shop that if they buy the amer-poxy by American Finish, it's the exact same product as DP40. Exact same product, exact same batch numbers, half of the price. It's made and packaged by PPG and even comes to us in PPG boxes. I've been helping a frend at his automotive paint store and we're discovering all types of products that are sold under various labels. The local PPG store is upset that we're stealing their customers with their own products and they can't do anything about it. We received a case of American Finish products a couple of weeks ago and one of the containers had the PPG label on it and it had the same batch code. The American Finish paint is a low quality product much like PPG Omni, but a lot of the other products are the high end PPG product.
Thanks, Larry - I think I'll print that off and take it with me. Go figure...
Ya know something..... if I didnt have the internet to see how some guys take a restoration to the next level, I would restore my car to the best that i thought it could be and the take it to a local show and maybe (probably) find out that i could have done this and that differently, more correctly. It sure is a benefit to me to have this website and all your guys' knowlege to assist me in my resto of my car.
Just felt like saying that i appreciate the pictures Gene, and i appreciate, (electronically), Vance's work!
Paul
in St. Paul (getting real close to starting my C500) <<< ala Bryan style :yesnod:
Thanks, Paul!
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing sometimes iddnit? When I first got this car, my plan was not to do a concours-level restoration. The more I learned about how things were done originally, the more it made me want to put it back that way. That's just me though - not everyone's car needs to be taken to that extreme. I'm actually a little apprehensive that the average onlooker will see the details that have been carefully replicated as just a shoddy restoration job.
QuoteIt sure is a benefit to me to have this website and all your guys' knowlege to assist me in my resto of my car.
no doubt. i've saved almost every pic from this thread . thanks Gene
Great progress Gene, regarding that chin spoiler, it looks as though there is a layer of red on top of the black over green primer. I wonder if Creative received some chin spoilers in black over green primer and then painted them body color during assembly?
Love the disassembly pics! What are those protrusions on the inside of the cone on each side? Almost look like studs of some sort.
Thanks, guys! I'm especially glad that the pictures are of use to some folks, as there's no better reason to post something than that reason right there.
:cheers:
Robert, I think the studs you're asking about were vestiges of some mystery brackets that we found attached between the nosecone and the front fenders. I never did figure out if this was someone's attempt to get the nose to line up better with the profile of the fenders, or if it was some sort of an aid during the nosecone fitment stage, or just what-da-heck those brackets/plates were. There are a few pictures of the mystery metal on this thread:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,21150.0/all.html
more awesome pictures :yesnod:...making good progress now ! :2thumbs: can't wait to see it in color :drool5:
The car is looking great Geno! I do have one complaint, though..... My fingers are getting tired from right click, save as-right click, save as-right click, save as-right click, save as.... :2thumbs:
So ,,, Is the front clip actually going to match the rest of the car once it's painted :2thumbs:
Quote from: gtx6970 on April 10, 2008, 07:13:18 PM
So ,,, Is the front clip actually going to match the rest of the car once it's painted :2thumbs:
Hmm... I suppose that'd be a good thing, eh? :P
Chris, I'll send you a PM here in a sec. Can't have you ending up with Carpal Tunnel right when all kinds of good things are happening on your car, now can we?
tantop, you and I both will be pretty happy when there's a whole lot of R4 to look at.
:cheers:
Gene, whats the proportion of the car that will actually receive 2 coats of paint? Just curious if you've asked Vance that. Knowing that the entire car was painted R4 with 69 Front clip attached, then later on the new hood, front fenders, window plug, and nose cone were all painted R4 to match. How far up on the rest of the body did they go to blend the two paint jobs together?
Danny, the amount of the car that received two coats of paint totally depended on the mood of the Creative Industries paint guy and/or how much of the car got screwed up by the conversion process. Sometimes the whole quarterpanels and roof got painted, sometimes it blended quite well and they didn't have to paint nearly as much. Probably depended on what color the car was as well :shruggy: Just about any part of the car could have been repainted if it got dinged up, but normally they wouldn't have painted the top of the cowl, the doors or the rocker panels. Maybe the rear valance. Almost every other part of the car was subject to being at least touched up if not totally repainted.
I got back last night at around 10pm from yet another trek up north to see the car. It's almost ready for the paint booth, and I did actually see R4 paint on some sheet metal! I'll try to get the pics resized and posted next week if I can, but it'll be a busy week at work for me too. Both Dave H. and I were pretty excited to see the car that close to rolling into paint booth.
Some of the details they're working on that Vance pointed out are just pretty cool to see, and I learned a lot - as usual.
Pretty exiting detective work Gene :scope: Amazing to see the little nuances each car has built into it...no 2 are the same.
Are you going to spray the area black that the "majority" of the cars received in the nose cone area or are you going back with the minority? I would assume the minority no?
Chris
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on April 13, 2008, 03:47:05 PM
Pretty exiting detective work Gene :scope: Amazing to see the little nuances each car has built into it...no 2 are the same.
Are you going to spray the area black that the "majority" of the cars received in the nose cone area or are you going back with the minority? I would assume the minority no?
Chris
Thanks, Chris. And you betcha we're gonna stick with the minority and leave the blackout paint off from the nosecone area. I love being the oddball....
One old(er) business item here - FJMG mentioned seeing a layer of red over black over green primer on the chin spoiler. From what we could see, there was really no red paint on the spoiler that wasn't overspray from some bodywork done to the nosecone. Since the car has had some bodywork done to it, some might say that the spoiler's existing paint can't be trusted. However, all of the post-Creative bodywork was done very crudely (see the pictures of pop-riveted sheet metal on the quarterpanel patch repair for Exhibit "A") so I see absolutely no reason why they would have carefully sanded down and prepped the nosecone spoiler when the sanded down and properly prepared absolutely nothing else that they touched. I still need to call Owner #2 and ask him what he remembers.
:cheers:
Geno...
Man,, I haven't said anything in a while.. But man,, your Daytona's coming together GREAT !!!!!!
Cheers,
Troy
Quote from: hemi68charger on April 13, 2008, 08:32:39 PM
Geno...
Man,, I haven't said anything in a while.. But man,, your Daytona's coming together GREAT !!!!!!
Cheers,
Troy
Thanks, Troy. You gotta bring us up to speed on your '68 resto sometime, which will (hopefully) parlay itself into a Daytona for the Hawkes family yet again...
Quote from: hemigeno on April 13, 2008, 09:36:39 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on April 13, 2008, 08:32:39 PM
Geno...
Man,, I haven't said anything in a while.. But man,, your Daytona's coming together GREAT !!!!!!
Cheers,
Troy
Thanks, Troy. You gotta bring us up to speed on your '68 resto sometime, which will (hopefully) parlay itself into a Daytona for the Hawkes family yet again...
The '68 hit a dull moment again................ I hoping it'll get sparked off again this week.. I've called and inquired on it's progress........................ As you say, I'm hoping so....................
This is an awesome thread Geno! :2thumbs: What is the projected finish on your Daytona?
Steve
:bump: Anything new coming soon? :shruggy:
Quote from: 1hot68 on May 16, 2008, 11:35:01 AM
Anything new coming soon?
Strange you should ask that question. As I type this, the truck is all packed and I'm literally getting ready to head up north tonight. I'll check on the car Saturday morning.
The reason I haven't posted the pictures from the last update is primarily due to a hard drive crash I had at the end of April. THANKFULLY, Chris/(Daytona R/T SE) had asked me for some picture files which had prompted me to burn a CD with all of the restoration picture files. Otherwise, I would have lost about 75% of the resto pictures.
I just haven't had the heart to load the pictures back on the hard drive, but this trip over the weekend should light the fires again. There has been some progress made, although the car still isn't in the paint booth just yet (there are reasons why, which I'll explain with the next batch of pics).
More soon...
Quote from: XS29J8 on April 17, 2008, 08:20:51 AM
This is an awesome thread Geno! :2thumbs: What is the projected finish on your Daytona?
Steve
Thanks, Steve! The projected finish is somewhat of a moving target. Initially, I had been told 8-9 months. I knew that was way short of what it would take even before they started, which was back in November of '06. My guess? It'll be late summer at the absolute soonest, and probably sometime in the fall/winter. I really don't mind, as my "deadline" all along has been to have the car done by the DSAC Talladega reunion in '09. I certainly hope we can get 'er done before then!
:cheers:
Those are awesome pics. They have helped me out tremendously on my own car. One question though. On the inside of the trunk pan. The gap that you took pics of at the rear end of both trunk extensions. How do those get filled in, or do they?
Quote from: charger01 on May 21, 2008, 03:57:08 PM
Those are awesome pics. They have helped me out tremendously on my own car. One question though. On the inside of the trunk pan. The gap that you took pics of at the rear end of both trunk extensions. How do those get filled in, or do they?
Thanks, glad the pics are helping out! Do you mean these gaps?
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/attachments/Z1293.JPG)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/attachments/Z1294.JPG)
They remain pretty much just like that - except for the addition of a bunch of seam sealer on the topside seams... Lemme check to see if I have an old pic showing that area.
:cheers:
I would really appreciate it. Iam using alot of your pics for reference to give to my body man. They are a life saver and I appreciate it tremendously. Those areas are supposed to be open? Seems very odd. Any addtitional pics would be great. thanks agan,
bob
Bob,
I dug through the pictures I have, and did not find the ones I was looking for (long story, but they were taken in the last year and weren't archived on any other disc so they're lost).
So, I went out and shot a picture of the passenger's side trunk corner of my '69 R/T. Same thing, and this should give you the idea of how it should look. The trunk mat covers everything up pretty well, so that is not a visible area in a finished car.
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on May 22, 2008, 11:05:09 AM
Bob,
I dug through the pictures I have, and did not find the ones I was looking for (long story, but they were taken in the last year and weren't archived on any other disc so they're lost).
So, I went out and shot a picture of the passenger's side trunk corner of my '69 R/T. Same thing, and this should give you the idea of how it should look. The trunk mat covers everything up pretty well, so that is not a visible area in a finished car.
:cheers:
thanks so much for all your help....will relay to my bodyguy.
Gene is there no hope of salvaging the hard drive? Have you tried taking it out of the computer, and putting it in another computer as a slave drive, and just trying to access it that way?
I had a hard drive totally crash a few years ago and the computer nerds managed to get it working just long enough to get all of my info off of it.
Quote from: 69_500 on May 22, 2008, 06:58:36 PM
Gene is there no hope of salvaging the hard drive? Have you tried taking it out of the computer, and putting it in another computer as a slave drive, and just trying to access it that way?
Quote from: hotrod98 on May 22, 2008, 07:59:22 PM
I had a hard drive totally crash a few years ago and the computer nerds managed to get it working just long enough to get all of my info off of it.
From what I know of it - the heads crashed. You know, that eerie screetching noise of metal on metal. Hard to repair that. I've had drives with bad sectors or a corrupt boot sector that I've been able to get working but never one with a mechanical defect.
Troy
Mine was related to the part of the hard drive that moves across the face of the disc to read it.
I know how to turn a computer on and that's about the extent of my knowledge. I'm 52 years old...what wo you expect?
Quote from: 69_500 on May 22, 2008, 06:58:36 PM
Gene is there no hope of salvaging the hard drive? Have you tried taking it out of the computer, and putting it in another computer as a slave drive, and just trying to access it that way?
Danny,
Troy's right - the heads were making contact with the platters. A cousin of mine who's an IT guy for a major corporation dropped by the same day that it crashed, and we tried hooking the problem drive up as a "slave" drive on another PC. It didn't even recognize that there was a drive there, as something went wrong with the file allocation information. Jeremy (my cousin) said that it was the equivalent of having a library full of information with no way of knowing what was on any of the shelves. The PC's just couldn't make heads or tails of what was there. That wasn't the bad part though. Jeremy has some high-powered and quite expensive software which can handle problems like this, so we tried making a copy of the raw data onto a new drive. It was while that copying process was ongoing that the buzzing sound started, and it got progressively worse as time went on. Eventually, the copying process stopped - but I honestly don't know if the copying was done or if the drive just stopped spinning (even though the loud buzzing continued).
Anyway, the data that was copied ended up being totally unusable by Jeremy's software so the only option we had was taking the drive into one of the data recovery places. There's a really good one about an hour away from my shop, so I took the drive to them. This is where they physically crack open the drive's case in a clean room environment and take the platters out. Normally, they can put them on another machine that can spin & read the info - but in my case of course, the platters were scored up so badly that all of the data was totally unreadable.
My luck... :rotz:
I did have backup copies of a lot of the important files & spreadsheets, so things could be way worse.
The pictures from last weekend and the previous trip are on the new drive, and I'll try to resize them and post 'em up yet today.
Man... Geno.. That stinks................. My boot sector crashed on my PC a few weeks ago.. Had a firm come to the house and bascially rebuild the thing and also recover all my data, luckily..... He had his software magic and was able to suck it off my bad drive, unto his, then copied back to the new harddrive in my machine........
Look forward to more updates.............
Troy
Quote from: hemi68charger on May 23, 2008, 11:34:11 AM
Man... Geno.. That stinks................. My boot sector crashed on my PC a few weeks ago.. Had a firm come to the house and bascially rebuild the thing and also recover all my data, luckily..... He had his software magic and was able to suck it off my bad drive, unto his, then copied back to the new harddrive in my machine........
Look forward to more updates.............
Troy
I've got two words for you all: automatic backup. :yesnod: It's well worth spending the $79 on a 150GB portable Maxtor drive that you just plug into a USB port, then use the software that comes with it to setup an automatic backup. Works like a charm. No fuss, no messing around. :Twocents:
-Russ
Quote from: RAC95054 on May 23, 2008, 04:58:45 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on May 23, 2008, 11:34:11 AM
Man... Geno.. That stinks................. My boot sector crashed on my PC a few weeks ago.. Had a firm come to the house and bascially rebuild the thing and also recover all my data, luckily..... He had his software magic and was able to suck it off my bad drive, unto his, then copied back to the new harddrive in my machine........
Look forward to more updates.............
Troy
I've got two words for you all: automatic backup. :yesnod: It's well worth spending the $79 on a 150GB portable Maxtor drive that you just plug into a USB port, then use the software that comes with it to setup an automatic backup. Works like a charm. No fuss, no messing around. :Twocents:
-Russ
Oh, I've learned my lesson well. I already have a 500GB second hard drive that automatically backs most everything up from the main C: drive - PLUS a 750GB external hard drive that I'll do a complete image of the entire C: drive periodically.
Trust me, I don't want to go through this hassle again :brickwall: I just assumed that with a PC only a few years old that I was safe and only needing to back up my data files every so often. I guess I'm spelling all this out for all the folks out there just like I was, living on borrowed time.
The pictures from the April trip to Vance's shop are now resized, and I'm in the process of sorting them into groups. Still hoping to get them posted, but I have to leave the office in 45 minutes. The May trip's pictures will have to wait a little while longer unfortunately...
Ok, here are most of the pics I took on my trip to Vance's back on April 12th.
This first batch shows the engine compartment, and some R4 showing on the upper part of the inner fenders. There's a reason for painting just that section which will be apparent in the next reply. It was quite a relief to see some actual color on the car after all.
All the priming and painting done so far has been sprayed in the "dirty" side of the shop, although they did take as much in the way of precautions that they could to keep dust & other contaminants from wreaking havoc. You can still see a lot of masking which keeps overspray from building up.
This first picture shows what they were up to with spraying just that section of the inner fender. You can see that the fender itself does not have any R4 red on it. That's because the Daytona fender was not attached to the car when they sprayed all that red. At the time, they borrowed a set of regular '69 fenders and attached those for the sprayout. The inner fender was primed in the correct color, the fender fitted/bolted, and then the red sprayed on. That way, when the '69 regular fender is removed, you see a nice outline of where the bolt head was when the other fender was mated up.
There isn't a whole lot of difference in where the bolt heads meet up, but there's invariably a little difference from one sheet metal part to the next. You should be able to see the paint ring around where the original bolt head was at when the red was applied. Depending on where the bolt has to be, there will be some that show grey primer peeking through in spots as well. In that first picture, the bolts aren't tightened all the way down just yet so you can see the bolt/washer spray pattern.
The hood hinges were on the car when Hamtramck painted that section as well, so they positioned the hinges for the proper hood clearance/margins and then sprayed it in place. There will be no attempt to touch up the hood hinge bolts from adjusting everything, since Creative Industries could have had to mess around with those to get the new Daytona hood to fit properly.
Here you can see the front part of the inner fender, as well as the radiator yoke. The '70 Charger style fenders bolt up totally differently from the '69 style. The fender essentially bolts to the front of the radiator yoke rather than to the front corner. More on that in a moment.
You can see the radiator blackout treatment that the cars still received at Hamtramck even though the majority of the yoke is not exactly visible through the nosecone opening.
DC.com member FJMG has been studying the battery cooling holes in the radiator yokes of Daytonas, and they all seem to have just the one. Anyone have any ideas when the transition from two holes to one occurred? I don't think that is just a Daytona thing, as I thought all B-body cars went to just the one hole sometime fairly late in the model year.
This next batch of pics explains why they shot the R4 in the inner fenders. They had to shoot this area so the undercoating could be applied over the top of the color coat. You can see the inner fenders in place and the color coat peeking through here and there. In stark contrast is the backside of the Daytona fender which is still in primer. That's the way the inside of the fender will remain too, as they were never oversprayed with undercoating like the originals were.
In these pics you can see a few more picky details. The first shot shows the underside of the fender scoop opening and the primer coating which will remain exposed from here on. The second picture shows the pattern that Hamtramck used to spray the undercoating around in the inner fender area.
Those last two pictures show an unusual detail. When the '69 fenders were installed at Hamtramck, their U-clips were installed when the undercoating was shot on both the inner fender and the inside of the fender itself. Creative Industries (probably looking to save a buck), scavenged the U-clips off of the original '69 fenders that were being pulled off. They stuck the clips on the new fender and re-used the same bolts as well. So, you'll see remnants of color coat and/or undercoating on both the clip and bolt - but NONE whatsoever on the inside of the fender itself.
These pics show the inner fender on the passenger's side, which mirrors the details & procedures on the other side.
This next set of pics show another couple of weird Daytona traits. The first picture shows where the original '69 bumper braces were attached, which differ slightly from the Daytona crash bars. The '69 bumper brackets were installed after color coating, but prior to the undercoating - hence the shadow effect. The crash bars will cover most of this area up, but if you look closely around the edge of the finished product you can still see the hints of this treatment still showing. We did not skip this step even though it's hard to see evidence of it later on.
If you take a close look at the second picture, you'll clearly see the outline of the primer where the '69 regular fender mated up with the inner fender. In fact, you can see where the undercoating went through the extra slots in the fender. There's red color coat that leaked through from the edges and from the backside as well, which would have permeated the joint a lot more than the undercoating would have. Again, Vance's guys borrowed a pair of regular fenders to create this effect with the color coat and undercoating.
Once again you can see some of the scavenged hardware that has color on it which stands in contrast to the primered inside of the fender.
Here's another easy to miss detail that I tried in vain to capture on the camera. The hood hinges were installed on the car when Hamtramck painted the color coat, which meant that there should be just primer behind the hood hinges and on the backside of the hinges themselves. I tried taking a shot of the backside of the hinges, but it didn't turn out as well as I'd have hoped. The upper part of the hinge will still get paint on it from the "official" paint work that Vance will do in the paint booth. However, he'll make no attempt to coat the backside of the hinge bracket much better than what you see right now. Overspray only...
The front door jambs were painted now rather than in the paint booth, since it'd be impossible to properly cover the jamb without getting way too much paint in places where it's not supposed to be (if they tried to paint the jambs later). The color coat was sprayed on at Hamtramck before the fender splash shield was installed, so the backside of the splash shield is plainly visible with it's black "primer" showing. You can also clearly see the grey primer of the Daytona fender, which will pretty much remain visible just like you see it here. Vance will not do too much masking in the paint booth to keep overspray off of either the splash shield or the backside of the fender, since Creative Industries didn't worry too much about overspray. What it gets is what it gets.
This first picture shows a visible area of the backside of the fender, visible when the door is open and you look directly down from the topside. Again, this might get a very light dusting of overspray, but that grey primer will still be quite apparent if you look for it.
I also took a shot of the fender and hood, which were still being massaged at the time the picture was taken. When one of the fender mounting bolts was tightened, it created just enough of a wave in the fender top to send Vance's guys back to the fill/block/sand routine for a while. Picky does not begin to describe the level they've attained on the straightening the sheet metal on this car. :bow:
This first shot was intended to help another guy out who is trying to fit his A-pillar trim. There just isn't much clearance between the door and the A-pillar, and when you try to fit the trim it's EXTREMELY easy to nick the top of the door. Scratching up a fresh paint job on a car like this would ruin anyone's day...
I also took a shot of the battery tray, just as a reminder to me that Vance's guys haven't switched this one out to the factory-original tray that he has there in his shop. The cowl shot looks a whole lot better now that they've fixed the heat damage to the sheet metal, doesn't it??
I took some shots of the interior / passenger compartment. They have gone through and cleaned up almost all of the pitting that used to be visible. Even though carpet covers pretty much the entire floorboard, it bugged me that the pitting was still there - so I asked Vance's guys to spend some time cleaning things up. This was the first time I'd seen the finished product and it looks a TON better.
These are yet a few more shots of the rear glass area. Vance will still paint the original Charger sail panel areas in color coat even though the headliner will cover everything up.
The nosecone was not mounted on the car in April, and they were still massaging everything to suit their picky standards. I don't remember if I've mentioned this little tidbit or not, but in the third picture you can see what looks like an unfinished seam. In fact, that's exactly what it was. The nosecones were essentially made of pieces that were joined together and then leaded in. The top sides of the nosecones had a lot more filler/lead work done on them, but about 1/4 of the way down on the bottomside they just quit filling in the big gap between the L/R pieces and the center section. It would have looked a little better if they'd have kept going, but that's how they did the originals so that's what we're doing now.
The first two pictures are of the wing components, which were being filled/blocked/sanded for the umpteenth time. The last two pictures are of the '69 R/T SE sunroof car that is patiently awaiting its turn. As you can see, it's back from the sand & media blaster's shop and the car is pretty solid - no, check that - VERY solid from a sheet metal standpoint.
Last batch for now, although I still have another batch of pics from my May visit queued up - they still need to be resized and grouped though...
I took these last three pictures to cheer me up after seeing how solid that sunroof car is. This is a 3rd Gen Charger that a guy is having Vance repair. IIRC the car is not necessarily rare, and the owner is undoubtedly going to drop some serious coin to repair the sheet metal. Lots-o-Swiss visible, and I didn't even look that closely.
To each his own, I suppose...
:2thumbs: Nice detailed pics :yesnod:
Makin it so easy for all of us..... Love the detail..
:popcrn: taking shape now Geno :yesnod: :2thumbs: that dude is doing awesome work :yesnod: ..
wow!
Gene I don't remember what month it was when I made the last trip up there with you, but if you lost any photo's of that trip, I still have copies of the ones I took that day. Which includes about 10-15 of the front chin spoiler.
Car is starting to take shape now Gene. I really wanna make another trip up to see the car as its getting closer to paint, and even maybe during reassembly. Actually I wanna bring up the video camera and do some shooting on the car.
Geno,,
What a thrill to see paint !!!!!! I can't wait to see paint back on my '68 again within the month..... It'll mean you-know-what.............
Looking fantastic........................
Troy
Looks good Geno!
Whats the status Geno? :popcrn:
Well, not much movement at the moment. I've been scrambling around to try and find a supplier for flat rubber material to make the air seals that surround the radiator, K-frame, etc. It's been a struggle. I was very hopeful in my dealings with one manufacturer's rep for about 2-1/2 months, just for the guy to finally come back and tell me he can't make what we need. They had done some chemical analysis work on a sample of the original rubber material, but did not derive the exact formulation. I think they stopped analyzing when they realized the sample had asbestos in it :o As it turns out, he knew all along that he could not make a close reproduction, but was hoping he could make something we'd like anyway. He definitely didn't know me very well...
Vance had a lead on some decent material a while back that he had quit chasing, when my lead seemed as promising as it did. He's planning to start looking for that material again. If he can find that stuff, we will have something that looks really, really good but might be just a tad more flexible than the originals. I'm still trying to find another manufacturer on my own, just in case Vance hits a dead end in his search. Between the two of us, we should eventually find something. The question is: How long will that search take? :brickwall:
There is also still a question about how hard the original rubber seals were. All the original pieces found (whether on a car or NOS) are approaching 40 years old. Rubber, by nature, gets harder with age - and that aging process starts as soon as the material is initially cured. Sooo, the people who swear up and down that the original pieces should be rock hard could be basing their assumptions on material that is significantly harder than it was when first installed. In other words, we may be trying to search for material that is actually well past the hardness/stiffness of the rubber which Creative Industries worked with.
I still have pictures from May/June/July to post up, but they honestly don't look all that different than what you see. It's been so busy around the office here that I've not taken the time to organize the pics or write up captions for them. I'll try to do so soon...
BTW, thanks again everyone...
:cheers:
Is Dayclona's kit not correct Gene?
Quote from: Moparmatty on August 19, 2008, 10:50:05 AM
Is Dayclona's kit not correct Gene?
I could not tell you firsthand. Any comments I could make about them are merely heresay, so I'll leave that subject alone. :whistling: I did purchase a set from Dale's Cuda Shop, and they're not even remotely close to being correct (apart from the general shape of the pieces). We also tried a Pontiac vendor who supposedly had a similar product sold in full sheet form, but it too was pretty sad looking in comparison to the originals.
Right now, the nosecone is installed utilizing seals that were made from a matting material used by a local machine shop. It's not horrible looking, and beats all of the repro materials that either Vance or I have seen. Both Vance and I are holding out for something better-looking yet, and he has a sample of material made in 2007 that is dead-nuts correct from a color, texture, thickness, look & feel standpoint. The only questionable part about this particular sample is that it has a durometer reading around 77-79, and we are (or were) shooting for a mid 80s reading. If we want to use that material, we will need to track down the original manufacturer - which Vance was attempting to do in late spring.
The nosecone will be removed whenever we get a better rubber material, so that the seals can be replaced with the most correct-looking material we can find.
When you talk about asbestos, the lower K-frame diaper on the Superbird strikes me as it could be of the same material. It's flexible, but always has been relatively stiff. Mine is not a black soft rubber, but more of a tan color.
They had asbestos?!? :o
I thought they were solid rubber? :RantExplode:
mine cinda felt more like a tar paper ? best picture i could find
thats why my engine failed got cancer from the asbestos :smilielol:
The seals were 1/8" thich rubber, but with a fibrous material embedded into the rubber. If you break a piece in half, you can see the fibers sticking out (I know, since I've done this to see for myself). Some of the pieces also show fibers sticking out of the surface as well, giving the seal a speckled look. This whole timeperiod is right when the rubber industry went away from asbestos fibers, but it's very likely the fibers are indeed asbestos.
Best we can tell, the K-frame material is similar to the air seals. Whether it is exactly the same, who knows? The K-frame seal had to span a longer distance, since it was secured with (IIRC) six clips. A stiffer material would work better, but I don't know if Creative went looking for a different material for this specific piece or not. I have some paperwork that shows Creative was responsible for die-cutting the seals themselves, but so far I've found no mention of the rubber material used. There is one Material Standard number that I found reference to, but I think it is very generic in nature and doesn't give an exact specification. Incidentally, the same M.S. number is used for all the seals, including the K-member seal.
Quote from: moparstuart on August 19, 2008, 12:30:34 PM
mine cinda felt more like a tar paper ? best picture i could find
The surface of the rubber seals does have about that same texture - it's certainly not smooth. Way thicker though...
Quote from: DougSchellinger on August 19, 2008, 12:25:16 PM
When you talk about asbestos, the lower K-frame diaper on the Superbird strikes me as it could be of the same material. It's flexible, but always has been relatively stiff. Mine is not a black soft rubber, but more of a tan color.
Doug, is the tan color throughout the seal material itself, or just on the surface? I'm wondering if it discolored over time from road grime, etc., as well as having hardened/stiffened.
I've debated about taking the material that looks really close, and throwing it in an oven for a few days at a fairly low temperature to see what it would do. Whether my wife would believe me that it's just an Aerocar Shrinky-Dink is another story. :P
keep us updated on how the oven experiments and the wife come out :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: moparstuart on August 19, 2008, 01:20:28 PM
keep us updated on how the oven experiment and the wife come out :smilielol: :smilielol:
shrinky dink, man that takes me back to the 80's! :icon_smile_big:
The K frame seal on the Bird is 1/8 thick and is the tan color throughout. It has that kind of look that if you broke it that you would find fibers. Like I said, it has always been very rigid, and it's been off the car since the mid 70's. It was held on with speedometer clips.
:popcrn: :scope: I spy.
Im not sure but wasnt that seal material called masticated rubber
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/masticated-rubber-69431559-1.html
good places to start looking
Probably been mentioned before but has anyone got experiance with this vendor?
http://www.alliancelink.com/users/joshsdodge/start.html
I haven't used them myself but I do need a set for the Daytona
Quote from: nascarxx29 on August 25, 2008, 06:08:13 PM
Im not sure but wasnt that seal material called masticated rubber
Boy, have I received a crash course in rubber manufacturing terminology over the past three months... :brickwall:
Masticated rubber is a term used in the industry to describe rubber products made with a recycled ground rubber component. There is a WIDE variety of rubber that falls under this category. Sorta like walking into Lowe's and looking for "Lumber".
That ThomasNet directory was actually one of the places I found months ago. I did find a couple of vendors from there who
said they could make what I was looking for. As it turns out, the original material is almost certainly a virgin (not masticated) product with a non-woven fiber embedded in the rubber. The problem is finding a manufacturer willing to make ANY rubber product with a non-woven fiber, no matter whether it's a masticated or virgin rubber product. That's where my original source stopped. He could do masticated or virgin rubber, just not the loose fiber embed. There's this little problem of the loose fibers contaminating the machinery and the building the machinery is housed in... :icon_smile_blackeye:
So, the alternative is finding a manufacturer who already makes a similar product - and they do exist. I made some calls yesterday, and a guy is checking on the availability of some material I have high hopes for. There is one more name I've been given of a manufacturer that makes mudflaps, and they might be able to help out if this latest material lead doesn't pan out.
440mop, I don't know who Josh's uses as a supplier, but if they use Dale's Cuda Shop the seals will not be exactly like the originals. Dale's pieces are probably the right shape (I didn't compare them to the originals), but they are way too flexible, seem thicker and do not have any texture to them at all. They will work, and 99% of folks at your average car show would probably never notice the difference.
Yeah, I know - I'm too picky... :lol:
anymore word on your quest ? look at this nice dog house :smilielol:
Quote from: moparstuart on September 04, 2008, 10:00:45 PM
anymore word on your quest ?
Yesterday at 4:30pm I got the contact information for someone over at FelPro Gaskets. Someone I know has already talked with this guy from FelPro, and they apparently understand what we are looking for and think they might be able to duplicate the rubber. I am supposed to cut off a piece of the original rubber seal, and UPS it to him so they can run it through their laboratory. He seems to think that it might not be asbestos fibers, but they'll know a lot more when they get the material.
More later, after I've had the chance to contact him...
Oh yeah, nice doghouse!
Quote from: moparstuart on September 04, 2008, 10:00:45 PM
anymore word on your quest ? look at this nice dog house :smilielol:
So that's where the jack is stored.. :scratchchin:
you have to use the jack to keep the nosecone open , wing cars go so fast the nose might crumple in . :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :coolgleamA:
gene i see that the red daytona vance restored is for sale in the ww news letter , says it was a 98.6 car at carlisle
That is a really, really nice car too. I think it was officially judged at Carlisle back in the mid-'90s, although it's been displayed the last two years there. The current owner thought Danny and I were nuts the way we were poring over every little detail on his car.
The sad part is, the judging standards have likely been raised since then due to some awesome concours restorations like Dave Walden's Challenger R/T and HemiCuda before that. I'd wager that if the former Chris Sauer car (the red one in the WW newsletter classifieds) were judged under today's standards, it might not score even that high. My car probably won't score where Chris' car would be at today, since his was a 16,000 mile all-original ride - so most of his parts could be cleaned up and refurbished rather than having a ton of pitted/worn parts to replace like mine.
We'll see.
any pictures ? or it
Quote from: hemigeno on September 05, 2008, 03:16:57 PM
That is a really, really nice car too. I think it was officially judged at Carlisle back in the mid-'90s, although it's been displayed the last two years there. The current owner thought Danny and I were nuts the way we were poring over every little detail on his car.
The sad part is, the judging standards have likely been raised since then due to some awesome concours restorations like Dave Walden's Challenger R/T and HemiCuda before that. I'd wager that if the former Chris Sauer car (the red one in the WW newsletter classifieds) were judged under today's standards, it might not score even that high. My car probably won't score where Chris' car would be at today, since his was a 16,000 mile all-original ride - so most of his parts could be cleaned up and refurbished rather than having a ton of pitted/worn parts to replace like mine.
We'll see.
I believe that he thought we were crazy because we spent nearly an hour staring at the jack to his Daytona. It was either that, or the fact that I was on my belly crawling under the car getting pictures of little details. Or the fact that we looked at the one car for probably around 2 1/2 hours on the saturday last year.
I'm not all convinced that the scoring at Carlisle has changed that much since that Daytona was scored. Having looked at it just a few months ago, and seeing what some of the cars scored there this year, I'd say that the Daytona would still be in the mid 90's if it were to be scored today. Now if it went to the Nationals to be judged that would be a whole other ball game.
Danny will have to dip into his vast photo archives to get pictures of it. I had quite a few, but they were wiped out in my hard-drive crash back in April. :brickwall:
I know I'm a little behind schedule in posting pictures showing what's happening with my car... OK, I'm a lot behind schedule and there hasn't been a whole lot of progress since the flurry of activity leading up to April...
However, I have taken a few pictures along the way and they might be of some use and/or interest to folks, so I'll post them as I took 'em.
This first batch was from a trip in May that I took. At the time, they had the nosecone on for final fitment/adjustment, and for working out a nagging problem with the headlight door adjustment. When these pictures were taken, they still had not been able to get the doors to close the way they wanted them.
The fender/nosecone seals you see are the originals, and they're in halfway decent shape. I am still hopeful that a company that seems to be interested in providing the rubber nosecone & radiator flat rubber seal material can also splice some NOS seal material that I have - this will effectively "create" my own NOS set of fender/nosecone seals. As a backup plan, we'll go with the original seals.
Lots more pictures to come tonight...
More nosecone detail shots
In the last two pictures you can see what has become the bane of my existence since April. The rubber air seals that fasten inside the nosecone which force the air to go through the radiator rather than around it have proven to be a nearly impossible item to address. The original seals on my car were slightly damaged in the engine fire, but the worse problem came as the car was being disassembled. The worker who was taking the nose apart literally grabbed the old seals and ripped them off the nose right through the pop rivets. I nearly threw up when I saw him do that, as I suspected these seals would be difficult to find. Boy, was I right. The damage was already done by the time I saw what had happened, so there was no sense in screaming about it - although I sorta felt like it at the time.
The reproduction seals available through Dale's Cuda Shop may be cut to the right shape, but their texture, thickness, stiffness and even the color are so far off that I didn't even consider putting them on. The seals you see in the picture were actually cut from a pallet pad Vance found at a local machine shop. They too are far from perfect, and I have no intentions of actually leaving them on the car. Because the seals were installed with the nosecone, and the nosecone painted while attached to the car, we have no choice but to hold off on painting the car until suitable rubber seal material can be found.
I have driven myself to distraction over the past several months (well, as I've had time to chase down leads anyway) trying to find a manufacturer who can reproduce what we need. One Mfg. led me down the primrose path for about 3 months, until they finally admitted that they could not make what I needed. Gee, thanks.
At the moment, I have one manufacturer who thinks they already make a product pretty similar to the original stuff (I sent him a small section cut from my original seal material). A sample should arrive at the office either this week or next, and we'll take a look at how close it really is at that time.
There is a debate among the people I've consulted on this topic about how hard/stiff the original seal material was when installed back in 1969. ALL of the rubber guys I've spoken to have said that no matter how carefully you store a rubber product, it gets harder with age. They all say that the stiff original rubber samples I am sending them were nowhere nearly that hard when they were new. The question becomes, exactly how stiff was the material? No one can answer the question definitively, and no two sales reps answer it exactly the same way either.
The manufacturing process that determines how hard a rubber product actually becomes after curing depends on how long it is left in the mixing vat prior to being rolled through the dies to flatten it out. There is a very fine line between letting the material become as hard as we want, and letting it get too hard in the vat so that they actually have to disassemble the equipment and chisel the cured rubber off of the mixing arms, blades and vat sides. Thoughts of first degree murder cross the minds of every plant worker when that happens, so they don't usually allow the rubber batches to get close enough to the flash point - thereby reducing the possibility of it getting away from them. All I can do is beg them to make a batch as hard as their manufacturing tolerances allow, and I'll have to live with whatever the result is. It is almost certain that the new/reproduction material will not be as hard as those cars sporting original seal material, but there is also no consensus on how hard those seals were when they were new either.
What a mess...
Here are some shots of the lower valance, a wheelwell shot and one of the fender's topside
More shots of the nosecone, hood and fender fitment. I was trying to show the lengths that they were going to in order for all the margins to fit just right.
More margin/fitment shots. I forgot to mention in the previous thread that they were still trying to massage the left fender's alignment with the nosecone. No matter how hard you try, these nosecones NEVER fit perfectly. It's a game of compromise - what are you going to feel comfortable letting go... :brickwall:
More pics
Yet more pics... The last three are of the original seals that we still had. Several were still intact and undamaged, but there's almost no way to match a reproduction material to the original so perfectly that it wouldn't be noticeable. So, either they'll all be original stuff (not possible) or all reproductions (my only choice). If you have your original seals intact or already removed, protect them at all costs!!!
Some more inner fender and nosecone mounting bracket (a/k/a "crash bar") detail shots. You can see yet another section of the rubber seals that I'm looking to reproduce.
Also, I don't remember if I pointed it out in an earlier comment or not, but the regular 1969 bumper brackets were installed after the body paint was sprayed, and before the sound deadener were sprayed on. The Daytona nosecone crash bars did not cover up the old bracket's footprint exactly, so you can see the outline of the original bumper bracket left by the sound deadener, as well as the body-color paint peeking out from behind the crash bars. Details, details.
More inner fender, and backside-of-the-nosecone shots. I took the perspective shot from the engine bay just as a reminder of how small those openings are that the air is supposed to go through in order to cool the engine.
A nosecone/valance picture, from the inside, a picture of the battery tray (which was a reminder to me to tell Vance that he still hadn't swapped the battery tray out for the correct one yet), and two shots of the latch tray. Notice the textured black paint on the latch tray? That's how my car's tray was originally painted - and it's definitely not the only car to receive this treatment. We chose to go back with the same organosol-type paint, and I'm sure I'll get more than a few people telling me that it is incorrect.
Some more pictures of the latch tray and radiator yoke / hood bumper bracing, as well as another lower valance shot. You can see how they wallowed out the hole for the hood pin mounting location - guess they wanted to have enough room for adjusting it?? :shruggy:
Here are some shots of the rocker-to-fender area, and some additional detail shots inside the fenderwell itself
Here are some shots of the nosecone Z-braces from the topside. You can see more of those infernal rubber seals... :brickwall:
The first two shots are of the headlight vacuum actuators. One popular belief is that the actuators are supposed to be black. Most NOS parts are indeed black, but the original, assembly-line actuators had a weird phosphate-type coating on them. Several years ago, I stumbled across a REALLY nice set of take-off actuators from a guy who bought a '69 R/T and immediately took it dragracing. The actuators were pulled off to save weight, and had been on the shelf for 36-38 years when I bought them - they are absolutely pristine.
You can also see the vacuum lines, which are the original one for this car. They are in remarkably good shape for their age. The headlight wiring harness is a NOS regular 1969 Charger set, although it escapes me at the moment if they had to do any modifications to make it work within the nosecone. The original wiring harness was there, so they did have the original pattern to go by.
The last picture was one I took because of a question asked this past spring about how the A-pillar mouldings attached. You can see the holes on the backside of the A-pillar for mounting those.
This is one more shot of the latch tray and radiator yoke with its blackout pattern, and a couple shots of the rear wheelwells
I took a ton of shots showing how the headlight doors fit, as they were really wrestling with getting it all to work properly. Actually, Timmy (from Vance's shop) ended up redoing the entire left headlight pod/bucket because it just didn't suit them. You can see in several of the pictures that the adjustment bolt was way out on that one side.
This is the right side, that seemed to fit a TON better than the left side did.
Some more shots of the left side, including one showing how tightly the headlight pod/door came to the nosecone's opening. I took a shot of the right side, showing how it should look. In the end, they completely re-did the left side door to where it mirrors how the right side looks.
The last picture was intended to show how they had the bucket adjusted on that ill-fitting left side.
The next several batches of pictures were related to a discussion we had about how to mount the hood-to-nosecone seal. When Creative mounted the seal, they must have had a jig of some sort that laid out the holes. The holes themselves were NOT drilled, they were punched. The first three of pictures show the straight lines inside the holes - which are the original holes from my nosecone. The lines are covered up once the screws or pop-rivets that hold the seal are installed (my car used pop rivets, which is confirmed by the fact that there are no thread marks inside the holes), however, I took the pictures to show/prove that the holes were in their original locations. Why that is important will become apparent here in just a bit. The middle two pictures were taken looking straight down at the top of the latch tray, so the nosecone seal's mounting surface would be on the left side of the picture (for reference).
The middle picture shows the original seal, which has the exact same mounting hole pattern as the NOS seal I was able to find. There is a rivet/hole on the far left side that did not use that last elongated hole - and that same hole will have to be drilled on the NOS seal in order to use Creative's original hole locations (see next batch of pictures for more info & pics on this quirk).
The first two pictures show the offset margins that the NOS seal will have if it is installed using the original (remember the punched witness marks I logged) mounting holes. Creative gets the blame for this look, not Vance or his guys.
The last shot shows that the last hole will have to be drilled. The original seal also had its same far-left hole re-drilled in order to be fastened to the nosecone. This was exactly how the original seal was installed, so that's the way we're going to install mine - for better or worse.
I snapped a couple of pictures showing the original grille screen material, alongside the reproduction material from Wayne Perkins. Wayne's stuff is dead-on, exactly the same as the original. If anyone was considering getting his stuff, don't worry a bit - it gets the Vance Cummins seal of approval... :2thumbs:
Oh, and if you get one of the grille screens, you will have to do some trimming to get it to fit the frame - plus, the radius of the screen has to be bent carefully around a proper-diameter rod as it's not a sharp 90-degree corner.
I took a couple of pictures of some engine parts Vance had pulled out of his stash to use on my engine (he has some incredibly rare parts squirreled away). One of the "good" parts was the valley pan cover. There are still later-style NOS and reproduction pan covers available, but the stamped grid pattern is not the same. Apparently the OEM supplier changed the stamping in the very early '70s, as Vance has looked at hundreds of seals over the years and only seen a few new parts that matched up to the original seals he's removed. It's hard to describe the difference, but the discerning eye can spot a correct/original-style pan cover by looking at the depth and crispness of the grid stamp.
He also had original-style head gaskets and some other goodies that will be used on the engine build.
I snapped a couple of pics of the water pump housing that will be used. There was one in my pile of parts that I had assumed was a correct piece, but there are differences in the castings that showed it was cast too late for my car. Vance had several laying around to choose from, so he grabbed one with a good date and will use it.
Ever seen an NOS Charger jack label? I hadn't, until I stumbled across this - or at least David Patik and I believe it to be NOS. David had me take some pictures of the front and back for his records, and he's not aware of any reproductions that used this type of material. If there are any other experts that know what the source of this label is, I'll stand corrected if it proves to be a reproduction.
**EDIT** - DC.com member UFO believes this to be a reproduction label from Jim Osborn, as he purchased one from Osborn with the same label backing. That's the most likely source of this label, not NOS as I had believed. I'll make sure David gets the word.
Thanks for the correction, Brian!!!
I took a couple of pictures of the oil pan, showing the stamping imperfections that it has. They still smoothed out a lot of things with this pan (it wasn't in horrible shape to begin with), but there are not many stones left unturned in a restoration shop like Vance's.
The motor mounts have a date code molded into the side, and I happened to find some with nearly identical dates to the original (rather crispy) mounts.
The last picture is of the valve cover grommet. Vance had a non-HP set of valve covers with the same kind of grommet that he's seen regularly on the late-'69 model era engines. Note that it does not have the Chrysler pentastar, but instead has the DPDC logo. Bill Alphin caries a spot-on reproduction of this grommet with the correct part number and logo, although I am wondering if Vance will use that or whether he'll pull yet another part out of his stash. It's all in the details - and those little details are EVERYWHERE...
OK, this next batch of pictures kicks off the stop-off I made at Vance's shop in mid-June. The car had been moved out of the main workspace area, as they had pretty much done everything to it from a bodywork standpoint that needed to be done.
I believe that by this visit they had re-worked the left headlight door/pod to fit the opening the same way the right door had.
Since there had not been much actually done to the car, I only snapped off a few pictures at the time. I'll go ahead and post them, mostly to document what stage the car was at during that month's visit.
More pictures, including one of the battery tray (again, to serve as a reminder to me that Vance's guys hadn't switched it out to the original tray Vance had planned to use).
Last pictures from this particular visit.
Incidentally, the lower valance was originally constructed of stamped galvanized sheet metal. This explains why MANY cars had paint adhesion problems with that area. Dave H., the guy I purchased my car from, has a Daytona whose owner lost his lower valance paint after taking the car to a carwash right after he bought it. That's not the only such story I've heard from back in the day. Nowadays there are better ways to prep and paint galvanized metal, but there is no reason to push our luck in this area - so we won't be re-galvanizing the valance.
I had the chance to take my (then) 9yr old son with me in mid-July to check on the car. We had a great time, and I think he enjoyed everything but the trip through Central Illinois (my apologies to the corn farmers out there, but Jonathan was looking for some different scenery after the first hour or so...). He had lots of fun chasing Vance's shop cat around the building, although I think the cat eventually started chasing him. Mean cat...
Anyway, I mostly took pictures of Jonathan with the car, as he won't be that young forever, and I sure hope the car is not in this condition forever.
Jonathan also got a few minutes behind the wheel of the Daytona. Well sortof... :lol:
We borrowed a nearby Corvette's wheel for the proper effect.
On my next trip up in mid-September (the weekend before Monster Mopar this year), they had taken the nosecone back off the car. Since we had decided the rubber seals needed to be replaced with better reproductions, the only way to properly install a new/different set of seals is with the nosecone off. So, they went ahead and took that step. This may also have been when they sorted out the headlight door/pod/bucket problem - I forget.
Anyway, these first four pictures are of a plastic connector on the steering column wire harness that had melted from the engine fire (which also caught the interior on fire). I took some pictures to see if I could locate one myself, but Vance ended up scavenging a really nice one from a parts car he had access to.
I took the opportunity to snap some additional detail shots of the nosecone since it was back off the car. These are of the headlight actuators & wire/vacuum hose harnesses, and overall shots of the turnsignals & Z-braces.
These are some additional pics of the turn signals & housings. In the last two, you can see the spacer blocks that they used to position the turn signals just right. Danny and I have seen some old factory documentation that outlines the entire process that Chrysler went through to get DOT approval on the Daytona turn signals. It was QUITE an involved process, and included very detailed instructions about how the spacers were to be installed in the nosecone assembly process.
The first two were an attempt to show the mounting method of the turnsignals on the headlight bucket side, but there's not a good way to take that shot. You can just barely see the spacers sticking out from the turn signal assemblies.
The last two shots are just the outsides of the headlight buckets, the sides that face the nosecone sidewall.
As with the turn signals, there was a prescribed method for installing the headlight actuators. The washers you see between the actuator and the bucket were spelled out exactly. This was undoubtedly what the engineers figured out was required to get the headlight doors to open as they wanted them to.
A lot of you guys have spent countless hours trying to get headlight doors to open correctly, and I don't think I would ever have the patience to figure some of those details out. Anyway, I took some pictures just to show how these were originally assembled.
The last picture shows a grommet used to protect the headlamp wiring and the vacuum line feeds that travel inside the headlight bucket. My car had one of its original grommets, but the other one is MIA.
Some detail shots of the grommet - still need to find one of these somewhere. If anyone has ideas about where to find one or more, let me know.
You can tell from the original piece that they took a pair of snips or some other relatively blunt cutting instrument to split the grommet. Nothing fancy or sharp like a knife blade, that's for sure.
More measurement shots of the grommet I need to find...
I took a couple of pictures of the nosecone's center section mounting flange, which shows that the holes they drilled pretty much took up the whole width of the flange. They may have oversized these holes by a little bit to give them some adjustment room :shruggy:
Also, although they weren't working much anymore on the body of the Daytona, Vance's guys were beginning to organize the individual components that needed to be refinished. I snapped a couple of pictures of the parts in progress.
With the nosecone off of the car again, I had the chance to take some pictures of the inner fenders and radiator yoke areas, with the lower valance fitted into place. This is almost ready for the nosecone to be slipped back into position - once I get the blasted radiator air seals sourced... :flame:
These pictures show some of the seal mounting positions and methods. Two small sections of hood-to-nosecone seals were used on either side of the nosecone's center section. This filled the gap where the fender-to-nosecone seals ended, and that solid flange connection of the nosecone mates up with the lower valance.
You can also see how the fender-to-nosecone seals were attached (to the fender). The nosecone butts up against them, and the years of being curled around have sorta hardened my original seals into this shape. I still have hopes of "creating" my own set of NOS Daytona fender seals, but these original seals to me are a much better fallback option than the currently-available reproductions IMHO.
Some more seal fastener shots, and a gratuitous shot of the fender well. I kept getting drawn to the R4 red that they've sprayed out on the car already. Primer gray isn't nearly as appealing to look at as R4...
Incidentally, in that last picture you can see the outline of the regular 1969 Charger bumper brackets left by the sound deadener. The body color was sprayed first, the brackets installed, and then the sound deadener was applied. I mentioned this in an earlier description, but you can see it a little clearer with the Daytona crash bars removed.
They had completely disassembled the springs, and put them together with new clamps and pads. As a lot of you know, springs could either be painted or left bare. It's a whole lot easier to get a set of springs to look good painted, so that's what we did here. It would be considered correct either way AFAIK.
Here's a shot of the roll bar, and one of the latch tray waiting to be reinstalled. As mentioned before, we painted the latch tray in a textured black similar to Organosol.
The last picture (admittedly a little blurry) showed me that they did switch out the battery tray - finally!
While it hasn't been 100% detailed, they had finished the bulk of the restoration on the Dana rear axle. My car had a 3.54 (TrackPak) ratio, which should make it tolerable on Interstate runs. Hopefully I'll have the courage to get this one out and stretch its legs someday, although that might not be for a year or two after the resto is completed.
More Dana detail shots... purty...
I was rummaging around in the parts piles for a few things, and decided to snap a couple of pictures of some things waiting to be installed. The first pic is of the bumper brackets and trans crossmember, then comes the restored heater box.
Vance has already detailed the original rear brake drums, including the red paint (this is a W21 Road Wheel car). The rear drums had plenty of meat left on them, but the front drums are a lot more worn and will need replaced. Great Lakes NOS has a set of exact assembly-line matches to the original fronts, which will include the hub and wheel studs.
The master cylinder is not one that I bought. Vance bought it with some other parts a while back and was going to use it on my car before we got to checking on the differences in castings. This one has a machined boss and bolt in between the front and rear line connection ports. I do not think this is the correct master cylinder for my manual drum car, so we'll be getting a different one. The picture was taken so I could do some more research on the subject.
These are some pictures I snapped of the lower control arms. That's genuine, non-imitation cosmoline on the parts. It takes a long time to dry, but it does dry. After a fashion, that is. I've heard that you have to be somewhat careful with the "real" stuff, in that you can't use a jack without a lot of padding - and tiedown straps would probably rub/press through.
I was a little disappointed in how they finished the LCA's, as the originals were dipped up to about the last inch or two. Vance has a point in doing things the way he did, in that if you dip the arms and leave that end bare, it will rust as badly as the originals did. If you try to coat just that tip, then there is a line of demarcation where the coating ends and the cosmoline begins. If you coat the whole part, then you can potentially lose some of the detail by having too much coating on it. So, his solution is to coat the whole thing in cosmoline. I've seen LCA's with a WIDE range of dipping levels - some with almost 3 inches of "exposed" bare metal, and some with just the inch or so. I guess if they varied that wildly, perhaps some cars' LCAs are mostly coated as mine were?? :-\
You can see the colored paint daubs already applied to the arms. I didn't take a super-close picture of it just yet, but you can see the weld marks where the sway bar bracket was attached to the LCA. The burn mark bleeds through the cosmoline, and Vance always makes a point of replicating this feature. These were used control arms that my good friend Dave H. managed to provide from a parts car. Not only were they absolutely without any pitting or rust (even at the tip, so maybe they were dunked all the way!!), but they also had date codes literally within a day or two of my original control arms. Thanks again, Dave!!!
Wonder if anyone else has had this same problem with a camshaft...
The pics below are of the hydraulic roller cam that Vance ordered to use in my new engine. Something didn't look right, so he started checking a few things. As it turns out, Comp Cams "forgot" to finish the machine work! The oil passage that is supposed to go all the way through the cam bearing was only machined with the pilot hole on both sides. The hole was smaller than it should have been, was not chamfered, and only went in about 3/4" on each boss - WITHOUT going all the way through. I'd have lost that cam in no time at all.
If that wasn't bad enough, the bottom two pictures show the oil pump eccentric that was not finish-machined either. It was rough as an old cob, and that would have chewed up the oil pump pushrod.
Needless to say, Vance got on the horn and chewed some major butt with his contacts at Comp Cams. They, of course, volunteered to take the cam back and finish up the machine work. Both Vance and I were a little leery of installing the cam in my engine even after they supposedly did their job right this time, but we didn't know what else to do.
I've never had a bad experience with Comp Cams, and have used their stuff going back to the early 80s during my misguided GM/Pontiac phase...
The first picture is another of the cam bearing bosses with incomplete machining. Someone obviously fell asleep at the switch on this one...
For those who are wondering what cam specs Vance was using for my engine, I snapped a couple of pictures of the card showing all the cam's vitals. His goal was to get a stock sounding cam, that runs WAY better than stock. He's used this formula before with great results, and since he's also handling all the head/manifold porting work I think it's best to leave the cam selection up to him. I specifically asked/wanted to go with a hydraulic roller tappet cam, as that opens up a world of possibilities from increased lobe ramp speeds, longer durations, etc. which are just not possible with a flat tappet cam.
Well, that's all the pictures I have to post at the moment. Hope I haven't bored you guys to tears!
I am slated to stop by Vance's shop this weekend, so perhaps it won't take me nearly six months to post another batch of pictures this time... :slap:
Those were great Geno! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Great detail pics Gene. Thanks for posting them.
I have a trunk decal with similar marking on the back.
Judging by the part number I think I got it from Jim Osborn reproductions.Still have his catalog so I can see if it is indeed from him.
You've only got about 359 days left to get it done for Talledega..... ;)
Quote from: PocketThunder on November 06, 2008, 09:37:57 AM
You've only got about 359 days left to get it done for Talledega..... ;)
Thanks for the reminder... I think... :rotz:
While my ultimate goal is indeed making it to Talladega, I had also hoped to take it to Carlisle '09 and maybe the 'Nats depending on my work schedule this summer. That's a lot less than 359 days, but it is still very possible to do - as long as I can get some decent rubber seal material for the nosecone.
Quote from: UFO on November 06, 2008, 07:14:34 AM
Great detail pics Gene. Thanks for posting them.
I have a trunk decal with similar marking on the back.
Judging by the part number I think I got it from Jim Osborn reproductions.Still have his catalog so I can see if it is indeed from him.
Thanks for the input, Brian. I've already modified my earlier text. While my backing is slightly different than the one you have and the hand-written part number is different, the chances of it being a reproduction went up exponentially. Is Jim Osborn still in business? Hate to say it, but I've not heard of him. I'll ask David if he remembers that - and I probably shouldn't have said anything about David's opinion anyway. Every time I call him he's being pulled in about a thousand directions at once. I probably ambushed him a little with the question I posed about the decal, so he might come to a different conclusion if given enough time and a little direction on the Jim Osborn angle.
Quote from: Ghoste on November 06, 2008, 05:08:48 AM
Those were great Geno! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thanks, Ghoste!
:cheers:
Sorry to hear you didnt find the right material for the radiator air deflector seals . It makes a great story now to add to your restroration , great pictures thank for taking us along on your adventure .
That is quite a batch of photo's to post there Gene. Things look great, in my humble opinion that is. Can't wait to get a chance to swing up there again and check the car out in person again. maybe by that time they will be ready for some more painting.
Just googled him, looks like they're still around.
http://www.osborn-reproduction.com/
I bought that decal close to 20 years ago.
Hey Gene, how are you doing? She's coming along great, looking good. Can't wait to see it at Dega, or maybe sooner. :cheers:
WINGR/Steve
Hey Steve, how's it going? If you're really bored this weekend, I'll be at Vance's shop in Grand Haven on Saturday morning. C'mon by if you get the chance...
Thanks again, everyone!
:cheers:
Quote from: UFO on November 06, 2008, 06:43:01 PM
Just googled him, looks like they're still around.
http://www.osborn-reproduction.com/
I bought that decal close to 20 years ago.
The guy I bought the decal from had purchased his a loooong time ago also, which partially led to my belief it could have been a Chrysler decal. I looked at their site, and they don't offer that particular jack instruction decal any longer. Wonder why? There wasn't anything wrong with this one as far as I know... :shruggy:
I purchased a set of seals over 20 years ago that were reproduced by the owner of a very low mileage car. Only thing is, I'm not sure how fussy he was back then in obtaining exact material and I did not think (back then) to compare these with his originals. I took pics to try to demonstrate the stiffness and texture but I'm not sure if they will post well.
Hey Gene, how was your trip? Thanks for the invite, I wish I could have came out to see you and the Daytona. My to do list is still weighing pretty heavy and I am running out of time before the S word hits. How was she looking, is the paint completed yet? Look forward to more pics. Take care.
Steve
Quote from: FJMG on November 07, 2008, 11:37:03 AM
I purchased a set of seals over 20 years ago that were reproduced by the owner of a very low mileage car. Only thing is, I'm not sure how fussy he was back then in obtaining exact material and I did not think (back then) to compare these with his originals. I took pics to try to demonstrate the stiffness and texture but I'm not sure if they will post well.
Robert,
Wow, that's some pretty stiff material. Wish I could get one of the MFG's to make me something that hard/stiff in the material I've asked about. Everything seems to be a tradeoff though.
If you look at the surface graining of the seal itself in your picture, there is almost a "denim" or fabric grid pattern embedded in the rubber. In fact, the manufacturers routinely use layers of cloth literally inserted in the rubber sheets to add tensile strength and stiffness. As your pieces show, the cloth inserts work pretty well for that purpose. I had several sales reps suggest going this route if my main goal was to obtain a rigid piece of rubber sheathing, but I'm actually more interested in the look/texture/feel of the rubber than the stiffness.
The original rubber material had what the rubber guys call a "loose fiber embed" or a "random fiber insert", or terminology to that effect. I've torn a small piece of the original seal, and a lot of fibrous material will stick out. The loose fibers are all the way through the rubber mixture, which is typical for that formulation. Also, the surface of the seal is not smooth, but is somewhat pebbled - and has no pattern to it. From what I'm being told, the modern rubber formulations (and almost certainly the vintage formulations as well) with random fibers are inherently not as stiff as what they can make with the fabric inserts. Like I said, it's a tradeoff.
Vance and I were talking on Saturday, and he is still pretty convinced that the original seal material **when new** was not nearly as stiff as the 40 year old material we're examining now. That's the same thing
every single rubber sales rep has said as well. As a result, Vance is not quite as concerned with how stiff the material is, as long as they make it as hard/stiff as the manufacturing techniques allow. I don't remember if I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but the way they get the rubber to be harder is by lengthening the time the batch is mixed, allowing the curing process to proceed further in the mixing vat. There is a very fine line between letting it get as hard as possible, and having a batch "set up" inside the mixing vat before it can be removed and rolled into sheets. When that happens, they have to shut the vat down, disassemble the mixing blades, and chip the cured rubber off of the blades, mixing arms, vat sides, etc. It's a huge deal. For that reason, they don't usually push the envelope when it comes to making a batch of rubber - and there's probably little I can do to convince them otherwise. Their reluctance to go any farther on the curing process shouldn't matter in the end, as 40 years from now any reproduction rubber I manage to find will almost certainly be just as hard and stiff as the original stuff. The manufacturers of the original rubber material had the same inherent limitations in 1969 as we do now.
I'll post some pictures I snapped this morning of the original rubber material and one of the 4 or 5 different repro material samples that have been sent.
OK, here are the pictures I took this morning of the original seal material I'm trying to replicate. The first two show the overall surface of the seal material (or what I have left of that particular seal!). The third shot shows the edge of the seal, with the loose fibers sticking out. The reason the fibers are not sticking out all the way through the edge, is because I cut most of the way through the rubber with a utility knife, and tore the last little bit. It's the torn part that really shows the fibers.
The last picture is a piece of repro material that has a very close look on the outside. However, this material is roughly half as thick as the original stuff, and is so flexible that it would not be suitable for use in a K-frame seal application. It's one of the closer materials we've found as far as looks go.
Here are four more pictures I took of various edges around the original seal material. You can clearly see the embedded fibers.
From what I've been told, the fibers are not asbestos as I had originally suspected. One lab feels that the fibers are nylon, but both thought that it wasn't asbestos.
I have seen a few NOS seal pieces from Superbirds, and they seem to have a white cotton fiber embedded rather than the nylon (assuming that's what this is). It would have been easy for a material/supplier change to have occurred, as Chrysler wasn't exactly known for consistency. :P
Quote from: WINGR on November 09, 2008, 11:33:48 PM
Hey Gene, how was your trip? Thanks for the invite, I wish I could have came out to see you and the Daytona. My to do list is still weighing pretty heavy and I am running out of time before the S word hits. How was she looking, is the paint completed yet? Look forward to more pics. Take care.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Wish you could have made it by Vance's place. I thought I'd be there for an hour or so, and ended up forcing myself to leave after 5 hours so I could make it back home at a reasonable time. There is an incredible amount of information to learn about how these cars were assembled, what parts were used, and what the final product should look like. It is always a learning experience when I spend time up there.
The car was not painted, nor did I expect it to be with the missing air seals. Vance has finished up or shipped out a lot of his other projects in the shop, so I know he's itching to get going. I took another round of photos, and maybe this time it won't take me six months to post them... :icon_smile_blackeye:
Thanks again Vance, I can imagine how hard it would be to see your baby and then have to leave her there again. It will all be worth it once she's done and cruising the highbanks of talladega. Again, can't wait to see more pictures. :popcrn:
We used to use shims that looked VERY similar to those for concrete bridge beams, pre-cast. Just a lot thicker.
Beings you're in the construction trade you may know what I'm talking about. Or we use different stuff up here, although if what I'm talking about was feasible you wouldn't be looking? :shruggy:
Geno, That original material looks like the backside of a roofing shingle-the side without the grit on it :scratchchin: :shruggy:
I had a new roof put on my house in August, and I'm still finding hunks of this sh#t everywhere :brickwall:
Every piece I find has 243 nails in it :brickwall:
Can you get gritless shingle material :shruggy:...gritless roll roofing :shruggy:
Ok, I'm nuts...I'll shut up now ;) :P
Quote from: 472 R/T SE on November 11, 2008, 09:29:27 PM
We used to use shims that looked VERY similar to those for concrete bridge beams, pre-cast. Just a lot thicker.
Beings you're in the construction trade you may know what I'm talking about. Or we use different stuff up here, although if what I'm talking about was feasible you wouldn't be looking? :shruggy:
I've had a number of people suggest mud flap manufacturers as a potential source, but haven't found one to contact just yet. They too make a material a whole lot thicker than the 1/8" I'm shooting for. Maybe they'd ratchet the mill down and run a batch through for me, I dunno... :shruggy:
Quote from: Daytona R/T SE on November 11, 2008, 11:49:59 PM
Geno, That original material looks like the backside of a roofing shingle-the side without the grit on it :scratchchin: :shruggy:
I had a new roof put on my house in August, and I'm still finding hunks of this sh#t everywhere :brickwall:
Every piece I find has 243 nails in it :brickwall:
Can you get gritless shingle material :shruggy:...gritless roll roofing :shruggy:
Ok, I'm nuts...I'll shut up now ;) :P
Nope, you're not nuts at all, Chris. Fiberglass shingles have a reinforcing pattern very similar to this, but they don't come "gritless" that I know of. Good idea though.
I talked with the most recent rubber Mfg. that I'm working with on Monday. They are going to run another customer's order of what the rep feels is a suitable replacement material yet this week. The sales rep promised to send me a sample of this product to me once it's produced. That means I'll have to call next week and remind him, at which time he'll look on the schedule for the NEXT time that same customer's rubber will be milled. :brickwall:
OK, I have a few minutes this afternoon so I'll post a few of the pics taken when I checked on the car in October.
The first pic is of the battery tray. For whatever reason, I had forgotten whether Vance had changed out the battery tray to a very nice original he had from another Charger Daytona project (same as any other late '60s B-body AFAIK). Just for the record, I snapped a pic of the part number. Yep, it's the original piece and not the later-style NORS part that had been on the car for a while. There are a few minor differences besides just the part number stamping.
In the second pic, I had double-checked to see if they had drilled the extra hole for the relocated wire harness T-stud. Sure enough, they have not drilled it out yet. Since Creative installed this hole, everything would be painted prior to that particular hole being made. The other holes were punched out before the paint process, meaning they would have paint on the inside of the hole itself. Vance will drill the hole after everything is painted.
The third picture is of the latch tray support piece, which is finished to resemble bare metal. Most cars' support piece was painted black on top - usually after the piece was spot-welded to the yoke, and probably at the same time that the inner fenders/seals were blacked out. None of that blackout was applied on my car, which meant that anything left bare was pretty pitted up. They filled in the pits to smooth everything out nicely, and then shot it with a paint. It would be impossible to restore the original piece in a bare finish with all the pits, so the next best thing (in my book) is to refinish the original part. Vance could have made a new piece and left it bare, but then that would be a replacement part.
I don't know how many of you guys have noticed the left side shock towers on many Hamtramck-built cars, but a whole lot of them have a TON of heavy pock-marks where the tower was spot welded onto the inner fender. Someone hammered the tar out of this area regularly, as mine is not the first car I've noticed this on. It doesn't make any sense to me, as there really isn't a clearance problem to solve that I know of - they just got happy with the welder, I suppose... :shruggy:
Here's how the car looked on the 8th - not much different in a lot of respects overall.
The last couple of pictures were some components getting ready to be sent off. The instrument cluster looks dark because one of the prior owners (not the guy I bought the car from) took a can of black spraypaint and Earl Scheibbed the tan dashpads without masking off the bezel. :brickwall: All the dash components have since safely arrived at Performance Car Graphics for a complete rework.
The nose is all ready for action - just waiting for the rubber air seals still.
I did get an update from the latest rubber manufacturer that says they can help. It took two more follow-up phone calls after they assured me they'd have the sample sent out to me right away. Right now, they say I should get it on Monday - but I'm not holding my breath. The price is right on the material, if it's OK stuff. Exclusive of shipping charges, the worst it should cost for enough raw material to do one car is $21-28. Of course, if I need them to (and if they're willing to) mix me up a custom batch, it could be a whole lot more than that. Winter weather is coming to Missouri anyway, and this Mfg. is in the desert southwest - so I might just hop on the state bird of Texas (Southwest Airlines) and go visit these guys. Maybe they wouldn't ignore me if I was camped out in their lobby...
David Patik at PCG seems to think he has a promising rubber manufacturer close to him in Florida that could supply a suitable rubber material. He was supposed to hear back from them this week, and since David didn't call to gloat (that he found the right stuff before I did) I suspect they didn't come through for him either.
Hey Stuart, I really did dig around looking for the original turn signals from my car. These are the piles & racks I went through, and did not see them. :scope: That took a while.
Vance's guys that work in the sheet metal shop were not there that day, and these are the same ones who took everything apart. I did get a pair of good used lenses from Vance for you though.
The Dana axle tube is the original one from the car, dated in late May of '69 (they stamped both the initial machining date and final assembly dates on the tube). Looks a whole lot nicer now...
Vance pointed out that the pinion will be coming back off for refinishing. The yoke itself is a bare cast piece, and the shield is a bare stamped steel piece - not the gloss black you see here. Vance's guys on the sheet metal side were helping out with some of the component restoration work, but they didn't know to handle this part differently. No big deal. One other little tidbit... See that machined flat spot where the pinion snubber mates up? That machined area will have its black paint removed. The machining work was originally done after the black paint was applied, and you can see a little bit of this area even after the snubber is installed. It's all about the details...
I also took plenty of engine pictures, as Vance was just getting started with the final engine assembly.
More engine detail pictures. Vance is prepping the engine to run, and will clean and seal everything up nicely before starting the engine. I've asked him to break the engine in prior to painting/detailing/installing it in the Daytona, so I won't be as worried about that sort of thing once I get the car back. That'll also give him the chance to fix any seal leaks/seepage as well, which will only help the finished product.
That first picture shows what was originally the right cylinder head - where the alternator bolts up. Both Vance and I think this head had a machining or casting defect. The original and second owner complained to me that the car had a tendency to snap alternator bolts. This weird hole must have played a role in that, as something must have been out of alignment to break an alternator bolt (1st owner said it happend 4 times or more, second owner said it happened a time or two). If you look, we've swapped the location of the cylinder heads so that this end of the head now points towards the firewall. Vance is still thinking about adding some epoxy filler and machining out the hole to look normal. It's not extremely visible, but it does look weird if you can see it at all.
More engine detail shots
I received an education in oil pumps while I was there. Sharp-eyed viewers will note that the oil pump installed on the block is the "long" oil pump style, which wasn't used in 1969. Because it has taller rollers/gears, it can move a lot more oil volume than the original short style can. Since Vance is responsible for protecting the engine during the breakin period, he thought it would be better to break the engine in with the "wrong" pump, and then swap the correct one in prior to painting and detailing everything.
The orange painted oil pump cap is the correct style for '69 HP engines. Note the "Y" shaped casting differences, and the square shape of the end cap/plug - not a hex head plug.
The really dirty/cruddy pump was the one taken from the engine in my car when it had the fire.
More detail shots
Some shots of the slugs waiting patiently to do their thing... someday...
You can also see the restriction fitting placed in the oil passage. That's a must-do modification for any engine project if you want it to turn any kind of RPM's. The Oiling System had to be considered the Achilles heel of Mopar engines -IMHO.
Coming along nicely :2thumbs:
Thanks, Dave!
A few more detail shots, including one of the underneath side of the fuel pump. The Carter pumps from back in the very late '60s through VERY early 1970 had a distinctive shape, and stampings/markings. I was lucky enough to find a correct 4434 pump, but none of us feel lucky enough to say that it will last very long. Those rubber diaphragms just don't age very well even if they're not used.
Here's a subject you probably haven't heard much about lately... Wheel Weights.
The original factory wheel weights from that period mostly had a distinctive "diamond L H" stamping to them. You can also see in this picture that there is almost always a paint mark right above where the original wheel weight was installed. Chrysler still does that to this day, as my '07 truck has the same paint mark on the sidewall where each wheel weight is installed.
Vance had a couple of original/intact spare tires and wheels, which show the wheel weight and paint daub mark remnant. He thinks he has a lead (no pun intended) on a stash of weights with these markings, so hopefully we can actually/properly balance the restored wheels and NOS tires I have squirreled away.
More detail shots, including one showing the factory's original lifting brackets attached to each engine at the Trenton engine assembly plant. These brackets were in place when the engine was painted, and were usually removed as the car was being assembled. That means there should be a small bare spot where the engine bracket was. Vance will replicate this detail once the engine is ready for painting (after break-in).
I put the shot of assembly-line-correct lug nuts in there just for reference. My car had road wheels, so I'll be refurbishing a set of chrome lugs for it, but I had never seen what correct pristine steel wheel lugs look like. The reddish lug is the left-hand thread, of course.
The last picture is of a freeze plug. We were going to try and replicate the small diamond pattern found on the original freeze plugs, but there are two problems with that: hiding the "P" already stamped on this plug set, and creating the new mark accurately. To avoid having visible evidence of this, he'll just apply a liberal amount of paint over the plugs to help obscure the detail. These are somewhat hard to see anyway.
More engine shots, including one of the totally un-touched VIN pad. This will remain just as you see it - totally un-touched (apart from paint). The casting date of the engine, as you can see, is several months prior to its engine assembly date on June 6th. That's a little unusual, but not unheard of.
The last pictures are of a set of new exhaust tip hangers. The repros I had found/bought (from Mitchell?) just don't look quite like the originals. This set that Vance had laying around will work perfectly. Note the burn/weld marks still visible...
Quote from: hemigeno on November 26, 2008, 06:41:21 PM
Hey Stuart, I really did dig around looking for the original turn signals from my car. These are the piles & racks I went through, and did not see them. :scope: That took a while.
Vance's guys that work in the sheet metal shop were not there that day, and these are the same ones who took everything apart. I did get a pair of good used lenses from Vance for you though.
awesome thanks . PM me what i owe you and i'll send you a check
Quote from: moparstuart on November 26, 2008, 07:48:01 PM
awesome thanks . PM me what i owe you and i'll send you a check
Vance gave them to me for free, but you can have them at double that price :P
I'm not gonna let you pay me for something that didn't cost me a cent. Now delivery is another story... :lol:
Here are some pictures I took of the Engine ID pad. It reads:
E 440 (but, note the different fonts used in the two "4" stamps... very weird)
6 6 (almost looks double-stamped, but there is no other date numeral so it's gotta be 6/6/69)
HP2 (just means HP engine, assembled on the 2nd shift)
Dave B.'s formerly-owned Daytona was scheduled for a 6/6/69 build date, and he already knows that was a Friday. Since the engine was assembled on 2nd shift, I've wondered if the guy that stamped the engine pad had a snootful by the time this block got to him... :lol:
looking Good Geno :coolgleamA:
Thanks, tan top!
Here is the flywheel we're going to use. It's a Hays steel piece, rather than an original C.I. style. Even before Vance and I had the discussion, I was already in favor of going with an aftermarket piece like this, mostly for safety's sake. Vance has repaired several cars recently whose stock flywheels grenaded. One Challenger T/A owner actually told Vance to put another stock flywheel back in, even after he tore up the transmission tunnel, firewall, plastic cowl air vents and even his hood!!
Personally, I would much rather know that the flywheel is going to stay in one piece. I have been known to miss a shift or two :icon_smile_blackeye:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 26, 2008, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on November 26, 2008, 07:48:01 PM
awesome thanks . PM me what i owe you and i'll send you a check
Vance gave them to me for free, but you can have them at double that price :P
I'm not gonna let you pay me for something that didn't cost me a cent. Now delivery is another story... :lol:
ok great should be about $50.00 for shipping ,handling and packaging .
Here's some eye candy for you... the restored jack assemblies.
I'm still grateful for the help Pete Veight (Wingnut426) gave me in researching the jack bearings, and for eventually supplying the right bearing. :cheers:
I remember going over the cars original details The engine casting date was 5- 20- 69 SPD was 606
Quote from: moparstuart on November 26, 2008, 08:08:55 PM
ok great should be about $50.00 for shipping ,handling and packaging .
You've been buying a lot of things on eBay lately haven't you? Or is it YearOne that's done you wrong? :rofl:
We'll discuss the shipping, handling and packaging fees at the next Wing Car Club restaurant outing... in the meantime, you'll be getting a package in the mail one of these days.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 26, 2008, 08:11:48 PM
I remember going over the cars original details The engine casting date was 5- 20- 69 SPD was 606
Yep, that's what I had written down. Your old car's engine had an assembly date of 6/11 or 6/12 IIRC though, which means the car itself could not have been assembled on the Hamtramck line on 6/6 (not when the engine still had another 5 days to go before it was assembled and shipped from the Trenton plant to Hamtramck, which according to Frank Badalson took another +/- 7 days). Since our cars had such similar Broadcast Sheet Sequence Numbers, only 24 apart, I have guessed that they were probably built somewhere between the 15th and the 20th of June. That's just a SWAG though...
Comin' along nicely.
Hmmmm, roller cam-valve reliefs on the pistons may look stock but I bet there's going to be a little more bark to it than originally.
Ever been told that a wing adjustment bolt HAD to look "just like so"?
The last three pictures are all of original/correct wing adjustment bolts, showing three different head patterns and three different shoulder(?) lengths. So, there could very easily be some variation in what bolts were installed in a car. They're all the same basic size and shape, but there are differences.
Found my untouched 22 K mile motor shot out car by SPI .The Engine pad also showed a inverted A as I believe was for 0.20 overbore
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/motor69daytona.jpg)
My wing adjustment bolt was all splines as one shown all the way to the right.But there could have been different vendors
Quote from: UFO on November 26, 2008, 08:26:30 PM
Comin' along nicely.
Hmmmm, roller cam-valve reliefs on the pistons may look stock but I bet there's going to be a little more bark to it than originally.
Thanks Brian!
Hopefully there's a LOT more bark in it... :yesnod: There's always more that could be done, but a lot of other improvements would require intake and exhaust modifications - which are just not part of the plan for obvious reasons.
Vance is trying to get as much as he can while maintaining a reasonably-stock-sounding idle.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 26, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Found my untouched 22 K mile motor shot out car by SPI .The Engine pad also showed a inverted A as I believe was for 0.20 overbore
Those red springs are usually a tell-tale sign of an original valvetrain, and with that few miles on it, it should have been untouched. Do you remember what the engine assembly date was - the 11th or 12th?
In case anyone is wondering or hadn't noticed yet, I'm definitely not worried about making sure the internal components of the drivetrain are NOS/correct/stock, etc. There will be a set of Harland Sharp rockers on top of the CompCams springs - which don't have any red paint on them. Oh well, the increased performance and longevity makes that a VERY acceptable tradeoff for me.
I think it was 611 .But I took a paper tracing of all kinds of those special numbers throughout the car.Will see I f I can find it
Quote from: hemigeno on November 26, 2008, 08:31:02 PM
Quote from: UFO on November 26, 2008, 08:26:30 PM
Comin' along nicely.
Hmmmm, roller cam-valve reliefs on the pistons may look stock but I bet there's going to be a little more bark to it than originally.
Thanks Brian!
Hopefully there's a LOT more bark in it... :yesnod: There's always more that could be done, but a lot of other improvements would require intake and exhaust modifications - which are just not part of the plan for obvious reasons.
Vance is trying to get as much as he can while maintaining a reasonably-stock-sounding idle.
A 500+ stroker kit will work.
Afterall all you don't want to just injure the bugs in the grille best to annihilate them.
The first picture shows what the original wing adjustment limiting pins look like. These can't really be seen once the wing is installed, but they'll be visible during the assembly shots.
The last two pictures are of the special engine mount bolts that have a "38" stamped in them. There's also a characteristic knurling in the thread at the other end as well. Frank Badalson now has some nice reproductions of these, but Vance had a couple of awesome originals that will be used.
it reads E 440
A which is clocked 180 from this position
6 11 HP
Quote from: UFO on November 26, 2008, 08:40:40 PM
A 500+ stroker kit will work.
Afterall all you don't want to just injure the bugs in the grille best to annihilate them.
:smilielol:
I actually did talk to Vance early on about putting a stroker crank in it. The reason we collectively agreed to keep things at +/-440cid has to do with the limiting factors of carburetion/intake/head & port design/exhaust. If we could make significant improvements in those areas somehow, then the additional CI's would be more than welcome by yours truly. The performance prospects aren't too great in expecting an Olympic weightlifter to breath in and out through a straw.
I like your way of thinking though... :2thumbs:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 26, 2008, 08:42:24 PM
it reads E 440
A which is clocked 180 from this position
6 11 HP
Thanks for looking that up, Dave!
I got alot saved images here the trunk as car is restored.Cant say if that strip of gray felt is there were the front end of bumper jack post rested.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/HPIM7509.jpg)
I took some shots of the steering column, which has been restored. Seeing the whole thing standing on the NOS steering wheel I had supplied made me cringe, but Vance assured me the slight scuffs from the carpet will come right out... Sure hope so...
More steering column closeups, including a really nice used electrical connector Vance found and cleaned up.
I'm liking that shifter. :drool5:
That shifter was one Vance used on the GTX he raced in his high school days. It looked bulletproof :o You should see the size of the shift rods - they had to be 5/8" or bigger... HUGE...
I was asking him about his tranny mods, and whether he did the "take out every other gear" routine like some do. He said that if you paid careful attention to setting up the shift linkage and adjusting it properly, and making sure that the transmission gears/synchronizers were set up properly, he had NO problems slamming that monster shifter through the gears. I'd still wager that he probably lunched a gearset or two... :lol:
Column looks like what I have seen the shield still there and that flat black cloth type tape.And double ended ground wire to column to support.You should have.I see it now
Just a few more pictures left to go...
The first is a picture of a new master cylinder. Vance and I did some research to make sure that the casting type is exactly the same as my original. The manual M/Cs have a date code stamped in the snout or end of the casting, but the vast majority of the ones we studied had undreadable stamps. Even the brand-spanking-newbie that we had was unreadable. Anyway, the casting we found is identical to the old one in every way, so that's what we're using. We also confirmed that my original cap was gold anodized, as most of them were. Vance had seen a few oddballs that were more silver in color, but the majority of caps were the usual gold.
The middle pictures are of the horn's date code and some original battery caps that Vance has been saving for a project like mine. There are little minor details absolutely everywhere on these cars.
The last picture is of the transmission tailshaft seal. This one is correct, except for the drain hole that Vance still needs to add. For whatever reason, the replacement seals did not have the drain hole - even though this one is correct in every other way. Guess MaMopar didn't trust the mechanics of the day to install the hole down?? :shruggy: Anyway, 2 minutes with a leather punch and Vance will have this one in perfect shape to install.
Well, that's all the pictures you guys probably care to look at for now. I'll post a few more of a Swiss Cheese Special IIIGen Charger. Makes how my car started out look like a gravy train...
Nice attention to detail and workmanship there doing on your car. :2thumbs: :2thumbs:Those details can be trying.I had to find better tire stem caps that had the wording dill on them from.Junkyard untouched spares.Needed better radio supressor mounts in front of coil.Tracking down 1095 GE brakelights.Original tail light cover that didnt have ripped mounting holes.Far as the engine goes you cant see what improvements are done under the valve covers for added insurance
Gene, you lucky dog. I didn't know that Vance had some of the original caps to a battery there. I remember we were talking about that when we were looking at another car. Seems that he has done a lot of the little detail work to the car since the last time that I made a trip up there to see it with you. Looks like it is getting closer and closer to getting painted, and then the real fun of putting it all back together.
Danny, when we were looking at that original battery earlier this year at Paul's place, I only knew what to look for on the caps from what Vance had shown me. He had taken this set of caps out from a bin to point out the details, but hadn't said anything about letting me have them for my car until my last trip up. :woohoo:
Ah I see. I hadn't ever seen an original cap until we were up there at Paul's. And I definitely hadn't ever seen an original battery until then.
The little details that you guys are going to duplicate on your car Gene are the things that I like/love looking at. You know me, heck I'd spend all day crawling around to look for some odd ball thing that 99 our of a 100 people could care less about. Its okay I'll admit it I'm crazy.
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post all the resto pics. For all the stuff you guys take for granted, I've learned so much. These are by far my favourite type of posts where we can all follow the restoration at home all on one thread.
Keep up the great work!!!
Dave
Quote from: Beep Beep Dave on November 28, 2008, 11:04:05 AM
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post all the resto pics. For all the stuff you guys take for granted, I've learned so much. These are by far my favourite type of posts where we can all follow the restoration at home all on one thread.
Keep up the great work!!!
Dave
Coming from a 69.5 6-pack guy (I only THINK I'm detail oriented compared to you guys), I consider that a great compliment. A lot of what I've learned and absorbed over the years has been from people willing to share their experiences and observations on Moparts, the A12 Restoration Forum - now entering its second year (http://a12mopar.com/yabb/YaBB.pl) :cheers: - and elsewhere. There's always some little inane detail that pops out that I never knew or noticed before.
Thanks, Dave!!
Quote from: hemigeno on November 28, 2008, 11:44:26 AM
Coming from a 69.5 6-pack guy (I only THINK I'm detail oriented compared to you guys), I consider that a great compliment.
:yesnod: Yep, the undisputed Mopar kings of obsessive restoration. Which is a compliment btw.
They are pretty nuts on the details that they follow over there. Although I gotta say though that the threads over at Moparts aren't quite what they used to be before it became a general restoration section. I like details, and I look at odd ball things, and I take pictures of odd ball things, but man there is a whole group of people like that with the A12 cars. Maybe I should try to save my money to buy one of them so that I can finally fit in somewhere. :smilielol:
They aren't exactly cheap anymore either.
A old friend of mine has about 4 M Code Bees. So I follow them. Dont know about this one I turned up on a search
http://www.racingjunk.com/post/1358830/1969-440-Six-Pack-Super-Bee-A12-parts-car-.html
I also like those obscure forgotten factory correct resto details/ documentation factory paperwork etc and the stuff you find and learn about on these boards about these special cars .The lift off hood cars do have known ties to creative industries.Bob Mc Curry who is known for the wingcars.Did a intro letter on the 6 pack cars
http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/superbeepromoad.html
Today I received a sample of the reproduction rubber seal material. The texture looks spot-on, and there are loose fibers scattered throughout the entire thickness. There are three basic problems with the sample though...
>> It's still too flexible for my liking, although I'd live with it if I had to
>> The fibers are not as visible except at the edges, and then you can tell that the fibers are tufts of cotton or something similar and not fiberglass-like (asbestos-like??). The pattern looks very much like some NOS Superbird seal material I've seen.
>> There is a little bit of a glossy sheen to the surface, although that might be alleviated with a solvent or a simple scrubbing
What do you guys think? (batch one of two)
Some comparison shots next to the original material
I'd say thats the closest so far :2thumbs: with some wear and time it might look identical . With time it should get stiffer also .
:scope: looks pretty close :yesnod:
What Stuart says it needs to be exposed and aged .looks good
Ever see a new hood under pad .And after sometime you dont recognize it .
Hey I have to agree it's pretty close and after awhile it will be even closer. It sure looks alot better then the regular thin rubber seals that are out there.As thick as it the sample is you wouldn't think it would be too flexible. The originals are probably alot stiffer just because of their age, right?
WINGR
Quote from: hemigeno on December 01, 2008, 08:24:29 PMWhat do you guys think? (batch one of two)
I think you are as detailed as you can be on this restoration but you might be starting to split hairs on this one. :Twocents:
Quote from: PocketThunder on December 02, 2008, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on December 01, 2008, 08:24:29 PMWhat do you guys think? (batch one of two)
I think you are as detailed as you can be on this restoration but you might be starting to split hairs on this one. :Twocents:
seeing gene i think he's pulling the hairs out :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: moparstuart on December 02, 2008, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: PocketThunder on December 02, 2008, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on December 01, 2008, 08:24:29 PMWhat do you guys think? (batch one of two)
I think you are as detailed as you can be on this restoration but you might be starting to split hairs on this one. :Twocents:
seeing gene i think he's pulling the hairs out :smilielol: :smilielol:
:pullinghair:
Been there, done that... :lol:
Quote from: PocketThunder on December 02, 2008, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on December 01, 2008, 08:24:29 PMWhat do you guys think? (batch one of two)
I think you are as detailed as you can be on this restoration but you might be starting to split hairs on this one. :Twocents:
Point taken, Paul. As much as I'm trying to get things just right, it is still an
attempt to reproduce a look that the car had for a very brief period in time. Even when the car is as finished as it's going to get (they're never totally done), it will neither be 100% new again nor perfect.
For better or worse, I'll still end up making every attempt to replicate as many details as correctly as can be, with the materials I have at my (and at Vance's) disposal. That probably puts me only one notch below OCD... :P
Quote from: moparstuart on December 01, 2008, 08:28:20 PM
I'd say thats the closest so far :2thumbs: with some wear and time it might look identical . With time it should get stiffer also .
We may try to help expedite the time and wear you mentioned a little. I had already asked some of the rubber guys about methods to aid in post-vulcanization curing, and there are a couple of ideas we intend to try. The salesman is supposed to be sending me another couple of samples to play around with. Of course, that same salesman's secretary is now sending my calls straight through to voice mail :whistling:
So your a whole step away from OCD Gene? I would have figured that me and you both were less than a half step away from being declared OCD. That is when it comes to cars. I heard all about it today when my wife got home, and I had forgotten to do something she had asked me to do 2 days ago. I quote here "How do you forget this stuff? If it had been some VIN to a Daytona out in California that Gene called you about, you'd still remember the fender tag information." By the way I don't recall you and I talking about any Daytona's in California, I'm pretty sure she was being hypothetical, because if she wasn't man I forget the information already. Man I'm starting to forget everything these days. :hah:
Just as guilty on that front too. D'ya think we'd qualify for full disability if we actually achieve OCD status? Think of how much more time there'd be to go checking out cars all over the place.
It would be a pretty sweet deal to actually not have to miss work and miss out on money to go look at cars. It would even be nice to go look at a car that I could actually afford for once as well. But who cars, I love :drool5: over any of the aero cars.
thanks gene got a nice box from you today :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Glad you got the box OK, although it wasn't anything super-special. I hope those lenses polish up, as I didn't look at them really closely. Vance still thinks he has a few old parts that could be of some use, and if he finds 'em I'll let you know.
:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: thanks again
So, with the economic downturn, and hearing rumors of some restoration shops feeling the squeeze, I'm wondering what kind of effect this might have on your Daytona restoration?
:shruggy:
Rumors are just that... Sure hope there's nothing happening that I haven't heard about!
My next planned visit is this weekend, so I'll have another update then. Jonathan and I are supposed to have another father/son road trip, weather-permitting.
Although the weather didn't necessarily cooperate (they got almost a foot of new snow in the 24 hours before I hit town), Jonathan and I did manage to trudge our way to Vance's shop on Saturday. The south side of Chicago that we travelled through had a fair amount of ice in the trees, etc. but overall the main roads were quite passable. The southwest Michigan back roads were pretty snowpacked still on Saturday, but they thankfully didn't get any ice.
I will try to post the pictures from the trip on Friday if I have time. The big news is that the engine is now running!
Almost just as important as that, is the discovery David Patik and I have made in the rubber seal area. David sent me an email yesterday reporting the results of some experimentation on a section of the seal material. According to David, we may have stumbled onto a process that will replicate the stiffness of the original rubber seal material almost perfectly! David had already given the stuff I found a B+ to an A- grade, with the only "problem" being the flexibility of the repro material. If that's now fixed as we think it could be, David scores it as an A+... In fact, we've ordered up a quantity of the repro material so that David can crank out a set or two of prototype seals for my car. Once he's confident that everything looks/feels right, he may start offering sets of these seals for sale again.
There is still the nagging issue of what to do with the nosecone to fender seals. While I was at Vance's, I collected all of my fender seal pieces - including the original Daytona seals. My originals are OK, but there are some fairly visible scratches and scuff marks, plus the rubber is not very flexible anymore. I might take a quick plane trip out West to personally visit a laboratory that may be able to help out with the "creation" of a new set of fender seals identical to the originals. That whole issue moves to the front burner if the radiator air seal material problem is settled.
Anyway, I'll post the pictures and other details after Christmas.
Here are a few pictures of the engine set up on a test stand. I heard it run for a few minutes while I was at the shop, although there are still some bugs to work out with the carburetion and distributor. By initially running the engine out of the car, they can check for leaks - plus tuning on it is a lot easier without having to worry about scratching up fenders or fender scoops.
The engine is in primer at the moment, until everything is sorted out on the engine. Vance is still going to take the engine to a dyno shop, but he didn't want to do the initial break-in under a heavy load. The first thing the dyno shops want to do is drop the hammer and see what she'll pull... Not the best for fresh valve springs, which need to be slowly/gently heat cycled a time or two to finish the annealing process.
Some pictures of the Harland Sharp rocker assemblies... those rocker shafts are enormous! Having roller bearings at the shaft plus roller tips is probably overkill. Overkill is right up my alley though! :P
We had the valve covers off because the adjusting nuts were making light contact with the valve cover baffle on the driver's side. When Vance first fired the engine up on Thursday (it only ran for maybe a couple of minutes this way) he could feel the tapping and knew something was not quite right. A quick attitude adjustment with a large steel punch took care of things quite well. Vance and I checked the passenger's side just to be safe, but there was no indications of contact on that side.
Looks good . :2thumbs: original detail ?That isnt the starter your using is it
I think the starter is just a functional one that Vance had laying around. He mentioned that he still needed to send off the date-correct starter and alternator to be rebuilt.
Even though the alternator looks new -- which it is --, it has some issues that need to be addressed in one of the case halves. If you look closely at the stator (the round ring in the center that looks like a bunch of thin plates stacked together), there is a gap at the edge between the stator and one of the case halves. The reason for this gap appears to be that this case half was not drilled/machined to receive the locating pins. When the case was bolted together, this actually caused that case half to develop some very small hairline cracks at the bolt bosses from not being flush with the stator. It's something that should go away if properly repaired, so it will be sent off with the starter. They will disassemble the alternator case, do the necessary machining, clean everything up to show standards, and reassemble the unit. A lot of "NOS" parts were in fact rejects from the supplier or assembly line bins, and this one was probably not used because of that unusual gap. It's the right assembly number and has a useable date code, so it'll be installed no matter what.
These are a couple more detail shots, including a shot in the last picture of the #8 cylinder spark plug bracket. What is on the engine right now is one of the repro sets from Frank Badalson. They're pretty good overall, but Vance is going to scrounge up a good set of used brackets from one of his sources. The #8 rear bracket isn't "tall" enough to clear the exhaust manifold, which causes the bracket to kick out a little. That's one of the ways to tell a repro bracket set from an original set.
motor looks good :yesnod: ..... :popcrn:
The first picture is a closeup of the starter that is on the car right now. Somewhere I have pictures (or at least I USED to have them before the hard drive took a dump last spring) that show the difference between the Chrysler gear reduction starters. I think I swiped those pictures from Moparts anyway, maybe someone else has a picture/diagram? Allen??
The last two pictures I took to remind myself about the transmission input shaft and bellhousing. Vance checked the alignment on the original bellhousing to the replacement block, and it needed to be adjusted about 0.005" to be perfectly centered. With the use of this replacement shortblock assembly, a different crankshaft was used as well. Sharp-eyed viewers will notice that the crank does not have a pilot bushing installed, as this block/crank was originally installed in an automatic-transmission vehicle. While that wasn't noticed until right after the rotating assembly was installed (Vance forgot this wasn't the original engine), it will actually end up working out for the best. I'm not sure who sells it, but someone makes an actual roller bearing that fits into the end of the crankshaft. That's what is shown in the last picture sitting on the end of the tranny input shaft. One way to install this bearing is to drill out the crankshaft enough to allow the input shaft to clear the crankshaft, without having to worry about the machining tolerances necessary if the normal Oilite-style pilot bushing was installed. In the end, the input shaft has greater support, with a smoother-acting actual bearing. The shortcut method would be to shorten the end of the transmission input shaft, but that will be left intact on my car.
One more engine detail shot, by the distributor. I think I took that shot to point out the clay-red boot on the coil wire. For whatever reason, those odd-colored boots are found a lot on original HP engine coil wires later in the 1969 model year. More than a few A12 6-pack cars have them, but the coil wires are not ALWAYS red on those, or Daytonas, or other HP engines. This is a new set dated the 2nd quarter of 1969, and it had the elusive red boot. Vance wanted to run the engine with these in place to make sure they still work, after all these years.
I also took a couple of pictures of suspension components that are ready for final detailing and installation. After bugging Dirk B. (70426RTSE) and a couple of other folks about how they have been able to clean up original parts, I bit the bullet and purchased 30 gallons of Evapo-Rust. Several of the bare steel components will be dipped in the Evapo-Rust, which seems to produce near-miraculous results in cleaning everything up and leaving a great-looking bare metal finish. They'll still have to protect the metal somehow with either cosmoline or some other clear protectant, but the goal is to get the right look on everything without sacrificing longevity if at all possible.
The last picture is the fresh black wrinkle finish applied to the air cleaner housing. It honestly doesn't look sparkly, that's just the camera flash. I thought I had a pretty nice used housing, but it didn't look THAT nice...
If the starter had ears the 2 end bolts it was later model .There was retro articles in the magazine archives
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive.html
http://allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical3-starters.html
Most original coil wires have white script whereas the plug wires are that yellow color....I'll have to check the boot color out - I have a bunch of original wires in a box I call "Box - O - Wires" :icon_smile_big:
Every starter I have seen on Daytona's is the earlier casting # starter...I will post the casting number on the weekend - number escapes me at present.
That motor looks like it will make some noise! :2thumbs:
This site had resto correct details .Maybe some starter details
http://www.mmcdetroit.com/2007Events/
my trend micro anti virus detector says this file has a trojan in it .
Quote from: hemigeno on May 23, 2008, 06:12:23 PM
These are yet a few more shots of the rear glass area. Vance will still paint the original Charger sail panel areas in color coat even though the headliner will cover everything up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I sure wish someone made those jagged pieces to hold headliner tight. ???? anyone know
:notworthy:
just to beat the rear axle bumper discussion to death did you find white painted stripes on yours? there was one stripe running from front to rear (as they're mounted on the car) in the ribbed section on the GTX I'm working on--the paint even survived the glass beading I used (which worked phenomenally well, by the way.)
what I have is pinstripe width--i could take a picture of it if I remember my stupid camera...
Quote from: BigBlockSam on December 27, 2008, 01:21:24 AM
:notworthy:
No Kidding!! Geno is setting the bar at 18' in the pole vault.
I see they even partially painted the battery cable in primer just like the final product gets partially painted with color.. :icon_smile_big:
You can go overboard easily on certain details .Did you know on 4 speed shift rods the excess threads were wrapped with a skinny paper tape.I had seen this a few times .And emailed Roger Gibson who recalled this tape on the shift rods
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 26, 2008, 11:21:53 PM
Most original coil wires have white script whereas the plug wires are that yellow color....I'll have to check the boot color out - I have a bunch of original wires in a box I call "Box - O - Wires" :icon_smile_big:
Every starter I have seen on Daytona's is the earlier casting # starter...I will post the casting number on the weekend - number escapes me at present.
That motor looks like it will make some noise! :2thumbs:
OK - Checked on the starter #'s - Me (a few Daytona's), Gibson and Badalson have pretty well seen starter casting # 2095219 on original Daytona's.
Darn - Forgot to forrage thru my "Box-O - Wires" :brickwall:
Re the tape on the shift rods. Discovered that on the 'Cuda Roger did for me a few years ago...Also have them on my '70 Challenger. It was thin strips of the black cloth "friction" tape (or as we Canucks call it - Hockey tape).
Never found any on any pre-70 stuff but that's not to say it didn't happen.
Sorry for the delay in getting back - been a busy weekend...
Thanks, everyone, for the compliments - although I can't take a whole lot of credit for the work that's being done. I'm learning through this process like most of us are, and digging into the what's and why's of the details is one of the most interesting things for me.
Just as a point of clarification... the starter that is on the engine is not the date-correct used starter I had given Vance for use on the completed engine. The correct starter is still sitting in a box somewhere waiting to be sent off for restoration, even though I had suggested to Vance very early on that it was OK to have components like this restored and sitting on the shelf. It's not a big deal though, as changing out the starter is a snap - and it won't hold up the rest of the engine testing, painting or detailing. If that is indeed the later style starter in the pictures, I'm not surprised since Vance works on an awful lot of later E-body stuff.
It never hurts to find out information on the correct parts though - thanks, Jim, for digging up that info on the casting number. Part numbers are easier to find, but casting numbers sometimes only come from looking at correct vintage parts. I recently got an education on Hemi direct-drive starter nosepiece casting numbers, and that came with a lot of help from other folks in a similar fashion. :cheers:
Same goes on the coil wire details you shared. I THINK the coil wire on this NOS set has yellow lettering like the rest of the wires, but I honestly didn't pay attention to that detail. The large-size picture files unfortunately didn't show a picture of the coil wire's lettering. Hopefully I'll remember to look next time, but my guess is that this set's lettering is yellow. Were ALL of the original coil wires you've seen the white-lettered types, or were they mixed? I know I didn't mess with this set at all - the plug wire itself is straight from the parts package. A lot of you guys already know that there is often a difference between NOS replacement parts and factory-used assembly line parts. This could be a classic example of such.
Quote from: pettybird on December 27, 2008, 10:54:58 AM
just to beat the rear axle bumper discussion to death did you find white painted stripes on yours? there was one stripe running from front to rear (as they're mounted on the car) in the ribbed section on the GTX I'm working on--the paint even survived the glass beading I used (which worked phenomenally well, by the way.)
what I have is pinstripe width--i could take a picture of it if I remember my stupid camera...
Doug, I had picked up one of the axle bumpers to look it over, and there was no white or other striping on it that I remember seeing. I don't know what method Vance or his guys used to clean the bumper up, and it could be that a light sandblasting removed any evidence of such. I'll try to remember to ask about the stripe (whether he's seen such before) next time I talk to him. Vance handles all of the finer detail work on the parts himself, so what Tim & Joey had done may not reflect how the part eventually looks.
Quote from: superbirdtom on December 27, 2008, 12:30:39 AM
I sure wish someone made those jagged pieces to hold headliner tight. ???? anyone know
I honestly don't know who - if anyone - reproduces them at the moment, although someone may already be doing so. It looks like something Chris (Daytona R/T SE) could fab in his sleep though. Someone has undoubtedly come across a solution to the problem before now.
Quote from: PocketThunder on December 27, 2008, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: BigBlockSam on December 27, 2008, 01:21:24 AM
:notworthy:
No Kidding!! Geno is setting the bar at 18' in the pole vault.
I see they even partially painted the battery cable in primer just like the final product gets partially painted with color.. :icon_smile_big:
Thanks Rene & Paul - but there are some guys on here and elsewhere who have done excellent jobs with their cars (Aero and otherwise) as well. The bar was already set that high through their work, and I'm just hoping that my pole doesn't break and that I hit the mat on the way down. I think the biggest reason I'm putting myself through the excruciating process called concours-restoration is to be able to educate myself and others how and why the cars looked the way they did when new. This thread helps with the learning process, and the finished product can hopefully serve in the same capacity - to serve as an (admittedly flawed because it has been restored) example of the finer details these cars all had when new.
Oh, and I found it interesting that the negative cable was shot in primer as well. Same thing for the ground cable at the rear of the engine. I suppose if you're going to create the proper paint outline around the cable ends with bare metal underneath, you'd have to install the cable before priming. The wire insulation would get a coating of primer for the same reason the originals were blasted with engine-color paint... it was in the way of the paint spray.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on December 27, 2008, 04:47:20 PM
You can go overboard easily on certain details .Did you know on 4 speed shift rods the excess threads were wrapped with a skinny paper tape.I had seen this a few times .And emailed Roger Gibson who recalled this tape on the shift rods
Can't say that I've observed that phenomenon myself, but I wouldn't doubt it. I would, however, be curious to know the purpose of that tape. Would it be to preserve the threads so that the rods could be easily adjusted in the future? You'd think that if it was for inspection purposes that a paint daub would have served just as well and taken less time. I'll ask Vance if that is a late 1969 detail in addition to '70+.
Hey Gene.
The white lettered coil wire must have been an assembly line deal - Have not personally seen it in NOS wire sets....But never say never!
All the taped shifter rods I have seen on cars I own or have owned have been on E-Bodies. I guess because the shifter is a lot further back than a B-Body. The factory had to adjust them and remove them (1-2, and 3-4 rods) because the rods pass through a loop(?) in the tunnel...Once installed, the taped swivels on the rods are still in perfect adjustment. I have some pics somewhere :scratchchin:
A lot of parts are randomly marked during inspection. Some cars a lot - others not so much. I had a survivor 'Cuda that had a white stripe on every single body plug on the car! My guess is some worker forgot to put in a few once and the foreman was busting his chops to mark each one. A lot of parts were color coded as well....I have seen bumpers with and without a paint code. There is no 100% firm answer here.
When you come up I got a bunch of stuff to show you.
Car is looking good - You are going to drive it...right? :yesnod:
Jim, thanks for the info on coil wires, and I'm not surprised to hear that it's an assembly line thing. Yet one more topic I need to do some research on... Your explanation on E-Body shift rods makes sense, and that might mean it wouldn't be applicable for a '69 B-body. I'll dig around some and see if anyone knows more on the subject.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 29, 2008, 08:42:42 PM
When you come up I got a bunch of stuff to show you.
I'm looking VERY forward to that trip, although my camera isn't...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 29, 2008, 08:42:42 PM
Car is looking good - You are going to drive it...right? :yesnod:
To answer your question, yes and no. When the car is fresh off its restoration, I'll probably resign it to temporary trailer queen status. How long that lasts, I don't know. My fear isn't as much that something will get damaged, as it is that I'll not want to spend the time cleaning everything up again to concours-level standards. After the car has gone through Carlisle (and MAYBE the 'Nats) judging once, I'll not worry as much about that sort of thing. One of the things I REALLY liked about Vance Cummins was his desire to see the finished cars driven as much as possible. He told me a story about Harold Sullivan almost freaking out over a dent put in one of his Hemi E-bodies from driving it. Vance says he told Harold he would fix the dent for free, just to prove a point that driving the cars does not ruin them. Almost anything you can do to the car can be repaired. I liked that philosophy a lot, and plan to put it into practice not too long after the car is done. Although, I won't be cruising the backroads on this 40 year old set of rubber tires I bought... :o
One piece of good news I received today is that the rubber radiator air seals will officially be on order either Friday or Monday. The manufacturer thinks they can get the material shipped out around the 16th of January. David Patik may be able to get the seals cut out, properly cured to match the original stiffness, and delivered to me before the 29th of January - which is the date I'm heading north to Vance's shop again.
Another huge development from a discussion with David P. today is that he gave me some pointers which may allow the original fender-to-nosecone seals to be refurbished to the point they could be reused. THAT is a relief to me, as I have been getting increasingly worried that I was not going to be able to "create" a new set of seals as planned. Once we figure out that the process works, I'll outline what was done.
If the rubber air seal and nosecone seal issues are resolved, there is not too much keeping the car out of the paint booth. That's great news... :boogie:
I also talked with Vance today (and I'm sending him another link to this thread so perhaps he'll chime in :scratchchin: ). While I was bugging him about some other stuff, I asked about the axle bumper striping that Doug mentioned. The originals did indeed have a white ink mark on them, as Vance has observed that before. Like I suspected, he has not detailed everything just yet, and that was on his list of things to do before installation on the framerails.
He also said that all of the original coil wires he's seen had yellow lettering to match the spark plug wires. He specifically remembered that Chris Sauer's Daytona retained its original coil wire, which had the single red boot and yellow lettering. That's not to say coil wires never had white lettering, but it was definitely not an exclusive trait - plus, to Vance's knowledge (and mine too, FWIW) the coil wire is no different internally than any other spark plug wire. More research to do here, but I'm pretty comfortable that the wire on the engine is fine to use. Question for Jim B... What do the DocTona and DiscoTona have on their coil wires (are they still the originals)? I haven't checked Jim McCauley's F5 car for that, but you'd think it would be another good one to look at.
Vance knew about the friction tape on the shift rods, but he too pointed out that it was an E-body quirk. He agreed that it could have been to hold the rods' adjustment in place as they were passed through the transmission support's "tunnel".
That's all the updates at the moment...
I think my old 440 daytona which had H269 in yellow lettering on the wires .Had the coil wire and boot as mentioned.Might have some pictures .I even seen the shifter rod tape on a friends survivor paperwork documented 69 340 speed AC Vinyl top Fastback Formula S Barracuda
Quote from: hemigeno on December 31, 2008, 07:26:18 PM
He also said that all of the original coil wires he's seen had yellow lettering to match the spark plug wires. He specifically remembered that Chris Sauer's Daytona retained its original coil wire, which had the single red boot and yellow lettering. That's not to say coil wires never had white lettering, but it was definitely not an exclusive trait - plus, to Vance's knowledge (and mine too, FWIW) the coil wire is no different internally than any other spark plug wire. More research to do here, but I'm pretty comfortable that the wire on the engine is fine to use. Question for Jim B... What do the DocTona and DiscoTona have on their coil wires (are they still the originals)? I haven't checked Jim McCauley's F5 car for that, but you'd think it would be another good one to look at.
Hey Gene,
Doc and Disco... LOL.
Doc still has all of its original plug wires - 2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them. Unfortunately 'Ol Doc put the 6-Pack on and put on a generic longer wire for the relocated coil and the original is gone. Disco had early 70's Mopar orange wires so that's a no-go as well. I checked with Frank and Roger and they have seen both white and yellow on the coil wires - so it is not white only. Most of the ones I have had were on Hemi's which may or may not mean anything as a couple were on 440's. I have some white ones here. As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built".
Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada :cheers:
Wow Geno..
I haven't visited this thread in a while.. Your engine's looking spot on man.............. Things are looking great.................
Troy
Thanks, Troy!
Your own engine install is going good I see. :2thumbs: One of these days I'll have a little more progress to show too.
Speaking of which, the rubber manufacturer just told me that the air seal shipment is expected to arrive at David Patik's place on Friday the 23rd. David may not have enough time to cut everything out, process it and have it shipped to me before my next trip to Vance's on the 30th, but the pieces will be in Michigan very early in February. :ricky:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 01, 2009, 10:55:15 PM
Doc still has all of its original plug wires - 2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them.
Jim, dumb question here - should there have been engine paint on the plug wires? Was it from where the plug wires were installed while the engine paint was still wet? Just curious...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 01, 2009, 10:55:15 PM
As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built".
Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada :cheers:
Very true quote from Terry. I'm still relieved to know that the white lettering isn't the accepted "standard" on a late-built '69 440-4. Vance was pretty convinced that yellow lettering is quite normal, but weird stuff happened all the time back then - and that whole mid/late 1969 period was one of the worst for quirks.
286 days till Talladega.. :whistling:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 20, 2009, 01:51:17 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 01, 2009, 10:55:15 PM
Doc still has all of its original plug wires - 2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them.
Jim, dumb question here - should there have been engine paint on the plug wires? Was it from where the plug wires were installed while the engine paint was still wet? Just curious...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 01, 2009, 10:55:15 PM
As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built".
Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada :cheers:
Very true quote from Terry. I'm still relieved to know that the white lettering isn't the accepted "standard" on a late-built '69 440-4. Vance was pretty convinced that yellow lettering is quite normal, but weird stuff happened all the time back then - and that whole mid/late 1969 period was one of the worst for quirks.
Funny thing about the paint on the plug wires - that is usually a Hemi thing. Maybe I can have a close look at the wires and contact points on the engine and figure something out. I'll show you the wires when you guys roll in - we should start a list of questions/show and tell etc. Pack your mink-lined Speedo's - It has dipped pretty darn low a few times up here! :rofl: Actually I noticed St. Louis hasn't been very tropical either :o
White lettered coil wire vs yellow was random on Hemi's and have been found on a few 440's.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 20, 2009, 06:40:13 PM
Funny thing about the paint on the plug wires - that is usually a Hemi thing. Maybe I can have a close look at the wires and contact points on the engine and figure something out. I'll show you the wires when you guys roll in - we should start a list of questions/show and tell etc. Pack your mink-lined Speedo's - It has dipped pretty darn low a few times up here! :rofl: Actually I noticed St. Louis hasn't been very tropical either :o
White lettered coil wire vs yellow was random on Hemi's and have been found on a few 440's.
I remembered the engine paint on the plug wires being a hemi detail, as nearly all of the engine assembly work was done at the Marysville plant - including test-firing the engine, IIRC. Whether or not 440s had their distributors and plug wires installed while the engine paint was still wet, I don't know. I seem to remember that some of the engine accessories were installed at the final assembly plant (e.g. Hamtramck), but you'd think the 440 engines were already earmarked for which distributor it was to receive by the time it left the Trenton engine assembly plant. Might be a good question for Frank Badalson sometime.
It could be remnants of something Creative Industries did too, as not much could surprise me from that outfit... :o Might be something as simple as the worker adjusting or laying a blanket across the engine that still had wet paint on it? :scratchchin: :shruggy:
Schedule some warm weather next week would you? The border guards may not let me across since I don't have mink-lined anything much less a Speedo. Maybe I'm just culturally-deprived, I dunno... :lol:
I gotta admit that I'm actually happy that Gene doesn't have a Speedo, I don't think I"m that close of a friend to know information like that. :slap:
I'm hoping the car is inside something a little warmer than the barn we looked at the 500 in Michigan in then if its that cold up that way. Either that or maybe this time I'll acutally bring a coat. That might be a good idea.
Worry not lads - The cars are in a warm building and Doc will be on a 2 post lift. Leave the Speedo's at home! :2thumbs:
Seems every trip I make with Gene other than in June/July time of the year its a snow storm. Either that or they have an ice storm. Can't seem to catch many breaks on trips so far.
Here's a short update on the status of my car:
The replacement rubber air seals have been delivered/installed, and were described by Vance as "perfect". They took some effort on David Patik's part to get just the way we wanted them, but in the end I think they're as good as we could ever have hoped. Vance was also able to refurbish the original fender-to-nosecone seals up to a point that he said they're very close to NOS condition. That took some effort and time as well, but finding new seals (I've held NOS seals, but they weren't for sale) or making my own "new" set (couldn't find anyone who would splice or fuse new '70 Charger seals to replicate how the original seals were made) proved to be impossible.
The car has been moved over to the "clean" side of the shop, and is being readied for the paint booth. They've re-installed the nosecone and are re-blocking most of the body panels to make sure everything is laser straight.
I still haven't had time to resize and re-name the pictures I took on my last stop-off at Vances, but there wasn't a whole lot new to look at anyway. Mostly axle and brake hardware details, plus a few other assorted components. I think I was in too much of a hurry to visit maxwellwedge's place to dwell on my stuff anyway...
So Gene the question is, how hard are the rubbers that were installed? 70 or a 90-95? I'm nosey ya know.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 24, 2009, 05:56:34 PM
I think I was in too much of a hurry to visit maxwellwedge's place to dwell on my stuff anyway...
so is david going to be making more of the correct nose seals forsale ?
Quote from: moparstuart on February 24, 2009, 09:09:06 PM
so is david going to be making more of the correct nose seals forsale ?
Yes, but I don't know exactly when. I supplied a rather large roll of rubber stock to David, who definitely has intentions of offering the repro seal sets again. You'd have to talk with him to find out if the sets are "officially" available or not, and whether or not he'll consider hardening another set in the same fashion he did mine. I think he was hoping to wait until summer (long story).
Quote from: 69_500 on February 24, 2009, 06:02:51 PM
So Gene the question is, how hard are the rubbers that were installed? 70 or a 90-95? I'm nosey ya know.
I don't know the exact durometer reading of the material we installed, but the untreated material sample they sent early on tested out at 71-74 depending on the exact place the test was made. My guess is that the stuff we used was maybe 80-85 on the scale. Well less than 90+ though. There's more to the story about why we settled on this particular level of "stiffness", but that's another story for another day.
BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim... :lol: Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car
Sweet !!!!!!!
"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim... :lol: Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"
Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! ;D
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 25, 2009, 09:59:13 AM
"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim... :lol: Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"
Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! ;D
Is the checker floor in the shop just black squares and raw concrete? :scratchchin:
Quote from: PocketThunder on February 25, 2009, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 25, 2009, 09:59:13 AM
"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim... :lol: Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"
Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! ;D
Is the checker floor in the shop just black squares and raw concrete? :scratchchin:
Yes and no. It is all white epoxy paint with the black painted over the white - It looks a lot nicer when I take a floor buffer machine to it but everything would need to go outside for hours. Not an option this crappy winter. ;D
heck with the polishing just get some RaceDeck pieces
Quote from: mauve66 on February 25, 2009, 08:06:54 PM
heck with the polishing just get some RaceDeck pieces
I don't need to polish it - I need to clean the floor better because it is a working shop with engines, suspensions etc. everywhere. I would rather buy car parts than pony up for 5000 sq. feet of that stuff - It would look trick in my house garage though.
oh i thought that was a personal garage, i agree waaaaaaay too expensive for a place that does work for a living
Quote from: mauve66 on February 25, 2009, 09:01:29 PM
oh i thought that was a personal garage, i agree waaaaaaay too expensive for a place that does work for a living
Well.....It is my personal garage - All the work (mechanical only) is me playing with my cars. Everytime one is finished another one is pulled apart so I don't know if I will ever have a "showroom" only area. I enjoy working on them as much as I enjoy driving them. No dis though - that stuff looks cool. How much is it a sq. ft?
Quote from: moparstuart on February 24, 2009, 09:09:06 PM
so is david going to be making more of the correct nose seals forsale ?
Update
David Patik sent me a note today, and he will definitely be offering the air seal sets for sale. I think he said he could send orders out sometime around March 10th, but that's his deal. Figured some of you guys might want to know, and it'll probably be mentioned in one or more of the Aero car newsletters as well I'm sure.
:cheers:
Gene I gotta say the picture of you and the DocTona, makes you look like your wearing some "overalls". My wife saw the picture and got a little chuckle out of it.
He used those to cover up at the border.
HEMIGENO,
I am sure someone may have asked this but just glancing through the post I missed something - why a gray engine - is that the one that is gong into your Daytona?
Quote from: Daytona Guy on February 27, 2009, 01:41:45 AM
HEMIGENO,
I am sure someone may have asked this but just glancing through the post I missed something - why a gray engine - is that the one that is gong into your Daytona?
Dane,
The engine just has a primer (primer/sealer?) on it - not the color coat. A gray engine would definitely be a little out of character in a Daytona. We obviously didn't want the metal to rust, but we also didn't want to break in the engine with it's finish coat of paint either. That way, we can seal up all the little leaks and take care of any other problems without having to touch anything up. It does look a little odd now though, doesn't it?
Quote from: 69_500 on February 26, 2009, 09:43:44 PM
Gene I gotta say the picture of you and the DocTona, makes you look like your wearing some "overalls". My wife saw the picture and got a little chuckle out of it.
No overalls - just a standard-issue contraband smuggler's costume. Apparently that's how Olga & Friends at the border crossing took it...
Another update on the car's progress... I talked with Vance today, and the car is being masked off for the paint booth. They've spent the last several days blocking and sanding everything - the nosecone was done three more times. First thing to be sprayed will be a mixture of DP50 and DP90 to get about the right color for theprimer.
After priming certain areas they'll install things like the radio antenna (or at least the base/bezel). Yep, he had intended to replicate the look in the picture that Jim/maxwellwedge had posted of the DocTona's antenna hole. I did remember to ask about it, and that is indeed the normal treatment. The Creative Industries guys weren't able to mask off that antenna base perfectly, so the gasket & base will end up having a thin line of body-color paint around the bottom. The hood pins will also have a line of paint around their washer/nut on the topside, as they were already installed and masked off when Creative painted the front end too.
Lots of little details being attended to, and I'll probably only pick up on a portion of what he'll have done.
Here are the pictures I took in late January at Vance's shop. The first three are of the brake hardware on the driver's side. We are still scrounging for some correct brake shoes, but until we find those, these parts-store shoes will get the car stopped if nothing else.
Another detail Vance is looking to change is the retainer caps for the shoe locator springs - the originals did not look like these, and he is trying to go through some old boxes to see what he might have. In the meantime, these will work.
Notice the parts ID color codings, and the copper tint to the wheel studs. He's observed all of these on low-mileage examples, but these particular marks weren't documented from my car. When the original parts have deteriorated to the point that you can't make out the original inspection/ID marks, the best thing to go by are the untouched/unrestored cars with those kinds of marks that do still remain. Some people really get worked up about this type of thing, but I'm a realist. We're doing the best we can with what we have to work with.
More brake/axle detail shots, of the passenger side this time. The third shot shows that shoe locator spring retainer/cap that I was talking about. I don't think the originals had that hexagon shape on the "inside" of the cap, or at least I think that's what Vance had identified as the "problem". The last picture shows the bleed screws, and the bare metal color of the wheel cylinder showing through.
Here are some shots of the Dana60 gearset. Vance said that it was in really good shape overall, and that a few bearings & gaskets were all it needed - plus resetting the preload, etc. The ring gear was dated in February, but the clutch set was stamped 5/19/69. All of these were originals.
The first is a picture I snapped of some reference pictures Vance had taken and printed off (on regular paper anyway) of my axle's right-side tube after cleaning the crud away and before blasting it clean. Not every ID mark had vanished over the years, as this one was still left. He'll put this inkstamp back in the same location since we know where it went.
The other pictures show some of the pinion details, and replicated white-daub inspection mark. The Dana60 pinion itself was left bare metal, but the cast piece and the integral stamped steel shroud/shield were different shades. He's tried to replicate the look, and it does look nice. 8-3/4 axles had a white splotch of paint on the pinion itself, but Dana's got it on the side.
The first two pictures have to do with the pinion snubber. Right now the rubber bumper itself is not installed, but an assembly-line-correct piece has been found and will be used. The center section casting of the Dana had provisions for the mounting surface where this pinion plate was attached, but the whole assembly was painted before the mounting surface was machined flat to receive the plate. The second picture shows how Vance has cleaned off this pad to show machining marks. Even though the plate stays put and effectively hides this little detail, he has not skipped any steps. A good coating of cosmoline should prevent the bare metal from rusting.
The last two pictures are of some components, the first one being the axle brake line. Dana axles got a specific brake line for whatever reason, which is about 3/4" longer than an 8-3/4 axle's. The longer fitting/connection may be where the extra length comes from, but it's a specific part. That last picture is of the U-Joint straps. I had always thought that these were early dates and wondered if they had been replaced, but after looking at the original straps from Jim's DocTona (which had mid/late '68 dates too) I am not surprised to see these dates at all. They are supposed to have the "H" stamping too.
These next two pictures are of the refurbished VIN tag. I'm sworn to secrecy as to how he was able to make it look like that... :-X Not too shabby, I thought.
The last picture is of a steering knuckle/spindle - which has yet another date code :brickwall: If you look in the bottom right corner of that piece, you'll see a cast "69" still evident.
So Gene when is the next trip up to see the car? I wanna get some pictures of it once before its all done. Its been a year since I made a trip up there with ya.
good detail pictures Geno :yesnod: nice work going on :2thumbs:
Here is a pic from my 13000 mile Hemi-X. Doc and Disco are the same. Notice spring colors (short - black, long - pink) and shape of hold-down cups. Notice color on the sides of the original shoes. Backing plates are zinc-phosphate.
Left side added.
Sweet ride Hemigeno :cheers: :drool5: I can only dream of a winged warrior.
looks good .I was able to find a engine shot of my daytona with original H269 yellow lettered plug wires.and there is engine paint on them.What did you find on Jims cars
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/100_2493.jpg)
Quote from: hemigeno on January 21, 2009, 07:39:51 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 20, 2009, 06:40:13 PM
Funny thing about the paint on the plug wires - that is usually a Hemi thing. Maybe I can have a close look at the wires and contact points on the engine and figure something out. I'll show you the wires when you guys roll in - we should start a list of questions/show and tell etc. Pack your mink-lined Speedo's - It has dipped pretty darn low a few times up here! :rofl: Actually I noticed St. Louis hasn't been very tropical either :o
White lettered coil wire vs yellow was random on Hemi's and have been found on a few 440's.
I remembered the engine paint on the plug wires being a hemi detail, as nearly all of the engine assembly work was done at the Marysville plant - including test-firing the engine, IIRC. Whether or not 440s had their distributors and plug wires installed while the engine paint was still wet, I don't know. I seem to remember that some of the engine accessories were installed at the final assembly plant (e.g. Hamtramck), but you'd think the 440 engines were already earmarked for which distributor it was to receive by the time it left the Trenton engine assembly plant. Might be a good question for Frank Badalson sometime.
It could be remnants of something Creative Industries did too, as not much could surprise me from that outfit... :o Might be something as simple as the worker adjusting or laying a blanket across the engine that still had wet paint on it? :scratchchin: :shruggy:
Schedule some warm weather next week would you? The border guards may not let me across since I don't have mink-lined anything much less a Speedo. Maybe I'm just culturally-deprived, I dunno... :lol:
Dave - My wires had the exact same paint remnants. I wonder if the paint on that rubberized wire bracket never fully cured and when the engine got hot the paint transferred on the wires? Maybe the car plant ended up painting some engines then dressing them up? Either way - that's two like that so far...
Questions... Where were the asembled engines painted, and who dressed out the engines with all the accessories? I had always thought they were painted at the engine plant but dressed out at the Assembly Plant, with the exception being Hemi engines (always have to have at least one exception, right?).
:scratchchin:
My original owner got talked into joining the scat pack club at some point.And the car ended up with factory chrome valve covers that had all the correct wire guides plug brackets etc .I got all his memorabila off him at time of purchase .There was also scat pack decal on both my wing uprights.As to the bracket wire paint transfer seems likely .That the first time it was running the heat softened the paint
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2009, 06:00:22 PM
Questions... Where were the asembled engines painted, and who dressed out the engines with all the accessories? I had always thought they were painted at the engine plant but dressed out at the Assembly Plant, with the exception being Hemi engines (always have to have at least one exception, right?).
:scratchchin:
Well - the popular opinion is what you said. I just threw that out there as a guess to explain this paint on the 440 wires and to get the troops thinking! Maybe someone at the plant did this on random engines just so he can laugh at us being freaked and puzzled 40 years later. :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 27, 2009, 05:18:20 PM
Here is a pic from my 13000 mile Hemi-X. Doc and Disco are the same. Notice spring colors (short - black, long - pink) and shape of hold-down cups. Notice color on the sides of the original shoes. Backing plates are zinc-phosphate.
Left side added.
Jim,
Thanks for the pictures - that kind of reference information is absolutely invaluable. Just today I got the quote from a NOS parts supplier for a boatload of stuff, which I think includes all new brake hardware. At least now I know what to make sure he's supplying.
Thanks again!!
:cheers:
Dude - We are all in this together! :2thumbs:
Hopefully those kind of documentation pictures of Jims and whom evers reference car .Will be in a magazine or on here to reference and learn more details from
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 27, 2009, 06:10:02 PM
Well - the popular opinion is what you said. I just threw that out there as a guess to explain this paint on the 440 wires and to get the troops thinking! Maybe someone at the plant did this on random engines just so he can laugh at us being freaked and puzzled 40 years later. :lol:
There's no doubt that some of those assembly line workers have probably chuckled a lot over very simple things that we've tried to explain away. This may be one of them.
The intriguing thing to me is that both engines had paint in the same place on the wires, and both were assembled about the same time. The engine from Dave's former car had an assembly date of 6/11, and Doc's was 6/6, right? It makes some sense that less-than-totally-cured paint from the rubber wire holder didn't grip as well on the loom and instead rubbed off on the spark plug wires when the wires were installed. I don't know how long it was between when the engine was painted/assembled and when the wires were installed, but it was almost certainly more than a few hours - unless we've all made the wrong assumption about when/where the engines were painted and dressed out. Maybe the paint they used didn't cure very well until it got hot?
:shruggy:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 27, 2009, 06:17:56 PM
Hopefully those kind of documentation pictures of Jims and whom evers reference car .Will be in a magazine or on here to reference and learn more details from
It'd take a book to cover everything. Ain't no magazine editor alive that's going to devote the kind of pages it would take to cover all the little nuances of a true survivor car - and Jim has several great examples.
The original paint I heard was not acrylic enamel but straight enamel. I bet it took a few heat cycles to bake on hard.
Quote from: 69_500 on February 27, 2009, 05:02:35 PM
So Gene when is the next trip up to see the car? I wanna get some pictures of it once before its all done. Its been a year since I made a trip up there with ya.
Danny, I hope to be going back one of the first three weekends in March, but it remains to be seen which one it will be. Have to check with the family's Social Director first :angel:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 27, 2009, 06:24:27 PM
The original paint I heard was not acrylic enamel but straight enamel. I bet it took a few heat cycles to bake on hard.
That makes perfect sense, and is probably the explanation to the whole mystery. You'd think that anywhere a spark plug wire made direct contact with a rubber-tipped loom it would have that same look. Oh, and I remembered that I was supposed to take pictures of all the 440 spark plug holders when I was up at your place. Yet one more thing I forgot to do... :brickwall:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2009, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 27, 2009, 06:17:56 PM
Hopefully those kind of documentation pictures of Jims and whom evers reference car .Will be in a magazine or on here to reference and learn more details from
It'd take a book to cover everything. Ain't no magazine editor alive that's going to devote the kind of pages it would take to cover all the little nuances of a true survivor car - and Jim has several great examples.
It was mentioned early on about Jims daytona and a magazine article commitmants took priority.Didnt know how much reference type material would be available in whatever issue.Its due to come out in .And as said no magazine is going to devote alot of pages of reference details.So thought there would be sharing of the knowledge and pictures to reference on here to view.Or perhaps maybe available in this format as seen as Roger Gibson site were he sells a indepth detail reference documentation tape of car of interest
Worry not Dave, whatever they don't publish will be exclusive to DodgeCharger -dot-com!!! :yesnod: ;D
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: Ready to max out the computers hard drive :yesnod:
Put out a How to book and make some money.
All this time your giving away this info when you could be raking in the dough LOL
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2009, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 27, 2009, 05:18:20 PM
Here is a pic from my 13000 mile Hemi-X. Doc and Disco are the same. Notice spring colors (short - black, long - pink) and shape of hold-down cups. Notice color on the sides of the original shoes. Backing plates are zinc-phosphate.
Left side added.
Jim,
Thanks for the pictures - that kind of reference information is absolutely invaluable. Just today I got the quote from a NOS parts supplier for a boatload of stuff, which I think includes all new brake hardware. At least now I know what to make sure he's supplying.
Thanks again!!
:cheers:
Hold the phone there Big Guy.....These are 10" brake photo's I'm posting.......Are yours 11"? If so, I'll take some pics of my 69-1/2's
Yep, both of my cars are 11" manual brake jobs.
Quote from: UFO on February 27, 2009, 08:20:14 PM
Put out a How to book and make some money.
All this time your giving away this info when you could be raking in the dough LOL
Rake in the ...DOH!
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2009, 08:52:49 PM
Yep, both of my cars are 11" manual brake jobs.
Hey Geno... Are you refreshing all the original hardware and adjusters for yours or getting new ones? If the later, where are you getting them? I'm ready for this step on the '68.......
Troy
Those unique details as to my daytona and Jims daytona having engine paint on the plug wires .And those type of discoverys are more interesting than the common resto decals gloss flat finishes and platings etc .Though as important.It has been done and researched .But finding and comparing these oddities.I find fascinating to save on the computer compared to the regular common knowledge resto details that would fill a library.I probably had the only daytona that had no rear seat buttons on one side. But had its right buildsheet.And I like finding factory blooper line shortage lazy worker details.As this is the forum.And here is where we do it as in.
A place for fans of the Dodge Charger to learn, share, and hang out A place for fans of the Dodge Charger to learn, share, and hang out.
www.dodgecharger.com/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/DCP_0069.jpg)
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 27, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
Hey Geno... Are you refreshing all the original hardware and adjusters for yours or getting new ones? If the later, where are you getting them? I'm ready for this step on the '68.......
Troy
Troy,
Vance has a stash of new hardware that he pulled most of the little pieces from. The brake shoes, as mentioned earlier, are generics from a Parts Store that I hope can be replaced with some correct pieces, but at least aftermarket shoes are available. There are a couple of places that sell brake adjusting hardware sets on eGag, but I can't say how correct they are to be honest.
On my car, I'm sure a few other pieces need to be changed out to be "concours correct" too, and I'll wait to see any pictures Jim comes up with for 11" brakes to make sure everything's up to snuff. The wheel cylinders are the original housings after being cleaned up. Vance had some new cylinders that didn't have the correct look on the housings, but the innards could be changed out - so that's what he did. New guts in the original housings.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 02, 2009, 09:30:50 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 27, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
Hey Geno... Are you refreshing all the original hardware and adjusters for yours or getting new ones? If the later, where are you getting them? I'm ready for this step on the '68.......
Troy
Troy,
Vance has a stash of new hardware that he pulled most of the little pieces from. The brake shoes, as mentioned earlier, are generics from a Parts Store that I hope can be replaced with some correct pieces, but at least aftermarket shoes are available. There are a couple of places that sell brake adjusting hardware sets on eGag, but I can't say how correct they are to be honest.
On my car, I'm sure a few other pieces need to be changed out to be "concours correct" too, and I'll wait to see any pictures Jim comes up with for 11" brakes to make sure everything's up to snuff. The wheel cylinders are the original housings after being cleaned up. Vance had some new cylinders that didn't have the correct look on the housings, but the innards could be changed out - so that's what he did. New guts in the original housings.
I guess I better get to work on those 11" brake pics...Where is that jack?
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 27, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on February 27, 2009, 08:52:49 PM
Yep, both of my cars are 11" manual brake jobs.
Hey Geno... Are you refreshing all the original hardware and adjusters for yours or getting new ones? If the later, where are you getting them? I'm ready for this step on the '68.......
Troy
for us non-concours guys it's all available at parts stores... Auto Zone has it all.
Gene just curious here, but what parts are you wanting pics of on the 11" brakes? The insides? spring colors and such? I'll see if I happen to have any of the 2 500's that I took pictures of during the tear down stages.
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
yeah...rear shoes and the three brake hoses are on the list of changes for the Petty bird this spring...all are original, as well.
Quote from: 69_500 on March 03, 2009, 09:03:07 PM
Gene just curious here, but what parts are you wanting pics of on the 11" brakes? The insides? spring colors and such? I'll see if I happen to have any of the 2 500's that I took pictures of during the tear down stages.
Danny, any pictures of an 11" original brake setup would be of help.
:cheers:
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
I remember the locking washer detail, but haven't asked if Vance has any of those in decent shape to put on. Knowing him, he has a little stash of them somewhere - that sort of thing seems to be his specialty.
Hope all is going well with the resto. I had someone from another site point me here to get some info on Vance and then another member said he heard that he closed his shop. What is the real deal? Thanks
Chad :scratchchin:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 04, 2009, 10:56:17 AM
Quote from: 69_500 on March 03, 2009, 09:03:07 PM
Gene just curious here, but what parts are you wanting pics of on the 11" brakes? The insides? spring colors and such? I'll see if I happen to have any of the 2 500's that I took pictures of during the tear down stages.
Danny, any pictures of an 11" original brake setup would be of help.
:cheers:
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
I remember the locking washer detail, but haven't asked if Vance has any of those in decent shape to put on. Knowing him, he has a little stash of them somewhere - that sort of thing seems to be his specialty.
Geno,,
I'm going through my 11's on my '68 Hemi right now.. Here's one pic of the front 11x3's.. I'll see if I can come up with the rears.. Basically the same except you have the addition strut, anti-rattle spring & parking brake lever.
Troy
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
Hey Jay...
Troy here... Which locking washers on which studs are you referring to? I'm collecting missing parts now for my 11"'s............
T
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2009, 07:16:33 AM
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
Hey Jay...
Troy here... Which locking washers on which studs are you referring to? I'm collecting missing parts now for my 11"'s............
T
Hey all. I will try to pull out my Daytona this weekend and pull off a rear drum, i made a mistake calling those RETAINING washers locking washers :brickwall: I will be taking pics as i go. I need to look at the brakes anyway as there are only 40 years old and im driving it as if it were a new car. :icon_smile_big: Jay.
I think my daytona had them .They were a thin metal washers .Pushed on over the stud .So brake drum wouldnt fall off during assembly
All Mopars had the on the rear drums - usually 2.
Hey Geno!
Just checking in on your Daytona progress. Fatherhood and a house purchase have taken a bite out of my Charger time but I am slowly getting back into the swing of things.
Can't wait to see the finished product. :2thumbs:
Quote from: 694spdRT on March 13, 2009, 11:34:02 PM
Hey Geno!
... Fatherhood and a house purchase have taken a bite out of my Charger time but I am slowly getting back into the swing of things.
Join the crowd !!! :lol:
Geno..
Here is my rear manual 11's........ With the help of Julie.. Excuse the axle.. :icon_smile_big:
Good to see the kid is using the right tool! Good work Julie! :2thumbs:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 15, 2009, 08:11:15 PM
Good to see the kid is using the right tool! Good work Julie! :2thumbs:
Daddy learned the hard way, Julie will learn the easy........ experience...........
Quote from: nascarxx29 on March 13, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
I think my daytona had them .They were a thin metal washers .Pushed on over the stud .So brake drum wouldnt fall off during assembly
These ?
Gene,
Not to sound redundant, but if your gonna put the clip on it, why worry about nos brake shoes.
ps- I might know of a set of 11" shoes nos. I'll ck in the morning
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 15, 2009, 07:57:45 PM
Geno..
Here is my rear manual 11's........ With the help of Julie.. Excuse the axle.. :icon_smile_big:
Troy where are your self adjust levers and cables?
you built the rears using the fronts as a guide?
Quote from: pettybird on March 15, 2009, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 15, 2009, 07:57:45 PM
Geno..
Here is my rear manual 11's........ With the help of Julie.. Excuse the axle.. :icon_smile_big:
Troy where are your self adjust levers and cables?
you built the rears using the fronts as a guide?
On the B-body HD and police 11", there were no self-adjusters. Self-adjusters came on the 10"s and the 11"'s on C-bodies. The service manual and parts book both verify this. The '68 service manual doesn't have a 11" HD / police figure, but the '69 service manual does, no self-adjusters. I was thinking of putting them on, but since I've never had a problem with Dana's 4-wheel drum, I decided to go back OEM to this car..
Troy
PS: I"ll add this to my Charger thread, no sense in hijacking Geno's thread.... :)
That's weird--the 11" brakes on the '67 Hemi GTX I'm doing here had them--
that's what's shown in the '67 manual, too.
<---has nothing but disc brake cars at home...
Quote from: madchad on March 12, 2009, 11:29:50 PM
Hope all is going well with the resto. I had someone from another site point me here to get some info on Vance and then another member said he heard that he closed his shop. What is the real deal? Thanks
Chad :scratchchin:
Chad,
No shop closing that I know of - talked with Vance on Friday, and work is progressing on the car quite nicely.
The car is now in primer/sealer completely, masked off, wet sanded, re-shot with primer/sealer which has been curing for several days
and is going to get the base color THIS WEEK!! WooHoo! :boogie: :rock:
I'm making a trip up to visit the car on Friday again, so I should have another round of pictures after that.
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 13, 2009, 06:38:15 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2009, 07:16:33 AM
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 03, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
11 inch brake hardware from ma mopar PT#4636773, my Daytonas rear drums have never been off they still have the locking washers on two studs from the factory. Some day i better do the brakes as the are 40 years old and never touched. Jay.
Hey Jay...
Troy here... Which locking washers on which studs are you referring to? I'm collecting missing parts now for my 11"'s............
T
Hey all. I will try to pull out my Daytona this weekend and pull off a rear drum, i made a mistake calling those RETAINING washers locking washers :brickwall: I will be taking pics as i go. I need to look at the brakes anyway as there are only 40 years old and im driving it as if it were a new car. :icon_smile_big: Jay.
Attached are the pictures Jay was kind enough to take of his Daytona's 11" brake drums which still have their retaining washers in place.
THANKS AGAIN, JAY!!!! :cheers:
These are some shots Jay sent of the brake hardware itself - can't get any better than this for original details... Thanks again, Jay :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
will they keep the drums on when the wheel flys off at taladege ? just kidding
Quote from: 694spdRT on March 13, 2009, 11:34:02 PM
Hey Geno!
Just checking in on your Daytona progress. Fatherhood and a house purchase have taken a bite out of my Charger time but I am slowly getting back into the swing of things.
Can't wait to see the finished product. :2thumbs:
Thanks Ty, are you going to be hitting any of the shows down this direction anytime soon? I know (all too well) how travelling with a little one can put a damper on things like that.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 14, 2009, 08:55:11 AM
Join the crowd !!! :lol:
:angel: :-X :baby:
BTW, good progress on your car's hardware, and Julie's gettin' with the program real well it looks!
Quote from: gtx6970 on March 15, 2009, 09:09:12 PM
Gene,
Not to sound redundant, but if your gonna put the clip on it, why worry about nos brake shoes.
Bill,
IIRC the clips do come off, although it takes a bit of work. My guess is that the concours-level judges will want to see the clip on the stud, but also want to take it off in order to check out the hardware. I'll probably have to keep some extras around in case a clip gets too bent to reuse.
Quote from: gtx6970 on March 15, 2009, 09:09:12 PM
ps- I might know of a set of 11" shoes nos. I'll ck in the morning
:notworthy: :callme:
Quote from: moparstuart on March 16, 2009, 03:56:25 PM
will they keep the drums on when the wheel flys off at taladege ? just kidding
I'm sure everyone hopes there's no repeat of THAT... :o
Oh wait, my Daytona's a 440 car and everyone knows that wheels only fly off of and then hit HemiDaytonas - nothing for me to worry about :lol:
Great pics......... Glad I had someone else to verify what I was doing was proper... I guess it doesn't matter, but the adjuster teeth on a service manual is opposite the parking brake lever. For what it's worth, I guess it doesn't matter? Here's out of the '69 Service Manual... Thanks Jay....... Those retainers look almost identical to the ones used on my '98 SS/T.... Guess I'll add that touch to "hemi"... I'll also paint the upper return springs red......
Quote from: hemigeno on March 16, 2009, 04:08:22 PM
Bill,
IIRC the clips do come off, although it takes a bit of work. My guess is that the concours-level judges will want to see the clip on the stud, but also want to take it off in order to check out the hardware. I'll probably have to keep some extras around in case a clip gets too bent to reuse.
The Nats judges have not removed wheels in a few years (not when I went through with my car) now but I (and I know you too) feel better just knowing the stuff is there. The original drum retainers are round.
so ALL B body 11" drum brakes are "heavy duty," and the non-heavy-duty (adjuster equipped) are ONLY on C bodies?
how do you identify real Mopar adjusters? the ones in the '67 X were definitely not new. that doesn't mean they weren't added in the 70's, or '67 isn't different, or...
Like I said I have discs and 10.5"'s here.
Quote from: pettybird on March 16, 2009, 08:50:28 PM
so ALL B body 11" drum brakes are "heavy duty," and the non-heavy-duty (adjuster equipped) are ONLY on C bodies?
how do you identify real Mopar adjusters? the ones in the '67 X were definitely not new. that doesn't mean they weren't added in the 70's, or '67 isn't different, or...
Like I said I have discs and 10.5"'s here.
This is what I know:
Most of your high performance vehicles which had 4-wheel drums typical had the 11" version, hence no self-adjustment. The non-high performance vehicles that had the smaller 10" versions did have the self-adjusters. Also, vehicles with disc brakes usually had the 10" rear drums, once again, with self-adjusters. Now, the cars with 11" that DID come with the self-adjusters where the C-bodies......
Clear as mud?
Troy
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 16, 2009, 09:49:01 PM
Quote from: pettybird on March 16, 2009, 08:50:28 PM
so ALL B body 11" drum brakes are "heavy duty," and the non-heavy-duty (adjuster equipped) are ONLY on C bodies?
how do you identify real Mopar adjusters? the ones in the '67 X were definitely not new. that doesn't mean they weren't added in the 70's, or '67 isn't different, or...
Like I said I have discs and 10.5"'s here.
This is what I know:
Most of your high performance vehicles which had 4-wheel drums typical had the 11" version, hence no self-adjustment. The non-high performance vehicles that had the smaller 10" versions did have the self-adjusters. Also, vehicles with disc brakes usually had the 10" rear drums, once again, with self-adjusters. Now, the cars with 11" that DID come with the self-adjusters where the C-bodies......
Clear as mud?
Troy
All disc brake performance cars 69-71 had 10" drums except the T/A and AAR got 11" rears.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 16, 2009, 09:51:14 PM
All disc brake performance cars 69-71 had 10" drums except the T/A and AAR got 11" rears.
Wow, I love this place... Learn something new ALL the time... Speaking of which.....
Quote from: pettybird on March 16, 2009, 08:50:28 PM
how do you identify real Mopar adjusters? the ones in the '67 X were definitely not new. that doesn't mean they weren't added in the 70's, or '67 isn't different, or...
Here's a pic of a comparison. Brand new adjusters from NAPA (top) versus my original (bottom). I had 3, so I'm going with the new ones until I get the other one... The new one's pretty good actually.... There is a difference between the self and non adjusting adjusters. Visually, the self-adjusting adjusters have more "teeth" on their locking star...
OK, I did a little more research, and it appears that the brake shoes that are on Jay's car are not originals because the linings are riveted to the shoes. The original brake linings were bonded/adhered to the shoe rather than riveted. The rest of the details look to be accurate, and whomever it was that replaced the shoes took the time to put the original (round) drum retainers back on. I was thinking to myself that there was an awful lot of meat left on those brake linings for them to be originals...
One of the things that may have happened with a lot of back-in-the-day owners is that they could have forgotten or not known to adjust the brakes. When the car doesn't stop correctly, then they took it to their local stealership or repair shop who was glad to sell them a complete brake job rather than just adjust the brakes out to make them snug.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 16, 2009, 04:56:34 PM
The Nats judges have not removed wheels in a few years (not when I went through with my car) now but I (and I know you too) feel better just knowing the stuff is there. The original drum retainers are round.
I'm with you Jim, even if they don't take the drum off I'd rather know that as many correct parts as can be obtained are installed. It depends on how tough it is to remove those retainers as to whether I'd be worried if they re-instituted the practice of removing wheels. Either way, we'll try to have all the bases covered.
Oh, and thanks for the adjuster comparison pictures, Troy! :2thumbs: I looked back at the hardware pictures, and it appears that Vance has installed a new or refinished set of adjusters with the knurled base.
The '69 Dealer Data Book has this to say about brakes:
The standard drum brakes on Charger Six are 10" x 2-1/2" front and 10" x 1-3/4" rear. The Standard drum brakes on Charger V-8 are 10" x 2-1/2" front and rear. These are not available on Charger R/T, which has 11" x 3" in the front and 11" x 2-1/2" in the rear as standard -
manually adjustable and with heavy-duty axles only - optional at extra cost on Charger. The brake linings are bonded which means more lining area and longer lining life because there is no need for rivet holes.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 17, 2009, 11:00:27 AM
Oh, and thanks for the adjuster comparison pictures, Troy! :2thumbs: I looked back at the hardware pictures, and it appears that Vance has installed a new or refinished set of adjusters with the knurled base.
You're welcome.. I'm thinking of taking the originals with me when I get a lot of my front end components replated in zinc phosphate. Then, I'll reinstall them later to have to originals on the '68....
Yes Geno my shoes look to good to be OEM but why did some one put the retaining washers back on and also they had no damage to them i had a hard time removeing them and most people just rip them off. They are still on the left side. Who knows what went on with them in years past. :icon_smile_question: Jay.
Quote from: WINGMAN on March 17, 2009, 05:28:23 PM
Yes Geno my shoes look to good to be OEM but why did some one put the retaining washers back on and also they had no damage to them i had a hard time removeing them and most people just rip them off. They are still on the left side. Who knows what went on with them in years past. :icon_smile_question: Jay.
Hey Jay..
Maybe they were as anal as I am.. I carefully took off my retaining washers off my '98 Ram SS/T when I changed out the rear brake shoes for the very first and only time.. Once you get them to start into the threads, they will unscrew. I just screwed them back on...
Troy
Well, the car is finally red! :ricky: :musik010: :boogie:
On Saturday, I took more than a few pictures of the car, just couldn't get enough of that R4 red color... Vance has painted the car with a base color coat, and then a final color coat that has the proper orange peel effect. He really hadn't done anything to the car for a couple of days when I saw it, letting the paint cure out completely. There are still a few areas that he'll be addressing which aren't up to his superb standards, but in his words "the hard part is done".
Enjoy...
More eye candy...
I asked Vance how he normally does the blackout on the tailpanel, and obviously he's planning to spray the black organosol after the body. There are different schools of thought on this, and I honestly thought he'd be spraying the tailpanel and then masking it off. He can always go back and add a little bit of red overspray at the edges of the black for the proper effect. I'm not worried about it looking correct when it's all said and done, but some of you guys might be wondering what's up...
The last two pictures are the antenna bezel, which was installed when the Daytona fenders were painted at Creative Industries. Vance was making sure that there was a little bit of overspray on the bezel/gasket where the guys at C.I. would not have masked things off just absolutely perfectly.
Also, Vance looked at the two NOS antenna bezels I had supplied and decided not to use either of them. He pointed out that they looked like they'd had a belt sander run across the top face of the bezel, leaving a slight texture & lines. I hadn't bothered to look or compare them, but he was right. Thankfully, he still had a perfect one in his parts stash :bow:
The first picture shows the grille screen. The hood scoops were not installed when the fender was painted, but the screen was normally in place (it was spot-welded so they didn't want to screw up the paint).
The last picture shows the rivinuts that I was able to find. Vance had a few NOS/original ones, and I scrounged around and found a vendor who still stocks them. A phone call and 3 days later, Vance got a box of 100 of 'em delivered. Again, these were in place when the nosecone paint was done. What looks like overspray on the inside of the nose really isn't - it's just dust from sanding operations (he had the grille opening masked off). There will be some overspray applied later, but that's another step for another day.
THAT LOOKS AWESOME GENO! :drool5: :drool5:
The middle two pictures are of the right headlight pods/bucket. You can see that the headlamps and trim rings are installed, but the masking didn't cover the whole trim ring. Lots of overspray on the mounting flanges and hardware, and you can see the primer showing at the bottom of the headlight pod and back inside the bucket. Creative didn't necessarily use masking tape, but they did have something that resembled a shower cap that protected the headlamps from overspray. Tape still works though.
The last picture is one of several I took of the masking applied at various hood/nose seals. Vance was just starting to pull the tape off when I got there, so a few pictures show the tape prior to removal. The front clip was painted all assembled and on the car, just like Creative did it...
Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on March 26, 2009, 05:39:55 PM
THAT LOOKS AWESOME GENO! :drool5: :drool5:
Thanks, Cody! :cheers:
Geno, All I can say is H-O-L-Y S-H-H-H.....oops...WOW! :2thumbs:
The car is looking great! :2thumbs:
We're not WORTHY!
:notworthy:
:faint:
Thanks Chris!!
I know you're getting pumped to see some B5 sprayed out too, so we'll get to drool over your pictures soon enough.
These are some pictures of the left headlight area. Same details are evident here as on the passenger's side. The somewhat light spray on that site is our own replication of a Creative Industries gaffe. Creative made sure that the outer part of the headlight door was decent enough (the doors were in the closed position for at least part of the nosecone's painting operation), but none of the doors/pods I've seen ever displayed perfect paint coverage on the inside surfaces.
You're welcome, Geno! :coolgleamA:
The first pic shows the nosecone seal all masked off. The second picture is of the turn signal bezel. This was installed in the hood when the paint work was done, but we do not believe the block off plates (or the turn signal lenses, as the case may be) were in place based on what Vance has seen. After all the pictures I took of 414619/DocTona, you'd think I would have taken one of the bezels to confirm what Vance remembers on other cars... 'course not... :brickwall:
Wow...it sure is red! And lots of authentic looking orange peel in that paintjob too.
Actually looks very dry on top of the left rear fender.
Now I'm guessing this was all done with an eye towards replicating not only the factory's handiwork, but that of Creative Industries?
Am I right?
Or will Vance be taping off a section of the roof and the front end to replicate a re-spray?
The second picture in this batch shows that Vance had installed the marker/reflector bezels in the quarterpanel. He's actually going to take these out, strip them down, and re-paint them. I have photos of the original rear bezels showing that the passenger's side was B5 blue underneath the black paint, while the driver's side was T5 copper before being sprayed to match the stripe color. A little bit of this Hamtramck-applied paint will bleed through the housings onto the mounting brackets which are visible from the trunk, so he's going to clean everything up and re-do them with the other color before painting them black over the top of that. Plus, the stripe-color paint was applied after they somewhat-carefully masked off the marker reflector lens. You can usually tell what color the original bezel was around the edges of an original bezel, and he'll try to replicate that look again.
This is incredible. Thanks for sharing. :popcrn:
:cheers: :cheers: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: Magnumcharger on March 26, 2009, 06:02:45 PM
Wow...it sure is red! And lots of authentic looking orange peel in that paintjob too.
Actually looks very dry on top of the left rear fender.
Now I'm guessing this was all done with an eye towards replicating not only the factory's handiwork, but that of Creative Industries?
Am I right?
Or will Vance be taping off a section of the roof and the front end to replicate a re-spray?
Robin, the top of that left rear quarter will have to be addressed, and Vance was already aware of that. I was asking him about some things related to how Creative painted, like whether the cowl would actually end up being a slightly different texture and/or color from the hood - since the hood was installed in primer and the cowl was factory-painted at Hamtramck with different material and cured in a heat oven. Vance said that the majority of these cars were painted again by Creative, including the cowl area. Some cars had the whole roof re-sprayed, some did not. About the only "optional" exterior bodypanels for respray on a Daytona are the rocker panels, doors and maybe the front of the roof - but only if they could blend things in really well which probably wasn't the case. I don't think he intends to have any of the body panels that appear masked off or blended in, simply because many of the cars got a complete re-paint job courtesy of Creative Industries.
Vance is definitely replicating as much as he can from Creative's finished product/look, even if the process steps he is taking do differ from theirs.
WOOHOO :2thumbs: looking good.
Quote from: mikepmcs on March 26, 2009, 06:09:02 PM
This is incredible. Thanks for sharing. :popcrn:
:cheers: :cheers: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thanks, Mike! Some of the pictures get a little repetitive, but as I go through them I can usually pick out some details worth mentioning. Still, I'll probably never get tired of "seeing red" this way...
Quote from: UFO on March 26, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
WOOHOO :2thumbs: looking good.
Thanks, Brian!
The last three pictures are of the fender-to-nosecone seal after the masking had been removed. I tried and tried to find a manufacturer willing to work with me on replicating Goodyear's butt splice of the original '70 Charger seal material. In the end, David Patik gave us some really good advice on how to refurbish the original seals, and they turned out absolutely fantastic. You can see the faint outline of overspray where the masking tape was intentionally left less-than-perfect. Just like good ol' Creative did things...
The second picture shows the lower valance and radiator yoke area, which got good-but-not-great paint coverage. Any blackout that happened to be on the lower part of the radiator yoke usually got covered up this way. The third picture is the lower seal between the nosecone and lower valance - this area was left unmasked and my original looked exactly like this does. Those two rivet-looking things near the center of the valance are the rivets which hold down one of the rubber air deflector seals. These were all in place when the paintwork was done, so the bottom of the rivets would have been painted up just like this. I didn't take a picture of it, but there's probably a slight shadow effect behind the rivet, where the paint spray was partially shielded.
The last picture shows the hood-to-nosecone seal corner. If you notice, this seal is put in off center, meaning that the seal is REALLY close on the driver's side, but an earlier picture in this batch shows it is gapoosed pretty wide on the passenger's side. Several months back in this thread I posted pictures of the nosecone's original punched (not drilled) holes which were re-used to mount this new seal. Vance still has to install one last rivet on this end of the seal, as you can see the seal is pulled away from the nosecone just a bit. It'll look just fine once that last rivet is installed. Again, we're putting things back as close as we know how to the way it was sent out the door from Creative Industries.
The hood pin attachment pattern shown in the first picture was copied exactly from a Daytona hood. The holes are pretty close to being level/perpendicular, but one side is slightly off - to the point that it's noticeable without getting out a ruler if you're looking for such. For the 1970 and later model year, the assembly plants had a jig which located these holes on hood pin cars. Creative apparently did not have the benefit of such a tool, as these holes attest.
Looking really good Gene - Nice job! :2thumbs:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 26, 2009, 06:44:40 PM
Looking really good Gene - Nice job! :2thumbs:
Thanks, Jim!
Hey, would you mind confirming how the turn signal bezels look in one or both of your 'Tonas? Vance didn't equivocate much on how he remembers them to have been done, and it's my own fault for not having snapped a picture of that area from DocTona when it was staring me in the face.
:coolgleamA:
The hood top (only) is stripped to metal but I should have some pics somewhere. Funny - I checked that out months ago and I forgot what the deal was.....old age strikes again. If I don't have pics my body man took some for sure.
The first picture shows the passenger side of that hood/nosecone seal after the masking had been removed. Note the much larger gap size, which is exactly how the original was done.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 26, 2009, 06:51:32 PM
The hood top (only) is stripped to metal but I should have some pics somewhere. Funny - I checked that out months ago and I forgot what the deal was.....old age strikes again. If I don't have pics my body man took some for sure.
If the bezels haven't been stripped yet, you might be able to get some telling details from them also :scratchchin: :scope:
Gene - thanks for answering my questions.
That's my favorite car...in my favorite color!
This may be the ultimate manifestation of my Charger desires!
The engine compartment hasn't been painted, as you can see. Vance is planning to do the passenger's compartment, trunk, engine compartment, and finish up with the underneath side. After all that's done, he'll install the engine, wiring, and the rest of the engine compartment detailing - before crudely draping a blanket or something over the engine and blasting whatever he feels like with a healthy dose of overspray... :o
The last two pictures are the start of a long discussion Vance and I had about hood pins. The pins you see here are a set from Frank Badalson. Frank puts out a TON of great products, but these pins do differ from a lot of the original Daytona hood pins I've seen. All of the pins I remember seeing are much more rounded or blunt on top, instead of being quite as tapered as the ones you see in these pictures. A few more pictures follow which show what I'm trying to convey. Vance had installed these for the time being, but I am actually going to have another set of original pins rechromed and we'll install/use those. He'll have to come back and replicate a little bit of the overspray details, as the engine compartment and inner fenders were normally sprayed with the hood pins in place (there are a few exceptions, but you can clearly see the outline of the washer on my original fender brace).
Quote from: Magnumcharger on March 26, 2009, 06:53:38 PM
Gene - thanks for answering my questions.
That's my favorite car...in my favorite color!
This may be the ultimate manifestation of my Charger desires!
:2thumbs: A Daytona in any flavor works for me... :drool5:
Looking great..I'm jealous!
These three pictures were taken of original hood pins which show the different shape of the tip. The first picture is of a hood pin taken out of Chris Sauer's former R4 Daytona. A previous owner had drilled out the hood pin to allow an easier time of putting the pins in (why they didn't just adjust the pin to stick out further is beyond both me and Vance :brickwall: )
The second and third pictures are of hood pins removed from a GY3 '71 HemiCuda. Vance had another set of the blunt original pins handy that I'm going to send off to have some light scratches built back up and then rechromed. In the meantime, Vance can use the repro set to mock up and to allow painting of the fender brace with the washer outline in place.
Quote from: johntpr on March 26, 2009, 07:17:19 PM
Looking great..I'm jealous!
Thanks John! Hey, any updates on your car's progress? You gonna be starting up a resto thread for us all to follow along?
Mr. Jacobs is gonna do a top-shelf resto on your car, I'm sure!
The first picture shows the hood/nosecone seal with all the masking removed. Again, a rivet is still missing which will draw that seal up tight to the nosecone.
The next pictures were my attempt to show the inner fender where it joins up with the new Daytona fender. Normally, a Charger had seam sealer applied in the joint between the inner and outer fenders. When Creative removed the '69 fenders from the unconverted Daytona, it was a crapshoot as to whether the seam sealer stuck to the outer fender and then discarded, or stuck to the inner fender and then stayed in between the inner fender and new Daytona fender flange. Vance opted to leave the seam sealer out, as it's easier not to have to work around it - and it's just as possible that it was gone as for it to be present.
It looks like he shipped 69-1/2 hood pins which are tapered/pointy - I'll check the ones he sent me vs the originals.
One old business item... Vance scrounged some shoe locator spring retainers that have the round shape instead of the stamped inner hexagon shape... I also snapped a picture of the manual steering box. Anyone know if these are date coded? This is the original one from my car, but neither Vance nor I could find a date code anywhere on that housing. There is some VERY faint evidence of some casting marks which may have been a time clock type deal, but there were no apparent stampings that either he or I found.
Finally, a gratuitous shot of my daughter Samantha, who made the trip up to Vance's with me. The day before, she and I did the father/daughter thing and went shopping in Chicago on Michigan Ave., did the John Hancock Building tour, etc. Let's just say that I got my fill of Radio Disney last weekend... :P We had fun though...
That's all the photo updates for the moment!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 26, 2009, 07:29:57 PM
It looks like he shipped 69-1/2 hood pins which are tapered/pointy - I'll check the ones he sent me vs the originals.
That makes sense, as I wouldn't expect Frank to miss much when it comes to detail! :bow:
looks awesome ..great attention to detail of creatives handy work :yesnod: ....... :drool5: man thats going to be a some Daytona when finished :yesnod: .......................... :popcrn:
Red paint finally!!!!! :o You are right Gene those nose seals turned out very nice. Well that's actually an understatement. They look absolutely fantastic. :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 26, 2009, 07:33:07 PMFinally, a gratuitous shot of my daughter Samantha, who made the trip up to Vance's with me. The day before, she and I did the father/daughter thing and went shopping in Chicago on Michigan Ave., did the John Hancock Building tour, etc. Let's just say that I got my fill of Radio Disney last weekend... :P We had fun though...
That's all the photo updates for the moment!
Its a good thing she takes after her mom!. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: j/k :icon_smile_big:
Geno, i'm just amazed as how many extra parts Vance has laying around his shop for Daytona's. From what i can see you picked the best man for the job... :yesnod:
I'll see you in 220 days..
Paul
in Minnetonka...
Wow color is on :2thumbs: looking good wont be long now .Till its a turn key driver
Thanks guys, this was a big step in getting the car done. Based on the progress I'm not ready to guess when it will be completed - not because the work remaining is too overwhelming for Vance, but because we'll undoubtedly run into some little part needed that can't be found easily. I'm already bracing myself for that possibility.
Quote from: PocketThunder on March 26, 2009, 10:11:56 PM
Its a good thing she takes after her mom!. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: j/k :icon_smile_big:
I have told my kids that at least they chose their Mom wisely :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: PocketThunder on March 26, 2009, 10:11:56 PM
I'll see you in 220 days..
With or without the Daytona (and I sure hope it'll be with) I plan to be there.
Geno !!! Wow !!! Paint !!!!!!! Looking good..............
Guess your daughter's posing to her future car? :icon_smile_big:
Also, I have to ask, it apprears the rear valance gap to end caps are filled in? Is there a reason you did this?
Troy :2thumbs:
Thanks Troy, but I don't know if Samantha's much of a gearhead at the moment. Jonathan (my oldest son), now that's a different story. I will have to watch him - after all, I remember what I got away with when I was young. He's only 10 right now so I still have time to design the security system. :lol:
On the rear valance corners, your comment got me thinking. I dug out one of the '69 engineering graphics, and it shows seam sealer around the top seam (between the corner and the taillight panel) and all down the side seam between the valance corner and the quarterpanel. It does not appear to show or require seam sealer at the vertical seam between the corner and the rear valance panel itself. It could be that I just haven't taken a picture from the correct angle to show this differentiation, but it'll be something I check out.
Of course, that's another area I did not snap a picture of from maxwellwedge's DocTona. :brickwall: I did spend a while looking at some of the other archived reference photos I have, and couldn't find any that show a clear shot of the valance-to-corner seam. Something else to look for...
Here's a picture from one of the Malcom's survivors showing the quarter-to-corner seam:
You are correct on the seam sealer on the top portion of the rear valance/end cap where it meets the rear taillamp panel and as well, the union between the end cap and the back of the rear quarter panel. All those locations have areas exposed to the inside of the trunk where as the vertical union between the end cap and rear valance is exposed to the air gap between the rear valance and rear cross-member panel/section. It is this rear cross-member panel/section that encloses the trunk area. It's also the panel in which the rear bumper bracket attach bolts go through. I have both my '70 six pack Charger R/T and have seen plenty of original paint/unrestored 2nd gen's that show an open gap between the rear valance and end cap. I measured my gaps on my '68 before dipping it for it had the original paint. One side of the valance had a 1/16th gap and the other side had a 1/8th gap. Needless to say, I stressed to Smitty to duplicate the gap measurements............
Troy
Quote from: hemigeno on March 26, 2009, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 26, 2009, 06:51:32 PM
The hood top (only) is stripped to metal but I should have some pics somewhere. Funny - I checked that out months ago and I forgot what the deal was.....old age strikes again. If I don't have pics my body man took some for sure.
If the bezels haven't been stripped yet, you might be able to get some telling details from them also :scratchchin: :scope:
Hey Geno - Looks like the bezels were in and the guts were not during the painting...I am sure some (guts) were removed and some were masked off.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 27, 2009, 10:09:08 AM
Thanks Troy, but I don't know if Samantha's much of a gearhead at the moment. Jonathan (my oldest son), now that's a different story. I will have to watch him - after all, I remember what I got away with when I was young. He's only 10 right now so I still have time to design the security system. :lol:
On the rear valance corners, your comment got me thinking. I dug out one of the '69 engineering graphics, and it shows seam sealer around the top seam (between the corner and the taillight panel) and all down the side seam between the valance corner and the quarterpanel. It does not appear to show or require seam sealer at the vertical seam between the corner and the rear valance panel itself. It could be that I just haven't taken a picture from the correct angle to show this differentiation, but it'll be something I check out.
Of course, that's another area I did not snap a picture of from maxwellwedge's DocTona. :brickwall: I did spend a while looking at some of the other archived reference photos I have, and couldn't find any that show a clear shot of the valance-to-corner seam. Something else to look for...
Here's a picture from one of the Malcom's survivors showing the quarter-to-corner seam:
I'll look at mine for you.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 27, 2009, 11:23:55 AM
Hey Geno - Looks like the bezels were in and the guts were not during the painting...I am sure some (guts) were removed and some were masked off.
Thanks for checking those questions out for me.
Your observation jives with what Vance remembers the case to be, although I woudn't have been too surprised if DocTona was done just a tad differently than most. He did not plan to install the block-off plates (mine isn't isn't coded for the L31 turn signals) or the screws to hold the plates before painting the underside.
:cheers:
Car looks great Gene.
Did Vance go through with the original plan of painting the car with 69 front fenders on it, then repainting it once the right fenders, and nose cone were installed as well?
The 1000 reply barrier has been breached! Congrats on the best restoration thread there ever was on any forum! Blew by my C500 like she wuz standing still... now I have to worry about being lapped!!! :eek2: :lol:
As always, great pictures... my harddrive is spooling up for the additions.
Allen
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 27, 2009, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 27, 2009, 10:09:08 AM
Thanks Troy, but I don't know if Samantha's much of a gearhead at the moment. Jonathan (my oldest son), now that's a different story. I will have to watch him - after all, I remember what I got away with when I was young. He's only 10 right now so I still have time to design the security system. :lol:
On the rear valance corners, your comment got me thinking. I dug out one of the '69 engineering graphics, and it shows seam sealer around the top seam (between the corner and the taillight panel) and all down the side seam between the valance corner and the quarterpanel. It does not appear to show or require seam sealer at the vertical seam between the corner and the rear valance panel itself. It could be that I just haven't taken a picture from the correct angle to show this differentiation, but it'll be something I check out.
Of course, that's another area I did not snap a picture of from maxwellwedge's DocTona. :brickwall: I did spend a while looking at some of the other archived reference photos I have, and couldn't find any that show a clear shot of the valance-to-corner seam. Something else to look for...
Here's a picture from one of the Malcom's survivors showing the quarter-to-corner seam:
I'll look at mine for you.
Ok - Checked. As stated above, all seams except the vertical at the valance have sealer. There is a tiny bit in one of those valance seams but it was slop from the top sealer. Forgot to check the pins but yours are an error in packaging/shipping. Those are definitely the 69-1/2 pins....FB has both styles.
Quote from: 69_500 on March 27, 2009, 03:39:38 PM
Car looks great Gene.
Did Vance go through with the original plan of painting the car with 69 front fenders on it, then repainting it once the right fenders, and nose cone were installed as well?
Thanks, Danny!
Vance's guys installed the fenders and painted the outline of the original '69 fender mounting tabs a while back. I can't find the page number right now where those pictures are posted, but I'll try to look it up sometime. They only had to do that once, and it was when they painted the inner fenders and front wheelwell.
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on March 27, 2009, 04:59:03 PM
The 1000 reply barrier has been breached! Congrats on the best restoration thread there ever was on any forum! Blew by my C500 like she wuz standing still... now I have to worry about being lapped!!! :eek2: :lol:
As always, great pictures... my harddrive is spooling up for the additions.
Allen
Allen, I think the "best resto thread ever" title will remain on someone else's mantle - hard to claim that title when I've learned as much from this thread as I've posted... Thanks for the kind words, although the only reason there's not twice as many posts in your B5's resto thread is because you've been forced to deal with a whole lot of other very important issues. Hope the latest problem (your back) get cleared up quickly! :cheers:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 27, 2009, 05:51:24 PM
Ok - Checked. As stated above, all seams except the vertical at the valance have sealer. There is a tiny bit in one of those valance seams but it was slop from the top sealer. Forgot to check the pins but yours are an error in packaging/shipping. Those are definitely the 69-1/2 pins....FB has both styles.
Thanks for checking that out, Jim. I need to get a better picture of that area on my car and/or ask Vance if he can confirm what they did.
BTW, I need to give a shout out to both johntpr and especially Frank Badalson. John brought the discrepancy I mentioned about the hood pins to Frank Badalson's attention (if maxwellwedge/Jim hadn't already done so). Without hesitation, Frank shot me an email telling me he's sending out a set of the correct pins first thing next week. He didn't have to do that, but he's as much a stand-up guy as he is a perfectionist. Even though he didn't ask for such, I'll be sending back the other hood pins -- which shouldn't be any the worse for wear all things considered.
There really are some good guys still left in this hobby :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Gene, that last post just goes to back up what I keep telling my wife. She watches some of the auctions on TV, and then goes to various shows with me (mostly local ones) and she was convinced that over 90% of the people involved are just in this hobby for selfish reasons. It will be nice to let her read some more of this thread and see that not everyone is just out for themselves and that there are still a lot of people out there willing to help people out, and to do the right things.
Having not ever met Frank personally I can say that I have not heard anything but positive about him personally, his parts, and his work. People that are like that in all 3 aspects are getting harder and harder to find. The ones who have nice parts and do good work sometimes are pretty shall we say "unique" or "quarky". Other times the person is one of the nicest people you will ever find, but there work is very subpar.
Gene I'm looking forward to making a trip up to see the car now that its a nice looking shade of R4 red, and getting some video and some more photo's of the car. Keep me updated on the next trip.
Looking great Geno! Is this one of those Archaeologically correct restos? I look at the engine compartment and wonder why it hasn't been painted yet?
I'm all for total originality, but I also remember buying a new 68 Charger and taking it home with no money left to drive it, so me and my buddy spent the rest of the week cleaning all them grease pencil marks and over spray areas up..............ruined for posterity ......heh heh
Cheers
Steve
Gene,
Your buddy John A is wearing me out with links to your restoration! I must say I'm impressed-I have read every page and have enjoyed it tremendously.
Vance is an awesome artist and has always been very respected by me! I would hate to guess the hours in this resto-a true labor of love.
Hey those hood pins Frank (a stand up guy for sure) sent you are for 69 1/2 lift off cars-unique to those cars only. I'm sure you could pawn them off on someone easily.
Quote from: 69_500 on March 28, 2009, 08:20:28 AM
Gene I'm looking forward to making a trip up to see the car now that its a nice looking shade of R4 red, and getting some video and some more photo's of the car. Keep me updated on the next trip.
Danny, I'm not sure when the next trip up will be. Probably in late April or early May depending on how some personal things go, but you're more than welcome to head up there then or any other time you'd care to go. Davtona (Dave H.) will probably be tagging along on one of those visits sometime soon too. The degree of fine detail to look at is increasing every day, and I learn a TON just walking around it and asking questions - not to mention the things that you guys pick up on from the pictures that I failed to ask about.
Quote from: XS29J8 on March 28, 2009, 08:59:11 AM
Looking great Geno! Is this one of those Archaeologically correct restos? I look at the engine compartment and wonder why it hasn't been painted yet?
Thanks, Steve! I dunno about archaeologically correct, but we are attempting to do the best job possible with the parts and materials that are available to work with in this day & age. I'll be satisfied if we don't compromise in any area we don't have to or intentionally choose to do for longevity's sake.
As far as the engine compartment goes, Vance is fairly methodical in how he paints a car. Outside first, passenger compartment, trunk, engine compartment, and then underbody. He masks off everything that isn't being painted with that particular application to prevent paint build-up, although he comes back and does all the proper overspray later - but that's all overspray he can control. I won't pretend to understand his rationale completely, but it probably is a little less tension-filled to paint the car in smaller segments/chunks. Vance remarked that the hard part is over when the body panels are painted, although I can't believe he'd consider painting the trunk compartment through that ridiculously-small decklid opening doesn't fall into the "hard" category too.
Quote from: XS29J8 on March 28, 2009, 08:59:11 AM
I'm all for total originality, but I also remember buying a new 68 Charger and taking it home with no money left to drive it, so me and my buddy spent the rest of the week cleaning all them grease pencil marks and over spray areas up..............ruined for posterity ......heh heh
:smilielol: I seriously doubt the attitude you had about the cars back then was unusual... they were just cars, and the paint daubs & grease pencil markings were nothing more than blemishes. Most of the cars that have been preserved were saved because someone loved the car itself - not because they were protecting an investment for 40 years later. I think that's why they're as interesting and sought after today, since most cars which "survived" did not often do so without having some/most/all of their original characteristics modified or removed.
Quote from: paul jacobs on March 29, 2009, 10:10:33 PM
Gene,
Your buddy John A is wearing me out with links to your restoration! I must say I'm impressed-I have read every page and have enjoyed it tremendously.
Vance is an awesome artist and has always been very respected by me! I would hate to guess the hours in this resto-a true labor of love.
Hey those hood pins Frank (a stand up guy for sure) sent you are for 69 1/2 lift off cars-unique to those cars only. I'm sure you could pawn them off on someone easily.
Hi Paul! Glad you've enjoyed the thread to this point, although I'm certain you could generate a number of similar threads with an equal level of detail and information. For that matter, I'd LOVE to see pictures and some of the finer details from your other Aero-car projects, like Steve Fox's HemiDaytona we've all :drool5: :o at Carlisle the last couple of years.
Incidentally, if I never add up the hours or tally up the cost of all these parts, I'll have plausible deniability if my wife ever asks... :lol:
:cheers:
Quote from: paul jacobs on March 29, 2009, 10:10:33 PM
Gene,
Your buddy John A is wearing me out with links to your restoration! I must say I'm impressed-I have read every page and have enjoyed it tremendously.
Vance is an awesome artist and has always been very respected by me! I would hate to guess the hours in this resto-a true labor of love.
Hey those hood pins Frank (a stand up guy for sure) sent you are for 69 1/2 lift off cars-unique to those cars only. I'm sure you could pawn them off on someone easily.
I might have a used pair of hood pins.Here is what the NOS ones look like for the wingcars . Had these from my old daytona part number #3549611 for the daytona and superbird parts book description lock package.With similar instructions shown above
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/NOSHoodPins.jpg)d the part number
Quote from: nascarxx29 on March 30, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
Quote from: paul jacobs on March 29, 2009, 10:10:33 PM
Gene,
Your buddy John A is wearing me out with links to your restoration! I must say I'm impressed-I have read every page and have enjoyed it tremendously.
Vance is an awesome artist and has always been very respected by me! I would hate to guess the hours in this resto-a true labor of love.
Hey those hood pins Frank (a stand up guy for sure) sent you are for 69 1/2 lift off cars-unique to those cars only. I'm sure you could pawn them off on someone easily.
I might have a used pair of hood pins.Here is what the NOS ones look like for the wingcars . Had these from my old daytona part number #3549611 for the daytona and superbird parts book description lock package.With similar instructions shown above
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/NOSHoodPins.jpg)d the part number
nice :drool5:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on March 30, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
I might have a used pair of hood pins.Here is what the NOS ones look like for the wingcars . Had these from my old daytona part number #3549611 for the daytona and superbird parts book description lock package.With similar instructions shown above d the part number
Vance already gave me an original/used set of correct hood pins to have rechromed, but it might take too long to get back from the rechrome shop. I'll send Vance the new set of pins from Frank (thanks again, Frank!! :cheers: ) and let him decide. They're probably dead nuts correct, so that's what he may decide to use.
Also, I've looked at several NOS hood pin sets over the years, and they all had cables that were too long. Daytonas used 18" cables, and I'm not sure if there was another common Mopar application which used a "short" cable like that. Vance said earlier he thought he had an original set of 18" cables somewhere, so I'll be :boogie: if that's the case.
Well, here's the latest update...
Vance has completed the paint work in the passenger's compartment, and spent three days nearly folded up inside the trunk trying to sand out the underneath side of the window plug. Upon further review, Vance wishes he had pulled the rear plug completely out of the car similar to what Allen's shop did with his B5 C500. The visible/reachable parts have been hand sanded and refinished, but doing it while the plug is installed does increase the degree of difficulty. I know I wouldn't have the patience to do that kind of sanding work even for 15 minutes, much less 3 days of that torture. :o
The trunk compartment has been all painted and mostly detailed, including the reinstallation of sound deadener, priming the trunk hinges, etc. He has a little more detail work to do with things like the trunk hinge pins, but it's mostly complete.
They now have the car up on big jackstands, to allow them easy access to the underneath side for priming and finishing of that area. In the next couple of days, Vance is going to start applying the primer to the underneath side. He's experimenting with a way to replicate the shriveled-up drips that are normally found on the underbody strengthening ribs of unrestored cars. That's somewhat of a crapshoot though, as not every car had the same amount of drips or other variations in primer which I've seen. A lot depended on the consistency of the primer vat the day that car was made... was it freshly filled? was it thinned out or thicker than normal? Did the line stop while the car was part-way out of the dip tank? Also, there were occasionally some trace contaminants found in the primer vats that would leave discolorations or streaks in the primer, but it was not a consistent thing. Some cars have weird looks to their underside primer, some look pretty plain. Vance is going to make mine pretty plain, since we could not find or document anything "weird" during the initial cleanup process.
After everything is detailed on the underside, they'll install the rear axle, and front suspension to get the car rolling around on it's own wheels again. The front K-frame and suspension will come out again though, for the installation of the engine (from the underneath side, factory-style).
There's a good deal of progress happening now, which is a good thing. My fear is that there'll be some other part or material I need and can't find which brings all this progress to a screeching halt - like the nosecone air seals did. :brickwall:
I hope to be back up to Vance's shop in late April or early May to snap another round of pictures.
:2thumbs: Good news Geno............... Glad things are moving along.............
Could possibly count me in for a trip if its around the first of may. I mean that would be right in time for a B-day trip to see some cars, surely the wife wouldn't complain about that right?
:2thumbs:
Can't wait for the pics. :cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on April 08, 2009, 01:31:01 PM
Well, here's the latest update...
He's experimenting with a way to replicate the shriveled-up drips that are normally found on the underbody strengthening ribs of unrestored cars. That's somewhat of a crapshoot though, as not every car had the same amount of drips or other variations in primer which I've seen. A lot depended on the consistency of the primer vat the day that car was made... was it freshly filled? was it thinned out or thicker than normal? Did the line stop while the car was part-way out of the dip tank? Also, there were occasionally some trace contaminants found in the primer vats that would leave discolorations or streaks in the primer, but it was not a consistent thing. Some cars have weird looks to their underside primer, some look pretty plain. Vance is going to make mine pretty plain, since we could not find or document anything "weird" during the initial cleanup process.
You are now at the good part - the car is looking like a car again!
We figured out the drip thing and the "slag" in the ribs pretty darn authentic. We are now trying to get the streak look usually in the tunnel...about 75% happy with the progress at the moment. Splitting atoms? Maybe. Do we love the challenge of the attention to details? Definitely!
Exciting time - I am happy for you! :cheers:
Geno, Your Daytona is looking great :2thumbs: It brings back memories of when I had my Daytona painted way back in the day ('82). We just had no idea back then about all of the intricacies of these cars. I can't wait to see it all done!!
Welp, it's time for another update... I went to Vance's shop last Saturday and saw the progress reported above and what had taken place after that last update. Even since then, they've made further progress by installing the springs, axle, and most of the front suspension. It should be a rolling chassis again in just a few days. The unenviable task of detailing various areas of the car will continue, probably through the rest of the whole process. There are several areas that for one reason or another will be tweaked, and the whole exterior paint job will need to be "nursed" (that's Vance's descriptive word not mine) into just the right look.
Anyway, enjoy...
The second picture shows a hood bumper support of a different color underneath the rubber bumper itself. These studs and bumpers were removed during the new fender installation, and the workers didn't worry too much about matching the colors up since they blasted the whole thing with paint anyway. If you pull off the rubber bumper of an average Daytona (if the rubber isn't so hard to prevent such) it's just as likely to be an odd color as it is to being a matching color. Vance had some B5 Blue and Y2 Yellow paint left over from other jobs, so he spritzed a bumper stud in each color and installed prior to paint. You'd never know what color is there unless you pull off the bumper, like the picture shows.
The fender tag shots I took were intended to show how Vance krinkled up the corner which remained fastened during the paint process. The tags were never bent straight up right where they were eventually positioned, they were always at some weird angle. As a result, there is a pattern left on the inner fender - and if you removed the tag you'd see no body color paint in a spot right under that corner of the tag. He still has to detail up the Hamtramck-typical metal inspector's strip and install under that left screw.
The middle picture shows the back side of pop rivets used to install the rubber radiator air shields. These were in place when the paint was applied at Creative, but obviously not when the back side of the radiator yoke was painted by Hamtramck. As such, the pop rivets would have only a bit of overspray (if anything) on them.
The last picture shows a paint smudge line made when the hood was closed with wet paint still on the cowl. Quite frequently but not always, Creative had the rear hood seal on the hood when paint was applied. Since my hood and cowl were burned in the fire we couldn't use it as a pattern. Vance decided to install the seal prior to paint, and the line in the last picture is the result when the hood is closed prior to the paint being fully cured.
Looks like it's coming together nicely Geno.......You didn't want to see your girlfriend Olga this time around? :lol:
The first shot is of that rear hood seal, in place with paint on it.
The second shot shows the back side of the front/main hood reinforcing rib with lots of primer showing through. Creative's painter stood pretty much at the front of the car, pointing the paint gun up at the underneath side of the hood. They didn't bother to get 100% coverage on the backsides of the ribs, as I have observed on every original Daytona hood I've ever looked at. Vance replicated that same look, and there are several pictures from various vantage points to show this effect.
While the paint guy didn't worry about getting paint everywhere, they also didn't worry about drips or runs in non-critical areas either. Paint drips like what you see in the third picture have been observed on some (but not all) original hoods. If it happened, they didn't worry too much about cleaning them up.
The last picture is slightly out of focus, guess my camera thought I wanted to take a picture of the paint booth ceiling :icon_smile_blackeye: What I was trying to capture was the leading edge of the hood, which often shows evidence of where the hood was closed against the hood-to-nosecone seal. The seal usually doesn't have any marks from this contact, since that was taped off during the paint process. The hood, however, would usually make at least some contact while still wet enough to leave marks in the paint. As many pictures as I took this round, one of the shots I forgot to take was of the hood bumper's marks left on the underside of the hood. Pretty standard-fare detail on Daytona hoods though.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 07, 2009, 07:13:37 PM
Looks like it's coming together nicely Geno.......You didn't want to see your girlfriend Olga this time around? :lol:
Thanks, Jim. Is Olga the one who keeps calling the house and hanging up when my wife answers? I'll pay you back sometime for giving her my number... :slap: :P
The first shot was my attempt at showing a small but accidental paint drip that was intentionally left in place between the hood hinge and the fender. Not so hot paint coverage in this area, as is typical.
I poked the camera in the nosecone and took several shots, such as the last three. BTW, whether it's common knowledge or not I don't know, but I did some research this week about the bulb (err, lamp - sorry Frank B.!!) used in the turn signals. Pretty well anyone familiar with Daytona's knows that the turn signals were '69 Valiant units. What some may not know, is that Creative's workers were supposed to change out the bulb from a 1157A to a 1157NA. What's the difference, you ask? The 1157NA lamp is a 14volt piece, where the original 1157A is a 12.8volt lamp - probably just a tad brighter is all, as both bulbs are amber in color. The lamp changeout was part of the combination used to show the Federal DOT that the turn signals met the requirements for brightness and visibility at the reqired angles and distances. Chrysler's engineers were probably a little concerned with the added obstruction of the radiator grille screen material. It was supposedly a required/safety item, so my guess is they probably checked for that and ignored every other way they butchered-up the cars. Once installed, no one could tell the difference without some way to measure the lumen output of the whole assembly.
The nosecone/radiator rubber air seals really do look awesome if I might say so myself (that's mostly dust and probably not much overspray on them). One thing to point out which is different about my car from most, is that no blackout paint was found inside my fender/valance/nosecone area. For whatever reason, they forgot to put that on this particular car, although most had this area blasted with flat black. It gives things a little different look than most cars in that particular area, but that's what we documented with my car (same thing with the organosol on the latch tray too - and Vance is pretty determined to paint the front spoiler organosol too based on the paint strata evidence seen on cars besides just mine).
Coming along very nicely there Gene. Makes me want to plan a trip to Michigan and try out my new camera I just got for my birthday. Its itching to be broken in on a good trip to see some car, and shoot up a few hundred photo's of what my wife calls "useless details".
I hear that, Danny. When I come back from trips like this and show pictures to my wife, she likes looking at the ones that show the whole car or show one of the kids. Apart from that all I hear is some very rapid clicking on the camera as she scrolls through "those other pictures"
Which is why we have 2 external hard drives hooked up to the computer. One labeled Family Pictures, and the other is just labeled "Danny" and it holds only car photo's. That way the wife doesn't have to sort through them or even be bothered by them unless she wants to view them. Which I think has happened 1 time, and after about 50 pictures she was done. If things keep up though, I"ll have that 1TB hard drive full of car photo's by the end of this year though and then I don't know what I'll do.
Some more hood rib primer shots... from the right angles, the paint jobs did look pretty atrocious.
Quote from: 69_500 on May 07, 2009, 07:43:01 PM
Which is why we have 2 external hard drives hooked up to the computer. One labeled Family Pictures, and the other is just labeled "Danny" and it holds only car photo's. That way the wife doesn't have to sort through them or even be bothered by them unless she wants to view them. Which I think has happened 1 time, and after about 50 pictures she was done. If things keep up though, I"ll have that 1TB hard drive full of car photo's by the end of this year though and then I don't know what I'll do.
That's a lot of pictures... or at least it would be with my toy camera. Yours? Well, even your old one took pictures with more resolution/size than the hard drive capacities of most home computers not all too long ago. :o
Some interior compartment shots. You can see where the Upper Door Frame paint has been applied (black interior car, of course).
Some shots of the rear window channel(s) and supports. The third one shows a bit of body color overspray on the "bare metal" support that shouldn't be there - but I'm sure Vance will be cleaning all that up even though it doesn't show on a finished car. They had only removed the masking in a lot of areas on Thursday, so there are tons of details that hadn't been addressed just yet. I'm still amazed at Vance's overall thoroughness.
Even though not a whole lot of details are evident to the casual observer, Vance has spent a ton of time getting details just right in the trunk compartment - and there is still a fair amount of work left to do. The whole car is still very much a work in progress, but I love what I see so far.
I've tried to ocassionally take pictures of areas which aren't too visible once the car is done in various stages of the restoration process. These are examples of that effort in the trunk compartment.
In retrospect, I wish I had taken a ton more pictures before the restoration started - even though I have quite a few. There's always that "one little detail" I forgot to snap a picture of. Hopefully that won't be the case with the finished product anyway...
More trunk compartment shots. He was gettin' pretty happy with that seam sealer gun, waddnhe? :lol:
The last two shots show the decklid catch, which almost always has a nice shadow effect behind the catch itself with primer showing through. You can also see the back edge of the decklid has primer showing through there as well.
I took some shots to remind myself to remind Vance that the rear vertical seam between the corner and valance had not been redone. It is indeed supposed to be an open seam, but Vance hasn't had a chance to fix that area yet. No big deal, but the last time out there I didn't take any straight-on shots.
More soon-to-be-hidden trunk compartment detail shots
I took some pictures of the wing washers/supports. These were welded in place prior to paint being applied to the trunk and quarterpanel area, so quite often there is a little bit of overspray on the edge of the washer itself. You can (almost) see how Vance left a bit of overspray in that last picture (sorry it's a bit out of focus and has some camera flash). Most of the underside would have had little, if any, overspray.
Back to the passenger's compartment, with some pictures of the transmission tunnel with console brackets, and passenger's side area.
A few shots of the roof and A-pillar corners
The last picture is of the windshield channel, ready to receive the clips. I still need to order these from Mr. G's, but am trying to find screws that match the originals a little better. The originals from my car were a gold (cadmium?) color and most of the repro screws I've seen are silver. Yeah, I'm a nutcase, worrying about screws that are never seen once the moulding is installed :slap:
Some inner fender shots with everything pretty well in place
Vance raised the car up for me so I could take some undercarriage shots. I started underneath from inside the engine compartment, looking forward at the nosecone. Not a common perspective shot once the radiator's in place, that's for sure.
One more nosecone shot, and then a couple three of the firewall-to-framerail area. It totally depended on the mood of the Hamtramck paint guy as to how much paint was sprayed in this area. Some cars got lots of paint, some got overspray and not much more :lol: This is probably somewhere in the middle.
Some shots of the battery tray and radiator yoke area. This area didn't always get thorough paint coverage, especially on the underside of the tray. Some cars (Jim B. has an example of this) didn't even get much on the inner frame rail where the top ledge of the rail casts a "shadow". I think Vance has decided to redo some of the areas around the framerail from what is shown here.
Ever wonder what Mopar hood hinges look like in the closed position? Wonder no more... :P
The last two pictures are a neat detail. On the lip that joins the cowl to the firewall, there is a locating hole used in the assembly process. One of the Hamtramck sealant worker's steps was to squirt a dollop of sealant in this hole, presumably to keep it from becoming a gutter downspout for any rainwater which travelled down that channel. Quite often, they goobered the sealant up so much in this hole area that some of it would leak down and stick to the firewall. Vance has seen this a lot, and usually replicates the look - which you see here.
Funny how the J-nuts are positioned in that picture. Most I have seen are positioned "slid-in" to the edge which is how they are designed to work. Disco is identical to the way yours are. Cool.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=100093;image)
One more shot of the firewall area where it joins the floor pan. Not a whole lot of paint coverage, but again - that was at the whim of the Hamtramck worker. You can see the seam sealer sticking through the joint.
The last two pictures are of the hood underside, where the primer sticks out like a sore thumb against that red.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 07, 2009, 08:52:14 PM
Funny how the J-nuts are positioned in that picture. Most I have seen are positioned "slid-in" to the edge which is how they are designed to work. Disco is identical to the way yours are. Cool.
To be honest, I had forgotten how the originals were done - but after I read your reply it was time to look through the photos. Sure enough, that's how my originals were installed. Vance just put mine back the way they were. Seems kinda dumb though, as you can see by the marks on the metal how they spin when tightened up. :slap:
It's dumb, it's stupid, it's nuts - it's a Daytona!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 07, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
It's dumb, it's stupid, it's nuts - it's a Daytona!
Sad, but oh-so-true... :lol:
More nosecone shots from inside the engine compartment
Here's the clip on Disco.
Here's where the floor/body pan shots start. Jim, I'm sure you're interested to see how Vance did the primer effect. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to replicate the shriveled-up drip look that you've said you guys have mastered. Vance wanted to stick with the materials that he knows and trusts for the applications. I did bug him about trying to replicate that look, and he did at least attempt. The problem is, he had already thinned out the material way more than the manufacturer recommended, and still had a dickens of a time getting the silly stuff to bead up into drips to begin with.
At any rate, I won't have the EXACT same look as the factory's baked-on drips... just the drips themselves.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 07, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
Here's the clip on Disco.
Yep, that looks familiar... here's my original shot
I love the drips! :2thumbs:
When you get a moment, throw me a bone and snap off a picture of how DocTona's drips look now. I already know how they used to look :D
Doc has longer clips slid under the edge......can't find a pic :icon_smile_dissapprove:
Geno,
All I can say is WOW!
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
You've probably answered this before but when do you hope to have the car back together again?
Looking great so far.
:2thumbs:
Scott
Quote from: hemigeno on May 07, 2009, 09:14:55 PM
When you get a moment, throw me a bone and snap off a picture of how DocTona's drips look now. I already know how they used to look :D
Gene - only painting the exterior - leaving all that stuff alone.
Quote from: 70Sbird on May 07, 2009, 09:15:40 PM
You've probably answered this before but when do you hope to have the car back together again?
Thank you very much, Scott!
To answer your question though, I honestly don't know. The biggest hurdle that I'm sure will come up during the balance of the restoration will be some part or parts that are needed, I don't have, haven't yet REALIZED I don't have, and can't come up with on short notice...
:brickwall:
Last year I had made preliminary arrangements to have the car at Carlisle for the SME judging, and the OEGold event at the 'Nats in August. Both of those events are probably out now, if for no other reason than I don't want to jump through all the hoops required to enter those judged events without knowing for certain that the car is done. It will probably make its debut at either the Monster Mopar show (sorta my "home" event anyway) or at the DSAC meet in Talladega. Either would be fine with me.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 07, 2009, 09:16:28 PM
Gene - only painting the exterior - leaving all that stuff alone.
Gotcha. It certainly didn't NEED messed with. I just remembered you talking about trying to perfect the streaked look and thought you had mentioned perfecting the shriveled drips too. You have the perfect pattern to work from, that's for sure...
More underbody shots. This is where all that work Vance's guys did in filling/sanding down the edges of the pans, braces, and all the other flat surfaces really pays off. Then we go and yuk it up with overspray and drippy primer... :lol:
More "down below" shots
The first three shots are of the rocker panel area, which hasn't yet received it's (gloss black, right Jim?) blackout treatment just yet. Normally, that treatment would extend all the way forward past the fender bolts and flange. A Daytona's blackout treatment isn't found on the fender bolts or flanges, as that sheet metal wasn't installed until after arriving at Creative Industries.
More of the underside
Quote
It will probably make its debut at either the Monster Mopar show (sorta my "home" event anyway) or at the DSAC meet in Talladega. Either would be fine with me.
I'll look forward to seeing it as I'm planning on going to both this year.
I remember checking out your hauler last year at MMW and already decided that it is probably more detailed than any of my cars will be!
I wish you luck, I have the dash and lower control arms out of my 'Bird as we speak, and am getting worried about getting it all back together! :P
Keep up the good work, and keep the pictures coming!
:whistling:
Quote from: 70Sbird on May 07, 2009, 09:37:05 PM
I'll look forward to seeing it as I'm planning on going to both this year.
I remember checking out your hauler last year at MMW and already decided that it is probably more detailed than any of my cars will be!
I wish you luck, I have the dash and lower control arms out of my 'Bird as we speak, and am getting worried about getting it all back together! :P
Keep up the good work, and keep the pictures coming!
:lol: The truck gets more looks and/or attention than anything I have ever owned, except for the time I brought this Daytona (unrestored of course) to the MMW.
I know what you're saying about getting stuff done. My R/T was down all winter after the speedometer started acting funny - and then we broke a wheel stud changing out the steelies back to the 15x8 Magnums . Just got it back on the road after only 5 months of downtime for two fairly simple repairs... Speedy Gonzales I am not...
The last two pictures are the spot welds still visible in the rear wheelwell from the decklid hinge support bracket. It just looked cool to me, but I'm easily entertained too...
:whistling:
:whistling:
:blahblah:
:paintingpink:
:pushup:
:sleep:
:image_294343:
OK, enough of the underbody stuff... :horse: :lol:
These pics (last of the batch this time around) are of the door bottom blackout treatment, with the very last one being the door jamb/pillar treatment on the inside.
That's all for now... *whew*
:o
you realize the rest of us doing restos are going to be held up to your standard of documentation. :icon_smile_blackeye:
just wanna give everyone a heads up................not happening here. Ill do my best but it wont be like this.
Quote from: FJ5WING on May 07, 2009, 10:41:40 PM
:o
you realize the rest of us doing restos are going to be held up to your standard of documentation. :icon_smile_blackeye:
just wanna give everyone a heads up................not happening here. Ill do my best but it wont be like this.
Thats my first thought.. :-\
GENO !!!!! All I can say is "WOW" !!!!!! The 'Tona's looking great..............
Quote from: PocketThunder on May 08, 2009, 12:22:53 AM
Quote from: FJ5WING on May 07, 2009, 10:41:40 PM
:o
you realize the rest of us doing restos are going to be held up to your standard of documentation. :icon_smile_blackeye:
just wanna give everyone a heads up................not happening here. Ill do my best but it wont be like this.
Thats my first thought.. :-\
Well, here's what has prompted me to shoot for this level of documentation...
> This is my first concours-level restoration
> I love soaking up all the intricate details - especially when it comes to Aero/Daytona-specific stuff
> My memory stinks, so if I didn't photo-document and put the narrative with it while the details are fresh in my mind, I'm apt to forget a bunch of stuff
> Posting the pictures and narrative helps others learn some of those same details
> I've kicked myself a bunch of times for not taking even more pictures than I did of the car before it was restored, and didn't want to have the same regrets after the resto was done - and the majority of these pictures couldn't be taken after-the-fact
> When the whole process is done, I'll be able to put together a pretty thorough pictoral history of the car's restoration which would help in the (hopefully unlikely) event I ever needed to sell the car
> I thoroughly enjoy looking at others' restoration threads like Allen's, CornDog's, Troy H.'s, etc., whether they're Aerocars or not
> I figured being a Moderator 'round here pretty well obligated me to do more than cursory updates
> Danny still puts me to shame with documentation, he just doesn't post nearly every picture he takes
There's no threshhold being set (by me, anyway) for documenting a restoration. Trust me, I know how much work it is to keep a restoration thread documented to this degree - and that's not necessary for a restoration effort to be enjoyed and appreciated in my book anyway. Post what you can when you can - nothing more.
I am really sorry guys, this thread wasn't meant to be a "this is how resto threads are done on DC.com" type of thing... :blush2: I'll knock off with the updates and let the thread die if it's a problem.
Quote from: hemi68charger on May 08, 2009, 06:47:39 AM
GENO !!!!! All I can say is "WOW" !!!!!! The 'Tona's looking great..............
Thanks, Troy!
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 09:02:02 AM
Quote from: PocketThunder on May 08, 2009, 12:22:53 AM
Quote from: FJ5WING on May 07, 2009, 10:41:40 PM
:o
you realize the rest of us doing restos are going to be held up to your standard of documentation. :icon_smile_blackeye:
just wanna give everyone a heads up................not happening here. Ill do my best but it wont be like this.
Thats my first thought.. :-\
Well, here's what has prompted me to shoot for this level of documentation...
> This is my first concours-level restoration
> I love soaking up all the intricate details - especially when it comes to Aero/Daytona-specific stuff
> My memory stinks, so if I didn't photo-document and put the narrative with it while the details are fresh in my mind, I'm apt to forget a bunch of stuff
> Posting the pictures and narrative helps others learn some of those same details
> I've kicked myself a bunch of times for not taking even more pictures than I did of the car before it was restored, and didn't want to have the same regrets after the resto was done - and the majority of these pictures couldn't be taken after-the-fact
> When the whole process is done, I'll be able to put together a pretty thorough pictoral history of the car's restoration which would help in the (hopefully unlikely) event I ever needed to sell the car
> I thoroughly enjoy looking at others' restoration threads like Allen's, CornDog's, Troy H.'s, etc., whether they're Aerocars or not
> I figured being a Moderator 'round here pretty well obligated me to do more than cursory updates
> Danny still puts me to shame with documentation, he just doesn't post nearly every picture he takes
There's no threshhold being set (by me, anyway) for documenting a restoration. Trust me, I know how much work it is to keep a restoration thread documented to this degree - and that's not necessary for a restoration effort to be enjoyed and appreciated in my book anyway. Post what you can when you can - nothing more.
I am really sorry guys, this thread wasn't meant to be a "this is how resto threads are done on DC.com" type of thing... :blush2: I'll knock off with the updates and let the thread die if it's a problem.
dont you dare knock off we love every bit of it , great job
I personally thought you might be going alittle over board holding your whole restoration up on the nose rubber close outs . kudo's to you and to your credit for holding out for the correct look and texture they look just amazing and correct .
Quote from: moparstuart on May 08, 2009, 09:24:04 AMdont you dare knock off we love every bit of it , great job
I personally thought you might be going alittle over board holding your whole restoration up on the nose rubber close outs . kudo's to you and to your credit for holding out for the correct look and texture they look just amazing and correct .
:iagree: Whoa horsey! Please keep posting as much detail as you can. It gives guys like me a better vision on how to go about doing my car correctly (or better than i had originally planned) someday.
I was certainly not implying that you are putting yourself on a higher level than the rest of us. Heck, the only way to get better at anything is to work with someone with more experience than you. and this resto thread is an excellent source of doing things the right way.
Paul
Oh and i cant forget my monthly reminder... 177 days till Talledega there Geno :angel:
Geno,
I hope you didnt think I was complaining...................
I am so impressed with what youre doing and want to thank you for posting such a great effort. Wow do I feel like a jerk for putting you in a position to want to defend yourself.
I hope all the resto threads continue. It will give me the inspiration to document my project. Its already too late for more than the few before pics I have but I now have a better understanding of the impact a photo journal has during a restoration.
Please continue to publish your progress.
No problem guys, I'll keep things going - but it's not an attempt to shame anyone into thinking they need to post a hundred pictures at a time or don't post anything at all. Absolutely not necessary.
I'm definitely not the first person to lament not having as many photos (especially unrestored or "before" shots) as I'd like, and I have read numerous places where people are cautioned to almost over-document a car before and during the disassembly process. Like most people, I thought "that's a good idea" and then didn't really heed that advice.
If any of you guys have the chance to document your car before and during disassembly/restoration, it is worth the time and effort to do so - even if not a single picture is posted in a thread like this. You don't know how many times I've snapped a picture I thought was almost a waste, only to be looking for some inane, trivial detail later and finding it in that "throwaway" shot.
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 10:23:23 AM
No problem guys, I'll keep things going - but it's not an attempt to shame anyone into thinking they need to post a hundred pictures at a time or don't post anything at all. Absolutely not necessary.
I'm definitely not the first person to lament not having as many photos (especially unrestored or "before" shots) as I'd like, and I have read numerous places where people are cautioned to almost over-document a car before and during the disassembly process. Like most people, I thought "that's a good idea" and then didn't really heed that advice.
If any of you guys have the chance to document your car before and during disassembly/restoration, it is worth the time and effort to do so - even if not a single picture is posted in a thread like this. You don't know how many times I've snapped a picture I thought was almost a waste, only to be looking for some inane, trivial detail later and finding it in that "throwaway" shot.
:cheers:
Its a good thing i havent started my restoration yet.. :icon_smile_big: Ya, thats it, thats why i'm waiting, to take more pictures... :icon_smile_cool:
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 10:23:23 AM
If any of you guys have the chance to document your car before and during disassembly/restoration, it is worth the time and effort to do so - even if not a single picture is posted in a thread like this. You don't know how many times I've snapped a picture I thought was almost a waste, only to be looking for some inane, trivial detail later and finding it in that "throwaway" shot.
:cheers:
In the car hobby world,,,,, no truer words spoken................
Gene I think that if your behind me in taking pictures of details, then your not far behind, I think your breathing down my neck in that area. I just haven't taken any of those pictures of my own car, that is the main difference. I just pester other people to let me take pictures of their cars.
Car is coming along very nicely there Gene. Can't wait to see it finished, and then I can really snap off a few hundred photo's of the car no problem. But then again that would take away one of my main reasons for going to Michigan.
Looking great Geno!
Any chance of seeing it at Monster Mopar this year?
Absolutely incredible and utterly amazing. I'm stunned to say the least and I find myself hinging on every picture and commentary just so I can learn something. I actually don't have the words to express what I see when I look at this thread as I've learned so much about the Daytona/Aero cars from this section of the site. I can't begin to tell you how much it is appreciated that you take so much of your personal time to share a little of your life, and if I dare say so , let us be a part of your restoration. So, Bravo to you good Sir and Thank You.
Not really wanting to focus on any one part in general, but......I'm really digging the drips myself. :2thumbs:
v/r
Mike
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 10:23:23 AM
I have read numerous places where people are cautioned to almost over-document a car before and during the disassembly process.
:cheers:
I don't think over documenting is possible.You take something apart for a redo and then real life kicks in ,the next thing you know a month/year have passed-are you gonna remember exactly how it goes back together?
By the way, Who the he!! painted that car with all the primer showing?? :smilielol:
Hard to see the paint drips with the flash reflecting off the retina red.
I'm with the others who are following this thread and enjoy checking out the progress. :2thumbs:
Keep it going Hemigeno - No matter how many 100's of pics we take there are 100's more we wish we did. If you don't do it for us do it for Olga! :lol:
Thanks, guys - and I do hope that the pictures & other information are of either help or enjoyment. There's no other reason to post them.
Quote from: PocketThunder on May 08, 2009, 10:28:46 AM
Its a good thing i havent started my restoration yet.. :icon_smile_big: Ya, thats it, thats why i'm waiting, to take more pictures... :icon_smile_cool:
:lol: Just don't send the pictures to London Drug or you'll never get finished
Quote from: hemi68charger on May 08, 2009, 12:29:20 PM
In the car hobby world,,,,, no truer words spoken................
....says the voice of experience... You've probably had a lot of those same thoughts, right Troy?
Quote from: 69_500 on May 08, 2009, 02:41:31 PM
Gene I think that if your behind me in taking pictures of details, then your not far behind, I think your breathing down my neck in that area. I just haven't taken any of those pictures of my own car, that is the main difference. I just pester other people to let me take pictures of their cars.
Car is coming along very nicely there Gene. Can't wait to see it finished, and then I can really snap off a few hundred photo's of the car no problem. But then again that would take away one of my main reasons for going to Michigan.
Hmmm... my toy camera with 6.1MP of resolution vs. your Pro-series camera with a gazillion MP of resolution (or is it 1.3 gazillion, I forget)... I think I have a ways to go before I reach your level. :P Oh, and you're welcome to tag along on those Michigan visits - as soon as baseball season is over, of course!
Quote from: 694spdRT on May 08, 2009, 03:58:01 PM
Looking great Geno!
Any chance of seeing it at Monster Mopar this year?
Thanks Ty, and if the car is done by then I'll probably bring it to MMW - are you guys coming down again?
Quote from: mikepmcs on May 08, 2009, 04:36:04 PM
Absolutely incredible and utterly amazing. I'm stunned to say the least and I find myself hinging on every picture and commentary just so I can learn something. I actually don't have the words to express what I see when I look at this thread as I've learned so much about the Daytona/Aero cars from this section of the site. I can't begin to tell you how much it is appreciated that you take so much of your personal time to share a little of your life, and if I dare say so , let us be a part of your restoration. So, Bravo to you good Sir and Thank You.
Not really wanting to focus on any one part in general, but......I'm really digging the drips myself. :2thumbs:
v/r
Mike
Thanks, Mike - almost don't know what to say after that. Good to know the effort on both the car's restoration and the thread's documentation are appreciated. The only way I've learned things about these cars is by asking questions and having someone show me little details, and I can hardly get enough information like that. By passing that knowledge along, it helps preserve yet another piece of the hobby and the overall history of the cars.
I'll also chalk another vote up for liking the drips too... :P
Quote from: UFO on May 08, 2009, 04:59:58 PM
I don't think over documenting is possible.You take something apart for a redo and then real life kicks in ,the next thing you know a month/year have passed-are you gonna remember exactly how it goes back together?
By the way, Who the he!! painted that car with all the primer showing?? :smilielol:
Hard to see the paint drips with the flash reflecting off the retina red.
I'm with the others who are following this thread and enjoy checking out the progress. :2thumbs:
Thanks, Brian - and you're probably right about over-documenting not being a possibility. Real life kicking in is a big reason I've tried to get a lot of this information down while it's still floating around somewhere in the empty space between my ears.
:cheers:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 08, 2009, 05:53:45 PM
Keep it going Hemigeno - No matter how many 100's of pics we take there are 100's more we wish we did. If you don't do it for us do it for Olga! :lol:
There's one in every crowd... :rotz:
:lol:
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 05:59:17 PM
Thanks, guys - and I do hope that the pictures & other information are of either help or enjoyment.
I'm more of a lurker in the resto threads (sadly, I have nothing to contribute :'(), but hemigeno, please don't ever stop posting pics/info. Not only do they provide a source of info, but of inspiration as well. :2thumbs:
...And of course, they are a source of blinding envy. :icon_smile_cool: :icon_smile_cool: :2thumbs:
Good luck with the rest of your project.
amazing stuff.
about the upper door frame paint--wasn't that masked off so (lots of) paint didn't get in the doors? i thought there were more defined lines than the organic shoot-and-cover that's on your car.
am I just wrong, or did some cars come that way? plant specific?
Quote from: ds440 on May 08, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on May 08, 2009, 05:59:17 PM
Thanks, guys - and I do hope that the pictures & other information are of either help or enjoyment.
I'm more of a lurker in the resto threads (sadly, I have nothing to contribute :'(), but hemigeno, please don't ever stop posting pics/info. Not only do they provide a source of info, but of inspiration as well. :2thumbs:
...And of course, they are a source of blinding envy. :icon_smile_cool: :icon_smile_cool: :2thumbs:
Good luck with the rest of your project.
Thanks ds, I hope the rest of the project goes smooth and perhaps a little faster - but I'll be happy with whenever it gets done, as long as it's done
right.
Quote from: pettybird on May 08, 2009, 08:21:14 PM
amazing stuff.
about the upper door frame paint--wasn't that masked off so (lots of) paint didn't get in the doors? i thought there were more defined lines than the organic shoot-and-cover that's on your car.
am I just wrong, or did some cars come that way? plant specific?
Good question Doug. I have pictures on my work PC of the car's original door frames, so if no one else chimes in before Monday I'll check that out and report back...
The UDF color was put on first, masked off (really crudely) and the exterior color was applied anywhere and almost everywhere. Here are some pics of Doc...don't have a good overall pic but I can get one in a few days.
Being newish here, ive not seen this resto thread before. What can i say - just awesome. The level of detail and the standard of work is something i can only dream about!
looks Real good HemiGeno :yesnod: ..... with all your attention to how Creative done their handy work ...... just goes to show how they were rushed through :o ................ awesome stuff ..looking forward to seeing more progress pictures ....................... :popcrn:
WOW, WOW and more WOW. Sure looks great Gene. This incredible level of detail had me going to the beginning of this thread to see if you posted any pics of the dutchmen panel (beneath the package tray) and I didn't notice any before pics. Was yours full of disk sander marks on the hamtramck paintjob where creative might have ground down to weld the plug in? If so, do you plan on having it recreated and who is going to have the cojones to grind up that wonderful paintjob!! Thanks for the pics, I, like others that have replied, constantly check this thread to see if there is any updates. My wife must think I look like that dog on turner and hooch with all my drool!
Gene is going the extra 10 miles for sure! Go Hemigeno! I have one Daytona where the grinding on that panel is minimal and another (Doc) where they ground the snot out of it - like they weren't sure how far they should go with it.
Quote from: roger440 on May 10, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
Being newish here, ive not seen this resto thread before. What can i say - just awesome. The level of detail and the standard of work is something i can only dream about!
Thanks, roger - this has been a dream of mine for a long time too.
Quote from: tan top on May 10, 2009, 03:32:24 PM
looks Real good HemiGeno :yesnod: ..... with all your attention to how Creative done their handy work ...... just goes to show how they were rushed through :o ................ awesome stuff ..looking forward to seeing more progress pictures ....................... :popcrn:
Thanks again, tan top - rushed through isn't the half of it when Creative Industries was involved. The workers used to have races to see who could (re?)paint a car the fastest - and you don't win the race by slowing down to be neat.
Quote from: FJMG on May 10, 2009, 10:48:48 PM
WOW, WOW and more WOW. Sure looks great Gene. This incredible level of detail had me going to the beginning of this thread to see if you posted any pics of the dutchmen panel (beneath the package tray) and I didn't notice any before pics. Was yours full of disk sander marks on the hamtramck paintjob where creative might have ground down to weld the plug in? If so, do you plan on having it recreated and who is going to have the cojones to grind up that wonderful paintjob!! Thanks for the pics, I, like others that have replied, constantly check this thread to see if there is any updates. My wife must think I look like that dog on turner and hooch with all my drool!
Thanks, Robert! I dug through my "before" pictures and didn't find one of the dutchman panel you asked about. Yet another area I'm wishing I had documented better prior to the teardown. What pictures I do have of the general area show a lot of barn dust and other crud (and the back glass was still in, which made it harder yet to see) - but I don't think there was a whole lot of grinding work done.
I think Vance is still planning a lot of minor detail work in this area, such as replicating the weld marks where that same brace was installed, some of which are visible (from just the right angle) underneath. No reason to do weld marks without also working on the paint somewhat to replicate the grinding marks too.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on May 11, 2009, 09:18:13 AM
Gene is going the extra 10 miles for sure! Go Hemigeno! I have one Daytona where the grinding on that panel is minimal and another (Doc) where they ground the snot out of it - like they weren't sure how far they should go with it.
Jim, the 10 miles we may or may not be going will still put this car several miles behind a lightly-restored timecapsule like your DocTona and still a full lightyear behind the former McBryde 'Bird.
Doc's duchman panel was sure ground around on, wasn't it? :o You'd think Creative would have been practiced up on what it took to install a window plug from the C500 conversions, but apparently there was a new guy on the job the day they did Doc...
Also, I looked through all my pictures and could not find one of the original doors' upper door frame paint. I had the car and the doors sitting around for how many years and didn't snap but a fraction of the pictures I should have... :slap: In terms of what plans Vance has for detailing the doors, I dunno - but the upper door frame application does resemble something like a 'Runner moreso than a Charger. Another thing added to the list to ask about, since I'm not sure if you can see the edge of the upper door frame peeking out from around the door pad and window weatherstrips.
Gene - I am in the middle of 2 full resto's right now (AAR and 70 Charger) and I am just happy there is someone else as sick as I am out there! :lol:
My Daytona turns 40 today according to the scheduled production date, but I didn't have time to send a Birthday Card... :lol:
I'll be going north this Thursday, and will be checking out the car's progress on Friday - plus Vance and I are taking the engine to a dynamometer shop on Friday too. I'll have HP and Torque numbers to report next week, plus I'll explain what all Vance had to do to the AFB carburetor to tame it. Quite the headache.
Happy Birthday !!!!!! :cheers:
Geno, any close-ups of the bezel/lanyard system for the hood?
Troy
Troy you should have some mail. with a few close up photo's of the lanyards. If you need a larger view let me know I shrunk them(to about 30% size) to put in the email.
Hey Gene, she's looking real sweet. It's going to be awesome when done, congrat's. Thanks for sharing the pics.
WINGR/Steve
Thanks Steve,
Wanna skip a day at work and drop by Vance's on Friday? ;)
Quote from: hemigeno on June 09, 2009, 05:21:53 PM
Thanks Steve,
Wanna skip a day at work and drop by Vance's on Friday? ;)
Ah Man !!!!!! Some people have all the luck !!!! All I got to do today was tinker with my orange car and take her to the gas station for some 93.. :icon_smile_big:
Mopar trips are the best........
Quote from: hemigeno on June 09, 2009, 05:21:53 PM
Thanks Steve,
Wanna skip a day at work and drop by Vance's on Friday? ;)
I'll have to see if that is a possibility, thanks for mentioning it. What time do you think you will be there Gene? Are you spending the whole day there?
Steve
Quote from: WINGR on June 09, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
I'll have to see if that is a possibility, thanks for mentioning it. What time do you think you will be there Gene? Are you spending the whole day there?
Steve,
Davtona (Dave H.) and I will be getting to Vance's probably around 9am Friday morning, give or take a bit. We won't be hitting the motel until around 1-2am Friday morning, so my usual start time out of the blocks will be delayed a bit (our fearless leader Troy knows what time of the morning I usually roll).
That being said, one of the major activities is loading up the engine and taking it to the dyno shop. I'm not exactly sure where that is located... Grand Rapids, perhaps? I don't know if there's one around Grand Haven, Holland or Zeeland. Vance may have everything ready to go when we get there, or we may not head out until the afternoon - hard to say. If you want to give it a whirl, I can PM my cell number so you don't have to play the "Where's Hemigeno" board game... batteries not included...
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 09, 2009, 07:16:39 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on June 09, 2009, 05:21:53 PM
Thanks Steve,
Wanna skip a day at work and drop by Vance's on Friday? ;)
Ah Man !!!!!! Some people have all the luck !!!! All I got to do today was tinker with my orange car and take her to the gas station for some 93.. :icon_smile_big:
Mopar trips are the best........
Quote from: hemigeno on June 10, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: WINGR on June 09, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
I'll have to see if that is a possibility, thanks for mentioning it. What time do you think you will be there Gene? Are you spending the whole day there?
Steve,
Davtona (Dave H.) and I will be getting to Vance's probably around 9am Friday morning, give or take a bit. We won't be hitting the motel until around 1-2am Friday morning, so my usual start time out of the blocks will be delayed a bit (our fearless leader Troy knows what time of the morning I usually roll).
Yup a day off work spent tinkering with a Red Daytona that is luck!!!! :iagree: Tomorrow will drag at work for sure. But then :boogie:
Hey Gene, as much as I would love to meet up with you guys on Friday and stare at that awesome Daytona, I have too much going on at work so yet again I am going to have to wait for my chance. Thanks again for the invite and if you ever get over my way when your in town, you'll have to come by.
Have a safe and enjoyable trip. :drive:
Steve
Darn, another missed chance at seeing your car Gene. I actually requested to have tomorrow off of work (as of wednesday) but guess wasn't a long enough notice for them. Access denied to me.
Steve, sorry you couldn't make it - maybe next time...
Danny, I'd have given you more notice about the trip up north, but didn't think that your coaching responsibilities with the little league baseball season were over yet. I'm thinking the next trip will be on the way back from Carlisle, by taking the "shortcut" home through Michigan... maybe through both Detroit and Grand Haven if I can spare the time away from work.
It was a good trip overall this time 'round, as there was some progress to report plus some parts issues were resolved as well. No dyno sheet to report just yet (long story), but that will hopefully happen soon.
I'll update everything next week when I get a chance.
Tuesday night will be the last game that I am coaching for baseball this year. I think Dakota will be on the "travel all star" team, but I'm not signing up to coach that headache. I just don't want you car to feel left out, I mean I haven't taken a photo of it in nearly a year.
OK, I finally had time to resize all the pictures from the last visit to check on the car a few weeks ago. Had a dickens of a time getting the short video of the engine running on a test stand to work, and I HOPE the link below actually works:
Engine Test Stand Movie Link (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v605/hemigeno/69%20Charger%20Daytona/?action=view¤t=440EngineTest.flv)
Anyway, we weren't able to take the engine to the dyno shop as planned. I was told the owner of the shop had an accident a few days prior to my visit, and had cut his hand pretty badly. His wife told Vance that he was popping Vicodin pills like they were candy and wasn't going to be much help around the shop for a while. Vance has been to that shop enough and knows them well enough that we could have still used their dyno equipment to test/tune the engine to a point - but the owner is the only guy who can run the computer equipment which would give us numerical feedback on how the engine is running. I had taken a day off from work just for that purpose, but we didn't know how bad things actually were until that Friday morning. Oh well.
One thing that Vance discovered recently is that the reproduction fan belts look great but have enough stretch in them that they literally flip over in the pulley grooves. We ran the engine with a generic auto parts belt for the video, and right afterwards Vance swapped out to the repro belt just to show me that little trick it pulls... there must have been 4 or 5 inches of oscillation in that belt at half throttle, even though they stretched it as tight as you'd ever dare. :o
As you can see from the pictures below, they've started installing components in the engine bay in preparation for installing the mill sometime soon. It's kinda nice to start seeing some "clutter" :lol:
For those of you guys who gasped at seeing the K-member installed, have no fear - the K-frame and all the front suspension will be removed and the engine installed from underneath... just like it should be, right?
More detail/component shots from the engine bay
One last engine bay shot, and the beginnings of a series of under-dash shots. The second one also shows the window channel with the moulding retainer clips installed. It's debatable about whether the screws for these clips are a gold color (not sure if it's gold zinc or not) coating, or silver as these are. I know that gold zinc screws in that particular size are not readily obtainable - because I looked high and low for them - and Vance was still researching the issue. Even though these are concealed once the windshield seal and moulding are installed, we're still making every attempt to get the details right.
Some shots which show the wiper linkage (not totally connected) and various other under-dash components. You can see the red anodizing on the wiper arm nuts pretty clearly.
Oh yeah, the guy in that first picture is Davtona, the previous owner of this car for +/-21 years... I think he was more excited to see the car in this stage than I was (and I was happy too, for sure).
For some reason, I took a shot of the trunk lock mechanism in between more shots of the emergency brake hardware and clutch/brake pedal assembly. You can clearly see the primer showing through in areas which didn't get full paint coverage.
That E-brake pull/knob was an NOS piece which actually had a skinned-up spot on the inside edge - so I've already rounded up another one to take its place.
Three more shots of under-dash items which are all pretty hard to see once all the components, wiring harness, steering column & dash are installed.
I took some shots of the body plugs which were carefully installed. The holes for these plugs were taped off when Vance painted the underside, and some of the holes had a ridge of paint which had to be carefully scraped out of the way. If a guy just shoved the plug into the hole from the top, chances are pretty high that one of those ridges would end up flaking off - revealing a section of the primer on the underneath side of the floor pan that shouldn't be there.
These next three pictures show the passenger's side front wheel lip mouldings. This is an NOS set that I had purchased a while back, and we were all scratching our heads about how to make this set fit properly. As you can see, the bottom hole on the front leg was never pre-punched when these mouldings were installed by Creative Industries. That hole is always randomly drilled by the worker at the time of installation, and doesn't follow an exact location/pattern. It depends on how you push or hold these mouldings as to how they actually fit. The front leg was pretty straight right out of the package, however the valance has a slight curve to it. We were debating about how far back to shove that front leg, in order to get the moulding to fit tightly against the fender/valance. There was the additional question of whether the bottom edge of the moulding should be trimmed off any, or was left to hang down however it happened to fit.
Davtona was kind enough to bring up the actual set of mouldings which were originally installed on this particular car. He had (quite understandably) kept that set of mouldings for use on his other Daytona which was missing its original set. The original mouldings lined up PERFECTLY with the holes on this side - including the installer-located bottom hole. It's apparent that the Creative Industries workers did have to play around with these mouldings more than just a little to get them to fit anywhere close to snug.
Great pictures Geno !!!!
Ahhhh, I can see where the underside of the front fenders didn't have undercoating like it would "normally" have on a regular production car. I also see where the original front fender was taken off and the empty holes left. I'll have to make sure my Daytona's like this too........ Also, is your car a manual drum car? I noticed the inlet side of the master cylinder is to the outside, not the inside like my power disc car is.....
Troy
This batch of pictures shows the new driver's side front wheel lip moulding and how it fits, even more ill-fitting than the passenger's side.
Again, the original mouldings lined up perfectly with the contours of this car - including the bottom front hole. The interesting thing is that due to the distance this side's mouldings needed to come in at the bottom, the original moulding had a very visible "bump out" crease that was ignored by C.I. If we would have attempted to push this new set of mouldings in as far as you see would need to be the case, a similar crease would have been made.
Notice how far down the moulding comes/hangs - and the originals fit the exact same way.
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 30, 2009, 07:30:45 PM
Great pictures Geno !!!!
Ahhhh, I can see where the underside of the front fenders didn't have undercoating like it would "normally" have on a regular production car. I also see where the original front fender was taken off and the empty holes left. I'll have to make sure my Daytona's like this too........ Also, is your car a manual drum car? I noticed the inlet side of the master cylinder is to the outside, not the inside like my power disc car is.....
Troy
Thanks, Troy! You should find evidence of all those "quirks" unless they weren't replicated by an earlier restoration effort. And yes, this is a manual drum brake car. Out of the three old Mopars I own, the only one with power brakes is the 2-ton truck!! :brickwall:
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2009, 07:34:41 PM
And yes, this is a manual drum brake car. Out of the three old Mopars I own, the only one with power brakes is the 2-ton truck!! :brickwall:
I have to tell ya though after years behind the wheel of Dana, power brakes and an automatic feel WEIRD !!! :lol:
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 30, 2009, 07:36:22 PM
I have to tell ya though after years behind the wheel of Dana, power brakes and an automatic feel WEIRD !!! :lol:
Somehow I can see you learning to cope :rofl:
I took some front suspension shots, even though many things will change in this area. One biggie is that the entire front drum, backing plate and spindle assemblies are being swapped out for assembly-line correct units. The drums and backing plates were fairly pitted up, and Vance did the best he could with what I had to work with at the time. Since the backing plates were black phosphate coated (rather than painted), it wasn't possible to do anything with my original parts other than fill in the pits and paint with a matte finish in an attempt to replicate a phosphate coating look. With the level of detail we're trying to hit with other areas of the car, I just couldn't leave that alone. Same goes for the brake drums and spindles, which are supposed to be bare steel but needed a coat of cast-look paint to clean them up. Again, Vance and his guys did the best they could with the parts I had given them up to that point. We were actually supposed to get the replacement parts today, but I haven't heard if that happened or not.
The whole front suspension will come out prior to installation of the engine, it's just easier to mock everything up on the car. It would also have (and may yet) allow them to move the car around the shop as a rolling chassis rather than on a dolly setup.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2009, 07:42:08 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 30, 2009, 07:36:22 PM
I have to tell ya though after years behind the wheel of Dana, power brakes and an automatic feel WEIRD !!! :lol:
Somehow I can see you learning to cope :rofl:
Yeap... I am..... Still in awe I have one......
More front suspension component shots
Also...... Do you need my heater box part number stamp? I check it on my Daytona and it's the same thing..
Again, Geno, that thing of yours is AWESOME !!!!! You going to make me wanna go through what I did on the '68 with this... :brickwall:
Two more front suspension shots, and then the start of some rear end detail pictures... The rear axle bumpers are the originals, which cleaned up quite nicely. Even the white ID marks were still visible as will be seen in another picture.
Incidentally, if anyone has questions or comments about stuff they think is wrong, by all means, SPEAK UP! Vance already pointed out several things to me were incorrect - some of which I remember and some of which I do not. The car is VERY MUCH still a work in process, but I would gladly welcome any feedback and/or critique "just in case". I take very good notes, and usually bug the living daylights out of Vance peppering him with all kinds of questions which usually end up being taken care of anyway. Never hurts to ask though...
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 30, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
Also...... Do you need my heater box part number stamp? I check it on my Daytona and it's the same thing..
Again, Geno, that thing of yours is AWESOME !!!!! You going to make me wanna go through what I did on the '68 with this... :brickwall:
Thanks again, Troy... I didn't mention the heater box stamp to Vance last time I was up, because I plum forgot about it. For some reason, I had actually thought he had applied a stamp to my airbox - but didn't realize it wasn't on mine until I got home and uploaded the photos to the hard drive. My guess is he has one, but I will definitely ask next time. THANKS for the offer!!!
Oh, and do yourself a favor - just slam your hand in the car door anytime you get the urge to tear that awesome ride of yours down... the pain will be just as intense as a concours restoration effort, but will be over much quicker and even a trip to the emergency room won't cost nearly as much. :P
A front spring perch picture, and some underneath shots of a few body plugs. Looks like I could use a new Marsden nut for that bolt, doesn't it? I need to compare the trunk extension plug picture to the ones I took of maxwellwedge's DocTona. For whatever reason, the wording/lettering didn't look right - but I could be mistaken.
There are a number of items in the next several batches of pictures which will end up being changed... eventually... Again, this goes back to making the best of the parts I have to work with at the moment. The shackles are really, really nice Badalson reproductions, but I actually plan to take these off and install them on my Hemicar. Some assembly-line-style shackles should arrive soon to take these parts' place. Same goes for the exhaust hangers - these are great repro parts, but if the real-deal parts are available I have decided to make every attempt to put the correct stuff on. The tiedown plates are supposed to be bare steel, and mine were too corroded to leave bare. That necessitates the faux paint finish look as you see here, but with any luck a nice set from the desert southwest will materialize.
The third picture shows the white ID mark on the axle bumper too, which was still in place after 40 years of crud was removed.
One more shot of a repro exhaust hanger which will be replaced, followed by three shots of the brake hose setup. The flexible hose is Dana60-specific, and is just a little longer than the 8-3/4" axle's hose would be. The rigid brake line that goes up and over the differential housing will end up being replaced by another unit, as the fit of that particular line was pretty bad. They tried to straighten out and re-bend the last several inches to make it fit, without much success.
In another post, there was a discussion about differences in reverse lights. I immediately pulled up these next two pictures, thinking that I had great shots of the '69 female pigtails... both of which instead were JUST out of sight... :brickwall: Anyway, I did try to show the backside of the housings, which can't easily be seen with the fuel tank installed.
The last picture is of the upper shock mounting point.
I took a couple of shots of the trunk compartment. That trunk mat is not the one we will end up using, as a NOS tan plaid piece has been located. That one's completely wrong anyway.
Vance still has several fairly significant pieces of detail work to do in the trunk, including applying overspray in a number of areas which don't currently have any.
I took pictures of the date codes from the original bucket seat rails. Half were from early 1969, and half were from just a few days prior to the car's actual date of manufacture in mid-June. These stampings aren't visible once the seats are installed, but they're there. The unfinished one will need replaced though, as it was bent pretty badly and partially rusted through on the bottom (where the floor pan and/or carpet held some water apparently).
These last rounds of pictures are of my favorite developments from that weekend. First is the AMAZING discovery of an NOS driveshaft... Earlier in the day I had been describing my efforts to aid a guy who could end up reproducing spot-on Mopar driveshafts. Afterwards, Vance was digging through his shop trying to find some rear brake backing plates he though might be lurking around. He found the backing plates alright, but also happened across a driveshaft that he hadn't seen in quite a while. One of his guys came 'round and asked me if I knew what part number driveshaft my car should have had, and I only remembered part of it. Vance strolls around the corner with this shaft on his shoulder, and asks if it was 2996581... I checked, and sure enough, that's what it is...
Some of you guys know firsthand what a needle-in-a-haystack find this is. Unpitted driveshafts are incredibly uncommon, and NOS shafts are even rarer to stumble across. This one even has a good date code to boot!
More driveshaft porn pictures :lol:
A few more detail shots...
While there is a slight amount of surface rust, this piece should clean up incredibly well. Vance already has enough Evapo-Rust concentrate to make 30 gallons of mix. I had heard that if you take a piece of 6" PVC pipe, glue a fixed cap on the bottom end and a removable cap on the top end, it's possible to submerge a driveshaft like this without wasting a whole lot of the Evapo-Rust cleaner.
My guess is that it'll look awesome when they're done cleaning it up!
Ok - I get the hint! :slap: :icon_smile_blackeye:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 30, 2009, 08:59:16 PM
Ok - I get the hint! :slap: :icon_smile_blackeye:
Feeling guilty now, are we?
:D
When I took these pictures, they had already removed a whole bunch of that stranded shipping tape which used to be so common back in the '60s-70s. I wondered what the tape was for, until spying the shipping label in the last picture. The tape was so they could wrap some bags around the U-joints for shipping to keep grease from slinging out.
These last four pictures are from an equally-important parts discovery. I had mentioned to Davtona (the previous owner) that I wasn't sure what to do about getting a rear package tray, since the reproductions weren't as correct as I'd prefer. Dave seemed to remember that the original might be back in his shop, but didn't want to promise anything until he had a chance to look. We both had just neglected to worry about the package tray when I originally picked the car up.
Well, Dave and I both got home a little after midnight on Saturday morning from the Michigan trip. By 1:00am, Dave is ripping through his parts stash at home, and guess what he finds... the original package tray!
The first picture shows one oddity about this particular piece. Notice the blue peeking through around the edge? The whole tray was originally blue, but was dyed black - probably by Creative Industries to solve a parts shortage.
You can also see that the jute padding is date coded February of '69. I am amazed at the sheer number of parts which Chrysler date-stamped. Why on earth does PADDING need a date stamp?? ?? While it's interesting, it can be maddening 40 years later to worry about all this stuff.
Anyway, I was elated to get Dave's phone call (he managed to wait until 9am Saturday morning) letting me know what he found.
Thanks again, Dave!
:cheers:
That's all the pictures I have to post at the moment. Right now, the plans are to hit Carlisle's swap meets, and swing by Michigan either Sunday or Monday depending on when I head out from Carlisle. When I spoke with Vance earlier today, he still had not put the engine on the dyno. Maybe by then I'll have HP & torque numbers to report.
I was excited when I saw this thread in my new replies. I was not disappointed. Beautiful is all I can say and thanks again for taking the time to write everything down for us. :2thumbs:
You guys are doing a wonderful job and I'm really at a loss for words except I noticed my mouth was hanging wide open as I was reading through and looking at pictures. I actually laughed at myself because of it.
Motor sounds awesome!!!
Now I am only saying this next line because you said we could. I am way out of my league here so forgive me.
I'm sure it is mocked up like you said but the only thing that caught my eye was in the brake pedal setup. One of the bolts appears to just be hanging there while the others are straight(ie: they looked tight and the one I saw did not) I'm sure it's just not all the way put together but just in case.
Thanks again for posting. :cheers:
if you're going to pass through on Monday take the detour up to my shop--it's only about 35 mins out of the way. I know this because I just had a friend pass through from Detroit on his way to DC... it's totally worth seeing.
did you find a stripe on your axle bumpers? I found them on the '67 GTX right above the ribbed detail.
are you going to do the firewall-component overspray?
if you decide to change the muffler hangers you'll have to disconnect the exhaust to do it--I can't imagine it's worth the time.
EDIT: The brake thing......scratch what I said, I looked at the picture more closely, everything is fine. My bad. You can :slap: me.
Thanks for the kind words, Mike - and there won't be any :slap: coming from me anyway. I appreciate any feedback, as you never know what little detail can get easily overlooked. Glad you're enjoying the progress pics.
Doug, I'd love to stop off and see you guys' shop - with the caveat being when I have enough time to sufficiently drool all over that HemiDaytona and Steve's old R6 car... not to mention the other cool rides stashed around there! I may or may not be on a time budget to get home by then. It's a 15-16 hour drive to Carlisle, and I may end up having to leave home Wednesday in order to get to eastern PA by Thursday afternoon (so that I can get a prime trailer parking spot). Will the shop be open on Sunday afternoon/evening? Most of the crew may still be in PA at the show, I suppose. That's what time I may be cruising through that general vicinity, although I haven't routed anything out yet. Something to think about, for sure.
Was the stripe on my axle bumpers similar to what you found on your 'X?
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=104781)
I thought it seemed familiar from a previous discussion, and that was partly the reason I snapped that photo. And yes, the engine compartment will never look as nice as it does now... :lol: It'll get all kinds of overspray after everything's installed. If I know Vance, he'll probably put overspray on some stuff and then crudely wipe part of it off to mimic Creative's poor attempt at cleaning up after themselves. I can already hear some people (especially at local shows) commenting on what a crappy job was done on that "restored" car. Yup, just like it should be...
Oh, and we should be getting the new exhaust hangers along with the other missing pieces of the complete exhaust system. I had already found one Feb '69 muffler and correct tailpipes, but the balance of the NOS exhaust components are being bought as a package deal. Hopefully we won't have to go back and re-do any of that stuff, since you're right, 10 minutes after the car first starts up those hanger/clamp nuts will probably already be seized. :rotz:
yep--those are the stripes.
I don't know when I'm leaving to come home from Carlisle--I haven't bothered to ask the boss. :lol:
Steve's R6 car will be in our restoration tent with my white GTX at Carlisle. of course, the Hemi 'tona still needs to be drooled on. I'll find out what space the cars will be at.
I don't know when they are leaving, but we just got in a REAL '69 Yenko L72 Camaro and a '70 Boss 9...both mint and both sold. we just got a '53 Buick Skylark, too--nothing like adding nearly a million dollars' worth of inventory to the shop in three parking spaces!
proof it's good being me: the Yenko is much faster than the Boss 9 :nana:
Geno !
All I can say is ... WOW ! :o
Your car is looking TERRIFIC ! :faint:
:2thumbs: :coolgleamA:
:o :o :o :dance: wow thats looking awesome ... :drool5:
NOS drive shaft also :coolgleamA:
:popcrn:
This thread is a great source of information not only for the restoration of a Daytona Charger, but any '68 - '70 B body.
I'll be using it as a guide for the reassembly of my '68 Charger R/T, which has been apart wayyyyyyy to long.
Thanks Geno for putting it out there for everybody!
Geno, how is the Daytona comming along? Are you gonna make it to Talladega in two months? I will not be there, i couldnt swing the trip.
Paul
BTW: You dont look a day over 43.. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
Gee, thanks Paul :P
As far as the Daytona resto goes, I've had a dickens of a time getting some needed parts from one of the usual NOS parts vendors who says they have a bunch of stuff we could use. One batch finally arrived in early August, but another round of parts is still needed. Plus, there was a setback on the engine's hydraulic roller lifters that kept the engine from being painted/installed for a while longer while Vance sorted out the problem, got replacement parts and another timeslot at the dyno shop.
All of those delays mean that the Talladega reunion (and the Monster Mopar Weekend for sure) is probably out for the Daytona's debut. Good Lord willing I still plan to go, even if I have to hitchhike to get there. Sure wish you could have driven/taken the hillside hemi down for the show, as that would have been fun to see.
I've been extremely derelict in posting an update to this thread, as I've been to Vance's twice since the last round of pictures. There hasn't been just a whole lot of change in the car's condition since then though, which has contributed to my delinquency.
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on September 03, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
Gee, thanks Paul :P
All of those delays mean that the Talladega reunion (and the Monster Mopar Weekend for sure) is probably out for the Daytona's debut. Good Lord willing I still plan to go, even if I have to hitchhike to get there. Sure wish you could have driven/taken the hillside hemi down for the show, as that would have been fun to see.
:cheers:
I've got a solution for you then. :icon_smile_big: Just buy the hillside hemi, i'll drive it to your place and fly home, and you can drive it to Talladega! Its a win win situation. You'll have an aero car to drive while your other one gets finished and then there is no rush with the Daytona... :callme:
I've told more than a couple of people that my next project had better be an RV, since I have a feeling I would be sleeping in it for quite a while.
Nice try though... :lol:
Geno, the detail is simply fantastic, I can't wait to see the car up close! Thanks for posting her progress.
Quote from: hemigeno on September 03, 2009, 11:56:40 AM
I've told more than a couple of people that my next project had better be an RV, since I have a feeling I would be sleeping in it for quite a while.
Nice try though... :lol:
The C500 has a trailer hitch, i'll even throw in a pop up camper... :icon_smile_big:
Can I park in your driveway and use the washing machine every now and again? I might also need to patch into your cable TV. :P
Quote from: hemigeno on September 03, 2009, 01:08:19 PM
Can I park in your driveway and use the washing machine every now and again? I might also need to patch into your cable TV. :P
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hi guys! Does Vance cummins have a website? Can you post his contact info? Thanks
No, no website for Vance. Probably the best way to get in touch with him is through the shop phone. Don't be surprised if you get the answering machine, as he's said before that he'd never get anything done in the shop if he answered the phone every time it rang. Guess it depends on what he's in the middle of at the time.
His shop phone number is:
(616)-842-4807
Thanks for the info, what state is Vance based out from?
Quote from: mcode on September 04, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
Thanks for the info, what state is Vance based out from?
Michigan.
Troy
:o Holy smokes. Where have I been for this thread? Wow, I've never seen anything so crisp clean and perfect. Gotta run, but later one I plan on reading every page. Fantastic stuff. :2thumbs:
I'm headed up to Vance's this weekend for another visit. There hasn't been a whole lot of progress lately (for a couple of reasons), so I haven't posted an update just for the sake of increasing my post count or this thread's overall length.
There will hopefully be a few more things to report next week however, including -- if things work as planned -- a video of the engine being dyno'd for the second time.
More soon...
P.S. Thanks again for the kind comments everyone, and PT, you can halt the Talladega countdown... unless you're starting on the 2014 meet a little early :P
Quote from: hemigeno on October 02, 2009, 12:40:56 PMP.S. Thanks again for the kind comments everyone, and PT, you can halt the Talladega countdown... unless you're starting on the 2014 meet a little early :P
Oh dont worry, i already threw in the towl when i sold my C500 last month. I was just thinking how long the car has been at this shop though and i checked page 1 of this thread and you dropped it off on
November 23rd, 2006. Since you wont make the Talladega timeslot maybe you can make your 3 year aniversary in 8 weeks from now?..?? :shruggy: :angel:
Quote from: PocketThunder on October 02, 2009, 03:43:59 PM
i checked page 1 of this thread and you dropped it off on November 23rd, 2006.
Yeah, yeah, yeah... :lol:
Actually, the length of time this resto has taken is nearly all my fault. Between the time of year I dropped the car off, the need to replace the rear framerails, my pickiness/OCD on parts (especially the radiator air seals) and a few other reasons, Vance can't be blamed for too much of the 3 year timeframe. If I wanted to get the car out the door and on the road, all it would take is a phone call to YearOne and about 4-5 weeks later the car could be done. Instead, I'm still scrounging for as many "correct" parts as can possibly be found. In the end, I do think the extra time will pay off with an even better finished product than I had first imagined.
I did make it to Vance's on Saturday, but he wasn't able to schedule a weekend dyno session so that's happening today without me. Oh well. There are a few more neat pictures of the progress, but nothing earth-shaking. I'll post a photo update soon as well as the Round 2 dyno results when they come in.
3 years.................. I feel so much better about some of my resto's! :slap: :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 05, 2009, 06:29:33 PM
3 years.................. I feel so much better about some of my resto's! :slap: :lol:
Glad I could help you out there, Jim! ;) I have a while to go before reaching your level of projects (or completed/survivor cars, for that matter). One project is enough to keep me busy. :bow:
OK, let's see if I can bring this thread a bit more up-to-date from a progress standpoint. The last pictures posted were from a trip I made back in June, and since then I've made three more visits. Progress has been a bit slow, partly due to Vance's guys pounding away at a gold 2nd-Generation Barracuda project that was a big rush, but mostly due to waiting on "correct" parts from various sources.
After dragging my Hemi R/T out to the Carlisle show, I took the "shortcut" home through Michigan and left the R/T at Vance's shop for a month. Our Fearless Leader Troy had the chance to drive the car before the work was done, and he can attest it was a little cantankerous - plus the clutch was extremely touchy. Vance and his guys made a bunch of little repairs, such as replacing the MP electronic ignition with an MSD, going through the AFB carbs to correct several problems (Dick Katter does a GREAT job of rebuilding carbs cosmetically but that doesn't mean they still don't need some work), putting a thrust collar on the distributor shaft to prevent drive gear walking, fixing a nagging vibration in the transmission output shaft area, and removing the overcenter spring from the clutch pedal (the car has had a Centerforce clutch for 5-6 years, but the spring had never been removed like it should have). The result was quite impressive in my opinion, as the car now runs like I have always thought it should. I got to drive it a couple weekends ago to the Monster Mopar Show, and it is awesome... Well worth it to have a guy who knows Hemi's to play around with it...
The last two pictures were taken because of a question raised in another thread about the Organosol texture in the rear tailpanel area. Starting to look like a '69 Charger rear end again now...
The first two pictures are of the original front wheel lip mouldings, after they've been polished up. Thankfully, these are pretty much intact and didn't need a whole lot of straightening or dent-removal. The last two pictures were related to a question a while back about the fuel line routing location - which is tucked right alongside the passenger's rocker panel pinch weld flange. Vance hasn't applied the gloss black paint along that pinch panel yet, but it's coming...
A couple shots of the trunk area, and I'm sure the photo I took of the trunk light switch tab had some sort of a :nana: reference with Troy H. back then, who was looking for a tab for his new 'Tona at the time... A little late for the party now, aren't I?
I took a shot of the over-center spring, which we'll use on this car since Vance isn't installing a Centerforce clutch. He's using a Ram clutch disc with their three fork pressure plate (is that called the Borg & Beck style?). I have to admit that the C-force clutch has held up quite well in the Hemicar, whereas the McLeod clutch/pressure plate I had in it before that only lasted about 3-4 years.
The last couple of shots are of the engine compartment area... and don't worry, some of the parts you see have since been removed and given the correct plating treatment (e.g. the master cylinder lid).
The first pic was my attempt to capture the date code from the washer jug. The only jug I could find with a date which pre-dated my car's build is one from early in the '68 model year. It works for me and is "technically" correct. The rest of the pics are various shots from the engine compartment as the detailing work inches forward in preparation for the engine installation. Lots easier to do this work while not working over/around the engine...
A few perspective shots...
Wow! the car's looking great! :cheers:
Thanks, Rene! It's starting to get there, and certainly looks more like a car than it has in the past...
This batch of pictures I took to try and capture the location of the VIN stamping on the trunk rail. After thinking about it a while back, I had never documented that stamping (that I remembered), and once the trunk weatherstripping goes on it's not practical to do so.
This last pic from July was to show the wiper pivot, and the seal that goes around it. Hard to see this once the wiper arm is installed...
More from my August trip here in a second...
Geno..
The Daytona is looking absolutely stunning !!!!!! Wish I had the bank-roll to do my Daytona like my '68 and your '69, I miss the amount of detail, but definitely not the cost associated with it.........
Troy
The big news during the August visit had to do with the engine. There is a much better description of the problem we had contained in this thread link (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,61280.0.html). Here are the pics from that thread:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61280.0;attach=109900)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61280.0;attach=109901)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61280.0;attach=109902)
In general, the problem was with the hydraulic lifters/tappets. The plungers have a bad habit of sticking inside the barrel of the lifter itself, due to the tolerances being too tight. This makes the valve lash increase by, oh, about 0.100". Not good. It apparently did no harm to the engine, and the only pushrod which fell off was replaced with one of the spares Vance already had on hand. What it did do, was make us question the dyno results to the point that the engine will be re-dyno'd this week. The Comp Cams lifters were replaced with Scorpion Racing Products pieces, which are (from an external standpoint) nearly identical. The plungers and retainers are totally different though, and do not appear to have the same super-tight tolerances. So far, the people Vance has talked with on the subject have all had good luck with the SRP's. We shall see...
Quote from: hemi68charger on October 06, 2009, 10:02:05 AM
Geno..
The Daytona is looking absolutely stunning !!!!!! Wish I had the bank-roll to do my Daytona like my '68 and your '69, I miss the amount of detail, but definitely not the cost associated with it.........
Troy
Thanks, Troy! I'm on the three-year payment plan (see PocketThunder's post a little earlier), and it ain't over yet :lol:
A shot from August of the engine compartment, showing not a whole lot of changes from the month before.
The last three shots are of the tailpanel blackout treatment. If I remember right, the Organosol was applied at the factory before the color coat was applied. That means the black should be taped off, and overspray may or may not be visible - although it would mostly be hidden underneath the trim. I think Vance has intentions on doing some detail overspray here-and-there to replicate this look. More on the overall paintwork with next month's pictures...
More detail shots of the tailpanel Organosol blackout treatment, from the topside and left corner. The last picture is of the latchtray... notice a similarity there? Yep, it's Organosol also... Depending on the car (and mine is NOT the only one Vance has seen with this treatment), the latchtrays were painted either in a semi-gloss black or Organosol. Most are the semi-gloss, but this is how my tray was and it's the way we're taking it back. Vance and I talked Saturday again about whether to paint the front spoiler in Organosol, and we're still debating that subject. He already knows it'll stir up an above-average level of controversy, but again - this is not the only car which showed this original trait (despite the somewhat-foggy recollections of my car's original owner).
A couple pictures of the car still in the paint booth, although it was rolled out of there just a few days later so the gold Barracuda could be rolled in. Two of my kids went with me on this trip, which included a side-trip to the 'Nationals swap meet in Columbus, OH. They had a great time playing in the Fort Rapids water/play area while I looked through all the aisles of parts at the 'Nats. Fun was had by all...
These last two pictures are of that new driveshaft, after it's been cleaned with Evapo-rust. Vance said that flash rust appears very quickly after they pull the shaft out of the chemical bath, although it looks great when it's first cleaned off. I've heard different people talk about using a product called MP-50 or something like that... Anyone know where to get it or what else might work to prevent flash rust on bare metal?
OK, on to the pictures taken this past Saturday (I wasn't able to make a trip in September, just too many things going on and not a lot of resto action anyway). The car has been made mobile for the moment, and they've moved it out of the paint booth. When it comes time to put the engine in, they'll have it on the 2-post lift for installation from underneath.
They started installing some of the stainless trim, after polishing & straightening it all up. This first picture shows how some of that trim was damaged during installation of the A-pillar trim. We didn't worry about replacing that piece, since if we use the same holes for the A-pillar trim we'll end up skinning up that piece in the same fashion.
A couple of passenger compartment shots are followed by a shot of the roof - showing the level of orange peel in the paint that Vance would like to see on the whole car. They have been trying to "nurse" the paint by lightly sanding it down, but some areas are actually shining up as if it had been intentionally wet sanded and buffed. You'll see that in a minute...
The first two shots I took to try and show how the paint reacted differently to sanding in very close areas. You can see in the first shot that the paint looks pretty smooth - but then just a few inches over it still shows quite a bit of orange peel. We're going to address all the problem areas to make sure that the paint doesn't end up looking "too good". There should be natural differences in the spray pattern and residual texture (maxwellwedge has his cars painted by two different guys doing a side of the car each, to replicate that differential look to the "Nth" degree). For instance, Vance will try to intentionally show a difference between the doors and the fenders/hood/nosecone, since those were normally painted at two different times (Hamtramck vs. Creative Industries) by at least tow different people using two different methods.
The last two shots get into some of the fun detail stuff (at least for me, anyway). Vance went back and did some grinding/welding on the existing dutchman panel to replicate how the plug would have been installed by Creative's workers. Neat stuff in my book...
These next pictures show how the "abandoned" original Charger backlight area has been prepped to resemble exactly how it would have when Creative pulled the Charger glass out. This includes the window seal strip-caulk and all of the window clips/spacers. The second picture is a neat detail, as it shows some screwdriver marks intentionally put there by Vance to replicate how Creative's guys crudely removed the Charger rear window trim. All this detail work will be covered up by the package tray, but it's recorded here anyway.
Incidentally, there was no broken glass found in my car, which means they must not have had any trouble removing the window from my car. Often, there is a ton of broken glass from the rear window where they simply broke it out rather than wrestling with removing it in one piece.
The last picture shows a really neat detail shot which will evidence some of this work to be hidden. This picture was taken of the underneath side of the Dutchman panel from inside the trunk compartment. You can see where the welding work from the window plug (see the grinding marks above) burned through the paint on the underneath side. This is still visible at the other weld locations, but is mostly obscured by a reinforcement panel/brace inside the trunk area. Personally, I eat details like this up...
A shot of the replated door latch mechanisms, as they turned out awesome.
The next two shots are of the re-work being done on the rear valance seams. Vance and I spent more than a few minutes going through the factory engineering graphics to research where everything should start/stop. There are a few other things they're going to do related to sealers in this area which I'll report on at a later date. For instance, the reason Chrysler left this side of this particular seam open, is because they put a caulk strip on the OTHER side of the seam. They didn't want to trap any moisture inside this area, so they left it open on the outside.
The last picture is of the marker light bezel "shadow", with primer showing through as it should.
The first two pictures document the reverse lights I had found for use on the car. An earlier question about which part number is correct for a Daytona can't be answered definitively by these pictures, but this is what we're using on my car and they seem to be an exact match for what was on there originally. I did not have any parts boxes for these so I can't say what offical part number they were.
The last two pictures were taken after Vance made a comment that my car must have been converted a little later than some, because it has several additional rear glass trim clips installed in comparison to some other cars Vance has restored. He had remarked back then how difficult it was to get those cars' rear glass trim to fit nicely, but the additional clips found on my car should make it a snap. He put a clip anywhere there was a screwhole on my car, which is where Creative's workers installed them since the glass had never been out of my car.
Another point about the last two pictures is that the screw holes for the black spacers (not the olive-drab clips) normally found on Charger glass were not "tapped out" as they would have been if a screw had been installed. Vance has installed a screw just to mark where the hole is, but he's not sure whether to install a spacer clip there or not. In the end it won't be visible, but it's odd that there was not apparently a spacer clip ever installed. Also, you'll note that the screws for all the clips are a gold-color. These were replated (from a silver-cad type finish) to match how the original screws look. Again, this won't be seen once the trim is installed, except in pictures like these.
I took these first two pictures to show a pretty noticeable dent that Creative had somehow managed to put in the original dutchman panel. Since the glass had never been out of this car, it's hard to imagine how a dent of that magnitude could have been put there by anyone other than a Creative employee. Wonder if someone stood up there for some reason? :scratchchin:
The last two are just some perspective shots of the car.
An additional overall shot of the car, plus one from underneath showing a glimpse of the rear undercarriage.
The last shot for this batch is one I took of the new cigar lighter element/knob I purchased several years ago. A thread on Moparts a while back about lighter knobs got me to thinking about what was "correct" for a late '69 B-body. Anyone still have their original lighter knob? I don't think it should look like this. Vance is pretty sure it should have no knurling and be much "thinner" in the area of the knob where the knurling currently is. He had a pretty nice condition knob that will work great if it's polished up a bit, I just forgot to take a picture of it. I'd still appreciate any input on what other (especially mostly-original) cars have for their knobs...
That's all for now, anyway. I will post up the engine dyno results when Vance gets them to me, which will probably be in the next couple of days.
:notworthy:
Very, very nice Gene! Were you able to do something with those exhaust hangers?
I have drive shaft envy! You are now in the home stretch - exciting times! :2thumbs:
Thanks Troy & Jim!
About the hangers, I saw them sitting on the shelf last Saturday. Vance had looked them over after Carlisle and gave them the Good Housekeeping seal of approval - except for the punched square hole which he thought he could add. The ones on the car right now are the repops (from Frank Badalson, I think), which are pretty nice all things considered.
Jim, do you use MP-50? Ever heard of the stuff and/or know where to get some?
Quote from: hemigeno on October 06, 2009, 11:33:18 AM
Thanks Troy & Jim!
About the hangers, I saw them sitting on the shelf last Saturday. Vance had looked them over after Carlisle and gave them the Good Housekeeping seal of approval - except for the punched square hole which he thought he could add. The ones on the car right now are the repops (from Frank Badalson, I think), which are pretty nice all things considered.
Jim, do you use MP-50? Ever heard of the stuff and/or know where to get some?
is this the right stuff ? http://www.jetlube.com/jetlube/uploads/pdf/msdspdf/mp50.pdf
Quote from: moparstuart on October 06, 2009, 12:12:27 PM
is this the right stuff ?
I dunno if that's it or not. I gathered from this Moparts.com thread/post (http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=A12&Number=5103238&Searchpage=1&Main=5099322&Words=%2BMP50+%2Brust&topic=&Search=true#Post5103238) from 6bbl69 that MP50 was a Mopar spray-on product. Not having seen the stuff, I can't say for sure whether it's a paste or aerosol product. Thanks for the link, Stuart!
Quote from: hemigeno on October 06, 2009, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 06, 2009, 12:12:27 PM
is this the right stuff ?
I dunno if that's it or not. I gathered from this Moparts.com thread/post (http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=A12&Number=5103238&Searchpage=1&Main=5099322&Words=%2BMP50+%2Brust&topic=&Search=true#Post5103238) from 6bbl69 that MP50 was a Mopar spray-on product. Not having seen the stuff, I can't say for sure whether it's a paste or aerosol product. Thanks for the link, Stuart!
it does say its a lubricant that stays on and prevents corrosion ?
thats looking fantastic !! love the details of having whats looks like a original back glass in it :yesnod: & rear plug welding :coolgleamA: , awesome stuff :popcrn:
Quote from: moparstuart on October 06, 2009, 02:32:55 PM
it does say its a lubricant that stays on and prevents corrosion ?
Yep, I saw that and it could be that's the stuff. Still researching though.
As a possible alternative for MP50, I found another thread with info on a company that sells a line of Cosmoline products:
http://www.schafco.com/cosmoline.asp
It sounds like their "Rust Veto" is a similar product to MP50 (their WeatherShed product is apparently what we all think of when someone mentions "Cosmoline"), but again I have tried none of these products. Just looking for something to put on that driveshaft which will keep the flash rust away without being overly noticeable.
Quote from: tan top on October 06, 2009, 02:45:07 PM
thats looking fantastic !! love the details of having whats looks like a original back glass in it :yesnod: & rear plug welding :coolgleamA: , awesome stuff :popcrn:
Thanks, tt!
Quote from: hemigeno on October 06, 2009, 11:19:36 AM
The last shot for this batch is one I took of the new cigar lighter element/knob I purchased several years ago. A thread on Moparts a while back about lighter knobs got me to thinking about what was "correct" for a late '69 B-body. Anyone still have their original lighter knob? I don't think it should look like this. Vance is pretty sure it should have no knurling and be much "thinner" in the area of the knob where the knurling currently is. He had a pretty nice condition knob that will work great if it's polished up a bit, I just forgot to take a picture of it. I'd still appreciate any input on what other (especially mostly-original) cars have for their knobs...
I suspect, but can't absolutely confirm, that I have the original lighter knob in my car. Mine has no knurling is much "thinner" in the area of the knob where the knurling on the one shown is. Mine also has "Calco 12V" stamped in the barrel portion.
As for the area where the original Charger window was, I was thrilled to find the original molding clips in there! It was like "almost NOS" freebies! It's been a few years since I did mine, but it looks like yours has more clips in the Daytona plug than mine did.
Yours is Lookin good!
Thanks, Dave!
Does the knob you have resemble the center one in the picture below (picture from Moparts.com)?
It sure does!
Light 'em up! (although I usually mean the tires)
Gads...now you have me wondering what my lighter knob looks like. :shruggy:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 06, 2009, 11:19:36 AM
The last shot for this batch is one I took of the new cigar lighter element/knob I purchased several years ago. A thread on Moparts a while back about lighter knobs got me to thinking about what was "correct" for a late '69 B-body. Anyone still have their original lighter knob? I don't think it should look like this. Vance is pretty sure it should have no knurling and be much "thinner" in the area of the knob where the knurling currently is. He had a pretty nice condition knob that will work great if it's polished up a bit, I just forgot to take a picture of it. I'd still appreciate any input on what other (especially mostly-original) cars have for their knobs...
Mine out of the Green Daytona looks like the one on the right. More cone shaped underneath. And it has CUNO 12V stamped around the top part of the barrel. You can see that in the Moparts picture also if you look close. You know the car Gene & it's history. It was in the car tonight when I checked. I believe it to be the original. Sounds like there may be a couple differnet versions used. :shruggy:
verry nice.. :2thumbs: i am jalous! :)
Hey Geno, man she's looking great. Love the detail work, it will all be worth it in the end, right? :2thumbs:
:popcrn:
WINGR/Steve
Wow Gene, I haven't visited this thread in a while....since it was in primer! Didn't realize it was in paint & on 4 tires!!
Hopefully you are gonna make a how-to book on the resto for future reference?
I noticed it has the green plug on the dana, I have an original around here somewhere from a 1970 Coronet Dana rear and it's red.
I always thought the green one was for E-body danas and red was B-body danas . But considering your research on this I'm probably wrong :slap:
I had asked about a similar green plug that read CLOVER 203 on it on a friends original superbirds dana 60 .And I was able to relocate this response to my question from Roger Gibson & Dave Patik
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_1165.jpg)
This unrestored hemi superbird is refered to having a green plastic plug CLOVER 260
http://wwnboa.org/hsrs.htm
Now we're looking at the Dana 60 axle-this car is a 4-speed so we have a Dana 60. These cars came with drum brakes on the rear and here we can notice the right side brake line, behind the shock absorber, was never put in its little clamp where it's supposed to be. Perhaps it was not put in there when it was built so many years ago. Here we can see how the brake line curves up over the differential and then it extends to a little junction. On the driver's side of the differential, under the vent cap, we have a little green plug. This plug seems to be an identification maybe of an inspector.
It says "Clover 260" in embossed numbers and the plug is made out of green plastic and it is painted flat black like the entire rearend assembly.
I think I have seen different colors - all originals say "Clover" - I'll check out some of my original stuff and report.
Re: MP50
I finally remembered to check a can. Mopar part # 04549626AB
I use it on a lot of stuff.
Quote from: gtx6970 on October 09, 2009, 08:55:59 PM
I noticed it has the green plug on the dana, I have an original around here somewhere from a 1970 Coronet Dana rear and it's red.
I always thought the green one was for E-body danas and red was B-body danas . But considering your research on this I'm probably wrong :slap:
Bill,
I have held off on replying to your question so I could do the research now that you "accused" me of having done previously :P
To be honest, I think there's a red plug in the axle now.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=111862)
Here's a picture from around the time the axle was installed:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=104785)
As for which color is correct, the email Dave posted above
(thanks for posting that too, BTW!) from Roger Gibson is about all I have seen that says much about Dana plug colors. Couldn't find any info in the MMC Detroit stuff that I still have here (Vance has my other book), and a few hours scouring/searching Moparts' archives and a few other resources didn't yield anything definitive. I know I had given Vance a repro red plug from Frank Badalson, but there's a pretty high chance that Vance put an original piece in there - he's remarkably well stocked on little detail items like that. I'll double-check next time I'm up there.
It also could be that this plug still needs a coat of gloss black paint too - if the plug was indeed installed before the housing was painted. In fact, he may need to clean out the paint in the hole and on the threads too, plus make a "shadow" effect on the housing behind the plug. The paint probably didn't stick really well to the red plastic, but perhaps some remnants would still be visible. Yet another thing to inquire about... which is just fine. I love the fine detail points like this! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Kismgby on October 07, 2009, 03:30:14 PM
Gads...now you have me wondering what my lighter knob looks like. :shruggy:
That's sortof what happens to me when I read stuff like that Moparts thread too - never gave it a thought, and then can hardly rest until I find out what's there and/or what's "correct".
It's a sickness... :lol:
Quote from: Davtona on October 07, 2009, 06:01:38 PM
Mine out of the Green Daytona looks like the one on the right. More cone shaped underneath. And it has CUNO 12V stamped around the top part of the barrel. You can see that in the Moparts picture also if you look close. You know the car Gene & it's history. It was in the car tonight when I checked. I believe it to be the original. Sounds like there may be a couple differnet versions used. :shruggy:
Thanks for the feedback, Dave! Hope you don't get tired of checking out all these silly questions I have for you. The green Daytona used to rest quietly in your shop, until I started pestering you about details on it... There's hardly a crack or crevice that I haven't asked you to take a peek at for me! :rofl:
Quote from: nelson_audet on October 08, 2009, 07:45:36 AM
verry nice.. :2thumbs: i am jalous! :)
Thank you for the compliment Nelson, although I would add that committing to a restoration of this type also comes with the risk of BEING committed! :coocoo:
Quote from: WINGR on October 08, 2009, 11:10:06 PM
Hey Geno, man she's looking great. Love the detail work, it will all be worth it in the end, right? :2thumbs:
Thanks, Steve - and I do hope all the effort will be worth it. Even if no one else is, I think I'll be satisfied that just about everything that could be done "correctly" was... that is if I ever stop researching and making little changes along the way!!
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on October 09, 2009, 05:50:38 AM
Wow Gene, I haven't visited this thread in a while....since it was in primer! Didn't realize it was in paint & on 4 tires!!
Hopefully you are gonna make a how-to book on the resto for future reference?
Chris, whereya been, pal?? :slap: :lol:
The problem with trying to do a how-to book would be my lack of skills in the bodywork area. That's where a lot of the really nice transformation and detail work has been done. It'd be sorta like asking Bob Costas to write a how-to book about winning 8 gold medals in Olympic swimming competition
a la Michael Phelps. He may be able to describe
what is happening to the viewers quite eloquently, but knowing
how it is done... well, let's just say that's just like me and bodywork...
Maybe I should start looking for a ghost writer who used to work in a bodyshop! :P
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 10, 2009, 09:28:21 PM
I think I have seen different colors - all originals say "Clover" - I'll check out some of my original stuff and report.
Thanks for checking your stuff out for me, Jim - and thanks for the part number on the MP-50. I'll pass that along to Vance right away!
:cheers:
:scratchchin: I might have a few of those plastic pieces maybe all green ones .I used to save those obscure items.
May have to bug you about one, if they're "supposed" to be green ones...
:cheers:
I dug one up today I had that shows evidence of black paint and says clover 203
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/DANA.jpg)
Quote from: nascarxx29 on October 30, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
I dug one up today I had that shows evidence of black paint and says clover 203
So far the unofficial survey I've taken has yielded the collective opinion that '70+ cars had both green and red plugs, but that '69s should all be red (or more accurately, a maroonish/clay red). Guess that's what I'm going to be scrounging for pretty soon. Also, the consensus is that the plugs were installed prior to the axle's paint application as your original plug's picture shows, which only makes sense to me. We'll be taking care of this little issue at some point, but it's an easy one to handle on down the road. Thanks for the pic though, Dave!!
I need to update this thread with the results of the past 3 weeks or so, as a pretty cool thing happened in the "ultra-correct" parts department. Next week I'll write up the news...
I was going to wait and post an update after making a Michigan trip this weekend, but Dave and I won't be headed north at least for a couple weeks. Vance apparently has the flu... :eek2: Members of my family have already had the regular flu AND the swine flu in the past month, so I really don't want to do the "collect the whole flu bug set" thing and bring back whatever strain Michigan has floating around.
Anyway, here's what's been going on over the past few weeks. As most of you guys know, I spent about 9 months scouring the country looking for a rubber manufacturer who could produce a flat/masticated rubber product similar to the radiator air seals inside the nosecone. Yeah, yeah - I know several guys are groaning right now - but this is a neat thing so don't scroll down just yet!
A few months back, I was told of a gentleman in Tennesee who had bought an absolute treasure trove of genuine, Creative-Industries-issued Daytona parts back around 1973 or so. His haul included the following (and more, but this is just the big stuff):
Nosecone shell
Z-brackets
Frame mounting brackets (crash bars)
Latchtray
Headlight buckets
Headlight pods
All of the mounting hardware for the pods (springs, clips, plates, etc).
Actuators
Nosecone wiring harness (with the Daytona part number!)
Lower valance
Lower valance seals & bracketry
Front spoiler
License plate bracket
What was labeled as a matched pair of Daytona nose-to-fender seals (more on this later)
Hood-to-nosecone seal
Hood
Daytona fenders, with modified lower front corner and grille screens installed
Fender scoops
A-pillar mouldings
Doors
Rear window plug
Decklid
Lower trunk extensions
Wing washers
Wing braces
Wing - complete
Wing washer gaskets
And the piece de resistance, a set of radiator air seals complete, except for one Lower Fender Splash Shield
The man sent me a DVD of this parts stash (all the parts mentioned above are NOS), which nearly caused me to fall out of my chair. What an incredible collection! The price for all the above when he bought it?
$500 (in 1973-4 dollars, of course) :o
I won't go into the specifics of what he's doing with the parts, but suffice it to say that the majority of what he's got is already being used by him. The reason we ended up conversing has to do with the aforementioned nose-to-fender seals. His parts were tagged as being a complete set (3412668-9), but in actuality he has two 3412669 seals - driver's side only. There's another story about why he has two of the same seals, but that will have to wait.
As it turns out, he was interested in securing a couple sets of NOS/correct '70 Charger seals I had collected when we were planning to "make our own" NOS fender seals by somehow fusing two '70 Charger seals together to make the extended-length Daytona seal. That's how Creative, Goodyear, or some other vendor made them back in 1969, so I had figured we could replicate the process if given the same parts. That whole process became unnecessary when Vance was able (after David Patik gave me some tips) to refurbish my original fender seals to like-new condition. Which means, I didn't need the '70 Charger seals after all - but this gentleman did.
Long story short - like I've ever done that before :slap: - we worked a deal between us where he received my seals plus a repro set of air seals and I was able to get his set of rubber air seals and a set of wing gaskets. The one piece his set was missing happened to be one of the few salvageable pieces from my original car's seals. Which means, my car is now sporting a complete set of original-material air seals, most of which is NOS.
*whew*
I asked Vance to compare the NOS material to the reproductions as carefully as he could. His response was that the texture on the repro's was very close to the originals, but that even though we post-cured the repro rubber to a fairly stiff level, those original pieces were even stiffer. The word Vance used was "more petrified". That evidenced itself when they went to install the single piece which ties the radiator yoke to the lower valance and covers up a bracket/brace connection point. They went to bend that 40-year-old seal around the brace, and it ended up splitting the rubber. We're debating about whether to replace that particular piece with one of the slightly-more-flexible repro pieces or to leave it as-is. No decision on that just yet.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 03:36:55 PM
I was going to wait ......
OK, I won't completely quote the above statement.. It's more than a mouthful............. Double Whew !!!!
Talk about my horse-trading ideas.......
This has got to be one of the most thought out restorations in history..........
:2thumbs:
Troy
Along a semi-related note, the fact that those air seals became available created another problem. The nosecone had to come off. :brickwall:
The lower fender splash shields actually "wrap around" the frame mounting brackets (aka crash bars), and they have to be installed before the nosecone. Vance wasn't terribly enthusiastic about taking the nosecone off, as it raised the distinct possibility that something would get tweaked during the removal/reinstallation and either damage the paint or end up not fitting as well as it did prior to removal. They solved that problem by leaving the latchtray bolted in place while the nosecone was off, which helped keep everything lined up. It worked, which meant that Vance and his guys didn't burn me in effigy after all (as far as I know :P ).
Vance and I had also talked over the past month or so about how to handle a few problem areas in the paint. In the last batch of pictures, I showed some areas where the texture/orange peel just wasn't as uniform as Vance would like it. Not being exactly the same everywhere is to be expected (right, Jim?!?!?), but the problem was that some of the areas had just a hint of a powdery texture. Right after the car was painted, Vance explained about the paint drying out, which I understand. At the time, we had assumed these areas could be "nursed" (as Vance put it) into more of the orange peel look we were going for. The problem was, when they went to sand down these problem areas it ended up making them smooth no matter how lightly they tried to hit it. THAT is a problem. Of course, we could always have left it alone and just pretended that a Hamtramck or Creative Industries worker had to sand down and/or touch-up a scuff or other blemish in the paint. Just leaving it alone would have bugged both Vance and I - and it would have bugged me moreso.
So, we agreed that it needed to be sanded down and re-sprayed. That's exactly what Vance has done, and it reportedly turned out awesome. Without going into great detail, the body was broken into sections and sprayed out so that he had adequate time between coats, but kept the uniformity where it should be and differences where there should be different. I'll hopefully have pictures and a better description of what/why he did things after the next trip.
Quote from: hemi68charger on November 12, 2009, 03:52:23 PM
Talk about my horse-trading ideas.......
Where do you think I get those horse-trading ideas from?
:P
P.S. Thanks, Troy! It's been a learning experience throughout, that's for sure
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on November 12, 2009, 03:52:23 PM
Talk about my horse-trading ideas.......
Where do you think I get those horse-trading ideas from?
:P
P.S. Thanks, Troy! It's been a learning experience throughout, that's for sure
... And the H99N99 Troy-Trade ™ Flu continues to spread... :lol: Gene, you gotta tell us more about this guy someday in the future!
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Unrelated another mention of a NOS daytona front clip.Nice stash of parts if you can find them and buy them
Re: hemicuda and superbird...
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2009, 09:29:15 PM » Quote Modify
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I stopped in Great lakes mopars tent always they had wingcar stuff .And said had more elsewhere like a nos daytona front clip
I agree with Allen
Gene, you gotta tell us more about this guy someday in the future!
Would also make nice reference material original parts pictures and # numbers to add for aero car website if shared
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 12, 2009, 04:51:12 PM
Would also make nice reference material original parts pictures and # numbers to add for aero car website if shared
Dave,
I do not have the owner's permission to post the pictures he sent, nor will I post a GoogleEarth map/screenshot of his personal residence.
::)
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Brian,
I occasionally pick up lost and weary travellers from Iowa in Joliet or LaSalle. :lol:
If you can work it into your schedule some weekend, my normal routine is to head up Friday afternoon, spend most of the day Saturday drooling over the rides in Vance's shop, and then cruise back Saturday night. I'll drop you a note when I'm planning the trip in December (this trip I have to take a shortcut from St. Louis to Grand Haven which goes through Silver Lake, Wisconsin :P ). You'd have a great time talking shop - literally - with Vance.
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 06:15:52 PM
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Brian,
I occasionally pick up lost and weary travellers from Iowa in Joliet or LaSalle. :lol:
If you can work it into your schedule some weekend, my normal routine is to head up Friday afternoon, spend most of the day Saturday drooling over the rides in Vance's shop, and then cruise back Saturday night. I'll drop you a note when I'm planning the trip in December (this trip I have to take a shortcut from St. Louis to Grand Haven which goes through Silver Lake, Wisconsin :P ). You'd have a great time talking shop - literally - with Vance.
:cheers:
Sounds very cool....Sign me up!!
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 06:09:10 PM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 12, 2009, 04:51:12 PM
Would also make nice reference material original parts pictures and # numbers to add for aero car website if shared
Dave,
I do not have the owner's permission to post the pictures he sent, nor will I post a GoogleEarth map/screenshot of his personal residence.
::)
On second thought, I retract my request... :eek2: I should not have skipped the afternoon cup of coffee... :P
Gene,
I retract my statement. I finally found the one I have from a 1970 Coronet R/T Dana and it's green. I thought for sure it was red ( it's an old age thing )
Also it appears to have been installed when the axle was hot as it appears to have some resemblemence of threads on the tapered side where it goes into the hole . Or the natural heat from the axle combinded with age melted threads into it over time- see pics
again my apologies , I should have known better than question you
tapered side
Quote from: gtx6970 on November 12, 2009, 07:34:39 PM
again my apologies , I should have known better than question you
HA!! No need to apologize Bill, I've learned more stuff from guys correcting my (many) mistakes...
Thanks for the pictures though - got any of a red one? Vance said they were a clay/brick red rather than bright red like the current repops. Interesting detail with the threads though!
:cheers:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 12, 2009, 04:37:52 PM
Unrelated another mention of a NOS daytona front clip.Nice stash of parts if you can find them and buy them
Re: hemicuda and superbird...
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2009, 09:29:15 PM » Quote Modify
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I stopped in Great lakes mopars tent always they had wingcar stuff .And said had more elsewhere like a nos daytona front clip
I got the fellow with the burnt Daytona to buy that from Great Lakes a year or two ago.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 06:15:52 PM
Brian,
I occasionally pick up lost and weary travellers from Iowa in Joliet or LaSalle. :lol:
Yes Brian I can confirm Gene does that. He has several nice services he offers actually. Hemi Car taxi service, Hemi Car loaner service and 2 day trips to beautiful southern Michigan. :smilielol: You'll be amazed at the place and Vance's work. I never leave without learning many things I did not know. :2thumbs:
Sounds like all is good Geno - Now - where to find some seals for my '70 Charger....... :scratchchin:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 12, 2009, 07:37:57 PM
Quote from: gtx6970 on November 12, 2009, 07:34:39 PM
again my apologies , I should have known better than question you
HA!! No need to apologize Bill, I've learned more stuff from guys correcting my (many) mistakes...
Thanks for the pictures though - got any of a red one? Vance said they were a clay/brick red rather than bright red like the current repops. Interesting detail with the threads though!
:cheers:
Sorry Gene, But this one is the only one I have. I had thoughts of having a run made. I knew a guy locally who was willing to do small run plastic injection molded parts
Ok Jim I didnt know if it was Delbert stringers parts or Great lakes you dont find everyday NOS daytona clips
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Hey - Your Avy is my old car!
Quote from: nascarxx29 on November 12, 2009, 07:53:13 PM
Ok Jim I didnt know if it was Delbert stringers parts or Great lakes you dont find everyday NOS daytona clips
Dave - No you don't for sure - It was a lot of clams but he needed it - Car is coming together very nicely!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 07:53:23 PM
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Hey - Your Avy is my old car!
.....and your old car is FREAKIN AWESOME!!
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 07:59:12 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 07:53:23 PM
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 12, 2009, 04:26:30 PM
Geno, I'm gonna have to check that thing out sometime. If you are ever looking for a co-pilot when go fro a visit to Vances and you want to swig through here let me know.
Sounds like some great progress.
Hey - Your Avy is my old car!
.....and your old car is FREAKIN AWESOME!!
Thanks for reminding me! :icon_smile_blackeye:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 07:44:59 PM
Sounds like all is good Geno - Now - where to find some seals for my '70 Charger....... :scratchchin:
Jim, I still have a pair of them if you need. Both are NOS, but only one (the driver's side) is the "correct" style with the molded tips holding the reinforcing channel in place. The other/later style has the reinforcing channel held on with rivets. Both were Chrysler-issued parts. Last time I checked - which was at the Nats - Great Lakes was selling a mis-matched set like this. With any luck, they have the "correct" style passenger's side. Might be worth a phone call anyway.
Say the word and they're yours... for a NOS part to be named later... (j/k - I'll send 'em if you need 'em)
I take back everything i have ever said about you! :lol: :cheers:
Hey..I have dibs on Gene's left overs!
Bodywork beginning in next couple weeks on mine!
Were you guys making deals while everyone was in 'Dega? :smilielol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:22:11 PM
Were you guys making deals while everyone was in 'Dega? :smilielol:
Hey, we had to do SOMETHING to entertain ourselves while you guys were having all that fun... :brickwall:
Quote from: johntpr on November 12, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
Hey..I have dibs on Gene's left overs!
Bodywork beginning in next couple weeks on mine!
Great to hear your car is headed in the right direction - looking forward to seeing some pics when you get the chance.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
I take back everything i have ever said about you! :lol: :cheers:
Seriously Jim, if you want those seals I'll send 'em. We'll consider that a downpayment on the consulting fees I'll be racking up later. Or, maybe I can get you to tell me the secret password to get through Canadian Border Patrol without a body cavity search :o Actually, I didn't remember seeing a '70 Charger in your shop - but maybe I missed it with all the :drool5: I was doing over your other awesome rides.
Quote from: johntpr on November 12, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
Hey..I have dibs on Gene's left overs!
Bodywork beginning in next couple weeks on mine!
Good news John,
Is it still in Evansville ? if you ever ride down to ck up on it, let me know I'll ride shotgun
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
I take back everything i have ever said about you! :lol: :cheers:
and it was a lot !!!! :nana:
Just Kidding Geno !!!!!!! :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 13, 2009, 09:00:07 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:22:11 PM
Were you guys making deals while everyone was in 'Dega? :smilielol:
Hey, we had to do SOMETHING to entertain ourselves while you guys were having all that fun... :brickwall:
Quote from: johntpr on November 12, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
Hey..I have dibs on Gene's left overs!
Bodywork beginning in next couple weeks on mine!
Great to hear your car is headed in the right direction - looking forward to seeing some pics when you get the chance.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
I take back everything i have ever said about you! :lol: :cheers:
Seriously Jim, if you want those seals I'll send 'em. We'll consider that a downpayment on the consulting fees I'll be racking up later. Or, maybe I can get you to tell me the secret password to get through Canadian Border Patrol without a body cavity search :o Actually, I didn't remember seeing a '70 Charger in your shop - but maybe I missed it with all the :drool5: I was doing over your other awesome rides.
Thanks Geno - I'll be your best friend!
The car wasn't at home when you were over. Here are a couple pics... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430)
BTW - The secret password is Labbatts Blue! Alternate password - Extra Large Double-Double Timmy's
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 13, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on November 13, 2009, 09:00:07 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:22:11 PM
Were you guys making deals while everyone was in 'Dega? :smilielol:
Hey, we had to do SOMETHING to entertain ourselves while you guys were having all that fun... :brickwall:
Quote from: johntpr on November 12, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
Hey..I have dibs on Gene's left overs!
Bodywork beginning in next couple weeks on mine!
Great to hear your car is headed in the right direction - looking forward to seeing some pics when you get the chance.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 12, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
I take back everything i have ever said about you! :lol: :cheers:
Seriously Jim, if you want those seals I'll send 'em. We'll consider that a downpayment on the consulting fees I'll be racking up later. Or, maybe I can get you to tell me the secret password to get through Canadian Border Patrol without a body cavity search :o Actually, I didn't remember seeing a '70 Charger in your shop - but maybe I missed it with all the :drool5: I was doing over your other awesome rides.
Thanks Geno - I'll be your best friend!
The car wasn't at home when you were over. Here are a couple pics... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430)
BTW - The secret password is Labbatts Blue! Alternate password - Extra Large Double-Double Timmy's
charger bastard :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
I finally flip the Daytona Bastard name to Troy and now I have a new one to schlep to someone else. Does the work ever let up? :lol:
well with all the mopars you have maybe you should just be the canadian MB
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 13, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Thanks Geno - I'll be your best friend!
The car wasn't at home when you were over. Here are a couple pics... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg588430.html#msg588430)
BTW - The secret password is Labbatts Blue! Alternate password - Extra Large Double-Double Timmy's
D'OH! I remember seeing the picture of your FY1 Mr. Norm's car and forgot all about it. GREAT ride!
Gotcha covered on the seals - may take me a little while to research what the best way to send parts would be. Seem to remember that USPS is easier/cheaper than UPS, but it's been a while. Also - shouldda figured mentioning something about Tim Horton's would have made Helga go easier on me.
Speaking of parts which need to be sent out, a month or so back (might have been as far back as Monster Mopar) someone asked me about a pair of 1095 bulbs which I said I had. Those go on the inner-most taillight sockets on a '69/'70 Charger. For the life of me, I can't remember who it was. :icon_smile_blackeye: Within the past two weeks I found a pair of extra 1095s, but can't do anything with them since I have CRS disease pretty bad. Whomever it is that I spoke to about those, remind me and I'll stick to the same deal I made at the time.
Quote from: hemigeno on October 06, 2009, 11:14:03 AM
I took these first two pictures to show a pretty noticeable dent that Creative had somehow managed to put in the original dutchman panel. Since the glass had never been out of this car, it's hard to imagine how a dent of that magnitude could have been put there by anyone other than a Creative employee. Wonder if someone stood up there for some reason? :scratchchin:
The last two are just some perspective shots of the car.
Gene,
Just a guess,But , I bet the guy who was working on it a C.I. sat there while he installed the rear window trim clips. Its an a$$ print......CSI can likely figure out which employee did it!
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on November 23, 2009, 05:11:28 PM
Gene,
Just a guess,But , I bet the guy who was working on it a C.I. sat there while he installed the rear window trim clips. Its an a$$ print......CSI can likely figure out which employee did it!
:scratchchin: Wonder if they have a database for such prints :lol:
Makes sense though!
On another topic, I got the results of the second engine dyno pulls last week.
Peak HP:
440 @ 5000rpm
Peak TQ:
534 @ 3400rpm
Not bad for a
totally-stock appearing engine if you ask me...
The first trip to the dyno shop ended with the discovery that some hydraulic lifter plungers were sticking inside the bore of the lifter body itself. Here's a write-up on that problem:
Major problems with Comp Cams hydraulic roller lifters (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,61280.0.html)
For more particulars about the engine build, here's the thread where I'm posting that info:
Bone stock (appearing) 1969 440 - with dyno results (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,64073.0.html)
Davtona and I had to reschedule our visit to Wisconsin/Michigan until this weekend, so there will be another update coming soon.
Yet another visit has been made, and the car is making some progress towards completion. Since the engine has been dialed in, it was finally ready for paint. Vance used Imron paint, which he flattens to the right sheen although that is hard to capture in a picture. Imron apparently does not discolor when heated like regular/enamel paint does, which should keep the engine a little nicer for a little longer - especially at the intake manifold crossover which was only partially blocked off.
Anyway, the next several pictures show the engine assembly in the beginning stages of being detailed. I have on my list of questions a note to confirm that Vance will be masking off and painting the base of the spark plugs, since I believe they were installed (and covered with a boot of sorts) when the engine was painted... correct me if I'm wrong here, Jim...
In the second and fourth pictures, you can see some bare areas on the cylinder heads. That is where the lifting brackets were attached to the engine. I found an original set of these brackets, which from what I've been told were normally removed and re-used, so Vance installed them on the engine prior to painting.
The third picture shows the engine ground strap which was installed prior to painting as well. Jim B. has a great detail on one of his cars where this strap was laid across the valve cover when DocTona's engine was painted (which left a few bare spots). There's no hard-and-fast rule about how the grounds were positioned when painted, and Vance apparently left this one hang off the back as you see in the pic.
Some more engine pictures here...
The first picture shows the fuel pump and fuel filter/separator. One of the remaining tasks is to paint up (as if it were originally installed and with the same paint) a more modern fuel pump that doesn't have a 40 year old rubber diaphragm in it. That is one major downside to scrounging around for NOS & date-coded parts... anything that doesn't age well is much more prone to failure. I was hoping to have a good pump already painted up, so that it could be changed out without losing the proper "look"
The second pic shows the assembly line style oil filter. I had bought another spare filter with the same olive drab paint color and the sand texture finish, but it has the Dodge triangle emblem instead of the Mopar curved "M". I'm wondering if it wasn't perhaps a truck filter. Anyway, I'm still planning to ask Vance to paint up a few extra filters for the shelf, so that an oil filter change won't change the "look" either.
The third pic was one of my attempts to capture the engine assembly date information which is pretty hard to read once the paint is applied. The HP stamp is quite visible, but the rest is much harder to read. I think I'll take some grease and smear across the lettering to make it more legible, but that's another task for another day.
More engine / eye candy pictures... Still a fair amount of detailing and a few more accessories to mount, but it's getting there.
B-E-A-Utiful! Thanks for sharing. Yup, we're still here soaking it all up. Love it!!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :icon_smile_big:
One of the things on my "To-Do" list this time up was to make tracings of the wing upright holes for Dane (DaytonaGuy). He had a particular reason for asking about the hole layout/spacing, and I was glad to help out. If anyone wonders, the holes for the wing uprights are fairly well oversized to allow the wing bases to be positioned flat without putting the horizontal stabilizer attachment bolt in a bind. Still, the holes have to be located somewhat close and this will help him out.
Quote from: mikepmcs on December 03, 2009, 06:43:42 PM
B-E-A-Utiful! Thanks for sharing. Yup, we're still here soaking it all up. Love it!!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :icon_smile_big:
Thanks, Mike - I'm getting a little anxious as things get to this point in the proceedings. Well, waiting 3 years will make a guy anxious too, but that's another story.
:cheers:
motor looks great !! yep spyed the green textured assembly line filter :coolgleamA: think i heard they are going be be repoped , but not sure , last NOS one i saw was over a $1000 on ebay :icon_smile_blackeye:
great pictures keep them coming :popcrn: :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
I took some pictures of the doors, after they had been taped off and painted up. The door weatherstripping has been applied, the window regulators and door latch mechanisms installed, but the glass and window fuzzies haven't yet made their way in. One of the things that happened last weekend was that I dropped another set of original glass off which was removed from a different Daytona (everything except the windshield). That'll give us two originals of each piece of glass to choose from, so Vance can pick the best one to polish up and reinstall. As a nuclear option we may have to install reproductions in the wings/doors/quarters, but I'm really hoping we can re-use one of the two Daytona back glass pieces - even if they have to do a whole lot of polishing.
Quote from: tan top on December 03, 2009, 06:59:39 PM
motor looks great !! yep spyed the green textured assembly line filter :coolgleamA: think i heard they are going be be repoped , but not sure , last NOS one i saw was over a $1000 on ebay :icon_smile_blackeye:
great pictures keep them coming :popcrn: :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
Thanks, tt - and thankfully, I didn't get caught up in the frenzy over those oil filters a few years ago. One actually sold for $1500 :o I came across them here and there for a whole lot less, but Vance has me topped... he had an entire case of them at one time, and said something about they cost him around $9 each. :faint:
Some picturs of the headliner, which was installed and left hanging to allow some of the wrinkles from being folded to relax. This is one of the relatively-new Legendary Mopar headliners with the "correct" pattern. I had been cringing at the thought of putting what they used to sell as a reproduction in the car, as it was a GM pattern. Only within the last year or so they started producing the original Mopar style, which to my semi-trained eye looked to be a great match. Vance was happy anyway.
Oh, and the guy in that second shot is Davtona (the previous owner of this Daytona), who was kind enough to travel along and keep me awake -- not to mention helping to navigate through downtown Chicago at near midnight. :cheers:
A few shots of the driver's side door and its "upper door frame" paint spray pattern.
The last picture I took as a reminder... how they'll fix this, I dunno, but all that smeared-on seam sealer in the passenger's compartment should be that black tar stuff. If some of you guys have noticed this in previous pictures but not mentioned it, I haven't overlooked it. For whatever reason it jumped out at me this month and I took a picture to serve as a reminder.
I took several pictures inside the nosecone this time, as a few times I've looked for a recent picture above the side reflectors and didn't find one. Plus, it shows a little bit of the newly-installed NOS rubber air seals. More on those in a moment.
Here are some more shots, including the new rubber air seals. Even if no one else in the world cares, I'm happy that these are in place rather than the reproductions - as nice and as accurate as those are. The last pic shows how one of the new pieces cracked when installed, although there's a fix in the works for it. While getting the glass from that other Daytona the day before, they asked if I had any use for a few leftover parts... including a couple of the rubber air seals. HeckYAH I have a use for that! Anyway, with the pattern we made of this part prior to its installation, we can cut a new seal out of the old/used original seal material in this exact shape. Hopefully Vance can find a way to make the material a little more flexible (warm/heat it up a little, perhaps?) to keep it from cracking. That particular piece has to bend quite a bit for as stiff a material as it is. It'll be an easy swap-out until the engine/radiator are installed, so the timing in getting those "leftover" parts couldn't have been better.
Another shot of the cracked seal piece, as well as a couple of engine bay shots (the master cylinder cover isn't plated yet, in case you wondered). Just a few more things added here since last time, and it's nearly ready for the engine.
The last pic is of the vacuum cannister installed and plumbed.
I took some pictures of the rear valance corner, and how the rework has come along. In the corner of the rear bumper recess, you can see a big glob of sealer shoved in the corner. That's supposed to be there... I guess Chrysler didn't want any water standing in that little corner and causing a rust problem. You can also see how the vertical seam between the valance and the corner has been left open, and there's a reason why that was supposed to be the case. In the last picture, you can see the "back side" of this same joint. According to the Engineering graphics/drawings, there is supposed to be a strip of caulk applied to the inner side of that same seam, to seal the joint from anything thrown against it by the rear tires (hasn't been added yet). The several pieces of metal joined together at the bottom of that same seam is supposed to be covered with a big wad of sealer or dum-dum for the same reason (again, hasn't been added yet). In other words, they were trying to seal that particular joint up from the inner side, and they intentionally left the outer side of the seam open so that it could drain/dry to avoid rust issues.
A few more passenger compartment shots showing the progress.
I was surprised to see in the last shot that when Vance re-did the paintwork (I'll hit more on this in a bit), they didn't mask off the Daytona rear glass moulding clips. It would probably have been hard to mask off the clips without potentially having a masking line visible even with the moulding installed, and the clips are essentially a one-shot deal. Those things are so prone to leaking that any disturbance once they're installed renders them worthless (unless you want to install more/different sealer on the screwtip). I'm thinking Vance is just planning to install different clips, as they're pretty readily available.
It's officially a Charger again!!! :lol:
I did try and take a few photos of the new-and-improved orange peel paintwork. It's not all that much different than before, but it does look a little more uniform where it needs to be. I wanted to ask Vance how much he plans to "screw up" the paint around the window plug work, to mimic how Creative Industries had to blend in the plug paint with Hamtramck's handiwork on the roof. I've seen this effect on original cars, but only recently heard a guy refer to this as the "Daytona Halo" :lol:
Last pics for this batch...
I shot one of the leading edge of the hood, where some paint has come off. That's not a mistake, as Creative painted the cars and usually slammed the hoods closed before the paint was dry. Vance did the same, and that's what paint came off onto the hood/nosecone seal. Speaking of which...
The last rivet was installed at the end of the hood seal, completing its installation as shown in the second pic. I took this shot to mimic one I had taken pre-restoration from pretty much the same angle... which is shown in the last pic.
awesome :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
Exceptional just taking it all in :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 03, 2009, 07:12:47 PM
Quote from: tan top on December 03, 2009, 06:59:39 PM
motor looks great !! yep spyed the green textured assembly line filter :coolgleamA: think i heard they are going be be repoped , but not sure , last NOS one i saw was over a $1000 on ebay :icon_smile_blackeye:
great pictures keep them coming :popcrn: :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
Thanks, tt - and thankfully, I didn't get caught up in the frenzy over those oil filters a few years ago. One actually sold for $1500 :o I came across them here and there for a whole lot less, but Vance has me topped... he had an entire case of them at one time, and said something about they cost him around $9 each. :faint:
yikes $1500 damn !! :icon_smile_blackeye:
more awesome pictures Geno :drool5: got me looking at my headliner now ! never checked it against the original when i fitted it :scratchchin: so the old repop liner was incorect :scratchchin: , must have a lookie at mine :scope:
keep the picture coming , love looking at this kind of stuff :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 03, 2009, 07:51:40 PM
I took some pictures of the rear valance corner, and how the rework has come along. In the corner of the rear bumper recess, you can see a big glob of sealer shoved in the corner. That's supposed to be there... I guess Chrysler didn't want any water standing in that little corner and causing a rust problem. You can also see how the vertical seam between the valance and the corner has been left open, and there's a reason why that was supposed to be the case. In the last picture, you can see the "back side" of this same joint. According to the Engineering graphics/drawings, there is supposed to be a strip of caulk applied to the inner side of that same seam, to seal the joint from anything thrown against it by the rear tires (hasn't been added yet). The several pieces of metal joined together at the bottom of that same seam is supposed to be covered with a big wad of sealer or dum-dum for the same reason (again, hasn't been added yet). In other words, they were trying to seal that particular joint up from the inner side, and they intentionally left the outer side of the seam open so that it could drain/dry to avoid rust issues.
Bravo !!!! Great job and yeap, I remember the big glob of sealer on the underside-rear on both my '68 Hemi and '70 v-code...... :2thumbs:
Troy
Quote from: hemigeno on December 03, 2009, 07:51:40 PM
I took some pictures of the rear valance corner, and how the rework has come along. In the corner of the rear bumper recess, you can see a big glob of sealer shoved in the corner. That's supposed to be there... I guess Chrysler didn't want any water standing in that little corner and causing a rust problem. You can also see how the vertical seam between the valance and the corner has been left open, and there's a reason why that was supposed to be the case. In the last picture, you can see the "back side" of this same joint. According to the Engineering graphics/drawings, there is supposed to be a strip of caulk applied to the inner side of that same seam, to seal the joint from anything thrown against it by the rear tires (hasn't been added yet). The several pieces of metal joined together at the bottom of that same seam is supposed to be covered with a big wad of sealer or dum-dum for the same reason (again, hasn't been added yet). In other words, they were trying to seal that particular joint up from the inner side, and they intentionally left the outer side of the seam open so that it could drain/dry to avoid rust issues.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've always been a little confounded on how this was "supposed" to be. As we all know, this is a commonly re-worked area and I've never seen a clear explanation on this. Car looks great. Makes me want to bring my 500 to Vance but...
Mike
Awesome details, car is comming along really well, thanks for sharing.
Hey Geno, regarding the engine shots....by the placement of a pipe plug in the intake where the vacuum tree would go, I'm assuming the tree was left natural?
Also the pulleys....were they always painted gloss black or a 30 degree finish?
Chris
The vacuum tree was put in after the engine got painted. The tree should be silver cad plated.
Most pulley's are semi glossy but can differ. 12% is good but 20% would be ok as well. Sorry for answering for Geno but my Maple Leafs are behind to the Bruins so boredom is setting in. ;D
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on December 05, 2009, 07:02:12 PM
Hey Geno, regarding the engine shots....by the placement of a pipe plug in the intake where the vacuum tree would go, I'm assuming the tree was left natural?
Also the pulleys....were they always painted gloss black or a 30 degree finish?
Chris
Excellent thanks! I figured since Geno was doing everything "as it was" I knew it had to be correct... :thumbs:
Thanks, everyone! I need to update a few things in my explanations based on a Friday conversation with Vance that cleared up some questions I had. I'll try to do that this week when I have some more time.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 05, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
The vacuum tree was put in after the engine got painted. The tree should be silver cad plated.
Most pulley's are semi glossy but can differ. 12% is good but 20% would be ok as well. Sorry for answering for Geno but my Maple Leafs are behind to the Bruins so boredom is setting in. ;D
:smilielol:
Thanks, Jim - and you're correct as usual...
The vacuum tree was added after engine assembly & paint, since at the time that work was done it was not determined in which car -- or even which model -- the engine would be installed, or what that particular car's equipment package was (power brakes, Charger headlights, Air Grabber, cruise control, etc.). We actually had a more difficult time than you'd think finding a correct vacuum tree for this particular car since the correct 2658625 fitting with one 1/4" outlet was used on only a few cars/combos.
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on December 06, 2009, 06:49:43 AM
Excellent thanks! I figured since Geno was doing everything "as it was" I knew it had to be correct... :thumbs:
With a lot of help, I'm making an
attempt to do things correctly... Still learning a bunch about how these cars were put together, as well as why they're that way.
Some eye candy from today... Vance sent this cameraphone picture of what they accomplished this afternoon:
:drool5:
Crap....he needs a better phone :rotz:
Never seen a coral colored Daytona! ;)
Congratulations Gene. She looks nice sitting in there. :2thumbs: Its been a long time since that engine compartment was filled up with a motor. :cheers:
Congrats as well from me Geno, that picture (color tones aside) has been a long time coming!
That has to be pretty exciting!
Scott
Alright Geno !!!!!! :2thumbs:
EDIT: For all those that don't know, notice the front adjustable hood bumper is painted and the washer down under the hood pin has paint on it since the hood pin was taped off prior to paint......... I learned the later from Danny over the Talle' weekend and the front bumper from you Geno........... :2thumbs:
Niiiiice, congrats on the progress Geno. :2thumbs:
:drive:
WINGR/Steve
Thanks, everyone - I was pretty pumped when that picture showed up. Vance had put me on notice it was going to happen soon, but it's still great to see. This car has not moved an inch under its own power since the day in 1977 it caught fire and (partially) burned at the intersection of I-435 and Parvin Road in Kansas City, MO. Someday soon though...
Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on December 09, 2009, 07:28:20 PM
Crap....he needs a better phone :rotz:
Never seen a coral colored Daytona! ;)
:lol:
Quote from: Davtona on December 09, 2009, 07:34:17 PM
Congratulations Gene. She looks nice sitting in there. :2thumbs: Its been a long time since that engine compartment was filled up with a motor. :cheers:
Thanks Dave, you saw it for a long time without anything in that engine compartment, so it has to be as big a shock for you as anyone.
:cheers:
She will be making some noise soon Geno! For sure one of the best moments during the resto. :2thumbs:
Coming along very nicely .Seeing Vances phone underhood picture .And reading all the pages.From which it was once like this underhood (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/1980Genodaytonafirewall.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/Genodaytonafirewall.jpg)
Quote from: hemigeno on December 09, 2009, 11:35:25 PM
Thanks, everyone - I was pretty pumped when that picture showed up. Vance had put me on notice it was going to happen soon, but it's still great to see. This car has not moved an inch under its own power since the day in 1977 it caught fire and (partially) burned at the intersection of I-435 and Parvin Road in Kansas City, MO. Someday soon though...
in about 1984-85 6 month or so after I bought my 69 road runner, I was drive on I-435 north across the missouri river bridge and my tranny started going out . I made it a mile or so farther to parvin rd and parked it in the holiday Inn parking lot ( by worlds of fun) amusement park . Trans was completely burnt up and had to be rebuild .
Coming along REAL nice!! Before ya know it it will be all done and you will be bored out of your mind. Then what??
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
The thing is though, Geno spend endless time investigating everything about that car. When its done that will be a huge time void I would think.
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
More like "stressed out"...... too many people passing him trying to take a picture...... Take it from me, I know....... :yesnod:
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 10, 2009, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
More like "stressed out"...... too many people passing him trying to take a picture...... Take it from me, I know....... :yesnod:
yeah taking a picture with there camera phone while trying to drive and swerving at you too ! :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: moparstuart on December 10, 2009, 12:37:21 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 10, 2009, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
More like "stressed out"...... too many people passing him trying to take a picture...... Take it from me, I know....... :yesnod:
yeah taking a picture with there camera phone while trying to drive and swerving at you too ! :icon_smile_big:
:lol:
Driving a wing car will be a new experience for me, although I've been told that it's a constant lesson in defensive driving... you're driving for you AND the person/gawker in the next lanes...
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on December 10, 2009, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
The thing is though, Geno spend endless time investigating everything about that car. When its done that will be a huge time void I would think.
Oh, there is a ton of Daytona-related things on my "To Do" list which have been back-burnered for many years due to constant parts scrounging and researching for this project. The biggest one is finalizing the official Daytona Registry website that (our fearless leader) Troy has been helping me with for more years than I care to remember. It'll be both a huge relief AND a time void when the restoration project is done. I might even have time to squeeze in some more drives... well, after the new wears off and I'm not QUITE as scared to drive around town.
Quote from: moparstuart on December 10, 2009, 11:38:05 AM
in about 1984-85 6 month or so after I bought my 69 road runner, I was drive on I-435 north across the missouri river bridge and my tranny started going out . I made it a mile or so farther to parvin rd and parked it in the holiday Inn parking lot ( by worlds of fun) amusement park . Trans was completely burnt up and had to be rebuild .
Stuart, I figured you'd pick up on that geographic reference. Gerry Meade (the owner at the time) mentioned it was right by Worlds of Fun, and that it was stored behind a nearby service station after the Fire Department got done hosing it down.
Quote from: hemigeno on December 10, 2009, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on December 10, 2009, 11:38:05 AM
in about 1984-85 6 month or so after I bought my 69 road runner, I was drive on I-435 north across the missouri river bridge and my tranny started going out . I made it a mile or so farther to parvin rd and parked it in the holiday Inn parking lot ( by worlds of fun) amusement park . Trans was completely burnt up and had to be rebuild .
Stuart, I figured you'd pick up on that geographic reference. Gerry Meade (the owner at the time) mentioned it was right by Worlds of Fun, and that it was stored behind a nearby service station after the Fire Department got done hosing it down.
Thats only about 5 miles from where 3 aero cars where sitting in a salvage yard . ( if your following johns thread) pay attention it was I-435 & truman road .
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 10, 2009, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on December 10, 2009, 12:23:33 PM
I don't think i would be bored cruising that car.
More like "stressed out"...... too many people passing him trying to take a picture...... Take it from me, I know....... :yesnod:
Definitely makes it more exciting. to have idiots driving into you, trying to take a picture. A test of how good a driver you really are! Driving in a car that's rare, expensive, and your blood sweat & tears. Wouldn't have it any other way! The car is for driving not looking... :Twocents:
OK, trivia quiz question here:
Bonus points and a virtual :cheers: to the person who correctly names the guy in the white T-shirt who helped tune my engine while on the dyno...
A few hints: He's from Michigan and raced for a very successful drag race team in the early '70s
This guy?
http://www.prostockhemi.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=424
Yup, that's him... Dave Boertman
:cheers: to a different Dave B. (Benasutti, that is) :P
Among other credits, he was the 1971 NHRA Stock champion with a J/SA 1971 383-powered Dodge Charger. His wife also campaigned a 383-powered 9-passenger Dodge station wagon, and they once met in the 1971 Summernationals finals. He (quite wisely, I might add) redlighted... :lol:
Interesting writeup:
His wife also campaigned a 383-powered 9-passenger Dodge station wagon,
http://www.prostockhemi.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=441
Vance sent me some pictures on Monday which shows some serious progress on the re-assembly and detailing. There is still a LONG way to go, but it is starting to take shape. I've also received word that the big parts order from "The Jewelry Store" should be arriving the first part of next week, which will allow lots more progress on the suspension/interior/trunk.
I will post these pics in smaller batches, as it takes more time for me to absorb/explain some of the finer detailing points. These are also larger resolution than I normally try to post in this particular thread, mostly so some of you eagle-eyed guys can take a good look at what's done so far. I'll try and point out some things that I know have yet to be swapped out (still missing some correct components), but there's always a chance something has slipped through. Comments and questions are welcome, although I won't promise immediate answers to every question (may have to get the how/why explained to me before I can post an answer).
The first picture shows the front suspension and K-member. The Daytona K-member rubber seal hasn't been installed just yet, as there's just no reason to put that thing in place until much later. If anyone wonders, the sway bars and brackets are supposed to be painted black. Quite regularly, the paint flakes off of the sway bars leading more than one resto shop to incorrectly finish this to look bare (yep, I made that mistake years ago on my R/T).
The second picture is a look at the engine oil filter. This is the assembly-line version that has a rough texture, olive-green color and the embossed "M" at the end, and these were normally installed when the engine was painted. You can also get a little better look at the sway bar bracket too.
In the first picture, you can see that the fuel line plumbing to the fuel pump and vapor separator is taking shape. You can also see the motor mount and at least some of the attachment hardware for the mounts. Those rubber insulators/mounts are date coded, as (unfortunately) way too many of Chrysler's parts were. You can't see it in this picture, but the big bolt attaching the motor mount to the engine bracket has a "38" cast into its end. Frank Badalson sells a spot-on repro of this bolt (bought a pair), but Vance had a really nice set of unpitted originals that he replated and used.
In the second picture, you can get a good look at the lower control arms. That's genuine Cosmoline dip which Vance has applied. As long as it's given adequate time, this particular material dries real well and does not remain tacky. You can also see the discoloration (that's intentional) around the sway bar bracket where it was welded to the LCA. Oh, and Jim/maxwellwedge, don't have a coronary when you see the brake backing plates. Those are going to be replaced with an unpitted set with the correct black phosphate coating. You can also see the shock absorber with its blue ID paint daub signifying heavy-duty shocks. Off slightly in the background you can see the zerk fittings. Those are the genuine assembly-line article there, and the tip will be broken off later to duplicate how the factory did it. You can't just take a regular zerk and break its tip off (well, I guess you could but it wouldn't be the same), as these are different because the ball is actually located within the base part that remains after the tip is broken off.
Some suspension parts will have to be removed and reinstalled, as there are several components still going to be replaced... e.g. the steering box (for a fresh-cast aluminum finish which is hard to duplicate), one lower ball joint (for an assembly-line version), and the aforementioned unpitted backing plates. They went ahead and got things about as far along as they could without having to re-do a whole lot when the new parts arrive.
Looking really good Gene. I will call Desoto and Gage and cancel the Crash Cart! :lol: Yup black sway bar is correct - I actually saw a couple that looked like the black was brushed on! Just a couple though - most looked either dipped or sprayed. Not 100% sure if the oil filters were on when the engine got painted but it looks cool on the correct filter regardless. I know original spark plugs were in and painted with some kind of tape or tube to keep the ends free of the spraying. My Hemi-X has the original grease nipple "plugs" still installed. The FSM actually discusses these. The Vette guys have devised a technique to get aluminum castings looking "just cast". I'll try and pry the procedure out of them - It was on my "To-Do" list anyways. Zinc Phosphate is the right finish for those backing plates - so many get painted.
I am in the middle of a "Jewellery Store" order myself.....oranges and/or a lump of coal in the Christmas stockings!!
Looking Good!!!
The first picture shows a closeup (maybe a little too close! :P ) of the tie rod end and aforementioned zerk fitting. Again, these don't have the ball/spring in the tip - that's all in the base which remains after the tip is broken off. I've heard guys discuss why the factory did this, about how they really didn't want to make it easy to service these items -- which would create more work for the service department. At least Chrysler didn't follow the lead of some manufacturers and create these parts without ANY way for grease/servicing.
The second pic shows a shot from underneath looking up at the firewall and underneath side of the master cylinder. Note the small red and blue daubs on the underside of the master cylinder, the gold anodizing on the clutch Z-bracket, brass finish on the brake distribution block, new brake system switch on the dist. block, etc. Lots of little things to chew on in that picture - for me, anyway.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 16, 2009, 07:31:02 PM
Looking really good Gene. I will call Desoto and Gage and cancel the Crash Cart! :lol: Yup black sway bar is correct - I actually saw a couple that looked like the black was brushed on! Just a couple though - most looked either dipped or sprayed. Not 100% sure if the oil filters were on when the engine got painted but it looks cool on the correct filter regardless. I know original spark plugs were in and painted with some kind of tape or tube to keep the ends free of the spraying. My Hemi-X has the original grease nipple "plugs" still installed. The FSM actually discusses these. The Vette guys have devised a technique to get aluminum castings looking "just cast". I'll try and pry the procedure out of them - It was on my "To-Do" list anyways. Zinc Phosphate is the right finish for those backing plates - so many get painted.
I am in the middle of a "Jewellery Store" order myself.....oranges and/or a lump of coal in the Christmas stockings!!
Looking Good!!!
OOhhh - love the gratuitous "Emergency!" reference... one of my fav's...
I think you and I even discussed the oil filter paint topic a while back, and I know that others have gone both ways on the topic. I have a couple extras of that same filter, so it's easy enough to change out depending on my audience... :lol:
:cheers:
I'll have to finish up posting the pics another time, but there are more good ones yet to post.
Very nice Gene. Looking good. :2thumbs: Vance has made alot of progress on it since Thanksgiving. :yesnod:
Geno...... I'm simply in awe.......... That's all I can say,,,, other than :notworthy:
If it were me I would either leave the fluid out of it and display it upside down or travel with a lift to display the underside of it.It is in competion with the orange car at Tim Welborns.Nice work Gene and Co.
Quote from: jonw29 on December 17, 2009, 02:57:40 PM
If it were me I would either leave the fluid out of it and display it upside down
Now there's an idea I hadn't thought of before... :scratchchin:
:lol:
Thanks again, guys! I need to get busy here later today and post some more of the pics. There are a lot more good ones yet to go, I just ran out of steam last night.
Geno,
That stud plate for the clutch pedal , Thats supposed to be body color? I always thought those were bare.
Here I go again! ;)
I though that a few years ago as well because all of my E-bodies were bare/zinc phos. I didn't have any 4-speed 69 B-bodies at the time until I found my 13000 mile X. Thats when I noticed it. They were on when the car was painted - I guess to make it easier (on the line) to install the clutch pedal stuff later.
Thanks for the reply Jim, and you have the stable of cars to get a definitive answer.
I didn't mention it above (thought about editing the reply, but that'd get missed by most), but a neat detail on the firewall shot to me is that all of the stamped flanges and other protrusions have a gray primer shadow showing on the underneath side, where the painter didn't get complete coverage from underneath. You can also see incomplete coverage on the radiator yoke bottom flange in some earlier pictures.
In contrast, the front framerails have been mostly painted R4 on the underneath side. I had inquired of Vance on this subject, and he said that he's seen cars with lots of paint on the framerail bottoms, and cars with nothing but primer and just a little overspray. The point being, is that there is no exact pattern that these cars ALWAYS followed. Their only consistent trait was inconsistency. :brickwall:
In the first pic, you can see the passenger's side exhaust manifold with the heat riser flapper removed. All of the external hardware is still in place and the whole thing rotates, but there are no unnecessary obstructions in the exhaust flow. Vance has blocked off the exhaust crossover anyway, so the choke wouldn't really be functional even if the flapper was still there. You can also see a little primer peeking through on the framerail as was mentioned before. There are also the little droplets of paint on the torsion bars, although the droplets aren't always located towards the bottomside of the installed torsion bar... that's just a function of which way the line worker happened to install that particular bar. The brake hose for that side is also visible, as are some of the other suspension/steering linkage components.
The second pic shows that needle-in-a-haystack driveshaft. It's been coated with Cosmoline, as many bare metal items were. The floorpans also show the amount of overspray applied, and if you look close you can see some of the primer drips that were intentionally created. Note the discoloration near the end(s) of the driveshaft tube, where the heat from the welding is still evident. The exhaust hangers in place will be replaced with a set from Terry McCann that Jim/maxwellwedge helped find at Carlisle this year. We also need to replace the U-joint retaining straps with a different set. The ones I had or had found were dated about 10 months before the car was built... not an impossible stretch, but normally the dates would have been closer to the SPD.
The first picture is a closeup of the assembly-line style of U-joint. This has the retaining strap that holds the end caps in place until the retaining straps can be installed. I had already scavenged one of this style U-joint from a NOS 3/4 ton pickup truck driveshaft, but the driveshaft Vance provided already had this style just as it should. You can also see the 8/30/68 and "H" stampings on the retaining strap as well. Guess that makes it about 9-1/2 months prior to the build date which should still work, but I'm still hoping to find a set with a date a little closer. You can also see the bare metal pinion snubber plate which has been given a cosmoline wipedown.
In the second pic, you can see more of the clutch linkage and surrounding area. The Z-bracket you see is in pretty decent shape for being an original piece, but those things are date coded too... Since they're plated and not painted, it's hard to do anything to them - which makes the task of finding a correct dated AND unpitted piece quite daunting. That is one of the parts I'm hoping to have delivered next week.
That first picture shows another perspective of the passenger's side front suspension assembly. The upper control arm was left in bare steel, and this too has been wiped with cosmoline to keep it from immediately starting to show surface rusting. From the camera flash, you can also see that the sway bar is not pitted up. Finding a new one of these is about the only way to solve a pitted sway bar problem, as any filler a person tried to use to smooth out the sway bar would pop right off the first time the suspension caused that bar to flex. My original was pretty pitted up, and had a broken insulator bracket - which probably happened while chaining the car down for towing at some point. A detail to note about the splotch of white paint on the K-frame is that this was done so sloppily with a brush that little flecks of white paint are all around the area.
In the second pic, you can see the freshly-detailed transmission. Vance had initially painted the transmission case (to keep it looking fresh & clean indefinitely) and had it looking great, but being the originality freak and pest that I am, I sortof insisted that we clean the case up and leave it bare. They had already sandblasted the case to clean up the crud and rust pitting from the case prior to painting, and Vance was skeptical that the finish would look "fresh cast" after they removed the paint. Normally, a cast piece that is sandblasted ends up looking too light colored when compared to a clean unpainted/untouched original casting. He solved the problem with a mixture of gun bluing and "something else" to darken the casing to just the right look. It was more work for Vance and his guys to humor me, but I am quite pleased with the result. You can see the stenciled "605" number, which corresponds to the broadcast sheet code for a 1969 18-spline A-833 transmission used on 440/426's. The green paint splotch wasn't too neatly applied either, was it? The ID pad shows the VIN from my car, and this is the original transmission. Note: from the number stamped in the lower righthand corner of the pad, this was the first transmission assembled that day, which was actually Sunday, May 18, 1969 (2851 on the 10,000 day calendar).
These next three pictures show some of the detailing work done to the rear leaf springs and shackle area. Actually, some of this may need to get redone, as I am actively looking for an unpitted (or much less pitted anyway) pair of original leaf springs to use. Vance did the best he could with what parts were on the car, but this is another situation like the sway bar... you just can't fix these things once they get pitted - even though these are painted parts. The color splotches on the spring ends are ID marks, observed on original cars and confirmed with one of the Engineering documents someone was kind enough to provide us.
In the first picture, you can also see the gas tank seam with it's sealer-smeared side (not done by us - already on this vintage tank) as well as the rear framerail tiedown and exhaust tip hanger.
These next three pictures are more/different vantage shots taken of the gas tank, support straps and fuel lines. You can see how the part number was written on the tank in several locations (I suppose this has been observed on other cars' original tanks, as the majic marker wasn't on the tank before). The sticker on the side in the first picture, however, was on the tank when I bought it.
The second picture shows the gas tank J-studs, nuts, and the fuel sending unit. On the sending unit, note the recessed insulator for the dash gauge wire... later-made and reproduction style sending units have this piece flush with the rest of the sending unit cover plate. Again, all that seam sealer gunk was already on the tank. That second picture also shows just the edge of the felt pad inserted between the trunk floor and the top of the gas tank. Finding an original of these pads that is still in decent shape is nearly impossible, however Dixie Restorations sells what Vance (and me too, in my less-learned opinion) thinks is a spot-on reproduction. It beats using tar paper, that's for sure...
The last picture shows the unique galvanizing look to original-style gas tank strap - which partially hides another handwritten part number.
These next two pictures (last ones I have time for tonight) show more details of the transmission - including the shift linkage and shifter. The shifter mechanism was an assembly-line piece, as evidenced by the red sticker still showing underneath the upper attachment bolt. All of the shifter rods on a '69 4-speed are bare steel - which makes finding an unpitted set of these nearly impossible. 1970 and later rods were at least phosphate coated, which helped preserve more of those (not sure what they did with '68 and previous years, to be honest). You can also see the tab in place, ready to receive the reverse light wire. The speedo gear & housing has not yet been installed, but is around somewhere.
One unintended benefit from my semi-obsessive insistence on keeping the tranny case bare metal was that when Vance reassembled the transmission, he discovered that the 2nd gear shifter fork was not aligned properly and actually made very slight contact with the adjacent reverse gear. They welded material on one side of the fork and removed material from the opposite side to change it's alignment position - and that cured the problem. I think I've explained that the way it was described to me... :P
The last picture (and last one for tonight too) shows the rear tranny crossmember and bottomside of the transmission. Note the red-colored nut on the rear transmission mount/isolator. You can also get a better look at the steering gearbox, which is a little too bright for a "fresh cast" aluminum look. Until Jim/maxwellwedge can torture the secret aluminum refinish process out of some unsuspecting Corvette guy, that is the normal result/look when an original casting is cleaned up. In the meantime, a new casting is on its way to replace this part (which is one reason the steering column is not installed). Also in this picture, you can see a slight color variation between the transmission tailshaft (slightly lighter) and main transmission body (slightly darker) castings. That was pretty normal, and you would expect to see that on bare castings. The side cover plate was usually different as well.
Gene, are you planning any trips up to Michigan to go check on the car in January? If so let me know I want to get some more pictures of the car before its completed. Might even drag a video camera up there this time.
Quote from: 69_500 on December 17, 2009, 08:14:06 PM
Gene, are you planning any trips up to Michigan to go check on the car in January? If so let me know I want to get some more pictures of the car before its completed. Might even drag a video camera up there this time.
Danny, I had tentative plans to go up between Christmas and New Year's, but that isn't as critical with Vance having sent me this latest batch of pictures. If you can't make it until January, which part of the month were you thinking? Everything is subject to halfway-decent travelling weather, of course...
Gene,
the red nut on the trans crossmember what does it look like ?
It's hard to tell from the picture , But it looks a lot like the red flange nut for the E-body prop valve mounting
(http://amhightechauto.com/images/parts/B12895.JPG)
Bill, I haven't taken a close look at that one myself yet - but I'll try to get a closeup of it next time I'm there. From what I could see, I first thought it was the same as the nut used on the wiper pivot studs. I tried cropping the large-size picture file down to just the nut you asked about, and then did the same for the picture I have for the wiper pivot studs. To me they look similar (size might be different), but the crossmember nut's washer looks to be silver rather than red. Again, I can't say for sure what it is, I'm just guessing right now.
Thanks Gene,
I was thinking it was a free spinning captive washer nut, and the red threw me off .
I know about the wiper pivot nuts in red .
sometimes the master cylinder to firewall mounting Kepps lock nuts were red zinc as well in addition to some in yellow zinc di-chromate
Thanks again
Geno... :2thumbs: Love the drip marks of primer on the floorpans..........
:drool5: wow Geno , that's looking awesome ! :drool5: the attention how the cars were originally built & duplicating Creatives handywork :o !!!
thanks for sharing the pictures ! keep them coming :popcrn:
dang that thing is too nice good to drive with all that detail :scratchchin:
looking forward to seeing the next batch of pictures & progress :yesnod: :popcrn:
Thanks guys, and there's still a LOT of detailing work yet to be done. It's getting there though.
OK, on with the last batch of pictures for now...
In this first one, you can see engine paint on the sparkplug bases, as Jim/maxwellwedge mentioned. Apparently these were in when the engine was painted, with the ceramic part covered by a sleeve or other masking method to keep them sans paint. You can also see the unpainted dipstic tube bolted in place, as well as incomplete paint coverage in the freeze plug area and a few other locations visible from this vantage point. Note that there is no exhaust manifold gasket between the head and manifold - just like it was done originally, although I would recommend that the manifold face be refaced and trued up to keep some semblance of a seal intact. Why they did that, I dunno... guess that reduced the warranty claims for gasket replacement, eh? "I'm sorry Mr. Jones, your exhaust gasket is NOT leaking - but we'll be happy to install one for you, if you'll only sign here." ;)
The second picture shows the area ready to receive the starter (which should arrive soon). You can see the stud and bolt arrangement, as well as the starter's shim "gasket" already installed.
The first picture shows a look at the backside of the passenger's side front spring mount. Not a whole lot to see, apart from just noting the attachment hardware & finish of the hardware.
The second pic primarily shows the correct 070 viscous fan clutch, with what I remember to be an April '69 date inkstamped on the front (D=April, that much I do remember), but it's admittedly a little hard to read in that pic.
In the last picture, you can see the new rubber seal Vance "created" from another original Daytona air seal. This new piece replaced the NOS piece I showed earlier in this thread which had broken during installation. That original rubber is extremely stiff whether NOS or old/original, so Vance made things easier on himself by modifying the dimensions of the seal just enough to smooth the radius where it has to bend. I was able to find an extra original lower fender splash shield (the largest rubber pieces except for the K-frame seal) from another Daytona restoration that didn't re-use their seals, and Vance marked the template out on this splash shield - with the longer dimension where he wanted it - and just cut out a "new" seal. Fits great, and I still have all-original seal material. Also, in this last pic you can see some of the hardware used to attach the lower valance. The U-clip they used wasn't held to anything, and it's not really possible to hold it in place during tightening, so quite often you'll see those circular scratch marks where the clip spun around as the bolt is being installed/tightened.
The first pic shows the master cylinder's fresh zinc/gold finish, the blue and red (respectively) tint to the brake line flange nuts, the throttle cable attachment, and a few other details. I am curious about the dipstick handle, as I thought those were dipped in engine paint. Could be wrong though... I am also going to ask about the black tip on the shock absorber stud - I know the whole body of the shocks were painted black, but it almost looks like just the tip is black above the nut. Could be that installing the bushing/washer/nut merely removed the black paint, but it's something I want to ask about.
This second picture shows a neat detail. Spark plug wires were installed after the engine was painted, but quite often the paint was not all the way cured out. When the plug wires were pushed into and pulled through the retainers, there would usually be some amount of orange paint that would rub off onto the wires. That's what you see here.
These last two pictures (last ones from the batch Vance sent me, anyway) show some additional engine details, including more engine paint on the spark plug wires in the first frame. You can also see more of the suspension adjustment cam/bolt, fuel pump and vapor separator & fuel lines.
The second pic shows the right side of the engine, although I was under the impression that the PCV valves were painted with the rest of the engine. Need to check on that. There is more paint evidence on the wire going to #8 cylinder too...
Well, that's all the fresh meat Vance sent me. There will be more detailing, parts replaced/installed, etc. etc., so this is very much a work in progress. I'm learning a ton of things going through this process, so don't think for a second that all this stuff is old-hat for me (some is, but a lot isn't).
:cheers:
I'm diggin' it Geno! The dipstick handle should be dipped in black (69's - not sure of earlier years) as you have it. In 70 it was orange (HP) but not engine orange. Like the orange air cleaner lids, the dipsticks came from the vendor already painted - in 70 the color orange is closer to the air cleaner lid color rather than the engine color. I think Fram supplied both those parts.
Yes - PCV valves were all painted on the engine - except Hemi.
Here is an original paint cover off of Doc.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 07:29:25 PM
I'm diggin' it Geno! The dipstick handle should be dipped in black (69's - not sure of earlier years) as you have it. In 70 it was orange (HP) but not engine orange. Like the orange air cleaner lids, the dipsticks came from the vendor already painted - in 70 the color orange is closer to the air cleaner lid color rather than the engine color. I think Fram supplied both those parts.
OOHH!!! Guess you have something to bug John Grinwald about sometime, eh?
I'm not doubting you for a second, but I had actually saved the magazine article below years ago, and someone re-posted it on the old Moparts A12 board in the big discussion the've had about dipstick tubes being painted or unpainted. Vance doesn't make many mistakes, so I figured he had a reason for painting that sucker black. That's the way it'll stay...
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking on the PCV. Could be that the one I had on the shelf was incorrect and he didn't want to paint/ruin it, but no matter. That's an easy fix.
Should there be that much paint on the bottom of the engine yet / opposed to light overspray in the core plugs
Quote from: hemigeno on December 18, 2009, 07:41:54 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 07:29:25 PM
I'm diggin' it Geno! The dipstick handle should be dipped in black (69's - not sure of earlier years) as you have it. In 70 it was orange (HP) but not engine orange. Like the orange air cleaner lids, the dipsticks came from the vendor already painted - in 70 the color orange is closer to the air cleaner lid color rather than the engine color. I think Fram supplied both those parts.
OOHH!!! Guess you have something to bug John Grinwald about sometime, eh?
I'm not doubting you for a second, but I had actually saved the magazine article below years ago, and someone re-posted it on the old Moparts A12 board in the big discussion the've had about dipstick tubes being painted or unpainted. Vance doesn't make many mistakes, so I figured he had a reason for painting that sucker black. That's the way it'll stay...
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking on the PCV. Could be that the one I had on the shelf was incorrect and he didn't want to paint/ruin it, but no matter. That's an easy fix.
That was a good article but had many mistakes - I leave the arguing up to FB - He busts a camera every year, for the past 30+ years taking pics of original stuff! :smilielol:
Quote from: gtx6970 on December 18, 2009, 07:47:52 PM
Should there be that much paint on the bottom of the engine yet / opposed to light overspray in the core plugs
Can't answer that, to be honest, but I will ask.
Quote from: gtx6970 on December 18, 2009, 07:47:52 PM
Should there be that much paint on the bottom of the engine yet / opposed to light overspray in the core plugs
Here is one of my survivor Bee's. They didn't go to a lot of trouble to get underneath! Some got better, some got worse. Do you have the unobtainium oil pan plug gasket?
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 08:04:25 PM
Quote from: gtx6970 on December 18, 2009, 07:47:52 PM
Should there be that much paint on the bottom of the engine yet / opposed to light overspray in the core plugs
Here is one of my survivor Bee's. They didn't go to a lot of trouble to get underneath!
:faint:
Thanks for the pic - how was DocTona's pan? Don't remember if I have a pic of it or not. :popcrn:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 18, 2009, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 08:04:25 PM
Quote from: gtx6970 on December 18, 2009, 07:47:52 PM
Should there be that much paint on the bottom of the engine yet / opposed to light overspray in the core plugs
Here is one of my survivor Bee's. They didn't go to a lot of trouble to get underneath!
:faint:
Thanks for the pic - how was DocTona's pan? Don't remember if I have a pic of it or not. :popcrn:
It had a lot better coverage than the Bee but like I said, some are better, some are worse. Did you notice the coverage on the side was so thin you can actually see the painted bore/piston size letters on the block? I have painted a couple like that. You really need a mint oil pan to get away with the drippy, non-coverage on the bottom!
Man,,, this is awesome.. Makes me want to tear into my Daytona............... Ah, on second thought............. Maybe when I retire...... :)
I'm just asking . but it would make sense that if you have the top area of the core plugs are barely covered as if the painter didn't get down too low to paint said engine, then wouldn't the very bottom of the oil pan and clutch cover be lightly covered as well
I'll have the aluminum oil drain plug gaskets after the 1st of the year
Gene, I'm game pretty much from the second weekend in january to the end of the month. Car is looking great by the way. Makes me want a Daytona of my own even more, if that is even possible.
Un flippin real. Amazing work and pictures. :drool5:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 16, 2009, 07:31:02 PM
My Hemi-X has the original grease nipple "plugs" still installed. The FSM actually discusses these. Looking Good!!!
Here is a pic off my X.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 08:18:11 PM
Did you notice the coverage on the side was so thin you can actually see the painted bore/piston size letters on the block? I have painted a couple like that. You really need a mint oil pan to get away with the drippy, non-coverage on the bottom!
Jim, I did notice the lettering on the block at first glance - quite a neat detail, and it had to be pretty thin paint to show that lettering. Thanks for the pics of your 'X - awesome reference material!
Bill, you are correct about the oil pan coverage, and I'm wondering if it makes sense to drop the pan and clutch inspection cover, clean/strip them, and shoot them with a skimpy coat of paint to match the shadowing shown elsewhere... I don't know how "mint" my oil pan was, which may have contributed to how much paint coverage Vance used. Might mean (yet another) parts search... *sigh* Anyone know if the clutch inspection covers were primed beneath the engine paint?
Danny, I'll see what weekend works best. So you're saying anytime from the 9th on? Oh, and I don't think anyone questions your desire for a Daytona. At least not me, anyway...
Thanks, rtse, I'm glad you are enjoying the progress - I'm enjoying the ride along with everyone else, since I only get to see the car every so often myself.
Troy, I can see you working on your ride - whatever it is - one piece at a time until it looks brand-spanking-new, so I don't think you'll be wearing black socks, sandals and bermuda shorts before you get 'er done.
Quote from: hemigeno on December 20, 2009, 06:13:13 PM
...
Troy, I can see you working on your ride - whatever it is - one piece at a time until it looks brand-spanking-new, so I don't think you'll be wearing black socks, sandals and bermuda shorts before you get 'er done.
Yeah... If I have a solid car, then all the "detailing" is fun and can be done incrementally... :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 20, 2009, 06:13:13 PM
Bill, you are correct about the oil pan coverage, and I'm wondering if it makes sense to drop the pan and clutch inspection cover, clean/strip them, and shoot them with a skimpy coat of paint to match the shadowing shown elsewhere... I don't know how "mint" my oil pan was, which may have contributed to how much paint coverage Vance used. Might mean (yet another) parts search... *sigh* Anyone know if the clutch inspection covers were primed beneath the engine paint?
No primer Geno - engine enamel over bare metal. This is a 69 Hemi - but same deal.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 20, 2009, 07:59:07 PM
No primer Geno - engine enamel over bare metal. This is a 69 Hemi - but same deal.
:scope:
I remember you pointing out the paint on the direct-drive starter (which created a little bit of :boxing_smiley: with some people IIRC), but didn't remember anything about the clutch fork having engine overspray...
:scratchchin:
Quote from: hemigeno on December 21, 2009, 10:05:16 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 20, 2009, 07:59:07 PM
No primer Geno - engine enamel over bare metal. This is a 69 Hemi - but same deal.
:scope:
I remember you pointing out the paint on the direct-drive starter (which created a little bit of :boxing_smiley: with some people IIRC), but didn't remember anything about the clutch fork having engine overspray...
:scratchchin:
Yes - That car threw a lot of the conventional beliefs on its ears! The proof is there though. The fork was installed but not the rubber boot. That aspect was a 69 Hemi 4-speed deal as I have seen the boot painted on '70 motors. Not sure on 69 440, 4-speeds as far as the fork and boot getting painted. The rest (b/hsg and cover) is standard 4-speed procedure.
Hi Geno,
Whilst unashamedly pillaging your photos for guidance during my build, i saw something you might be able to answer. In the pic, the washers at the front of the tie rods (that retain the bushes) that come from the lower arm i see are black. I thought 69 cars were cad plated?
Have you got on thoughts on this or am i just wrong?
Quote from: roger440 on December 30, 2009, 03:40:30 PM
Hi Geno,
Whilst unashamedly pillaging your photos for guidance during my build, i saw something you might be able to answer. In the pic, the washers at the front of the tie rods (that retain the bushes) that come from the lower arm i see are black. I thought 69 cars were cad plated?
Have you got on thoughts on this or am i just wrong?
Roger, hope the pics are helping out - that's one of the main reasons I've been documenting this stuff.
Just double-checking here, but are the parts in question the ones marked with the yellow arrow below? I am going from memory here, but it was my recollection that the original strut rod/arm bushing retainers were supposed to be black phosphate coated. If that's not the case, I'm sure we'll both hear about it pretty soon... :lol:
I thought all the strut hardware was .... (from the retaining nut on the backside of the lower control arm, to the actual strut all the way to clear cadium bushing washers)... Don't think I've ever seen a strut bushing washer pair zinc phosphate.
Troy
The chiming in begins!
The nuts should be Silver Cad or silver Zinc - aka clear cad or clear zinc.
A few 71 cars and over the counter NOS were black zinc. The two finishes on 69-70 stuff is either silver cad or a tough to duplicate greenish-brownish plating that was similar (but not exactly like) to the horn bolts. There is still some debate to those two finishes as well among some of the top dogs. One says silver cad (as Troy mentioned on the back side of the washer) and another says that greenish brown was applied over a silver cad base and what we are seeing is that stuff worn off the silver cad. Verrrrrry Interesting......
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 07:30:40 PM
Yes - PCV valves were all painted on the engine - except Hemi.
Here is an original paint cover off of Doc.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=116764;image)
Jim and/or Geno..
I notice the valve cover has the last three digits of the part number of 2946
917 written in black on the passenger frontside.. Would this also go on the driver's front or is the placement a totally random thing........
I just finishing some detailing on my Daytona's engine and want to place the digits in the appropriate place....
Thanks..
Troy
Troy - The Engine number goes on the passenger side and the trans code goes on the drivers side. Auto = 5, Stick = 0 I posted pics of both somewhere on this board - I'll search for the link.
Here it is.... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,49682.msg544930.html#msg544930 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,49682.msg544930.html#msg544930)
P.S.
FYI - This is not the same coding for a Hemi
Quote from: hemigeno on December 30, 2009, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: roger440 on December 30, 2009, 03:40:30 PM
Hi Geno,
Whilst unashamedly pillaging your photos for guidance during my build, i saw something you might be able to answer. In the pic, the washers at the front of the tie rods (that retain the bushes) that come from the lower arm i see are black. I thought 69 cars were cad plated?
Have you got on thoughts on this or am i just wrong?
Roger, hope the pics are helping out - that's one of the main reasons I've been documenting this stuff.
Just double-checking here, but are the parts in question the ones marked with the yellow arrow below? I am going from memory here, but it was my recollection that the original strut rod/arm bushing retainers were supposed to be black phosphate coated. If that's not the case, I'm sure we'll both hear about it pretty soon... :lol:
Yes, that is the one.
This is what ive done on mine, with the nuts black:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 30, 2009, 09:03:22 PM
The chiming in begins!
The nuts should be Silver Cad or silver Zinc - aka clear cad or clear zinc.
A few 71 cars and over the counter NOS were black zinc. The two finishes on 69-70 stuff is either silver cad or a tough to duplicate greenish-brownish plating that was similar (but not exactly like) to the horn bolts. There is still some debate to those two finishes as well among some of the top dogs. One says silver cad (as Troy mentioned on the back side of the washer) and another says that greenish brown was applied over a silver cad base and what we are seeing is that stuff worn off the silver cad. Verrrrrry Interesting......
And the nuts should be plated too? Looks like ive got some rework to do! What about the LCA nuts?
Did some more research (which is what I should have done in the first place :slap: )
The nuts on the front of the K-member are 5/8x11 Hex self-locking with a (clear) Zinc finish
The nuts onte back side of the LCA are 9/16x18 flange head self-locking with a Phosphate finish
The front retainers are either brown chromate or (clear) zinc finish
The front spring pins are 1/8" dia x 1.00" long with a phosphate finish
All that jives with what Jim/maxwellwedge has already stated - thanks again, Jim...
Quote from: hemigeno on December 31, 2009, 08:34:15 AM
Did some more research (which is what I should have done in the first place :slap: )
The nuts on the front of the K-member are 5/8x11 Hex self-locking with a (clear) Zinc finish
The nuts onte back side of the LCA are 9/16x18 flange head self-locking with a Phosphate finish
The front retainers are either brown chromate or (clear) zinc finish
The front spring pins are 1/8" dia x 1.00" long with a phosphate finish
All that jives with what Jim/maxwellwedge has already stated - thanks again, Jim...
Excellent! Looks like we will both be busy.
Hey all - It's easy to change stuff! Brown Chromate huh? - Is that the plating I was trying to describe while waving my hands? I have to check if anyone up here does it. It would work out to $50-$75 per washer! :o Well, that's less than my wife paid for her washer - right? :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 31, 2009, 09:00:07 AM
Well, that's less than my wife paid for her washer - right? :lol:
Bet she needs a good one with you around...... :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 31, 2009, 09:00:07 AM
Brown Chromate huh? - Is that the plating I was trying to describe while waving my hands?
:lol:
Yeah, something like that. I asked Vance about that this morning, and he said he's seen those retainers (on '69 cars, anyway) olive green, brown, black and everything in between - but never silver/gold or anything shiny**. Those are just the original-level cars he's seen, of course.
**Disclaimer: Actual results may vary :P
I've got some of these washers nos and all are a brownish zinc chromate in color.
I bought a box of nos strut rod bushing kits from a vender on the 'bay about 3 years ago out of Canada , eh
I'll post a few pics this weekend, gotta party tonight, or at least as good as a 50 year old can party
Quote from: hemigeno on December 31, 2009, 01:01:58 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 31, 2009, 09:00:07 AM
Brown Chromate huh? - Is that the plating I was trying to describe while waving my hands?
:lol:
Yeah, something like that. I asked Vance about that this morning, and he said he's seen those retainers (on '69 cars, anyway) olive green, brown, black and everything in between - but never silver/gold or anything shiny**. Those are just the original-level cars he's seen, of course.
**Disclaimer: Actual results may vary
:P
Well that clears it up then ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Anything was possible except what ive done!
Quote from: gtx6970 on December 31, 2009, 02:23:53 PM
I've got some of these washers nos and all are a brownish zinc chromate in color.
I bought a box of nos strut rod bushing kits from a vender on the 'bay about 3 years ago out of Canada , eh
I'll post a few pics this weekend, gotta party tonight, or at least as good as a 50 year old can party
:2thumbs:
Wonder what this 45 yr. old Daddy's going to do with a 3 and 9 yr. old................ Watch DISNEY FILMS after college football !!!! :smilielol:
Here's a front strut nut.Fresh out of a sealed 1986 bag.
Got some more eye candy pictures from Vance last week... The dash is back in!
Some pics of the business-end of the dash... this is a non-tach car, unfortunately. The odometer mileage was set at the number hand-written on the car's last registration receipt from 1977. Gerry Meade (the owner when the car turned crispy on the edges) wrote down the odo reading after the fire, probably for insurance claim purposes. It was just a few months and less than 2,000 miles of driving since it's last vehicle inspection where the inspector recorded its mileage as well. Oh, and those marks on the new steering wheel will buff right out... I hope... :-\
I need to take some pictures next time up of the ashtray innards. Those little suckers are tough to refurbish, as the actual ashtray is galvanized. After galvanizing, they are riveted to the faceplate and the front of the faceplate - including the rivet heads - is sprayed with the suede-finish dash paint. The remnants of just a few cigarettes will discolor the ashtrays themselves, rendering most originals nearly impossible to refurbish unless you can find the correct style/size rivet, but thankfully a new one was located. Plus, I was able to find the correct lighter knob and element too, thanks to the input from you guys.
The horn pads seemed to have gone through an evolution sometime during the model year. For whatever reason, it seems the late '69 model year horn pads were a molded rubber with a visible seam line along the top half of the pad (if you viewed it while resting on the column-side end). The bottom half (when viewed from that perspective) has no texturing. Other styles I've seen almost seem like they're a molded vinyl product like the dash pads, and there are other molded rubber patterns as well which I think are for 1970 cars. One bad thing about this particular style, is that the texturing seems to wear down fairly easily... and where most people grab the steering wheel (9:00 and 3:00 due to the shape of the pad) puts their thumbs right on the end of the pad. 90% of the pads I looked at (and I looked at a whole lot over the years) were worn to one degree or another. It took quite a while to find a decent pad that was the right style and was not worn. I'll try to snap some pictures of this area next trip up.
Geno... Looks awesome !!!! Who refurbished the odometer numbers?
Superior level of work and detail coming along very nicely :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
David Patik @ Performance Car Graphics did the dash faceplate, instrument & odo refurbishing. I really didn't like the thought of having an otherwise pristine dash and yellowed-from-time odometer numbers.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 04, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Superior level of work and detail coming along very nicely :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thanks, Dave!
I have some additional pics Vance sent on Thursday of the installed exhaust system and a few other undercarriage details. Need to resize & rename them for posting, and I'll try to do so later this week.
Question for Geno... Is the textured paint on your dash original for 68 chargers?
Quote from: 68pplcharger on January 04, 2010, 12:35:10 PM
Question for Geno... Is the textured paint on your dash original for 68 chargers?
1968 should be a suede-finish paint AFAIK. Chrysler did that so the sun did not glare off the dash and cause a problem for drivers. I haven't seen the dash paint in person, and pictures may make the texture appear differently than it actually is. Should be suede, which definitely isn't perfectly smooth.
Quote from: 68pplcharger on January 04, 2010, 12:35:10 PM
Question for Geno... Is the textured paint on your dash original for 68 chargers?
I believe the finish on the '68's versions the '69's are slightly different.. I think the '68's are a flatter suede than '69..
Troy
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 04, 2010, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on January 04, 2010, 12:35:10 PM
Question for Geno... Is the textured paint on your dash original for 68 chargers?
I believe the finish on the '68's versions the '69's are slightly different.. I think the '68's are a flatter suede than '69..
Troy
:scratchchin:
As usual, I'm still learnin'... Did not know there was a difference...
:2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 04, 2010, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: 68pplcharger on January 04, 2010, 12:35:10 PM
Question for Geno... Is the textured paint on your dash original for 68 chargers?
I believe the finish on the '68's versions the '69's are slightly different.. I think the '68's are a flatter suede than '69..
Troy
:scratchchin:
As usual, I'm still learnin'... Did not know there was a difference...
:2thumbs:
It's just my observational "recollection". I've visited Mike's BE&A website and viewed it.. He's pretty dead on....
'68
(http://www.beaparts.com/images/item_images/143-R.jpg)
'69 - '70 you can see the shine/gloss reflection a little better....
(http://www.beaparts.com/images/item_images/141-R.jpg)
Thanks for the info guys, Just replaced the inner fenders last week and just collecting the info before I get to that particular stage.
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 04, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
It's just my observational "recollection". I've visited Mike's BE&A website and viewed it.. He's pretty dead on....
The faceplate finish could be different though, as those weren't painted/finished in the same steps. The tops of dashboards take a beating with all the sun rays they catch so it's hard to find pristine originals there, but original '68 and '69 lower dash frames might tell the tale, dontchathink?
oh no.. I was just referring to the instrument/radio/glove box bezels, not dash frame.. I believe the dash frames are the same...
Guess the question then is, which component was 68pplcharger asking about?
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 01:04:44 PM
Guess the question then is, which component was 68pplcharger asking about?
Oh yeah... Bet it was the frame.........
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 04, 2010, 01:12:18 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 01:04:44 PM
Guess the question then is, which component was 68pplcharger asking about?
Oh yeah... Bet it was the frame.........
You were right Gene, it was the frame. The "glare off of the dash" story told me you had it correct.
Thanks
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 12:33:18 PM
David Patik @ Performance Car Graphics did the dash faceplate, instrument & odo refurbishing. I really didn't like the thought of having an otherwise pristine dash and yellowed-from-time odometer numbers.
Geno are the ODO #'s decals of some sort?
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 12:33:18 PM
David Patik @ Performance Car Graphics did the dash faceplate, instrument & odo refurbishing. I really didn't like the thought of having an otherwise pristine dash and yellowed-from-time odometer numbers.
I'll agree with that.
PCG said he couldn't legally do the odo numbers back then(this is 8-9 years ago)
It's the first thing I spot whenever I get behind the wheel.
Have a odo wheel redone just waiting for me to install.
I finally took a picture of the NOS strut rod washers I have. and in these kits SOME of the toplock nuts had a greenish tint to them ( I can't find the nuts right now to snap a pic)
These deffenitly have a brownish tint to them with a slight rainbow effect to the finish when viewed in the light at an angle as opposed the common all black ones
Quote from: UFO on January 04, 2010, 07:42:08 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on January 04, 2010, 12:33:18 PM
David Patik @ Performance Car Graphics did the dash faceplate, instrument & odo refurbishing. I really didn't like the thought of having an otherwise pristine dash and yellowed-from-time odometer numbers.
I'll agree with that.
PCG said he couldn't legally do the odo numbers back then(this is 8-9 years ago)
It's the first thing I spot whenever I get behind the wheel.
Have a odo wheel redone just waiting for me to install.
Brian how was the wheel redone? decals?
Chris, sorry for not answering sooner - I was trying to find out what the procedures are and still don't have an answer. David's catalog only mentions "reletter yellowed odometer numbers", and the price was listed at $30 although that may have changed (been a long time since I got a new catalog from PCG). Whether "relettering" means a decal, or what, I dunno but will ask David.
Quote from: gtx6970 on January 04, 2010, 07:50:50 PM
I finally took a picture of the NOS strut rod washers I have. and in these kits SOME of the toplock nuts had a greenish tint to them ( I can't find the nuts right now to snap a pic)
These deffenitly have a brownish tint to them with a slight rainbow effect to the finish when viewed in the light at an angle as opposed the common all black ones
Bill, thanks for those pictures. I dunno how to describe that coating look/effect any more than Jim/maxwellwedge does... :P I've heard people say that it depended on how fresh (or contaminated with machining oils) the vat of dip chemicals were as to what tint the finished parts had, and that's probably quite true. That most likely explains the variations we see in situations like this.
One of those retainers looks like it has hash marks on it, which might mean it was at the bottom of a dipping basket, y'think? :scratchchin:
Interesting finish on the washers. I might pop mine quickly through some black chromate over the top of the cad effect plating so they dont go completely black. Should get me close! Thanks for posting up.
Quote
Bill, thanks for those pictures. I dunno how to describe that coating look/effect any more than Jim/maxwellwedge does...
Did you try waving your arms around? :smilielol:
Quote from: UFO on January 05, 2010, 04:54:02 PM
Quote
Bill, thanks for those pictures. I dunno how to describe that coating look/effect any more than Jim/maxwellwedge does...
Did you try waving your arms around? :smilielol:
THAT'S what I forgot to do...
:lol:
the odo wheel is redone with decals. it's nearly undetectable, certainly moreso than the speedo face itself.
Dave does a really great job--better than i've been able to pull off at home or while at BoS...
Doug,
Out of curiosity, what are the telltale signs of a refurbished speedometer?
:scratchchin:
OK, here are some additional pics Vance sent me last week... the exhaust system is in!
In the first pic, you can see the factory-style exhaust hanger. There is a square hole punched in the lower half of the bracket, which is something Vance had to find a way to add. The pair of brackets I picked up at this year's Carlisle show were correct except for that hole, so he sent me a shot of how it turned out. Apparently it wasn't any fun to make the tooling to punch that in there...
The second shot shows the correct Q-clamp, exhaust tip and hanger/bracket. The chrome on the exhaust tips is not perfect (just like the originals), and shows marks on them from the tooling. You can't see it from this shot, but the original-style exhaust tip bracket is an "S" hook that actually slips into a hole/slot on the top side of the exhaust tip and is tack welded into place. The more modern tips have an "L" bracket that is simply welded onto the top of the exhaust tip.
In the third picture, you can see the bends in the H-pipe going into the muffler. You can see the squash marks and tooling scratches from when the H-pipe was formed... definitely not mandrel-bent... The clamp is one of Frank Badalson's repro clamps, which is a pretty nice part all things considered. The nuts are the right shape & style, and the bottom half of the clamp has the right curve to it (not straight across). Even as nice as these are, I'm still trying to get a pair of new assembly-line clamps to replace these. Yes, I'm certifiably nuts.
More detail shots of the H-pipe, including a shot of the torsion-bar clearancing near the starter. You can also see the drips on the torsion bars pretty clearly in the second shot.
Looks awsome.
I'm not sure if it is just a case of the assembly lines workers using whatever they had laying around, but I've never seen an original unrestored Daytona that had Q Clamps holding the Chrome exhaust tips to the tail pipes. I remember talking to Frank Badalson about that too. The clamps on original cars I've seen were the regular types with 2 nuts.
Dave Benasutti's car before it was restored was the way i described.
The first pic is shot of the newly-installed muffler's stamping... no part number or pentastar on either side, just a date code and whatever the "H" meant :lol: You can also see in the top left-hand corner how the pipe stub was spot-welded into place.
On the end of the muffler which faced the rear of the car, there were drain holes to allow condensation to escape. You'll see these holes on the top and bottom of that end cap, because the mufflers were not handed for the left or right side. One side was flipped over when compared to the other side's orientation. In that second pic, you can also see the exhaust hanger's integral clamp - which has a straight-across profile rather than curved like the front clamp.
Dang Geno !!!! She looks great, beyond Great !!!!! Where did you get those exhaust tip hanger brackets? Are they NOS or did you replate them?
I remember those Q-clamps on Whitey, she had the original exhaust on her and those same clamps were on the tip-2-tailpipe.....
Troy
Quote from: johntpr on January 07, 2010, 09:41:03 AM
Looks awsome.
I'm not sure if it is just a case of the assembly lines workers using whatever they had laying around, but I've never seen an original unrestored Daytona that had Q Clamps holding the Chrome exhaust tips to the tail pipes. I remember talking to Frank Badalson about that too. The clamps on original cars I've seen were the regular types with 2 nuts.
Dave Benasutti's car before it was restored was the way i described.
Thanks, John!
You're absolutely right, the factory could have used either "regular" style clamps or the Q-clamps. I guess I should have mentioned that in my earlier text. The engineering graphics mention both part numbers/styles as being OK to use, so it may have boiled down to what was in the bin when the car rolled down the line. I'll ask Vance to look up in his notes how the unrestored Daytona's he's documented were equipped. I'm the one who supplied the Q-clamps to him, and he didn't bat an eye so I assumed they were correct. More later... and thanks for asking the question!
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 07, 2010, 09:45:38 AM
Dang Geno !!!! She looks great, beyond Great !!!!! Where did you get those exhaust tip hanger brackets? Are they NOS or did you replate them?
I remember those Q-clamps on Whitey, she had the original exhaust on her and those same clamps were on the tip-2-tailpipe.....
Troy
Thanks Troy! The hanger brackets are indeed NOS. I had some fairly decent reproductions, but the shape of the strap that wrapped around the rubber isolator just didn't look right. As with many of the parts left without much protection from the weather, original components get quite pitted. You can see some slight pitting still evident in the tie-down bracket... same deal, although Vance did the best he could with the parts I had and/or gave him to work with.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 07, 2010, 09:55:31 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 07, 2010, 09:45:38 AM
Dang Geno !!!! She looks great, beyond Great !!!!! Where did you get those exhaust tip hanger brackets? Are they NOS or did you replate them?
I remember those Q-clamps on Whitey, she had the original exhaust on her and those same clamps were on the tip-2-tailpipe.....
Troy
Thanks Troy! The hanger brackets are indeed NOS. I had some fairly decent reproductions, but the shape of the strap that wrapped around the rubber isolator just didn't look right. As with many of the parts left without much protection from the weather, original components get quite pitted. You can see some slight pitting still evident in the tie-down bracket... same deal, although Vance did the best he could with the parts I had and/or gave him to work with.
Geno.. I correct my last question.. The plate that the brackets fit into, the plate that's bolted to the frame rails, where did you get those or are they replated originals.....
The first three pics are of the headlight wiring harness extension that Creative Industries had to fabricate (P/N 3412665) in order to connect the reworked 2983438 "regular Charger" headlight wiring harness. The 2983438 harness modifications were only made to the vacuum tube lengths, so some provisions had to be made to connect the headlight harness extending from the firewall (which terminates behind the battery) and the headlight harness in the nosecone (which makes it to about the radiator yoke if you stretched it like a guitar string). Even though you'd only have to have maybe 12 inches to make the connection, they chose to make this harness +/- 26" or so. Length dimensions on these harnesses varied wildly, as this is an example of a part/modification that Creative hired day-workers -- literally off the street corner -- to perform.
The last picture was one Vance took to show me that the alternator housing has been repaired. In case anyone didn't know already, just because you have an "NOS" part, it absolutely does not mean you have a perfect part. When I got it, one half of the alternator case (the clamshell) was not machined to receive the locating pins from the stator, so there was a 1/8" or so gap between the shell half and the stator all the way around. That's probably why it was not used on the production line, and why it survived all these years sitting on a parts shelf somewhere. Vance had to machine the shell to receive the pins, and it now fits together nicely. I'm not sure about the pulley though - were the original pulleys not supposed to have paint in the V-groove? :scratchchin:
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 07, 2010, 10:02:34 AM
Geno.. I correct my last question.. The plate that the brackets fit into, the plate that's bolted to the frame rails, where did you get those or are they replated originals.....
AFAIK, those are the refurbished original plates from my car. I'll have to double-check to confirm.
Probably another case of random workmanship or changeout on the line .But my videos and pictures show my daytona with the non Q clamps.Going on memory I recall the mufflers having the pentstar logo on it and clearance indents .Got to check pictures and video for other numbers and marks
What a nice new Daytona, makes me want to get the brillo pads and WD40 out and start cleaning....hehheh
Great work Geno!
Steve
Quote from: johntpr on January 07, 2010, 09:41:03 AM
Looks awsome.
I'm not sure if it is just a case of the assembly lines workers using whatever they had laying around, but I've never seen an original unrestored Daytona that had Q Clamps holding the Chrome exhaust tips to the tail pipes. I remember talking to Frank Badalson about that too. The clamps on original cars I've seen were the regular types with 2 nuts.
Dave Benasutti's car before it was restored was the way i described.
I have to say I have never seen/have/had any original 69 B-Bodies with Q-clamps either.....but as a famous Mopar dude once told me - "We ain't seen every car"!
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 07, 2010, 10:32:49 AM
Probably another case of random workmanship or changeout on the line .But my videos and pictures show my daytona with the non Q clamps.Going on memory I recall the mufflers having the pentstar logo on it and clearance indents .Got to check pictures and video for other numbers and marks
Gonna check the ones on my X
Quote from: hemigeno on January 07, 2010, 10:20:00 AM
I'm not sure about the pulley though - were the original pulleys not supposed to have paint in the V-groove? :scratchchin:
Pulley looks perfect to me. :2thumbs:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 07, 2010, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: johntpr on January 07, 2010, 09:41:03 AM
Looks awsome.
I'm not sure if it is just a case of the assembly lines workers using whatever they had laying around, but I've never seen an original unrestored Daytona that had Q Clamps holding the Chrome exhaust tips to the tail pipes. I remember talking to Frank Badalson about that too. The clamps on original cars I've seen were the regular types with 2 nuts.
Dave Benasutti's car before it was restored was the way i described.
I have to say I have never seen/have/had any original 69 B-Bodies with Q-clamps either.....but as a famous Mopar dude once told me - "We ain't seen every car"!
Here's the engineering graphic portion which shows the optional clamps... Whether they actually used Q-clamps or not in '69, I can't swear either way - and I certainly haven't seen every car either!
The bottom picture shows the date when the Q-clamp was added as an optional clamp - and with an 8/68 introduction date you'd think it was at least possible some '69s - especially later in the model year - got the "new" style of clamp. I may still pick up an extra set of saddle clamps in case this is one of those things that proves not to be what I thought earlier... and there are lots of things like that as I've gone along! Worse yet, there are a few things shown in documentation which were not done at all on the cars like the details show. In instances like that, I prefer to follow how the car was built, rather than the documents.
True to that about lots of engineering not making it out to the floor. Seen a bunch of '67's with them (they were a different style - part# to these). I have a few '70's with them as well. Can't comment on '68's.
Man Geno, since you said it already you ARE certifiably nutz!! But I love it :thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 07, 2010, 09:43:10 AM
The first pic is shot of the newly-installed muffler's stamping... no part number or pentastar on either side, just a date code and whatever the "H" meant :lol: You can also see in the top left-hand corner how the pipe stub was spot-welded into place.
On the end of the muffler which faced the rear of the car, there were drain holes to allow condensation to escape. You'll see these holes on the top and bottom of that end cap, because the mufflers were not handed for the left or right side. One side was flipped over when compared to the other side's orientation.
Geno the original mufflers on my X do have a Pentastar and some numbers under it (2 or 3 lines of characters) I couldn't make out - the car is stacked over top of another at the moment. And the writing goes the other way - from side to side not from front to back. I thought I have pics....gonna look. I have some NOS - I'll check those as well. May have been a vendor thing - I know they used Walker and Arvin and at least one other. They have the stamping one one side only - there was no left and right part number. One shows all the characters, the other has them facing up towards the floor. All "Hemi" mufflers (Big-block) have the one squished corner at each end - opposite corner for driveshaft clearance.
My old daytona I recall seeing the pentstar as well
I will have to check it out to be sure, but I believe that my NOS mufflers have a small Pentastar... maybe 1 to 1.25 inches in "diameter". I am certain the NOS resonators have a larger Pentastar... about 2.5 inches in "diameter".
Allen
Vance had mentioned Walker, and at least one other vendor of OEM mufflers for Chrysler back then, and it may have been Arvin. Did they have a location in/near Grand Rapids? If so, then Arvin's the one he was thinking about, but I'll find out which Mfg. it was next weekend.
I still have another single NOS muffler, from a red/white/blue-label box, but it didn't look even close to the assembly-line style since it had a bunch of visible spot-welds all around the 'barrel' where they secured the internal baffling. It did have a pentastar though. The one with the 2-69 date (but no pentastar) is definitely NOS Chrysler-issue, as it came in a blue/white/blue-label box with the right xxxx300 part number label. I'll still have to do more research on the other nuances. Good stuff... Years ago I remember people bashing the reproduction "date coded" mufflers as having a part number that was never on the originals.
Keep it comin', guys!
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on January 09, 2010, 11:45:13 AM
I will have to check it out to be sure, but I believe that my NOS mufflers have a small Pentastar... maybe 1 to 1.25 inches in "diameter". I am certain the NOS resonators have a larger Pentastar... about 2.5 inches in "diameter".
Allen
Here is an original resonator - still can't find my muffler pics :brickwall:
I don't know if this will help, but here's a couple pictures of the original mufflers that I removed from my white Superbird.
Ken
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c108/hemityme/Muffler2.jpg)
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c108/hemityme/Muffler1.jpg)
.I didnt save any old mufflers but I saved and still have from mufflers on back from a low mileage superbird original tail pipes from a non tip car .Just keep them to copy from
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/superbirdorigexhaust.jpg)
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 09, 2010, 06:05:40 PM
Here is an original resonator - still can't find my muffler pics :brickwall:
Yeah, original resonators definitely had the pentastar - here's a pic of the ones I have back on the shelf:
Quote from: Hemi_tyme on January 10, 2010, 10:28:59 AM
I don't know if this will help, but here's a couple pictures of the original mufflers that I removed from my white Superbird.
Ken
Wow, those were pretty far gone... Was the car still on the road with those? :o I had a timing chain jump a tooth or two several years ago, and the engine backfired so badly that it blew apart/split both mufflers. Sounded pretty sick (not in a good way) after that.
Thanks for the pics, Ken! Looks like 10 69 (no dash) with a pentastar and 5-digit vendor code to me, but at least the stampings are oriented the same as mine.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 09, 2010, 02:34:38 PM
Vance had mentioned Walker, and at least one other vendor of OEM mufflers for Chrysler back then, and it may have been Arvin. Did they have a location in/near Grand Rapids? If so, then Arvin's the one he was thinking about, but I'll find out which Mfg. it was next weekend.
*Follow Up*
I asked Vance today about the muffler vendors. He mentioned both Walker and Arvin like we've thought. The third vendor I couldn't think of was
A P Parts... oddly enough, they were located in Grand Haven, MI, and were a supplier of mufflers (and maybe other exhaust components) for Chrysler as well as the other Big 3 Mfg's. The former owner of A P Parts only passed away a short time ago.
Vance said that a lot of OE mufflers did indeed have the pentastar, but not all did. He seemed to think it may have been the A P Parts versions which did not have a Pentastar, but it's hard to track the source of a particular part which also doesn't have a vendor code. Doesn't really help much, other than Vance wasn't concerned at all with the lack of a pentastar on the pair of mufflers I found.
:Twocents:
I looked thru what I could. Found more pages on the exhaust
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/Engineering.jpg)
Gene I'll be patiently waiting for you to resize the photo's you took of the car yesterday. If your waiting on me to resize some photo's and post them you might be waiting a while. I'm going to try to sort through them and put them on a DVD for you but it will probably be 2 DVD's. Wound up with about 5 gigs worth of decent pictures yesterday.
You know even after 11 hours of :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: over your Daytona I don't think I wound up getting a picture of everything I wanted to see. Thanks for allowing me to tag along and I hope you had a safe trip back home last night. I made it here around 1:15 am or so which is an easy 2-3 hours before I told my wife I'd be back so I might have scored some brownie points with her for being home before they woke up this morning.
Danny,
Yeah, I'll get around to resizing the pictures sooner or later. Thanks for trekking up there to see & photo the car - your camera skills & equipment definitely dwarf mine, so I'll be anxiously awaiting a copy of that DVD with your photos myself.
My head hit the pillow at about 4:15am Sunday morning. Would have been sooner, but dense fog from just south of Chicago until I got home slowed me down a bunch. Plus, I witnessed a pretty bad one-car rollover accident while going through downtown St. Louis at about 2:20am and spent time making sure the drunk guy was OK.
Fun time on Saturday though, for sure!
Okay so I tried to resize just a few detail shots for you Gene. I'll leave the narration up to you as well. I don't narrate my own DVD's why narrate photo's right?

Quote from: hemigeno
I would not normally modify people's threads to interject my own comments, but since it makes no sense to re-post Danny's pictures with my own comments, I'll take a little Moderator liberty and add my comments/narration to Danny's posts. My comments will be in red, so blame me for anything in those sections. Oh, and THANK YOU Danny for resizing/posting these pictures!
If you look at the first pic, you'll see the gray primer with R4 red overspray from the main body painting, along with gloss black overspray from where the pinch weld at the bottom of the rocker panel was blacked out. More details on this area a little later in the pictures I took.
The second picture shows the rear valance corner and the differences in the way the seams were treated. The one on the left side (the quarterpanel seam) was filled, but the one on the right (the rear valance seam) was left open since it was sealed off from the "backside". As Danny mentioned, there are a bunch of things I had loosely intended to take photos of myself, and the backside seam sealer (and the big glob of sealant at the bottom edge) was one of those areas I totally forgot to check on or photograph either one. Oh well.
The third pic shows the U-joint strap with its date code and the style of bolts used to clamp these down. One of these days I'll need to take better pictures of the U-joint itself (or the extra one I just brought home with me) showing the metal bands/clips used to hold the endcaps on before and during installation of the driveshafts at the factory. Neat detail to me, anyway.
a few more
The first shot shows the transmission and one of the several color splotches. You can also see the red transmission mount attachment nut that we discussed a few pages back. A little later on, you'll be able to see an original nut to get a better idea of the original color/plating. I'll post some pictures I took a little later showing the pretty bad pitting on the underneath side of the transmission case. It was my idea - not Vance's - to put the transmission case in the car with all that pitting visible. Vance had very carefully filled in all that pitting, smooted everything out without losing any of the casting lines and other important contours, and painted the transmission case to mimic (as closely as possible) a bare casting look including some slightly different tints to the various components which were usually noticeable. I pretty much insisted that Vance strip the case back down to bare metal, which he obliged. Upon further review, it probably wasn't such a hot idea since the bottom side of the numbers-matching case had a fairly tough life from exposure to the elements. Guess it would have been better if the engine had a bad main seal leak to gunk everything up a little better, eh? :lol: Anyway, I am debating which is the lesser of two evils... painted tranny case, or pitted bare case... ideas anyone??
The second picture shows some of the shadow effect on the oil pan rail from the engine paint process. This was talked about in some earlier replies, so I made sure (and Danny did too) to document how the oil pan rail looked. Obviously, each engine differed in how much paint was applied to the areas, so there is no absolute pattern that MUST be followed. Vance chose to have some shadow effect as has been seen, but overall to have fairly complete paint coverage of the engine. I think it's great the way it is, but would not question those with either more or less paint coverage to suit their own tastes and/or original car's pattern.
In the last pic you can see a closeup of the original-style wheel weights. My car is not yet sporting its wheels or tires, as those need to be sent out to Stockton Wheel for refurbishing and straightening. I picked up the second set of wheels on Saturday so that both sets (the date-correct set which will wear 40 year old "new" tires) and another set which will be sporting repro bias-ply redlines. We still haven't received the refurbished trim rings back from George Iverson yet either, and placing a call to him is on my lengthy To-Do list.
and a few more
In the first pic you can see the date of the rear glass. The pertinent numbers are in the center-right of the etchings, and reads "69G". Neither Danny, I nor anyone else I've spoken with yet know what the "G" references, but the first two digits indicate the glass was made in June of '69. I have two pieces - both with the same date codes and one of which is the original back glass. We had hoped one would be in decent shape. Of course, both are scratched up enough that they just wouldn't work right for this type of a restoration effort. So, an effort is being made to have the glass polished up. Thankfully, the scratches are almost all on the outside, and the etching is on the inside. Danny snapped several pictures to satiate his own research on glass codes, and in case we needed to have ECS or another source to re-etch what you see there.
I'll have to assume that the second photo shows some of the orange peel paintwork that Vance tried to carry throughout. That effort means they really can't go to town cutting and buffing the exterior to make it shine, since that could very easily and quickly remove all that "texture".
In the third photo you can see the battery, cable (with overspray, of course), steering gearbox (we've re-used the original rather than replacing it), and some of the other engine front details. Jim has already questioned the number hand-written on the valve cover, and I'm doing some more research as to what that number should be for a 1969 440 w/ 833 car. What that number should be has not been finalized, but I tend to agree with Jim that it probably shouldn't be a "5". I am open to further input on the subject, however...
The last pic is a shot my little digital camera ain't gonna be able to take, shooting across the latch tray like that. Let's just say Danny has a "real" camera. The latch tray is installed, and (as probably mentioned earlier in the thread) has been finished off in Organosol just like my original - and a few other documented original parts - was done. The latch tray attachment bracket which is spot-welded to the yoke is the original part and was not painted black as most other cars' brackets were. Vance had to finish it off to appear as a bare metal part due to the amount of fairly deep pitting it had. That was a tradeoff... replace the part with a new piece of metal, in which case it's not an original part, or finish the original off to appear that it is bare metal. I did inquire if there's any way we can make the spot welds appear a little more pronounced and realistic looking. The original welds are still there, but they have been ever so slightly blended in. I think Vance was also going to replicate the look of the spot weld burns, since those should still be evident on a bare piece like this.
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: car porn
and even a few more
The first picture shows the jack bracket area. Vance relocated the bracket just a touch to help the bumper jack to clear the wing braces. They could have held the wing brackets over to the quarterpanel a little to allow more room, but they located the holes where the brackets went by installing the wing and brackets, then snugging everything up to see where the bracket "naturally" went. By locating the holes in that fashion, it won't put any stress or deflection on the quarterpanel once everything is installed and torqued down. Made sense to me, but that necessitated tweaking of the jack bracket just a bit. No big strain. In the marker light hole, you don't see the stripe cut out and folded in on this side, although the other side has been installed. Long story about why that is, and it's not important at the moment. This detail will get straightened out as time goes along.
I pointed out to Danny that the hood pins aren't yet detailed out, and he took this picture. They'll be taped off fairly close to the bottom (but not all the way) and the star washer, bottom of the upper jam nut & surrounding area will all get R4. This is still a work in progress.
The third picture is one of an original transmission mount nut, visible on the underneath side of the tranny crossmember. This shows the reddish color, almost a candy-apple red. Bill Alphin - do you know of anyone who does red anodizing in that flavor? :scratchchin:
In the last pic you can see the edge of the horizontal stabilizer. Wings were painted all together as an assembly, so there will be no paint on the mating edge of the extruded center section or the cast uprights where the parts meet. There is just a bit of overspray present, since the parts do not mate up perfectly.
still going
Vance pointed out to Danny and I one way to spot original (not reproduction) battery caps. If you look at the center of the cap, you'll see two parallel lines. These are always present on originals, but not on repro caps. There are other differences (I think I've covered those earlier in the thread), but that's one way to tell without ever touching a guy's battery. The same distinction holds true for green caps as well (we saw one) and probably yellow too.
Danny nabbed this second shot of the driveshaft part number stamping. I'm still amazed Vance had that part.
The third shows some of the trunk pan. Vance asked me to check old photos of my car to see how much undercoating was sprayed in this area. Quite often, he's seen undercoating in this area, as well as other parts of the rear clip. There's more work to be done throughout the rear half of the car, including replacement of all the body plugs with the correct parts.
In the last picture you can see a couple of original plastic Dana60 hole plugs. The red one on the left is what we're trying to locate, as that seems to be what was used during the '69 model year. The green one on the left has definitely been seen on E-body cars. The plugs were painted gloss black along with the axle assembly, so I don't know if it matters much what color the plug is -- until the paint starts flaking off the plastic...
like the little bunny still going
sorry if one duplicated was getting tired of error messages of file names already existing.
The first picture shows the currently available reproduction fan belt. They look great, and the stamping looks just like the originals I've seen. However, they stretch about like a rubber band when the engine revs up. Dave, I have a later-style 216 fan belt that is ink-stamped rather than heat-embossed like the OEM's were -- and at least it won't stretch. That'll have to do until I can locate a proper part.
In the second photo you can see the underside of the battery tray. I don't remember looking at that area of the car until Danny posted the photo, and one thing I need to ask Vance is whether the brace and J-clip should have as much paint right at the top of the tray. You can see that the underside of the tray didn't get complete body-color paint coverage, since it was installed and painted along with the rest of the engine compartment. I'll have to see if there's a reason that brace is more thoroughly painted, as there might be a really good reason.
This batch of Danny's photos ends with a shot similar to the first one, just of the opposite side floor pan. This side has the fuel & return line rather than the brake line & E-brake cable. Overspray galore...
I am loving it... :2thumbs:...driveshaft envy! :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: moparstuart on January 18, 2010, 05:28:36 PM
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: car porn
:hah:
Unbelievable workmanship for sure.
Oh man 4:15 am. Danny kept you out late Gene. :lol: A lot of changes since Thanksgiving for sure. :2thumbs: Where did that 216 embossed fan belt come from? Good job on that. Looks like you can take that off the needed parts list. Looking wonderful. :drool5:
Thanks for the compliments, everyone. It's getting a lot closer to being done in one sense, but the detail work takes a while to go through completely. Lots of little things, as well as some major component work yet to be completed. I have a ton of items yet to round up, although the list is a lot shorter than it used to be. I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel!
Quote from: Davtona on January 18, 2010, 06:42:26 PM
Oh man 4:15 am. Danny kept you out late Gene. :lol: A lot of changes since Thanksgiving for sure. :2thumbs: Where did that 216 embossed fan belt come from? Good job on that. Looks like you can take that off the needed parts list. Looking wonderful. :drool5:
Dave, you should be glad you didn't tag along this trip, as your drive is about as long as mine... I was actually headed for the door with the intention of leaving about a dozen times, but there was always another thought, question or topic of discussion that popped up - and off we'd go, back to the car to check something else out. See the added text above on the fan belt. That's the repop unit which stretches like a rubber band and rolls completely over in the pulley V-grooves. Not cool. A correct belt is definitely still on my list of things to scrounge.
:cheers:
You did a pretty quick job of adding a description to everything. I know you were going to do some more work and possible change some things on the hood pins and their washers and such, but that photo was more of a picture of the hood bumper and how it was covered in paint. I forgot to post a photo of the underside of the hood where it smeared the paint when closed with the paint still wet. I'll see about posting that photo in a little while.
The car is going to turn out great once completed Gene. I am afraid that with as much nutty things that I constantly go around cars and look at that if I was to ever do a restoration I'd probably go as far in restoring a car of my own, but as we discussed I am probably never going to restore my car. I'll just continue to drive it as is, because once I start doing anything to it I'd be afraid it would wind up like your car is coming along and at my rate of getting things done on the car I'd be 80 before it was completed.
Side note here Gene, but I went looking through some photos for more door VIN stickers and I can't come up with any so far. Looked at the early car but I was wrong no VIN sticker on the door. But I did find some photo's of other "survivor" cars and how the hood pins have paint up on the nut as well as over the washers, which I know is what you were wanting done to yours and I spoiled it and posted a picture of them without that.
Geno.
I'm in total awe........... I for one can't put into words how awesome your car is........... I do have one question though. The battery tray? The attachment bolt that goes through the tray into the lower forward support, shouldn't the threads be painted too? If not, in the spirit of making sure any future project of mine is correct, why wouldn't it be?
Troy
:o INCREDIBLE :faint:
Thanks Troy & Chris - I appreciate the comments!
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 18, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
The battery tray? The attachment bolt that goes through the tray into the lower forward support, shouldn't the threads be painted too? If not, in the spirit of making sure any future project of mine is correct, why wouldn't it be?
Troy, I was questioning essentially the same thing in my earlier comments added to Danny's replies - if the tray was painted as an assembled unit on the car with the rest of the engine compartment, I'm thinking the brace would have less paint near the top and the clip perhaps painted just along the edges... whatever happened to get paint based on the angle of the spraygun. Plus, as you said, the paint which made it to the bolt should be on the threads if it was assembled when painted. I haven't had a chance to ask Vance what's up here, but will do so.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 19, 2010, 08:42:57 AM
Thanks Troy & Chris - I appreciate the comments!
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 18, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
The battery tray? The attachment bolt that goes through the tray into the lower forward support, shouldn't the threads be painted too? If not, in the spirit of making sure any future project of mine is correct, why wouldn't it be?
Troy, I was questioning essentially the same thing in my earlier comments added to Danny's replies - if the tray was painted as an assembled unit on the car with the rest of the engine compartment, I'm thinking the brace would have less paint near the top and the clip perhaps painted just along the edges... whatever happened to get paint based on the angle of the spraygun. Plus, as you said, the paint which made it to the bolt should be on the threads if it was assembled when painted. I haven't had a chance to ask Vance what's up here, but will do so.
:2thumbs:
No problem.. Looks like the engine compartment was painted with the lower support brackets in place, the tray painted separately, later installed and fastened.
Your car is a Mopar-dream.....
T
Gene,
is the nut the same as E-body prop valve mtg nuts with a molded in washer ( shown) or is it a free spinning washer similar to the wiper pivot mtg.?
Sorry but I still haven't found anyone who can do the red zinc di-chromate plating.
(http://amhightechauto.com/images/parts/B12895.JPG)
Bill, it looks pretty much exactly like the ones you've pictured (not sure about the size/thread just from looking), and they definitely have a molded-in washer. Are those a buy-out item for you? What finish is on them?
hey Gene
incredible job you guys are doing on you car. :2thumbs: :cheers:
but i have one concern . if you drive that car, like i know you will , wouldn't you have a problem with all that exposed primer on the bottom of the car . i would think it would get rusty quickly :scratchchin: i guess you can clear it with a non shiny clear.
just wondering, Rene
Quote from: BigBlockSam on January 19, 2010, 05:16:56 PM
hey Gene
incredible job you guys are doing on you car. :2thumbs: :cheers:
but i have one concern . if you drive that car, like i know you will , wouldn't you have a problem with all that exposed primer on the bottom of the car . i would think it would get rusty quickly :scratchchin: i guess you can clear it with a non shiny clear.
just wondering, Rene
i was thinking that too BBS :yesnod:
for me that car is too well detailed to use :drool5:! well not just detailed , its a time machine recreation of creatives handy work & needs going in a museum :Twocents:
:popcrn:
I'm guessing that "Dip color" primer is really normal paint made to look like the Dip primer...It is on all my resto's. Gibson sells it and my guy duplicated his own a few years ago.
Yep, Jim's exactly right... what looks like primer is actually a paint product which seals things up pretty well. If I remember right, Vance uses a blend of DP products to get the tint/look he wants. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to things like that, but you're dead on, Rene - leaving it in primer would guarantee the underside would look just as crusty as it did when we started in hardly any time at all.
:2thumbs:
I'll have to talk myself into (eventually) driving the car, but that day will either come or the car will find a new home -- since my wife and I agreed before purchasing this Daytona or starting the resto that we weren't running a car museum.
BTW, welcome back, Rene! I had wondered what was up. How's the Daytona running? Still terrorizing your block on occasion? :lol:
Gene,
These are a 5/16-18 thread pitch, I can't remember what threads the trans mount is
These are zinc plated then a red di-chromate dip process to finish them off.
I buy them in bulk already done. I think theres a plater in Toronto Canada area that replicate the red dip color , Jules may know of it
Bill, the part number for that nut in 1969 is 6025804 in some of the docs I found. MMC Detroit (ICCA) says that the trans mount to crossmember nut is 5/16-18 thread just like the proportioning mounting valve nut you showed. They go on to say that the exact style of nut you posted is correct for 1970 B-bodies (this version of their book doesn't cover E-bodies) but that 1968-9 cars are supposed to have a slightly-different shaped "hex flange head 'top crush lock' nut. They also say both styles should to be a phosphate finish. :shruggy: Very well could be an early/late thing...
My transmission crossmember was still mounted to the underneath side of the transmission even though it was out of the car, so I'll double-check to make sure that what Vance showed me as "the original style transmission mount nut" was the one from my own car. He didn't bat an eye on the subject though when Danny and I were up there.
QuoteBTW, welcome back, Rene! I had wondered what was up. How's the Daytona running? Still terrorizing your block on occasion? lol
thanks Gene, yea having a blast with the daytona . i used her for two weeks as a daily driver . she handled it well . she's meant to be driven .
after all you've done with this car , you have to drive her, maybe a burnout or two.............maybe :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 19, 2010, 08:28:58 PM
Bill, the part number for that nut in 1969 is 6025804 in some of the docs I found. MMC Detroit (ICCA) says that the trans mount to crossmember nut is 5/16-18 thread just like the proportioning mounting valve nut you showed. They go on to say that the exact style of nut you posted is correct for 1970 B-bodies (this version of their book doesn't cover E-bodies) but that 1968-9 cars are supposed to have a slightly-different shaped "hex flange head 'top crush lock' nut. They also say both styles should to be a phosphate finish. :shruggy: Very well could be an early/late thing...
Yet another reason why I wont buy that bolt book - lot's of incorrect info in there.
Quote from: tan top on January 19, 2010, 06:17:30 PM
well not just detailed , its a time machine recreation of creatives handy work
:iagree:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 18, 2009, 08:04:25 PM
Do you have the unobtainium oil pan plug gasket?
Jim,
Is the gasket in the following pics the one you alluded to in your earlier post? This is not mine, pic came from a friend.
:scope:
I'll have to pull one out and have a good look........hey where did all this oil come from? :lol:
Park the car outside your shop for a couple days... If it's as cold as it was last year when I was at your place you'll have time to pull the plug, take pictures of the gasket, and put it back in before the oil starts to ooze out.
:lol:
Never mind taking pictures - I'll be able to paint the picture including the surroundings! ;D
I'm still trying to figure out when is a good time to actually head to your neck of the woods Jim. Tell me when does it get above 30 during the day. I can function at temps below that but my camera's don't really like it any colder than about 40, well the video camera in particular. Oh and I would prefer to cross the border when "Olga" is not on duty as well. :)
Quote from: 69_500 on January 27, 2010, 07:46:15 PM
I'm still trying to figure out when is a good time to actually head to your neck of the woods Jim. Tell me when does it get above 30 during the day. I can function at temps below that but my camera's don't really like it any colder than about 40, well the video camera in particular. Oh and I would prefer to cross the border when "Olga" is not on duty as well. :)
Hey Danny - It has been above 30 alot this winter. But it is always 70 in the building!
OK, time to post up some pictures I was finally able to resize last night. These were taken a couple of weekends ago when Danny and I were at Vance's. There are lots of things that are still works in progress, and I'll try to point out as much as I can that is still being "tweaked" - but I may miss some things.
These first four pics are of the engine compartment which is inching closer and closer to being fully detailed. This is as nice as you'll ever see it, as sometime soon Vance will toss a blanket or something else over the engine, and then blast whatever happens to stick out with R4 paint... just like Creative industries did when painting the hood/fenders/nosecone. All those nice-looking components on the perimeter of the engine compartment will either get overspray or completely covered. :o
Absolutely incredible Geno :2thumbs:
Some more engine compartment detail shots. The first shows the wiper fluid jug and motor. That jug will definitely get a ton of overspray, which Vance will take a rag and some thinner and "try" to wipe some of it off... more like just smear it around a bunch. Sad thing to do to an NOS jug. The heater hoses are scheduled to be replaced with an original pair which hasn't shown up at Vance's just yet. For now, I have a repro set from Frank Badalson - which is quite nice - so that he can test fire the engine in the chassis, check the heater core for leaks, etc.
In the third and fourth picture, you can see the valley pan cover and some of the other engine accessories. I may have pointed it out before, but the OEM valley pans stamped in the 60s through sometime in 1970 had a very well defined crease/rib that differs from early '70s and later Chrysler pans, as well as the currently-available repros.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 09:26:13 AM
Absolutely incredible Geno :2thumbs:
Thanks, Troy! Little by little it's coming together.
In the first picture, you can see the tee stud wrapped into the Daytona nosecone headlight wiring harness extension. Because this extension harness differs from the regular Charger headlight harness, Creative had to drill a different hole in the stamped wiring trough behind the battery. They didn't use the one Chrysler stamped into the inner fender, but randomly located and drilled their own hole a few inches closer to the radiator yoke. We've kicked this subject around in other threads so I won't belabor the point again, but this hole is specific to at least Daytonas (maybe 'Birds too, as I haven't researched those).
One of the things visible in the second picture is the positive battery cable. That's an assembly-line piece which has a longitudinal white stripe, not-so-bright-red coloring, and other distinctive marks.
The last two pictures are of the battery caps which Danny posted in his pictures as well. The first of the cap pictures is a closeup which shows the two molded lines which are indicators of an original cap.
The first pic shows the hood turn signal blockoffs. These are not normally painted nor are the screws, so they must have been installed after paint - same goes for the turn signal assemblies if the car was so equipped. You can also see hood primer showing through where they didn't get complete coverage behind the stiffening ribs, etc.
Hood pin bezel and cable attachments are shown in the third picture. We're following Troy's advice (as well as the Creative Industries backlot picture pattern) and putting the pins going side-to-side rather than front-to-back. Another reason to do it this way is that if you look carefully, the '70 Charger hood is sloping down at that location... if you put the pins in front-to-back, they are really tight at the back and not even touching the bezel at the front. At least with the side-to-side pattern it's easier to adjust the pins to have the desired pin height/clearance.
The last picture is a follow-up to an earlier comment I made about the horn pad wear. Here, you can see the area I was talking about that tends to wear on nearly every horn pad I looked at (and I looked at a BUNCH). Found this one in the 2009 Mopar Nat's swap meet.
On to the trunk compartment...
The first shot shows the bumper jack bracket placement. Vance ever-so-slightly moved the bracket inboard a bit, which allows the bumper jack to clear the wing braces and still fit down in the notch above the wheelhouse. It may still need to be bent over to allow complete clearance, but it will be a much better fit than it was originally - and won't rub up against the wing braces either. This side's marker light hole doesn't have any stripe material sticking through it yet, as they're still in the process of installing the stripe on that quarterpanel.
In the second pic, you can see the passenger's side marker hole which has the black stripe material "X"d out and folded back into the trunk area.
The third picture shows the fuel tank filler tube, which I'm not sure if this is all the way finished yet. I'm pretty sure this should have overspray on it, but my guess is that Vance is waiting on me to have the taillight harness refurbished (it's out in California at the moment). Parts of that harness and the filler tube seal/gasket gets blasted pretty good based on other cars I've seen, so he probably wants to get it all done at once.
That last picture was snapped to show the backside of the tailpanel where the "regular" Charger arrowhead emblem goes. That's the pattern you should see on a Daytona, although there are a few exceptions out there which had R/T emblems installed - and that mistake may have been tied to accidental installation of R/T quarterpanel emblems also. Those cars/mistakes are pretty rare.
Geno, in the third picture above, why is the trunk lid hinge painted black?
Troy
All of these shots show the area of the wing washer/reinforcement, the hood hinge, and where the plug was cut into the existing Charger trunk weatherstrip channel.
Vance has spent a lot of time detailing this area, and is still working on it. One thing he plans to do is to replicate the burn mark on each of the wing washer spot welds and the other welded areas. Those weren't painted on the bottom side, and what little overspray they'll get would never have masked the original weld burns. All that welding work is Creative's original handiwork, so replicating the burn evidence is still on the list of things to do. The wing braces have not been installed, as we're still waiting on an original trunk mat and the aforementioned taillight harness. Braces were installed on top of the mat and harness both, so those have to be on-hand before the back end can be buttoned up.
In several of the pictures you can see the raw edge of the metal where the weatherstrip channel was cut for the window plug welding. Vance climbed into the trunk with a short piece of recip blade, and hand-filed off the paint to make sure it looked fresh-cut. A quick wipedown with some light cosmoline will make sure it doesn't start rusting right away like the originals did. You can also see in the original sailpanel area how the metal angle strip was not painted, and how the lead dripped down from the seam.
Details, details... I love this kind of stuff even if no one else gives a flip.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 10:33:48 AM
Geno, in the third picture above, why is the trunk lid hinge painted black?
Troy
Daytona (C500 too) decklid hinges came primed in gray and black (maybe red too), and mine happened to be black originally. Vance painted 'em up black, and then oversprayed them. A regular Charger would have had these painted up pretty well from the assembly plant, but Creative didn't try as hard to hit these replacement hinges.
You can see the whole effect better in the second batch of trunk pictures which weren't up when you posted.
More pics coming afterwhile...
Quote from: hemigeno on February 02, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 10:33:48 AM
Geno, in the third picture above, why is the trunk lid hinge painted black?
Troy
Daytona (C500 too) decklid hinges came primed in gray and black (maybe red too), and mine happened to be black originally. Vance painted 'em up black, and then oversprayed them. A regular Charger would have had these painted up pretty well from the assembly plant, but Creative didn't try as hard to hit these replacement hinges.
You can see the whole effect better in the second batch of trunk pictures which weren't up when you posted.
More pics coming afterwhile...
Ahhhh,, OK.. now that you mention it, I have a pair of white hinges from a production deck lid and there's some surface rust at the swivel point and it looks like the paint wasn't as thick there as it is near the actual deck lid. Thanks !!!!! :2thumbs:
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: On detail and workmanship Did you ever have red plastic caps on your carb mixture screws.I didnt see the green wire for the 4 speed safety clutch switch .And terminal on relay soldered over .I guess you car didnt have that option.Otherwise fantastic work and attention to detail.My old car had a visible primer line where back edge of hood faced the cowl .As hood was on when painted and random workmanship that area didnt get covered to well :shruggy:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
....I didnt see the green wire for the 4 speed safety clutch switch ....
Dave, IIRC, that didn't start until the '70 model year.. Dana, my former C500 4-speed, didn't have it either......
Troy
Ok wasnt sure on switch. What you think on the red mixture caps
http://amhightechauto.com/ In the fuel section
Looks great Geno. All of my trunk hinges had that very light grey primer but there were probably different primer colors used. I don't think any 69 Positive cables had writing (part numbers) on the insulation - that was all done by 68. And you need to get Vance to route the heater hoses properly when you put on the real ones. They should cross-over each other just before or after the inner fender hose bracket. All the original (and magazine tests of the day) have them like that....the FSM shows it as well. The 2 hoses have different part numbers and it seemed the one number was always on the outside heater nipple....I'll give you those numbers after I check at home. Minor stuff. Looks freakin' fantastico!!! :2thumbs:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:58:56 AM
Ok wasnt sure on switch. What you think on the red mixture caps
http://amhightechauto.com/ In the fuel section
Caps are definitely on 69's - I have two original cars with them. AVS only.
I thought my car had them and they were red.Thanks Jim
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 02, 2010, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:58:56 AM
Ok wasnt sure on switch. What you think on the red mixture caps
http://amhightechauto.com/ In the fuel section
Caps are definitely on 69's - I have two original cars with them. AVS only.
Another cool detail item for mine....... :icon_smile_big: As soon as I get one of my AVS's good-to-go, I'll install them. Still looking for that elusive 4618SA.... Have a 4618S for you C500 owners..... Hint hint.... :D
Heater hose magazine reference .I got pictures and part# from my original heater hoses
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/daytonaradiator.jpg).The 22 inch radiator in a new daytona as seen in road test magazine
Great questions/comments guys, keep 'em comin'!
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: On detail and workmanship Did you ever have red plastic caps on your carb mixture screws.
A pair of original red caps are sitting there ready for installation, but that won't be until towards the end of the whole process and Vance is comfortable the carb is tuned. I'm not sure if the repro red caps Bill Allphin sells are the same ones Frank Badalson sells, but Frank's are nice pieces from what I've heard.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
I didnt see the green wire for the 4 speed safety clutch switch .And terminal on relay soldered over .I guess you car didnt have that option.
Troy's right - that didn't start until the 1970 model year. The terminal on the starter relay that would normally be hooked up to the neutral safety switch on an automatic trans car is, however, solderd/grounded to the case and chassis on a 1969 4-speed car like this. When I first read your comment, that's what I thought you were referring to - and I was looking back through the pictures to see if the solder shows. It does, but you kinda have to know what you're looking for in order to see it.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
Otherwise fantastic work and attention to detail.
Thanks, Dave!
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 02, 2010, 11:33:49 AM
My old car had a visible primer line where back edge of hood faced the cowl .As hood was on when painted and random workmanship that area didnt get covered to well :shruggy:
Yep, that detail will be shown in a picture I took this batch, whenever I get a chance to finish posting 'em all. :2thumbs:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 02, 2010, 12:03:31 PM
Looks great Geno. All of my trunk hinges had that very light grey primer but there were probably different primer colors used. I don't think any 69 Positive cables had writing (part numbers) on the insulation - that was all done by 68. And you need to get Vance to route the heater hoses properly when you put on the real ones. They should cross-over each other just before or after the inner fender hose bracket. All the original (and magazine tests of the day) have them like that....the FSM shows it as well. The 2 hoses have different part numbers and it seemed the one number was always on the outside heater nipple....I'll give you those numbers after I check at home. Minor stuff. Looks freakin' fantastico!!! :2thumbs:
Thanks for the comments & feedback Jim - I appreciate you taking the time to do so. :yesnod:
As for the positive battery cable, wasn't there a difference in the "lower" terminal between '68 and '69?
Vance knew that the heater hose deal is a temporary situation, so my guess is he didn't worry about correct routing on something that's (hopefully) going to be yanked off in a few more days or weeks. I'd still like to have the info on numbers, etc. if you get the chance to pass it along.
Thanks again, everyone!
:cheers:
Geno, is the distributor's advance hose ribbed? Is it supposed to?
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 01:49:33 PM
Geno, is the distributor's advance hose ribbed? Is it supposed to?
Troy,
The answer to both questions is yes, and this is a better photo taken of the hose before installation:
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 01:49:33 PM
Geno, is the distributor's advance hose ribbed? Is it supposed to?
Yup as Geno posted - also the identical hose is used on 6-Packs for the vacuum - all years for you 70-71 6-Pack Charger guys (and for the 69-1/2's too).
Continuing on with the pics...
These three pictures show the trunk weatherstrip seal. Originally, the assembly line workers had this material in bulk on a big roll, so the part number you see does not correspond to what's in the parts book (in case you wondered).
The second and third pictures show how the upper corners were formed on my particular car... they were cut about 3/4 of the way through at the corner, and the Creative Industries worker folded the seal around to fit the 90* corner. Some cars had their corners cut all the way through, and the corners were sometimes gobbered up with sealant too. Most were probably prone to leaks from Day 1 too :rotz:
Quote from: hemigeno on February 02, 2010, 06:36:12 PM
Continuing on with the pics...
These three pictures show the trunk weatherstrip seal.
Speaking of weatherstrip seals....... Let's see those door seals..... :icon_smile_big:
The wing has been painted now, as you can see. One detail to point out is that the wing was painted as an assembled unit, so there should be bare metal on the mating surfaces between the uprights and the horizontal stabilizer section (as in the first two pics).
In the last pic, you can see how the adjusting cap screw has incomplete paint coverage in one area, which was the lower side of the screw head when the paint was applied.
:scope: Everytime I read this thread it is just amazing of the detail and detail pictures along with the info. Wow.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 02, 2010, 07:04:33 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on February 02, 2010, 06:36:12 PM
Continuing on with the pics...
These three pictures show the trunk weatherstrip seal.
Speaking of weatherstrip seals....... Let's see those door seals..... :icon_smile_big:
Those did (and still do) look sweet! No pictures of those this time - I think they were in a previous post a while back. I ran across the vintage parts receipt that you sent with those the other day. Good stuff...
Quote from: 1969chargerrtse on February 02, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
:scope: Everytime I read this thread it is just amazing of the detail and detail pictures along with the info. Wow.
Thanks for the compliment - I have viewed this entire exercise as a learning experience for me, and my goal with writing all this stuff down is twofold:
1. So I won't forget the finer details, as I'd - sadly - be very quick in doing
2. So that other folks can maybe learn some of the same things I've learned along the way (and some have forgotten more details than I'll ever know anyway)
It's been an unintended benefit that by posting progress pictures as things have gone along, we've been able to get a few things straightened out that might be more difficult to fix later. Imagine how much trouble it would have been to modify the rear frame crossmember opening (the unused filler tube opening) at this stage :o
:cheers:
I took a shot of the decklid leading edge, which shows a primer line similar to what Dave mentioned he remembered from his car. The decklid was mounted when everything was painted up, and this edge got anything but complete coverage.
The second shot is of the one quarterstripe which had been installed at the time I was there. If the lettering style looks odd compared to some you've seen, there's a reason. David Patik has two different styles of lettering aligment he uses... one which doesn't make the "A" look tilted, and one which follows the original character layout but makes those "A"s look odd. Guess which one I chose...
In the third picture you can see the upper wheelhouse on the driver's side, which has the bumper jack rest. Vance found an original piece of felt that was in great shape, and glued it in.
The last picture is sort of an inside joke with Danny. Vance wrote "No" on the taillight housing in grease pencil after the three of us had discussed how the Charger 500s often had "Yes" or "No" written on their taillight housings, and whether or not there was a corrolation between the writing and whether that particular car was equipped with the A01 Light Group (which included the trunk compartment light). On C500's which had that "Yes", they relocated the switch tab, and relocated the switch & lamp. My car was not equipped with the light group, however Creative's guys went ahead and relocated the switch tab even though it was not used. There was not any writing on my taillight housings originally, and this writing won't be left in place.
Do any Daytona owners with original/undisturbed taillight housings have any writing on them? Inquiring minds want to know... :scope:
One of the things Vance fixed was the original jack handle. When I got the car, the scissors jack was missing its original bearing (THANK YOU again to Pete Veight for scoring an original "Irwin" H-19-B bearing for me!!). In its place was a black iron pipe coupling that someone had tried to use as a spacer. Apparently they had actually tried to use the scissors jack with that cobbled-up "bearing". It didn't work well at all. When they tried jacking the car, it bound up and they kept cranking... to the point that it twisted one rod and broke it right at the rivet. The short broken piece "above" the rivet stayed wedged in place, thankfully.
I was amazed at how Vance was able to weld the broken pieces together in that tight space up by the rivet. Looks good as new, and he also "untwisted" the rod so that it lays flat now.
Here's what I think is a pretty cool detail...
It doesn't take a very sharp-eyed observer to notice that my car is neither T5 or B5. However, my original marker light bezels had evidence of those exact colors beneath the black paint applied to match the stripe color. The passenger's side was B5, and the driver's side had the T5. You could see the paint peeking out around the edges, and near the reflector itself, since Creative didn't do the best job of masking things off.
The third picture is a cropped shot of my passenger's side bezel prior to the restoration, where you can see B5 showing. That's about how the bezel will look once Vance is done (without the paint chips, of course!).
Gene,
the car is incredible. I was just looking at the photo's i took of the car and it makes me drool each time I look at them.
Side note on the "YES" and "NO", we did look at a photo while up there of a Dayona tail light assembly with the "YES" wrote on it.
Thanks, Danny - and thanks for trekking north so you could burn up a few more discs taking photos with enough resolution to turn into a billboard :lol:
I remembered that there was a Daytona photo with "Yes" on it, but couldn't remember which car it was. It would be hard to believe mine had "No" and still had its switch tab relocated... that doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose stranger things have happened. The best reason not to have the writing is because the original housing didn't have anything on it.
These next three pictures were my attempt to show something that can be seen in person but is hard to capture in a photo. First up was a shot of the driprail backside, trying to show that there was paint on the inside edge of the stainless trim. Creative masked off the trim when they painted the roof, C-pillar and window plug all together, but they didn't cover all of the trim perfectly. There's a little paint line evident even if you can't see it here.
The middle two pictures are of the quarterpanel edge, which also has a paint mark. This was the break line where Creative masked off for painting the aforementioned roof, C-pillar and rear window plug. Again, it's hard to see in the photos, but it is there and you can feel it with your fingernail.
The last photo is a gratuitious shot of the heater box stamp that Troy (DB) loaned me. Incidentally, Vance is supposed to ship that right back to ya once he's done with it, Troy... Thanks again!
OK, on to some nosecone detail shots.
Take a look at the first two pictures, and you'll see that the black primer of the turn signal mounting bracket was partially taped off along with the turn signal lens, so they consequently got partially shot with body color.
The last two show inside the nosecone itself, where there's plenty of overspray on the bulkhead, wiring and anything else that was exposed to the cooling holes/openings. I don't know whether it's visible in this shot or not, but the grille itself is only painted body color on the exterior side... all there is on the interior side is what bled/dripped down, and primer.
I'm not sure about the screw heads on the grille frame - I'm thinking they needed to be body color (could be wrong, but was looking at pictures of the Malcom's car) :scratchchin:
:rofl: :brickwall: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
at myself....... To think, I cleaned some of that overspray off my turn signal housings and connector....
Troy
:lol: Not the cleanest looking thing ya ever saw, is it?
Some front spoiler shots - and it's black!
I know I'm going to catch royal, holy heck for choosing to have the the spoiler painted black, but both Vance and I ultimately came to the conclusion that it needed to go back to the only color we could prove was on that original part... organosol black. If you haven't read way back in this thread [[see Page 28]] where that subject was first kicked around, suffice it to say that this is not the only Daytona that has a spoiler which had organosol black (textured) paint on it. Whether this is a direct connection or not, but those other cars all had black tailstripes/wings too... Coincidence?? :scratchchin: :shruggy: The ONLY thing that gives me pause for concern on this subject is that one of the earliest owners of this car seems to think the spoiler was red - but I also had one of those same owners INSIST that the car came new with a Hurst T-shifter handle. :rotz:
You can also see the license plate bracket, which will actually be removed soon. Those were shipped loose in the trunk, and since Missouri only used one license plate (mounted at the rear of the car) in 1969, I won't actually need to install this one. Last week the UPS guy brought me an original Charger front license plate bracket kit with the instruction sheet, which completes the "set" of license plate brackets... the one that Hamtramck put in the trunk before conversion (to fit the Charger front bumper that was later removed and discarded), and the one which fit the nosecone that Creative put there before shipping out to the dealerships.
In the last picture you can see the underside of the nosecone-to-fender seal, and how it was only taped off part of the way down. Lots of body color paint on the exposed seal surfaces from there on...
That's all I have time for right now. There are a bunch of pictures yet to post, but I don't have the time to write up anything on them at the moment.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 02, 2010, 09:38:42 PM
The last photo is a gratuitious shot of the heater box stamp that Troy (DB) loaned me. Incidentally, Vance is supposed to ship that right back to ya once he's done with it, Troy... Thanks again!
Take your time.. I know it's in good hands..... Like a good neighbor......... ;D
Looking good. :2thumbs: :2thumbs: Tom
:o wow Geno thats lookning fantastic :dance: :coolgleamA: :yesnod: :popcrn:
Hey Geno...
I see there's still part of the original seam on the bottom surface of the nose either side of the air intake opening. I take it it's supposed to be there then. If so, that makes me happy. I have those on mine as well and thought it was the paint starting to separate... Granted, it's not as smooth as yours, but alas, it's supposed to be there.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=119593;image)
Quote from: tan top on February 03, 2010, 05:25:57 AM
:o wow Geno thats lookning fantastic :dance: :coolgleamA: :yesnod: :popcrn:
Thanks, TT - it's slowly getting there.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 03, 2010, 07:16:54 AM
Hey Geno...
I see there's still part of the original seam on the bottom surface of the nose either side of the air intake opening. I take it it's supposed to be there then. If so, that makes me happy. I have those on mine as well and thought it was the paint starting to separate... Granted, it's not as smooth as yours, but alas, it's supposed to be there.
Yeah, that seam is supposed to be there. They didn't bother leading in the seam all the way down, just low enough that the seam wouldn't show unless you were about on your knees looking for it.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 02, 2010, 01:26:44 PM
Great questions/comments guys, keep 'em comin'!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 02, 2010, 12:03:31 PM
Looks great Geno. All of my trunk hinges had that very light grey primer but there were probably different primer colors used. I don't think any 69 Positive cables had writing (part numbers) on the insulation - that was all done by 68. And you need to get Vance to route the heater hoses properly when you put on the real ones. They should cross-over each other just before or after the inner fender hose bracket. All the original (and magazine tests of the day) have them like that....the FSM shows it as well. The 2 hoses have different part numbers and it seemed the one number was always on the outside heater nipple....I'll give you those numbers after I check at home. Minor stuff. Looks freakin' fantastico!!! :2thumbs:
Thanks for the comments & feedback Jim - I appreciate you taking the time to do so. :yesnod:
As for the positive battery cable, wasn't there a difference in the "lower" terminal between '68 and '69?
Vance knew that the heater hose deal is a temporary situation, so my guess is he didn't worry about correct routing on something that's (hopefully) going to be yanked off in a few more days or weeks. I'd still like to have the info on numbers, etc. if you get the chance to pass it along.
Thanks again, everyone!
:cheers:
Hey Geno - Positive battery cables:
68 pos...2926085 - usually had writing on the insulation with part number etc. - Had the "split" 2 wire connection at the starter
69...including A-12 and Daytona...2926754 - Had the "siamesed" connection at the starter (both wires molded together) and has no writing. Has a blue part number sticker wrapped around it. The cable # in the parts book never came on a car - it was a parts counter replacement that will function but it is not what the assembly line used.
The heater hoses - I didn't write the full numbers down but the hose beginning with the part number "15" went on the outside heater core nipple on the firewall. The other hose starts with part # "16" - it goes on the other nipple. The hoses always crossed before they got to the water pump nipples.
Hope this helps!
whats the projected finish date ? By june I hope ? OH and :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :2thumbs:
Gene the photo of the "YES" that we looked at was on Chris Sauer's old car. I'll see if any of my photo's of the drip rail on the C pillar show the paint line your talking about, or if any of the ones I took looking down the quarter panel show the faint paint line we were looking at there as well.
Jim,
I'm going through the pictures taken this last time, and did not take a better one of the posi cable - especially the starter end/connection. :brickwall: I thought it was the 69-70 molded end, but now you have me doubting. My docs had the same 2926754 part number, and you're right, it doesn't show up in the parts book. It also shows that for 1969 the positive cable was routed on top of the brake lines, not tucked behind it... that was a '70 thing. Simple to change that out.
Thanks for the info on heater hoses, I'll try to confirm all that stuff when the time comes.
Quote from: moparstuart on February 03, 2010, 07:54:15 PM
whats the projected finish date ? By june I hope ? OH and :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :2thumbs:
Thanks, Stuart! I don't know what the finish date is, as that's a function of when some of the outstanding loose ends can be wrapped up. Hopefully it's soon. I have been planning to hit Branson ever since you and Larry announced the event (even have a brochure sitting on my desk at home from a resort I had planned to use for an extended stay), but there are some potential clouds on the horizon in that regard. I'll know more in a few weeks.
Quote from: 69_500 on February 03, 2010, 08:00:40 PM
Gene the photo of the "YES" that we looked at was on Chris Sauer's old car. I'll see if any of my photo's of the drip rail on the C pillar show the paint line your talking about, or if any of the ones I took looking down the quarter panel show the faint paint line we were looking at there as well.
Thanks, Danny!
Okay here is the best I could do for you on the trim piece Gene. I cropped a photo quite a bit so that i didn't really have to reduce the pixel count so its possible to see the red paint on the chrome where it wasn't masked off totally.
Hey Geno - Here is the hose detail.
Sorry can't get a photo of the quarter panels to show the faint paint line running down them. I'll make sure to get a better photo of that the next time up there.
Another side note here Gene, but I was looking at the photo's I took of the malcom's car and it appears to me that the screws that hold the nose screen on are painted body color on their survivor car. I'll see if I can clean up the photo and resize it and post it as well.
Been working through some of the detail items that are being discussed in the last round of pictures with Vance, and I have a lot better understanding of some things...
First, the screws on the grille screen should not be painted body color. There is a question about whether we should have used some black phosphate screws rather than the chrome ones (which is what Vance has documented on other low-mileage cars). Vance went with what he knew, although we both noted that black phos screws held my grille frame in place. As to why they shouldn't be body color, that's a direct function of how the grille was painted in the first place. The grille mesh and grille frame were painted separate from the nosecone. In fact, the grille mesh and frame were normally painted separately (not as an assembled unit). This is made evident by the body color paint found on my car behind the grille frame itself (I went back and looked at its disassembly pictures, and that is indeed the case) and the body color on the grille mesh behind where the frame would otherwise have masked it. The nosecone was painted without the grille frame/mesh installed, so the screw heads would have had to have been painted separately if they were to be body color. Beyond that, two low-mileage cars Vance has done both had unpainted chrome screws in the grille frame. Plus, if you look at one of the pictures of the cars being loaded onto the car carrier at Creative Industries (the one taken from the front of the car hauler), you can see bright-headed screws holding the grille frame in place.
It's possible that other cars were painted in a different fashion, but Vance's past experience, the pattern evident from my car, and the back-in-the-day photo evidence support the way he's handled this.
Vance also documented the location of the heater hoses on Chris Sauer's Daytona, which were actually just the opposite of what Jim observed on his car. I found "Figure 7" in Section 24-4 of the FSM that Jim alluded to earlier, and understand what he was talking about with the inlet and outlet on the heater core. That doesn't mean it was universally followed, and perhaps that was the reason Chrysler went to the asymmetrical heater hose arrangement starting in 1970. Vance is 100% sure that Chris' car's routing is original, since there was Creative Industries overspray "shadows" on the heater hose that could only have been made if the hoses were in a certain position. If they were the other way, it would have made a different shadowline. Regardless, it is our hope that an original set of heater hoses will replace the set that you see now, and once those arrive we'll follow standard protocol.
Thanks for posting those heater hose pictures, Jim - the car looks great! Danny, I appreciate you resizing/posting the photo of the trim, and for trying to get a clear shot of the paint line. Also, I found some shots from one of the Malcom's cars, but wasn't sure which "survivor" ;) it was.
That's all I have time for at the moment, gotta head home soon to take Jonathan to Upwards basketball practice tonight.
Gene if its a picture I gave you of the Malcom's car it is the one that I think it actually untouched. I didn't take a photo of the others grille screen.
I recall seeing a thin blue color line on my daytona original heater hoses :yesnod: Anyone else seen that line.It was either on one of the 2 heater hoses .Or top radiator hose
I took several shots of the inner fenders and fender supports/brackets, but this too is an area still being detailed. Vance had just recently installed some nice original rubber seals on the inner fenders, and the whole area will be spritzed with undercoating/deadener to replicate the original installation. Vance and I have been kicking around which bolts and clips were in place when the paintwork was done by Creative, since all those parts could potentially have overspray on them -- depending on how shielded they were from the paintgun.
You can also see the front wheel lip moulding in the first picture. This is the original moulding from this car (after being straightened and polished, of course) mounted in the same holes in the trim as before. That bottom screw was randomly located by a Creative Industries worker, whereas all the other holes were pre-punched and mated up to the holes factory-punched in the fender lip by the stamping plant. I don't remember if I have pictures of it or not, but Vance, Danny and I did a fair amount of headscratching on the driver's side front wheel lip moulding as to why it didn't fit the same as this side's moulding did. More on that later.
More inner fender area shots. The last of these shows the rubber splash shield that hasn't been detailed with undercoating & overspray just yet.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 05, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
I took several shots of the inner fenders and fender supports/brackets, but this too is an area still being detailed. Vance had just recently installed some nice original rubber seals on the inner fenders, and the whole area will be spritzed with undercoating/deadener to replicate the original installation. Vance and I have been kicking around which bolts and clips were in place when the paintwork was done by Creative, since all those parts could potentially have overspray on them -- depending on how shielded they were from the paintgun.
You can also see the front wheel lip moulding in the first picture. This is the original moulding from this car (after being straightened and polished, of course) mounted in the same holes in the trim as before. That bottom screw was randomly located by a Creative Industries worker, whereas all the other holes were pre-punched and mated up to the holes factory-punched in the fender lip by the stamping plant. I don't remember if I have pictures of it or not, but Vance, Danny and I did a fair amount of headscratching on the driver's side front wheel lip moulding as to why it didn't fit the same as this side's moulding did. More on that later.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=119764;image)
Ahhhhhhh, that's the tricky one........ I was going to shot undercoating on my Daytona to freshen it up.. Would be a no-brain EXCEPT for the overspray coming in while the front clip was being painted.........
Was there a typical tire blanket put over the front tires when the front clip was repainted or off the car like this when done. The reason I ask is there should be slight signs of body color residue/overspray on the upper/lower control arms, no?
Looks like the upper control arm has some at the mounting points.....
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 11:51:06 AM
Ahhhhhhh, that's the tricky one........ I was going to shot undercoating on my Daytona to freshen it up.. Would be a no-brain EXCEPT for the overspray coming in while the front clip was being painted.........
If your undercoating is still in good shape, try fogging it with black paint. That's what I did earlier on my R/T, and it helped the look of the undercarriage a bunch. It takes some work to mask off the areas you don't want to touch up, but it's worth the effort. As for the front wheelwells, it's your call whether to replicate the overspray look or not. Even though it's "authentic", it doesn't make the car look real swift.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 11:51:06 AM
Was there a typical tire blanket put over the front tires when the front clip was repainted or off the car like this when done. The reason I ask is there should be slight signs of body color residue/overspray on the upper/lower control arms, no?
Looks like the upper control arm has some at the mounting points.....
I would say yes, as it would have been a lot of work to take tires/wheels off and remount. It would have been a WHOLE lot of work to remove paint or overspray from the tires and wheels, so throwing a blanket or something else over each tire would have been a simple precaution to take... similar to what they did with the engine compartment. The tire would have shielded the outer end of the UCA somewhat, and the farther back it went the more suspect it would have been to overspray. Incidentally, my camera and flash made what overspray you see look way more pronounced than it really is. It's there obviously, but not as easy to see in person for whatever reason. Danny saw what I was talking about, although his camera probably took more true-to-life pictures.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 05, 2010, 11:56:15 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 11:51:06 AM
Ahhhhhhh, that's the tricky one........ I was going to shot undercoating on my Daytona to freshen it up.. Would be a no-brain EXCEPT for the overspray coming in while the front clip was being painted.........
If your undercoating is still in good shape, try fogging it with black paint. That's what I did earlier on my R/T, and it helped the look of the undercarriage a bunch. It takes some work to mask off the areas you don't want to touch up, but it's worth the effort. As for the front wheelwells, it's your call whether to replicate the overspray look or not. Even though it's "authentic", it doesn't make the car look real swift.
Well,, Geno, I try and strive for attain a high level of quality. You and Vance, my boy, have set my new standard..... :brickwall:
A thing to note in the first picture is that some of the clips/brackets which are "clean" right now may yet be dusted with overspray. That's why I took this picture, to remind myself to ask about that topic - which we did shortly after I snapped this one.
The second shows the front spindle after Vance removed one of the backing plates. I brought up a different set of backing plates for Vance to choose the best one from and use on this side. It's hard to find these in unpitted shape. Sharp-eyed onlookers may also notice that the lower ball joint isn't correct. We're still waiting on a replacement, and I have a backup plan if that doesn't come through soon. Vance really can't button up the front end until we get some of these parts issues ironed out, but the wheels (no pun intended) are in motion to get all that taken care of.
The third picture shows the front reflector after installation. I don't recall specifically, but I think it may still be getting a bit of overspray around the edge of the lens itself. Don't hold me to that, as I need to follow up.
In the last pic you can see how the stripe was "X"ed and pressed into the rear reflector's quarterpanel indentation. You can still see primer peeking through in the indentation, a remnant from Hamtramck's original paint application.
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 12:04:06 PM
Well,, Geno, I try and strive for attain a high level of quality. You and Vance, my boy, have set my new standard..... :brickwall:
Don't let my misguided attempt to replicate what can never be perfectly replicated (without a time machine) steer you in any particular direction. Fix your car up to make YOU happy, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks or says about it.
These pics show overspray on the front sway bar and other suspension components. This is an example where my camera really made the red stand out, when it honestly doesn't look as pronounced in person.
One thing to point out in the last picture, is that a regular Charger would have had a bolt in that hole to attach the fender. At Hamtramck, that bolt and the tab would have been brushed with a coat of black paint to make it blend in a bit rather than stand out like it does now. Creative Industries had an occasional habit of not replacing this bolt when they installed the new Daytona fender, and they didn't always re-apply any blackout paint on the tab (or bolt, if it did get installed) either. Another observed trait on some cars that will vary from car to car.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 05, 2010, 12:13:01 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 12:04:06 PM
Well,, Geno, I try and strive for attain a high level of quality. You and Vance, my boy, have set my new standard..... :brickwall:
Don't let my misguided attempt to replicate what can never be perfectly replicated (without a time machine) steer you in any particular direction. Fix your car up to make YOU happy, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks or says about it.
I'm not going anywhere where I don't want to....... I strive to get as much correct information as possible, luckily, I have this tread and others to learn from. That's what make ME happy, the challenge... I'm sure there's "Creative Industry Assembly Line" correct, (the good ole Chrysler checklist). But, even within that microcosm of production, there were deviations from one technician to the next and even deviations by the same technician from one day to the next based on production timelines and schedules and whether it was a Monday or Friday...
So, the "improvements" I do are solely based on my desires and the ability within me to do it in my garage.........
Troy
PS: is there a reason the fender bolt-to-inner splash shield isn't installed yet?
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 12:25:32 PM
I'm not going anywhere where I don't want to....... I strive to get as much correct information as possible, luckily, I have this tread and others to learn from. That's what make ME happy, the challenge... I'm sure there's "Creative Industry Assembly Line" correct, (the good ole Chrysler checklist). But, even within that microcosm of production, there were deviations from one technician to the next and even deviations by the same technician from one day to the next based on production timelines and schedules and whether it was a Monday or Friday...
So, the "improvements" I do are solely based on my desires and the ability within me to do it in my garage.........
Troy
:cheers: Sounds good!
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 12:25:32 PM
PS: is there a reason the fender bolt-to-inner splash shield isn't installed yet?
I was in the process of modifying my original post to add that explanation when you posted your comment. I took that picture for the express purpose of pointing out that oddity.
Here are pictures I took of the rocker panel pinch weld blackout treatment. This was not exactly a precision paint operation, and all they tried to make sure of was that the pinch weld got blasted.
One distinction to make in that last photo is that the lower section of the Daytona fender did NOT have the blackout paint, as the body color work was done by Creative. You can see how Vance "masked off" the pinch weld blackout to replicate the look.
Another shot of blackout overspray that made it to underbody components, followed by a wider-perspective shot of the floor pans.
The third picture shows one of the ID paint markings applied to the torsion bar, and the opposite side has two paint daubs.
I took some shots of the transmission, partly to ask for some opinions or input about what to do with it. The transmission is the numbers-matching piece, so it is going back into the car for obvious reasons. Vance originally had cleaned up, filled in and painted the case to mimic an as-cast appearance. It was my decision to ask him to clean the case back off and leave it bare (although you can see it's been wiped down with cosmoline to preserve the metal and keep it from rusting).
You can see from the pictures that by cleaning everything off, it has exposed a fair amount of pitting in the metal. After the car's engine fire in 1977 the car was stored for several years outside. After Davtona bought it, the car was finally brought in out of the elements or I suppose the pitting woud have been worse than what you see now. While the tranny will function fine, there is a dilemma. Should I leave the case bare but pitted, or should the case have all the pits filled in and painted to look like a fresh casting (with a light coating of cosmoline just like it has right now)? Sometimes I out-think myself, and asking Vance to take this case down to bare metal is a classic example.
P.S. Vance knows/told me the shift lever nuts are not correct, they're just temps.
A picture of the gas tank's stamping at the flange/rim... only found on Chrysler-issued parts.
The second picture shows the Dana, which is still being detailed. We have 9 out of the 10 cover bolts (those have a small "E"), and the correct fill plug (has an embossed "W"). Just this week the part number was stenciled on the passenger's side tube. The original stencil marking was still visible when they cleaned the housing off, so it was easy to replicate the size and font exactly.
In the last picture you can see the rear shocks. The ID paint daub was applied to the bottom eyelet prior to installation and got on the bushing, and you can see remnants of the ID paint on the bushing (the paint cracks as the attachment bolt is torqued down).
Some exhaust clamp detail shots here...
The first is the number stamping on the Q-clamps. We've already discussed that Q-clamps were not used universally on '69 cars, but for those who got them, this is the number stamping you'd see.
In the last two, I tried to show the (only very slight) difference between original clamps and the repros offered through Frank Badalson. Frank's clamps are quite good, with the only major difference being that small vestige of a tab still visible - perhaps where the clamps were stamped out in series and broken/sheared off?
The last picture does show that there's a difference in the locknuts between the repro and this particular original clamp (removed from Bill Card's Daytona BTW), but the style of nut used may have differed from timeperiod to timeperiod and from parts vendor to parts vendor. Frank's clamps would definitely stay on my car if I didn't already have a set of original clamps on the way.
These are shots of the oil pan rail and inspection cover, showing the not-so-complete paint coverage we kicked around earlier in the thread.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 05, 2010, 12:55:58 PM
I took some shots of the transmission, partly to ask for some opinions or input about what to do with it. The transmission is the numbers-matching piece, so it is going back into the car for obvious reasons. Vance originally had cleaned up, filled in and painted the case to mimic an as-cast appearance. It was my decision to ask him to clean the case back off and leave it bare (although you can see it's been wiped down with cosmoline to preserve the metal and keep it from rusting).
You can see from the pictures that by cleaning everything off, it has exposed a fair amount of pitting in the metal. After the car's engine fire in 1977 the car was stored for several years outside. After Davtona bought it, the car was finally brought in out of the elements or I suppose the pitting woud have been worse than what you see now. While the tranny will function fine, there is a dilemma. Should I leave the case bare but pitted, or should the case have all the pits filled in and painted to look like a fresh casting (with a light coating of cosmoline just like it has right now)? Sometimes I out-think myself, and asking Vance to take this case down to bare metal is a classic example.
P.S. Vance knows/told me the shift lever nuts are not correct, they're just temps.
my 2 cents are not worth anything but i say leave it original as it is with the pits
Even though the trunk compartment can't be officially completed until the trunk mat arrives, Vance has mocked everything up and located where the jack hold-down clamp stud will go. This time, the hold-down stud will be located so that everything lays flat. That was not the case with where Creative Industries originally located my car's stud. :brickwall:
My apologies again to Chris (Daytona R/T SE) for the dimensions I provided and he initially used, which don't work out so hot... :blush2:
There is also a lot of undercoat/deadener left to be applied in this area and the back end of the car in general - even though this was not a J55 undercoat car, you'd be surprised at how much undercoat the cars actually received back there. Vance may have completed all that work by the time this is written, but it wasn't done yet when I was there.
The second picture is where the ground wire for the console wiring harness attaches, beneath the front seat.
Geno, being that iron casting in it's own right wasn't smooth, I would leave the tranny case the way it is...........
Quote from: moparstuart on February 05, 2010, 01:28:41 PM
my 2 cents are not worth anything but i say leave it original as it is with the pits
Quote from: hemi68charger on February 05, 2010, 01:33:45 PM
Geno, being that iron casting in it's own right wasn't smooth, I would leave the tranny case the way it is...........
OK, two votes for bare/pitted... duly noted
:cheers:
This is an original transmission mount/isolator nut (mine was still with the crossmember, so it could be the one from my car after being cleaned up - I didn't ask), where you can see the red anodizing or coloring still showing through pretty well.
The last two pictures are other shots I took of the nut Vance installed.
The brake backing plates have been left bare, just wiped down with cosmoline. You can see an example of front and back plates treated the way Vance intends to leave them. I know, I know, there are lots of examples of cars with these having been given a black phosphate treatment, and there's nothing wrong with that. Vance has access to a very low-mileage '69 RoadRunner just a few miles from his shop, and its backing plates have no traces of black on them, only a coating very similar to the cosmoline look. One of the NOS parts suppliers brought some good used 1969-dated backing plates by Vance's shop, and a quick washdown revealed - you guessed it - bare, untreated metal.
As pitted up as my original backing plates were, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those were bare pieces as well - and I found no hint of black in the "before" pictures I have of the car.
Here are some comparison photos of two original Dana axle plugs. The reddish one is a vintage '69 piece, although the edges have been worn down a bit. The other is from a '70 E-body. So far, no one knows a whole lot about what "should" be used on what application. Vance is planning to detail that hole the way it should be, but I'm not sure if he intends to use the vintage or reproduction red plug. The search goes on for a nicer original for sure, and that's a 10 second thing to change out if one is eventually found.
I didn't remember if I had ever posted pictures of the Lower Control Arm date codes. The year of manufacture is indicated by the first digit on the upper stud head stamping, in this case a "9" for 1969. The day of the year these were manufactured is always indicated on the lower stud head stamping - "133" and "137" for this pair, which decodes to May 13th and May 17th.
I have forgotten what the second and third digits mean on the upper head stamping, although one of them indicates which shift it was assembled on. The other might mean which production line, but I don't recall which is which. Vance found documents many years ago which explained what the numbers meant and I think he gave me a copy, but I have no clue where it's at right now.
One of the parts that hasn't been refurbished or installed yet is a correct starter. These pictures show that the barrel is dated the 20th week of '69 (May 11-17) which should be when it was assembled, and we think the nosepiece was cast in the third or fourth week of April (depending on how much imagination you use in counting the dots!!).
This should be rebuilt, cleaned up, detailed and installed pretty soon.
To wrap up this batch of pictures, I took a few which show the motor mount attachment bolts and the steering gearbox attament bolts. The last one also shows engine paint overspray on the spark plugs, just as it should be.
That's all I have for now.
Gene, went through the photo's again and tried to post some of the same area's to show differences in lighting and camera's. Cropped the image to show that the overspray isn't so thick in area's, and I shrunk down the photo of the date on the starter to only show the date so you can try to decipher if you want.
:scope: more awesome pictures :dance: :faint: :drool5: wow Geno :2thumbs: :'(
Quote from: 69_500 on February 05, 2010, 06:44:34 PM
Gene, went through the photo's again and tried to post some of the same area's to show differences in lighting and camera's. Cropped the image to show that the overspray isn't so thick in area's, and I shrunk down the photo of the date on the starter to only show the date so you can try to decipher if you want.
Hey Danny - That is the wrong starter..... the pics above of the un-restored one has the correct casting number for a 69 car. We will give you a free pass on that one. ;D
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 05, 2010, 06:56:13 PM
Quote from: 69_500 on February 05, 2010, 06:44:34 PM
Gene, went through the photo's again and tried to post some of the same area's to show differences in lighting and camera's. Cropped the image to show that the overspray isn't so thick in area's, and I shrunk down the photo of the date on the starter to only show the date so you can try to decipher if you want.
Hey Danny - That is the wrong starter..... the pics above of the un-restored one has the correct casting number for a 69 car. We will give you a free pass on that one. ;D
No pass needed feel free to go ahead and :slap: :slap: :slap: me. Back to the photo folder then for the correct starter and see if I can crop that photo. I like staring at pictures of nuts and bolts and date stamps but for some reason my wife is giving me weird looks and rolling her eyes as I keep telling her "Just 1 more minute and I'll be off of the computer".
Oh Yeah - I know those looks....... :lol:
Refering to the starter this from page 42 I knew I remembered reading something about a starter earlier on
Re: **Updated pictures of my Daytona's restoration with November '08 PICS **
« Reply #835 on: December 26, 2008, 03:18:38 PM » Quote Modify
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Looks good . original detail ?That isnt the starter your using is it
Report to moderator 68.44.86.48
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
hemigeno
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'69 HemiCharger R/T 4-speed
Re: **Updated pictures of my Daytona's restoration with November '08 PICS **
« Reply #836 on: December 26, 2008, 04:34:06 PM » Quote
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I think the starter is just a functional one that Vance had laying around. He mentioned that he still needed to send off the date-correct starter and alternator to be rebuilt.
Even though the alternator looks new -- which it is --, it has some issues that need to be addressed in one of the case halves. If you look closely at the stator (the round ring in the center that looks like a bunch of thin plates stacked together), there is a gap at the edge between the stator and one of the case halves. The reason for this gap appears to be that this case half was not drilled/machined to receive the locating pins. When the case was bolted together, this actually caused that case half to develop some very small hairline cracks at the bolt bosses from not being flush with the stator. It's something that should go away if properly repaired, so it will be sent off with the starter. They will disassemble the alternator case, do the necessary machining, clean everything up to show standards, and reassemble the unit. A lot of "NOS" parts were in fact rejects from the supplier or assembly line bins, and this one was probably not used because of that unusual gap. It's the right assembly number and has a useable date code, so it'll be installed no matter what.
Quote from: hemigeno on February 05, 2010, 01:55:51 PM
The brake backing plates have been left bare, just wiped down with cosmoline. You can see an example of front and back plates treated the way Vance intends to leave them. I know, I know, there are lots of examples of cars with these having been given a black phosphate treatment, and there's nothing wrong with that. Vance has access to a very low-mileage '69 RoadRunner just a few miles from his shop, and its backing plates have no traces of black on them, only a coating very similar to the cosmoline look. One of the NOS parts suppliers brought some good used 1969-dated backing plates by Vance's shop, and a quick washdown revealed - you guessed it - bare, untreated metal.
As pitted up as my original backing plates were, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those were bare pieces as well - and I found no hint of black in the "before" pictures I have of the car.
Hey Geno - They were Zinc Phosphate, not black phosphate. Real (I say real because most platers don't do it properly because of environmental reasons) zinc phosphate is a very, very light gray..it has a hint of sparkle to it..oiling it makes it look a ton darker. I can honestly say I have never seen anything but Zinc Phos on backing plates and I think there was a "military" plating spec on it in engineering. It is plated to reduce friction and wear from the moving shoes. Just my 2 centavos.
I think your trans looks fine - the worst area looks like the tailshaft - I would probably put a nicer one on. I was bead-blasting then "Quick-Blacking" the case and tail, then putting on a light coat of MP50 - looked great. I have since found a shop that uses some kind of vibrating shot that makes the cases and brake drums look "As Cast".
I have found a couple of NOS steering boxes - want me to grab one for you?
The car is looking great!
I think this site had alot of charger nos parts
http://www.arizonaparts.com/allparts.htm
Quote from: nascarxx29 on February 05, 2010, 11:41:08 PM
I think this site had alot of charger nos parts
http://www.arizonaparts.com/allparts.htm
A lot of those parts seem pretty cheap :yesnod:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 05, 2010, 11:22:22 PM
Hey Geno - They were Zinc Phosphate, not black phosphate. Real (I say real because most platers don't do it properly because of environmental reasons) zinc phosphate is a very, very light gray..it has a hint of sparkle to it..oiling it makes it look a ton darker.
Jim, you'll have to excuse my poor memory and lack of expertise on plating/coating terminology. I can ask again on the backing plates and whether the "bare" look that Vance remembers is actually a light grey zinc phosphate instead. There might be reason for me to make a quick trip north in a week or so, and it might be possible to go take a peek at the other car he has used as a reference for some details like this. More later.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 05, 2010, 11:22:22 PM
I think your trans looks fine - the worst area looks like the tailshaft - I would probably put a nicer one on. I was bead-blasting then "Quick-Blacking" the case and tail, then putting on a light coat of MP50 - looked great. I have since found a shop that uses some kind of vibrating shot that makes the cases and brake drums look "As Cast".
I've also thought of dragging out the spare '69 A833 I have and taking the tailshaft and cover plate off of it just as you mentioned, and that may yet happen. Vance only did what I asked him to do, and he can't fix what exposure to the elements has ruined.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on February 05, 2010, 11:22:22 PM
I have found a couple of NOS steering boxes - want me to grab one for you?
The car is looking great!
Thanks Jim! As for the steering box, I'll send you a PM later.
:cheers:
Geno,
I am looking for the details on the driveshaft resto. Frankly, with the amount of pages, I have not been able to find it.
What was the stuff you use to remove the rust? Where do you buy it?
The resto looks great! Thanks for posting all the photos and info. I am learning a lot.
John
John,
The driveshaft now on the car is/was an NOS piece and had very little rust -- even surface rust -- which made cleanup a snap. The ORIGINAL driveshaft was a different story... Lots-O-Rust, and trying to refurbish it did not fit the way we've done the rest of the car.
Here's what I can pass along about driveshaft restoration in general:
One of the best products I've come across for rust removal is a product called Evapo-Rust. You can find product information from the manufacturer in this link (http://www.evapo-rust.com/), and I purchased the concentrated product (cheaper shipping that way, of course!) from this company (http://www.nebraskanhotrod.com/).
Taking rust off the driveshaft is one step... however, that usually leaves a fairly pitted-up driveshaft tube since most of us live in semi- to very-humid climates and driveshafts were not plated with phosphate, cadmium, etc. A really good way to remove the rust from a driveshaft is to buy a 6'-8' length of 6" PVC pipe, one end cap, and a 6" cleanout cap (with the removable screw-on cap). Cut the 6" PVC to the length you'd like and glue the end cap and cleanout cap's base to the pipe. When you put the driveshaft in the PVC pipe, you'll have to find a way to wire the driveshaft "down" when the whole thing is standing vertical, as the hollow driveshaft will become buoyant. Fill the PVC tube with Evapo-Rust, screw the cap on, stand it up in the corner of the shop and let it soak for a couple of days. You'll be amazed at what that stuff can do, although for a really pitted part it may require a light brush scrub and a few more days of soak time.
Unless your tube happens to be in phenomenal shape, chances are you'll have a choice to make at that point. Either fill in the tube's pitting and paint with your favorite product to mimic a bare steel look, or - if the tube only has light pitting - polish it to the point the pitting is removed. The latter option won't work if the tube is heavily pitted, as the wall thickness of the tube isn't much to begin with. Thin up the walls too much and put a hot RB engine in front, and you'll have a twisted tube really quickly.
Anyway, if you're not the do-it-yourselfer type or are looking for a concours-level finished product, one name I've heard mentioned over and over by other people as doing an excellent job refurbishing driveshafts is a guy by the name of Pete Bloathner (from Rescue, California I believe). Pete slowly polishes the tube until the pits are gone (this unfortunately almost always removes any remnants of the part number stamping), and replicates all the original bluing and weld marks on the longitudinal part of the tube and end welds where the yokes are affixed. I know other people have really accurate reproduction weld weights (one example is http://www.deadnutson.com ), so I'm sure a driveshaft could be checked for proper balance and adjusted if necessary.
Glad you're enjoying - and benefitting - from the thread, as that makes the time and effort to type all this stuff up a lot more worthwhile.
:cheers:
1st. I say leave the trans case as is. IMO when you have it judged you'll take less of a points hit as is - versus painted
2nd. to those taking notes. with exception to Daytonas ( maybe birds ) No other car will have the rear inner fender splash shields will have any signs of body color on them
Quote from: hemigeno on March 03, 2010, 09:27:37 AM
John,
The driveshaft now on the car is/was an NOS piece and had very little rust -- even surface rust -- which made cleanup a snap. The ORIGINAL driveshaft was a different story... Lots-O-Rust, and trying to refurbish it did not fit the way we've done the rest of the car.
Here's what I can pass along about driveshaft restoration in general:
One of the best products I've come across for rust removal is a product called Evapo-Rust. You can find product information from the manufacturer in this link (http://www.evapo-rust.com/), and I purchased the concentrated product (cheaper shipping that way, of course!) from this company (http://www.nebraskanhotrod.com/).
Taking rust off the driveshaft is one step... however, that usually leaves a fairly pitted-up driveshaft tube since most of us live in semi- to very-humid climates and driveshafts were not plated with phosphate, cadmium, etc. A really good way to remove the rust from a driveshaft is to buy a 6'-8' length of 6" PVC pipe, one end cap, and a 6" cleanout cap (with the removable screw-on cap). Cut the 6" PVC to the length you'd like and glue the end cap and cleanout cap's base to the pipe. When you put the driveshaft in the PVC pipe, you'll have to find a way to wire the driveshaft "down" when the whole thing is standing vertical, as the hollow driveshaft will become buoyant. Fill the PVC tube with Evapo-Rust, screw the cap on, stand it up in the corner of the shop and let it soak for a couple of days. You'll be amazed at what that stuff can do, although for a really pitted part it may require a light brush scrub and a few more days of soak time.
Unless your tube happens to be in phenomenal shape, chances are you'll have a choice to make at that point. Either fill in the tube's pitting and paint with your favorite product to mimic a bare steel look, or - if the tube only has light pitting - polish it to the point the pitting is removed. The latter option won't work if the tube is heavily pitted, as the wall thickness of the tube isn't much to begin with. Thin up the walls too much and put a hot RB engine in front, and you'll have a twisted tube really quickly.
Anyway, if you're not the do-it-yourselfer type or are looking for a concours-level finished product, one name I've heard mentioned over and over by other people as doing an excellent job refurbishing driveshafts is a guy by the name of Pete Bloathner (from Rescue, California I believe). Pete slowly polishes the tube until the pits are gone (this unfortunately almost always removes any remnants of the part number stamping), and replicates all the original bluing and weld marks on the longitudinal part of the tube and end welds where the yokes are affixed. I know other people have really accurate reproduction weld weights (one example is http://www.deadnutson.com ), so I'm sure a driveshaft could be checked for proper balance and adjusted if necessary.
Glad you're enjoying - and benefitting - from the thread, as that makes the time and effort to type all this stuff up a lot more worthwhile.
:cheers:
Geno,
This stuff sounds great! Thanks for the info.
I am planning to use a lot of the ideas/techniques you and Vance are using to complete my concours resto on my 440+6 '70 RR.
I have used MP 50. It works really well for protecting bare parts from rusting. It is available through Mopar dealers.
I love the way you are restoring the Daytona. Great Job!
John
Check your dealer again for MP50 - I heard it is on the endangered species list and is now toast. :o
I bought a case of 12 about a year or so ago so I should be ok for a little while.
MP50 # PN 4549626
http://www.atascosa.com/Partsstock.htm
OK, time for a brief (for me, anyway :P ) update.
I stopped by Vance's shop last Friday and checked on the car's progress. He hasn't been able to do a whole bunch to the car for lack of parts. Some of the parts we're waiting on have been promised to me now for over a year, and still have not materialized. Several of you guys have dealt with similar situations and know the frustration that entails, although there is just not much one can do to help the situation (but it's quite easy to torque some suppliers off so that you'll NEVER get the parts you want).
Overall, the car hasn't changed much since January - but that's not from a lack of desire on our part to get things rolling again (see parts issue above). The suspension really can't be finalized until I get a correct left lower ball joint, one unpitted front brake backing plate, and all eight brake shoes. We HAVE been able to get the brake drums all taken care of, and one of two missing backing plates is now on hand. Beyond that, the Road Wheels are in California now where they'll be separated, straightened & trued, rechromed, and then re-welded. It'll be at least another month (probably closer to two) before it will be resting on its own finished wheels. It's just very slow finding exactly what we're looking for, when you factor in different part variations, condition of the parts, and those infernal date codes. :brickwall: Some issues have simple but unorthodox solutions which may become necessary... I have mint original front backing plates on my R/T which might just get cannibalized. Haven't heard of too many Hemi Chargers being used as parts cars now, have ya?
I'll run through the pictures snapped on Friday, which won't take too long.
One of the issues solved since my January trip is the taillight wiring harness. I had two of these to choose from, neither of which had decent loom material left. A place in California still has a vintage machine which does the loom weaving, and they refurbished one harness using the best components of both cores. It really turned out nice, as you can tell from the pictures.
While they were doing the taillight harness, I had them re-weave the loom on the console wiring harness. Finding a new one of these over the 8-9 years I've been scrounging parts has proven to be an impossible task, but you couldn't tell this refurbished piece from a new one after they got done (except for maybe a part number label). It's all original/vintage except for the loom strands themselves.
Troy's (AB Troy, that is) handiwork is shown in the first picture. He loaned me the part number stamp for the heater box. I'm still waiting on an OEM glovebox to materialize, although a reproduction box is sitting on the shelf in case that doesn't show up.
Carpet hasn't been installed, because it isn't at Vance's shop just yet. We had been told an original rug was available, but when it showed up it was not only the wrong application (A-body instead of B-body), it was starting to decay to the point tufts of carpet were pulling loose from the backing when you ran your hand across it. Not good. Unless a better original carpet shows up soon (and I have a potential lead on that too), we'll use one from Dave Walden (ECS Automotive). ECS has been out of stock for a while though, with their move to new digs.
The headliner and headliner insulation was installed since last visit, which spruces things up a bit. Since early 2009 or so, Legendary Interiors has been offering a correct pattern headliner material which is (from what I can see) identical to the original pattern. It only costs just a little more than their GM-pattern material headliners, and for the life of me I can't understand why they didn't do this years ago.
One revolting development that happened related to the headliner installation. If you remember, a few months back I was able to get the original package tray from DC.com member davtona, the car's previous owner. Vance and I were hoping to save that package tray, but it was fairly scratched up and we both had our doubts. Well, one of the things they had hoped to do with the package tray was to install it so they'd know where to cut off the extra headliner material. Unfortunately, as they were trying to bend the headliner around the bottleneck created by the original Charger window opening, the headliner started to crack. By the time they could get it out from where it was wedged in, a corner was now missing.
While I'm disappointed that the original package tray is now not useable (unless someone knows where to go or how to repair such a thing as this), I had already braced myself for the likely need to get a different piece due to the heavy scratching it had anyway. Doesn't do any good to worry about it now, although I will keep the pieces and would consider having it repaired if/when a repair solution presented itself. A reproduction tray is now on order through Legendary, but it won't likely arrive until mid/late April since they don't stock those.
I took some shots of a few rubber components. First is the radiator overflow tube. Installed on the car is the currently available reproduction material. I laid an original tube next to it so you could see the difference in ribbing. Not horribly different, but we'll swap the repro out for this original piece anyway.
The second pic shows the vacuum lines going to the nosecone. I cannot thank Ken P. enough for helping me out here... Even though I still had my original nosecone wiring harness and hoses, when the engine side of the harness was disconnected (it was crispy due to the engine fire), the straight connectors were discarded with the crispy hoses. Thanks again, Ken! :cheers:
The last two pictures are of the lower radiator hose. I had found/bought an assembly-line upper hose, but the lower hose has been a lot tougher to find. Vance had a take-off hose that he provided for the project, and the only thing "wrong" with it was that the hose had been clamped with worm-drive clamps at one time. Those leave a distinct mark on the ends, but I'm really happy with how the marks have faded. Can't hardly see them in these pictures at all, and I'm hoping that they'll fade away even more as time goes along.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 24, 2010, 06:05:18 PM
Troy's (AB Troy, that is) handiwork is shown in the first picture. He loaned me the part number stamp for the heater box. I'm still waiting on an OEM glovebox to materialize, although a reproduction box is sitting on the shelf in case that doesn't show up.
Sweet !!!!! Man oh man !!! Geno,, Impressed every moment looking at every picture..
AB.
These two pictures show the original hood seal Vance provided. I had found one years ago, but didn't look at it closely enough. When Vance went to install it, the silly thing had been gnawed on by a mouse or something else. The missing chunk wouldn't have looked too good, but this one will work fine.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 24, 2010, 06:26:09 PM
[Sweet !!!!! Man oh man !!! Geno,, Impressed every moment looking at every picture..
Thanks, Troy - and thanks again for loaning me the stamp. I got it back from Vance, and will send it back shortly.
One last set of pictures for now...
On a previous trip, Danny and I noticed how the driver's side wheel opening moulding didn't fit correctly - and discovered that the fender had its original/untouched holes punched incorrectly. It took some doing, but the holes have all been patched and correctly located so that the moulding now fits/sits the way it should. Nearly every car with original mouldings that I've seen had ill-fitting and different "length" mouldings, and this car is no different.
I also talked with Vance about the missing fender brace bolt. Vance has seen original cars which were missing this bolt, and he had restored the car as if Creative Industries had neglected to install these. While that is always a possible oversight and not uncommon, I have pictures of my car before its restoration which shows the bolts were installed on this particular car. He'll go ahead and put them in, but I suppose they should be considered "optional" on a Daytona.
Doc has the bolts - Gonna check Disco...
Hey Gene not sure if you noticed or not but the last Daytona we looked at had the bolts in the front fenders as well.
Hey What's up with trans cooler line fitting?
Not trying to bust ya Gene,just curious if there are swapped out for a blockout plug.
that thing is amazing !!the detail :yesnod: :drool5: shame about the original package tray :'( , thanks for posting the pictures & update Geno :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 24, 2010, 05:49:42 PM
OK, time for a brief (for me, anyway :P ) update.
I stopped by Vance's shop last Friday and checked on the car's progress. He hasn't been able to do a whole bunch to the car for lack of parts. Some of the parts we're waiting on have been promised to me now for over a year, and still have not materialized. Several of you guys have dealt with similar situations and know the frustration that entails, although there is just not much one can do to help the situation (but it's quite easy to torque some suppliers off so that you'll NEVER get the parts you want).
Overall, the car hasn't changed much since January - but that's not from a lack of desire on our part to get things rolling again (see parts issue above). The suspension really can't be finalized until I get a correct left lower ball joint, one unpitted front brake backing plate, and all eight brake shoes. We HAVE been able to get the brake drums all taken care of, and one of two missing backing plates is now on hand. Beyond that, the Road Wheels are in California now where they'll be separated, straightened & trued, rechromed, and then re-welded. It'll be at least another month (probably closer to two) before it will be resting on its own finished wheels. It's just very slow finding exactly what we're looking for, when you factor in different part variations, condition of the parts, and those infernal date codes. :brickwall: Some issues have simple but unorthodox solutions which may become necessary... I have mint original front backing plates on my R/T which might just get cannibalized. Haven't heard of too many Hemi Chargers being used as parts cars now, have ya?
I'll run through the pictures snapped on Friday, which won't take too long.
Geno,
I have an NOS left lower ball joint part number 2808487 and a set of NOS front 11 X 3 brake shoes part number 4176762 that might help? I will attach pictures. I bought 2 sets of 11 X 3"s before I realized the rear's were 2 1/2's!
Let me know! John
Quote from: Mopar John on March 25, 2010, 08:53:41 AM
I have an NOS left lower ball joint part number 2808487 and a set of NOS front 11 X 3 brake shoes part number 4176762 that might help? I will attach pictures. I bought 2 sets of 11 X 3"s before I realized the rear's were 2 1/2's!
Let me know! John
John,
THANK YOU for the offer!! I had purchased a very similar ball joint (actually a pair of them) to the one you show a couple years ago. I got lucky in that the right one had "correct" casting lines and overall shape. My left piece is just a little off in how it is shaped from the originals. The manufacturer either changed the casting mold later on, or these are perhaps from a different OEM supplier to Chrysler even though they're still NOS. Of course, it seems that the shape of the part changed shortly after our cars were built, so it has proven quite difficult to find a ball joint from that specific ('68-69) period. The pictures of the parts below show the left ball joint I purchased, and a picture of one taken from an untouched Daytona. Not much difference, but that's what I'm chasing.
The brake pads are a similar topic. Bill Allphin supplied me with a set of Chrysler shoes a while back, and although they would work good as service replacements (and they're still on the shelf for that explicit purpose -- thanks again, Bill!!), we're still on the lookout for original shoes... either vintage new or original unpitted shoes that can be relined. I'll take a closer look at the pictures you posted and compare them to other photos I have (don't have time to do so right now) just in case those are vintage parts which were reboxed with the later/superseded part number. Thanks again for thinking of me!
Quote from: tan top on March 25, 2010, 03:57:44 AM
that thing is amazing !!the detail :yesnod: :drool5: shame about the original package tray :'( , thanks for posting the pictures & update Geno :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Thanks, TT!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 24, 2010, 08:09:41 PM
Doc has the bolts - Gonna check Disco...
Hmm... that picture looks awfully familiar ;) I'll save you the trouble of checking Disco - see picture below:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 10:05:01 AM
Quote from: tan top on March 25, 2010, 03:57:44 AM
that thing is amazing !!the detail :yesnod: :drool5: shame about the original package tray :'( , thanks for posting the pictures & update Geno :2thumbs: :popcrn:
Thanks, TT!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 24, 2010, 08:09:41 PM
Doc has the bolts - Gonna check Disco...
Hmm... that picture looks awfully familiar ;) I'll save you the trouble of checking Disco - see picture below:
It should - You took it :lol: Ooooops - I forgot - I'm not speaking to you. :D
There was a guy I got nos shoes and master cylinder and wheel cylinders from I recall craig the brake guru from NY might still have his number.This vendor does mopar nats and various meets and is known for his NOS brake parts . 516-485-1935
Hey Geno, have you gotten to the point yet where you wished you would have just bought one already done?.. :icon_smile_big: I think every man goes thru that in his mind during a restoration..
Quote from: PocketThunder on March 25, 2010, 10:31:00 AM
Hey Geno, have you gotten to the point yet where you wished you would have just bought one already done?.. :icon_smile_big: I think every man goes thru that in his mind during a restoration..
I know I did............................................................................................. and then,,,, the rest of the story; I traded........ done.
AB
1930 - 1976 Mopar: brakes, asbestos shoes, master & wheel cylinders, drums & rotors, brake hoses, bearings & seals, emerg brake cables; thru '62, "A", "B","E", and "C", '63 - '76. Call Craig 516 - 485 - 1935 (Long Island, NY)
Quote from: UFO on March 24, 2010, 09:13:19 PM
Hey What's up with trans cooler line fitting?
Not trying to bust ya Gene,just curious if there are swapped out for a blockout plug.
Not a bad question, Brian... The radiator we used is almost certainly the original. That conclusion was drawn in part due to the date code stamped on the support bracket, but also due to the melted plastic from the shroud still left on the supports. It was without a doubt the radiator in the car back in 1977 when it had the engine fire, and it had those fittings inserted in the lower tank back then. We left them alone, although I know the blockout plugs you're speaking of. AFAIK, internal coils on the lower tanks for transmission coolers were installed on all radiators regardless of transmission option. 055 radiators were used in automatic cars (e.g. 383 & 440 auto cars with AC but without a performance axle package). Depending on whether the fittings were installed before or after the radiator was installed on the yoke, a mistake such as this could have happened. It could be that a 055 radiator with pre-installed 118749 cooler fittings was installed in a manual transmission car, whether on accident or whether due to a parts shortage, who knows. If the fittings were installed in the radiator after installation, the worker who did this must not have been paying much attention.
Quote from: PocketThunder on March 25, 2010, 10:31:00 AM
Hey Geno, have you gotten to the point yet where you wished you would have just bought one already done?.. :icon_smile_big: I think every man goes thru that in his mind during a restoration..
Passed that point a long time back... :lol:
However, I will say there is a certain sense of satisfaction having gone through the process. Same thing with my house. Being a carpenter by trade, I really wanted to build my own house... which I did... and ultimately paid way more than it would have cost someone else to build it, but I got it done exactly the way I wanted. Like everything else, it's a tradeoff.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:15:05 AM
It should - You took it :lol: Ooooops - I forgot - I'm not speaking to you. :D
Uh -oh... what did I do now? I promise I won't refer to you as DB anymore :P
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:15:05 AM
It should - You took it :lol: Ooooops - I forgot - I'm not speaking to you. :D
Uh -oh... what did I do now? I promise I won't refer to you as DB anymore :P
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805) :slap: :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:51:12 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:15:05 AM
It should - You took it :lol: Ooooops - I forgot - I'm not speaking to you. :D
Uh -oh... what did I do now? I promise I won't refer to you as DB anymore :P
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805) :slap: :lol:
OOPS... :misbehaving:
That's what I get for staying out of the Off Topic section too long. Sorry 'bout that, my Canadian bud!
Quote from: hemigeno on March 24, 2010, 06:25:39 PM
The second pic shows the vacuum lines going to the nosecone. I cannot thank Ken P. enough for helping me out here... Even though I still had my original nosecone wiring harness and hoses, when the engine side of the harness was disconnected (it was crispy due to the engine fire), the straight connectors were discarded with the crispy hoses. Thanks again, Ken! :cheers:
Everyone else just calls me a PACK RAT ! Glad I could help. Ken
Ken :2thumbs: :2thumbs: Firstly thanks for the CD. And were all kind of part hoarders like those people on TLC who never through anything thing out.I got original parts stockpiled from 30 years ago a fellow pack rat
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 11:07:30 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:51:12 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 10:15:05 AM
It should - You took it :lol: Ooooops - I forgot - I'm not speaking to you. :D
Uh -oh... what did I do now? I promise I won't refer to you as DB anymore :P
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805 (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68150.msg765805.html#msg765805) :slap: :lol:
OOPS... :misbehaving:
That's what I get for staying out of the Off Topic section too long. Sorry 'bout that, my Canadian bud!
No Problem Geno - I'll get over it someday. :lol:
"20 paragraphs about the washer on a K-Frame" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: HAHAHAHA that was funny because its true.. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: PocketThunder on March 25, 2010, 05:20:41 PM
"20 paragraphs about the washer on a K-Frame" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: HAHAHAHA that was funny because its true.. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
I resemble that remark :icon_smile_blackeye: :lol:
I was embellishing to get a reaction. We all know you could wrap up a K-Frame bolt washer discussion in ten paragraphs! :lol:
It's all good my Amigo! :2thumbs: :cheers:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
We all know you could wrap up a K-Frame bolt washer discussion in ten paragraphs!
... only if I have a couple pictures and a graph or two to go along with the discourse...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 25, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
It's all good my young Amigo! :2thumbs: :cheers:
There, fixed it for ya :poke: :lol:
:lol:
Good one!
The sad thing is - I could talk about a k-frame bolt for 30 minutes - better to deflect! :D
I learned from the best... :bow:
Quote from: hemigeno on March 25, 2010, 06:21:29 PM
I learned from the best... :bow:
Who?
Now back to our regularly scheduled show.
Car is looking great Gene. I am having the same problems as you on parts - No replies from the Carat Shop!
Hey Abbott !!!!!!!!!! :lol:
What only 30 minutes on a washer? I was going to say I think that Gene can stare at one for longer than that. I mean we did spend 1 1/2 hours just looking at the bearing on a jack at Carlisle 2 years ago. It was long enough that the owner of the car was getting a good chuckle out of it. He even commented that we had spent more time looking at and taking pictures of a part on the jack than the rest of the people had spent looking at his entire car as they walked by.
Geno, I had the pleasure of looking at your car a few times in the past couple of months and wanted to say it looks great, as you know a restoration like this takes as much or more patients than cash. your perseverance shows you as a real car fanatic that is not just in it for a return, sharing your resto pics and Vance's techniques with everybody is testimony to your dedication to the cars. unfortunately alot of people won't share that type of information. my brother and I own the sublime six pack Cuda in the background of a couple of your photo's at Vance's shop, you could not have picked a better guy to bring your car back to it's original condition, Vance possesses alot of old school talent and determination to do the job. We are in the middle of a restoration of an A-12 car and his knowledge of these cars is vast and he is always willing to give a pointer if needed. I know your original time of resto had gotten blown out but restoring a car to the level he has brought yours can NOT be done in 8 months. The car looks fantastic and I look forward to seeing it completed, and being I live 45 miles away, I most certainly will. Rich
Rich,
Thanks for the kind words about the car, and about the collective efforts put into this thread. I don't know if it's even possible to convey every little nuance and detail of any car restoration, much less a concours-style resto. As far as Vance goes, he has been a learning resource for me as much as a craftsman restoring my car. Most times, I can hardly wait to post an update, as the details about how these cars were made that I've absorbed from talking with him are absolutely fascinating to me. It's particularly gratifying to know that others have enjoyed going through this process as well. As far as the scheduled completion goes, I had frequently told Vance that it was my desire to take our time completing the car - with the goal being to do the best possible restoration with the best parts we could find. Striving for some artificially-imposed deadline (even the '09 Talladega show I had hoped to attend for many years) would only end up hurting the finished product. Vance has been limited by the initial condition of my car and it's components/parts, as well as my inability to get him the parts he needs in a timely fashion. Since the hold-up is of my own creation, I'm willing to be as patient as it takes to meet the aforementioned goal. Thanks again for your comments :cheers:
Incidentally, is there a thread of your A12 restoration on the A12 forum or Moparts? I have a GREAT amount of respect for the 6-pack guys, as their collective fanatacism and attention to detail has been the source of much inspiration on my project.
For those looking for the next installment/update to this thread, I had planned on being in Michigan yesterday (Friday) to check on the car and drop off some additional stuff. We had also arranged for a few goodies to be delivered to Vance's shop which will hopefully get the ball rolling again in a big way. I called off the trip after learning on Wednesday afternoon that my Father-In-Law passed away unexpectedly. That re-arranged my schedule/priorities, as it should. I'll try to get up there soon, but my enthusiasm for hobby things has temporarily waned a bit under the circumstances.
Sorry about your Father in law Geno.
I hope your wife, kids & family are doing alright.
These hunks of iron that are worshiped by lots of us but don't mean squat when it comes to family. No time is a good time, hope he had a wonderful life & didn't suffer.
Take care man.
oh no sorry to hear about your farther in law Geno
Sorry to hear about your family's loss Geno...... Puts everything in perspective. God Bless him and may He look over your wife and her family....
Troy
Sorry to hear about the loss of your Father-in-law Geno. The good thing about cars is that they are very patient,when you are ready The Daytona will be too. Take good care or your family and yourself.
My condolences Geno
Sorry for your loss Geno.
Sorry to hear about your father in law.
Sorry to hear the news Gene. Hope the rest of the family is doing well, and that you guys continue to lean on God for wisdom and comfort.
Gene,
My condolences to your wife and family, we lost my father in law last spring. And your right, it will and should change anyones perspective on life and just how precious life really is. It isnt easy at 1st, just tell her to cherish the memories good and bad and it does get easier with time.
Bill Allphin
very sorry to hear
Sorry to hear of the loss of your father-in-law...
Hey Geno, very sorry to hear of your loss. God Bless you and your family in this difficult time. Please take care.
Steve
Gene, Very sorry to hear of your familys loss.
Dave
Gene - Sorry to hear about your loss. Been dealing with the same thing here as well. Stay strong for your wife and the family.
Sorry to hear of your loss
Man, thank you all for your well-wishes. It means a lot to me... It's awesome to know there are such great friends on here, and my wife and I are definitely focusing our attention on the right things - God and family. We're not the only ones to have lost a parent of course, and 3-1/2 years ago (coincidentally enough, right before this Daytona's restoration started) we lost my mom. It's just another reminder about the brevity of life and what's really important.
Thanks again,
Gene & Beth
Geno & Beth,
Sorry to hear about your loss!! It's never easy but the UNEXPECTED is worse!
John Borzych
Geno, I am very sorry to here about your father in law, there will be plenty of time to talk cars after some heeling time. take care. Rich
Geno, sorry to here of your loss. My families prayers are with you.
Sorry about the father in law. :engel016:
My condolence's to you and your familiy. Take care of the important things in life and the car will be there waiting for you when you are ready.
Geno,
I just catching up, sorry to hear of your loss
Prayers sent!
Thanks again for the kind comments and well-wishes for my wife/family and I. She's handling things quite well I must say, although I know firsthand that losses like this never totally fade away. We're slowly getting back to the "new normal".
A little while ago I missed a day of work and made a quick trip up to Michigan, mostly to deliver a few things. Not much had changed since the last round of pictures, so I actually only took two pics of the car - one of which was an engine shot so Jim/maxwellwedge could see we've corrected the kickdown linkage callout on the valve cover. :P
Just a couple days later, some cool parts finally showed up at Vance's shop which will allow him to button up the back end of the car. We're still waiting on a few more major items so it's not like the car can be wrapped up just yet. Hopefully some tangible progress will be made soon though.
On Friday the 16th, I took nearly two complete sets of glass to ECS Automotive's shop (Dave Walden) in Ellisville, MO - only missing one door glass and the windshields from having two of everything. Dave is a fantastic guy, and using the term "passionate" to describe Dave is like using the adjective "wet" to describe the ocean. He's the ultimate automotive fanatic, and is really going to help out with some things. Among other things, his guys are going to very carefully and uniformly polish the glass to remove the hazing and scratching from the pieces, with the goal being to remove as many of the scratches - even the deeper ones - as possible without causing any distortion or waviness. By bringing two sets (especially two back glass pieces) we can feel a little more comfortable pushing the envelope, as I suggested that we try to repair the worst of the two back windows "just in case" it doesn't work out like we hope. In that event I would have the better of the two to just polish up normally and then reinstall. Dave and I are still discussing the possibility of repairing the package tray where the corner was broken during a test-fitting session. That would include repairing the texture of the pressboard where it had been scratched up a little. I already have a Legendary repro tray sitting on the shelf to use if we cannot repair the original, but I'd rather stick with OEM wherever possible. I also talked with Dave about a few other items/products he's developed from his other projects which will hopefully make this particular project even better than it already is. More on that subject later...
Quote from: hemigeno on April 26, 2010, 07:11:53 PM
A little while ago I missed a day of work and made a quick trip up to Michigan, mostly to deliver a few things. Not much had changed since the last round of pictures, so I actually only took two pics of the car - one of which was an engine shot so Jim/maxwellwedge could see we've corrected the kickdown linkage callout on the valve cover. :P
Olga would be proud! :2thumbs: Looks good!
What an awesome sight....... :2thumbs:
Soooo beautiful :drool5:
Looking great Gene. Glad to see progress is still being made on your car looks a ton better than the first time I saw it. No more Flintstones floorboards. ;)
Hi Lincoln, hope you and your Dad are doing OK these days!
The car does look a lot better than when you first saw it for sure. After things get wrapped up you ought to stop by the shop for another visit.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Yeah we're doing alright. He's a superintendent again. Yeah I plan on stopping by the shop for a ride maybe once its done? I wouldn't mind a ride in the hemi car either.
Gene,
In regards to the bracket clipped over the master cyl re-inforcement plate.
Is it NOS - if so, whats the part number.?
If not NOS what do you do to retain or restore back to the OE galvanized finish?
Quote from: gtx6970 on May 06, 2010, 03:23:01 PM
Gene,
In regards to the bracket clipped over the master cyl re-inforcement plate.
Is it NOS - if so, whats the part number.?
If not NOS what do you do to retain or restore back to the OE galvanized finish?
Good question. Do they all have this bracket or is it a Daytona specific part?
Quote from: roger440 on May 06, 2010, 03:31:16 PM
Good question. Do they all have this bracket or is it a Daytona specific part?
Used at least 66-70 B-bodies. and I've found 2 different lengths used in these years
Quote from: gtx6970 on May 06, 2010, 03:38:48 PM
Quote from: roger440 on May 06, 2010, 03:31:16 PM
Good question. Do they all have this bracket or is it a Daytona specific part?
Used at least 66-70 B-bodies. and I've found 2 different lengths used in these years
Mmmmm, dont suppose you can buy these.
Quote from: gtx6970 on May 06, 2010, 03:23:01 PM
Gene,
In regards to the bracket clipped over the master cyl re-inforcement plate.
Is it NOS - if so, whats the part number.?
If not NOS what do you do to retain or restore back to the OE galvanized finish?
Was the OE finish really galvanized? I thought it was silver zinc. :shruggy:
The one on my car is a nice condition original that has still been replated in silver zinc to make it super-nice. Zinc replating doesn't ruin or destroy the rubber dipping, but hot-dipped galvanizing would for sure (if that's what it was).
I have numerous examples on hand and every one is galvanized . Plus there are 2 different lengths used from 66 to 70 B-body.
the nicest original I have so far that I refuse to let go of just yet
I'll have to ask about the galvanizing thing, not that I don't believe you. The Part Number for the clip is 6015613.
Quote from: hemigeno on May 07, 2010, 07:23:44 PM
I'll have to ask about the galvanizing thing, not that I don't believe you. The Part Number for the clip is 6015613.
Gene,
Where did you come up with a pt # ?
Also, do you show a different pt # for the shorter version.
I pulled every one I could off of junkyard cars a few weeks ago, The issue I ran into is there is no certain bracket used on specific applications.
Meaning I found both lengths on power brake cars as non power brakes cars, same as on power disc brake cars of the same years.
Yet, The only one I've found used on the power brake hemi cars was the short one
Bill,
The part number came straight from the Chrysler engineering graphics. There is only one part number given for 1968, 1969 and 1970 model year cars (certainly could have been used before or after those years too), so if there are different lengths it cannot be explained through any document that I've found. Definitely no qualifiers for cars with different option combinations, and the same clip was shown for /6, LA and B/RB/Hemi powered B-bodies.
My guess - and it's nothing more than a guess - is that the length differences were due to multiple vendors. It's also possible that vendors could have used multiple plating methods as well, although I won't hide behind that sort of "escape clause" in researching the galvanized topic further.
Thanks Gene,
I haven't found that pt # in any parts book from 1966 thru 1970
Odd there would be only one pt # called out . When obviously there were at least these 2 styles used on like years.
I wouldn't doubt there are/were more than one supplier of this thing.
I also have a decent used one from a 71-72 B-body ( also used 70-74 E-bodies) with manual brakes ( same one used on power disc brake Hemi E-bodies) and it's obviously clear zinc , so I wouldn't doubt if 2 different plating choices were used.
comparison pics for the 2 B-body brackets
So as not to muddy this thread any further I'll start a new one
A brief update for those of you who've asked what's going on with the restoration effort lately...
I have wrapped up getting most of the parts together, although there are still some things in the works and some stuff that hasn't been delivered just yet. We've FINALLY been able to get the exhaust components assembled, and the front & rear suspension components are all there at long last as well. I've found different/original rear springs and rear shackles that were not pitted, and I think we've found unpitted tiedown brackets which can be left bare rather than given the faux finish Vance had to do to my originals due to their deep rust pits.
The car still isn't on the tires and wheels it will eventually roll around with, as Stockton Wheel is in the process of straightening and gussying (is that even a word when you're east of the Mississippi?) up a set of date-correct road wheels. I'm also having them make me a set of 14x6 reproduction wheels that'll be shod with repro bias ply tires. For safety's sake, I refuse to drive very far or certainly very fast with 40 year old tires... just because they don't have any miles on them doesn't mean the rubber won't still get hard.
I've been working hard on solving my glass issue for 2-1/2 months now. A local vendor had agreed to give polishing the glass a try, but recently backed off. Although I've lost a ton of time waiting, if they don't feel comfortable working on the glass (especially original Daytona back glass), I'd rather that they didn't. MoparJohn has helped out with the contact info for the guy that did his glass, and I am probably going to go that route. More delays...
The original package tray is not salvageable, but even if the corner hadn't been broken I'm not sure it would have looked real good with the surface scratches in the grain. Those almost certainly couldn't have been removed or hidden. Legendary Interiors has my original at the moment, and they are making a new piece to the exact shape/size/texture as before - and they're even making it in blue just like mine was... Vance will have to dye it black as Creative Industries did with mine (with a few areas of incomplete coverage for effect), so the whole treatment will be complete.
One good thing is that we found a trunk mat and fuel filler tube seal, which means the trunk compartment can be buttoned up soon. That's been a long time coming.
Even though I've been to Vance's shop now twice in the past two months, I have taken very few additional pictures simply because there wasn't much visibly different... last trip up I actually forgot to take my camera too. There just isn't that much change to look at now. Once we get these parts changes/issues settled Vance can go about the business of detailing the undercarriage - including the undercoat treatment. Things are coming together, albeit slowly, and I'm quite comfortable being patient at this stage as long as the finished product gets done right.
More updates soon.
:2thumbs:
You definitely have resilience Geno... I commend you.............
Better to be right the first time than hurry it along and need to redo things later.
wondered whats been happening !!! thanks for the update Geno :2thumbs: looking forward to reading & looking at more into & pictures & stuff :yesnod: :popcrn: :cheers:
Nats appearence maybe? maybe Monster Mopar in St Louis?
If all goes well , I'll be @ Monster Mopar and NOT selling parts
Thanks for the comments, although I think "bull-headed stubbornness" probably applies to me more than nice terms like resilience. :P
Quote from: gtx6970 on June 29, 2010, 08:07:17 PM
Nats appearence maybe? maybe Monster Mopar in St Louis?
If all goes well , I'll be @ Monster Mopar and NOT selling parts
I don't know if the Daytona will be ready by either of those shows, although MMW might be close. The 'Nats is out for sure. Hope to see you in September anyway, either with or without your red trailer.
A few things have been happening on the Daytona recently, but most of the restoration efforts have been focused elsewhere on another venture so there's not too much in the way of visible changes to point out.
Several parts issues have been ironed out in the last couple of months, and the first of these is shown in the following two pictures. This is the galvanized harness loom that Bill A. asked about earlier. Vance had this one in his stuff all along, so it's what we'll use. I have a line on an NOS piece just in case, but this one should still work nicely. Like Bill said, these are hard to find with the galvanizing still intact for whatever reason. Maybe brake fluid works 'em over? Maybe the galvanized coating isn't real thick? :shruggy:
Incidentally, this is a long-style bracket. Vance's observation over the years has been that long brackets were used on manual brake cars, short-style on power brake cars. That makes the most sense, but there are undoubtedly cars which don't follow that pattern - and no one's trying to say it's an absolute concrete rule.
Another thing I've been working on for a while is having a few components sent off for restoration. One of those is the inner door latch mechanisms. Jules the wiperman ( Linky (http://www.julesdaddio.com) ) has my latches all taken apart and ready for refinishing. This is the first time he's seen the bluish-purple and light green dyes used on the springs. Anyone else see those colors on their Daytona or late-built Charger latch mechanisms? I'm thinking it's just a late '69 model year thing like so many other idiosyncrasies, but who knows.
Another item I've been working on now for over 4 months is the restoration of my car's road wheels. These were sent out to Stockton Wheel in California for a makeover back in March. It took several tries to explain what I was looking for by way of the finished product, and finally one of the guys back in the shop started dealing with me rather than the sales counter guys. That's when the lights came on and they figured out that I DID NOT want a triple chrome plated, super-shiny finish... strangely enough, crappy workmanship is the goal on these.
Anyway, when I was at Vance's shop a week ago the prototype wheel had just been delivered. It looks pretty good, and they did an especially nice job of replicating the almost shot-peened look of the originals. What we're still going to work with them on is to re-do the sanding marks evident beneath the crappy chrome on most all untouched wheels. If they don't want to mess with the centers beyond what they've already demonstrated they can do, we will have them prep the wheels for chromework, ship them out to Vance for the sanding marks, and then have the center sections chromed just as you see here. That should replicate the original look perfectly. Once the refurbished centers are remounted by Stockton on the late May '69 painted outer rims, I'll have what amounts to a brand new date-correct set of wheels. Even the back side of the rims turned out pretty nice. We're pretty excited about how these will look once they're all done.
I took the first two pictures as a reminder to myself of another couple of refurbishment projects that will be started soon. In the past, I've debated about what to do with the original numbers-matching transmission case due to the pitting seen in the first picture. Well, we now have a plan...
In factory-stock drag racing circles, one of the very common tricks of the trade is to port out a stock cylinder head casting to whatever port shape the racer feels is best. The smooth surface of the casting is then given an acid treatment over a period of time to replicate an as-cast rough surface, and it generally works well enough that the NHRA tech guys rarely - if ever - catch these cheated up heads even though the ports are looked over pretty good. I had brought up a couple of '69-vintage transmissions for Vance to pull a tailshaft and side cover from to replace my pitted originals. After thinking about it, we decided the core cases will make an excellent test bed for Vance to try grinding the case smooth and replicating the finish. Those parts were never very smooth to begin with, so the bar isn't set very high when it comes to what the finished product will look like. If those efforts are successful, he'll feel confident enough to play around with the car's original transmission with the goal being able to leave it bare metal and in better shape than what you see now.
Speaking of bare metal...
The second picture is of the rear tiedown plates I had removed from another fairly low-mileage car. These have fairly light pitting as you can see, so I'm inclined to use them on the Daytona in bare metal form. It's my opinion that the light pitting seen on these bare parts is better than using the original plates which have been filled and painted with a faux "bare metal look" paint. Originality is king here in my book.
The last two pictures show a miracle metal treatment I had to beg and plead with Dave Walden from ECS Automotive to make up for me. This is a really, really cool product that should be mass produced sometime in the near future, but for the moment he's made a small batch for use on my car. I've asked Vance to give this product a try on a few components that will be left bare. It's applied by heating the part with a heat gun and then wiping on the metal treatment - which resembles a carnuba wax product. Once it dries, you can't tell it's there, but the metal is absolutely waterproof -- water beads up just like it does on a freshly waxed car hood. Assuming that Vance's test is successful (and I've seen other test parts at Dave W.'s shop that look absolutely awesome) he will drop back and give all of my bare metal components this treatment rather than the cosmoline we're using now. It's more work and added expense, but I am confident the end result will be worth the effort. This is something I think will be a neat detail item on this car.
Another item we've made a big improvement on is the rear leaf springs. The original springs were not sagging or worn, but they were pitted quite heavily - especially on the left underneath side. That pitting was the result of the car being stored outside for a few years after its engine fire, where the left side of the car was exposed more than the right due to an overhang.
We pulled another set of leaf springs from a nearby parts car (previously used as a taxicab, if you can believe it) that had little, if any, pitting. They've already been rebuilt/installed and look much better.
I had heard in the past about the different castings used on Charger taillight housings in '69, but hadn't seen a comparison picture. The parts car had a set of early-style housings with longer "shrouds" over each taillamp socket. In the second picture you can see the shorter style found on all late-model-year Daytonas. Just seemed like an interesting detail. Oh, and the length of the shroud determines which plastic taillight cover style you can use, as only an early style deeper cover will work with the longer shrouds. Short-style taillight housings will work with either depth of cover. The only available reproduction (which we hopefully won't need to utilize) is the shallower late style also used in 1970, BTW.
Another part or two showed up at the shop in the past couple of months. These were both at the shop last time I visited in June, but I forgot my camera that trip.
More pics of the same general area
One detail I don't know if I recorded before is the engine's firewall ground cable. This is a good used/original part, and I was trying to document the terminal end and its unique clamp configuration.
The last picture shows another failed attempt to find an original radiator overflow hose. This time, I discovered that 22" radiator overflow hoses are cut shorter than 26" versions... only I didn't realize the hose was from a 22" car until we tried to install it and discovered the shortage. This one was only on loan, so at least it didn't prove to be a costly mistake.
A few more parts that have been added to the pile recently
I think I may have a shot of the shifter mechanism somewhere back in the thread, but since the trans linkage was laid out so neatly I took another picture. This first pic is of an assembly-line Hurst mechanism, and there was apparently some red sticker or decal across the mounting bolt hole that remains visible around the washer. The second picture is of the tooling marks still visible on the shift linkage. '69 apparently used black phosphate on shift rods, which makes them especially susceptible to pitting. Finding an unpitted set of rods that still show details like these tooling marks is fairly rare but not unheard-of.
In the last shot, I snapped a picture of some NOS shackles. These look correct, but one thing seen so far on all the parts-shelf shackles I've found is that the bushings have a smaller diameter shoulder than the assembly-line versions. By shoulder, I am referring to the largest diameter of the bushing right near the metal plates which sandwich the bushing when installed. Why is that important? The biggest reason is that with this smaller shoulder, the springs have juuuuust enough room to wiggle around inside the shackle even after everything is torqued down. Vance showed me a couple of examples of cars where the spring is actually shifted over to one side or the other due to this smaller shoulder size. He measured a loose original bushing floating around in one of his parts boxes, compared it to one of these "NOS" parts, and found that the originals were 0.100" larger at that shoulder. This is the same problem that everyone deals with unless the original bushings are re-used.
great stuff going on Geno :drool5: keep the pictures & info coming :coolgleamA: :drool5: :popcrn:
I was finally able to pick up the moulded carpet set from ECS Automotive and take it up to Vance's. Dave W. hasn't been able to order carpet sets for a long time, and the couple of leads I had on factory stuff did not pan out. I've been on the wait list for a set of carpet since December or January, but no more waiting on that topic anyway. We didn't have time to crack open the box and see what was in there, but so far all the reviews of Dave's carpet sets have been extremely positive.
Dave also cranked out a tinted windshield for me. The original glass was ruined in the engine fire, and I did not want to try and find or install a used windshield in the car, so a repro unit - with a reproduction date-coded etching - is the next best thing. All the rest of the glass should be refurbished original pieces, thanks in part to MoparJohn's assistance with glass polishing.
I snapped a pic or two of my travel companion for this trip, Jonathan, who will be 12 in about 2 weeks. He's really looking forward to us being able to get the Daytona out and about someday, although I did get a shock yesterday when he told me he didn't want to learn to drive a manual transmission car... heresy, I tell ya! :RantExplode:
you have some time to work on him :smilielol: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: great pictures , great shot of your son
Looking good Geno.
I too have that sticker on my 69-X's shifter.....gotta dig up a pic.
I have found quite a few 69 assembly line shifter rods are silver cad. Here is a pic of my X and I have the same ones on my survivor Runner and on Boat-Tona. Not saying Zinc Phos wasn't ever used, just that all I have seen are silver cad. Old Cad will wear and rust and look dark after many years. All the NOS ones I have ever bought were Zinc Phos.
Here is a pic of my ground strap. You can still see remnants of masking tape on the terminal and see how far down they masked this one.
That slot head screw on your voltage regulator need to be a hex head. That fastener and the little clamp it holds down is getting harder to find.
I am digging the NOS in your pics!
Quote from: hemigeno on July 19, 2010, 03:24:45 PM
I think I may have a shot of the shifter mechanism somewhere back in the thread, but since the trans linkage was laid out so neatly I took another picture. This first pic is of an assembly-line Hurst mechanism, and there was apparently some red sticker or decal across the mounting bolt hole that remains visible around the washer. The second picture is of the tooling marks still visible on the shift linkage. '69 apparently used black phosphate on shift rods, which makes them especially susceptible to pitting. Finding an unpitted set of rods that still show details like these tooling marks is fairly rare but not unheard-of.
In the last shot, I snapped a picture of some NOS shackles. These look correct, but one thing seen so far on all the parts-shelf shackles I've found is that the bushings have a smaller diameter shoulder than the assembly-line versions. By shoulder, I am referring to the largest diameter of the bushing right near the metal plates which sandwich the bushing when installed. Why is that important? The biggest reason is that with this smaller shoulder, the springs have juuuuust enough room to wiggle around inside the shackle even after everything is torqued down. Vance showed me a couple of examples of cars where the spring is actually shifted over to one side or the other due to this smaller shoulder size. He measured a loose original bushing floating around in one of his parts boxes, compared it to one of these "NOS" parts, and found that the originals were 0.100" larger at that shoulder. This is the same problem that everyone deals with unless the original bushings are re-used.
Quote from: hemigeno on July 19, 2010, 04:14:49 PM
although I did get a shock yesterday when he told me he didn't want to learn to drive a manual transmission car... heresy, I tell ya! :RantExplode:
If any of my sons told me this, I'd be slapping their mother to find out who REALLY fathered that child! :slap: :icon_smile_wink:
Geno,
Congrats on all the NOS parts added in today's posts! :2thumbs: I am sure glad my Daytona had steel wheels with hubcaps after I see what your going through to make an authentic set! WOW!
Geno.... Thanks for the update... Things are looking grand.......... :2thumbs:
Gene,
I applaud your efforts in a monumental way. So I'm gonna ask, when are you going to start selling copies of the picture CD
ps- the pieces for your 'parts car ' are enroute
Geno, this is undeniably one of if not the greatest documented restos of all time. :2thumbs: I hope I live to see the end results! :angel: Congrats on your efforts and hopefully all the great info in this thread can be edited for use at some give point........ :2thumbs:
:cheers:
Steve
Thanks for the kind comments on the car, everyone. Those of you who know me very well also know I don't get overly excited about too much, but I am definitely ready for this restoration to be over. After all, Jonathan was 8 years old when I dropped the car off :o Steve's comment unfortunately has some merit:
Quote from: XS29J8 on July 20, 2010, 08:31:49 AM
I hope I live to see the end results!
:icon_smile_blackeye:
Even though I'm ready for the end, I am still as determined as ever not to push things along or "cut corners" just to forever wish that I hadn't done so at this late stage. I've never been fixated on getting the car done by a certain date, although missing Talladega last year was as close as I'll get to being disappointed about how long it's taken. Vance has been awesome about patiently waiting for some of these parts supply issues to be settled, and he's been gracious when I've asked him to re-do work that they took great pains to make look just so - only to have to rip it back apart because I've found something that will make it just a little bit better. Even though it's "job security" in one sense, it's still got to be at least a little frustrating... There could be a fair amount of :cussing: going on after I leave his shop sometimes.
Quote from: learical1 on July 19, 2010, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on July 19, 2010, 04:14:49 PM
although I did get a shock yesterday when he told me he didn't want to learn to drive a manual transmission car... heresy, I tell ya! :RantExplode:
If any of my sons told me this, I'd be slapping their mother to find out who REALLY fathered that child! :slap: :icon_smile_wink:
:lol: The poor kid looks too much like me when I was his age to question his heritage, but like Stu said - there's still some time to bring him around.
Quote from: gtx6970 on July 20, 2010, 07:12:17 AM
when are you going to start selling copies of the picture CD
ps- the pieces for your 'parts car ' are enroute
Bill, in my mind a thread like this one does a better job of documenting the car's progress, details and nuances than a picture disc would. While I pore over the pictures like anyone else, the explanations are what make it all come together at least for me. Plus, there are a number of things that have been pointed out by the eagle-eyed experts which have later been changed/documented. It might be hard to follow the discussion about why something either is or is not correct without the narratives & replies. Speaking of which...
Quote from: hemigeno on July 20, 2010, 10:39:57 AM
Bill, in my mind a thread like this one does a better job of documenting the car's progress, details and nuances than a picture disc would. While I pore over the pictures like anyone else, the explanations are what make it all come together at least for me. Plus, there are a number of things that have been pointed out by the eagle-eyed experts which have later been changed/documented. It might be hard to follow the discussion about why something either is or is not correct without the narratives & replies. Speaking of which...
It would be nice to be able to save this complete thread on CD. Heaven forbid anything happen to the forum's database, it would be gone....... :(
Quote from: hemi68charger on July 20, 2010, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on July 20, 2010, 10:39:57 AM
Bill, in my mind a thread like this one does a better job of documenting the car's progress, details and nuances than a picture disc would. While I pore over the pictures like anyone else, the explanations are what make it all come together at least for me. Plus, there are a number of things that have been pointed out by the eagle-eyed experts which have later been changed/documented. It might be hard to follow the discussion about why something either is or is not correct without the narratives & replies. Speaking of which...
It would be nice to be able to save this complete thread on CD. Heaven forbid anything happen to the forum's database, it would be gone....... :(
^ agreed
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
Looking good Geno.
:cheers: There will be a lot of people who deserve an assist for the end result, however it turns out. You'll be high on that list, as I've learned a ton from your willingness to take the time and critique the progress pictures. Thanks, Jim!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
I too have that sticker on my 69-X's shifter.....gotta dig up a pic.
I have found quite a few 69 assembly line shifter rods are silver cad. Here is a pic of my X and I have the same ones on my survivor Runner and on Boat-Tona. Not saying Zinc Phos wasn't ever used, just that all I have seen are silver cad. Old Cad will wear and rust and look dark after many years. All the NOS ones I have ever bought were Zinc Phos.
Sorry if my plating/coating terminology is off, as you've seen numerous mis-quotes from me on stuff like that. The shift rods in your picture look to be in pretty good shape, and not like the ones I've seen on my other trannys. My originals were very crusty but didn't appear to have any signs of silver. I have a couple of other transmission assemblies, one was an untouched unit taken from a St. Louis-built '69 HemiCharger with a January SPD (not my other car, incidentally). Its rods were a little crusty and definitely not silver, but that could have been a timeperiod thing. Vance mentioned before that the rods may have been left bare (explains why the ones I've seen have had as much rust scale), so it's possible that whatever coating is on my current set of rods is technically incorrect. Could also be that Zinc Phos was used to prevent rust on a parts department's shelves?? If we end up having to replate the shift rods in silver cad, one downside is that the tooling marks would have been made after the original coating was applied so some definition would be lost. We'll have to do some more research, as I'm honestly not sure what's "correct" and what's not. Great distinction to make, for sure.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
Here is a pic of my ground strap. You can still see remnants of masking tape on the terminal and see how far down they masked this one.
I'm wondering if the masking detail was one which varied from car to car. If I'm not mistaken, I think Vance had another used/original ground wire hanging on his wall that had similar paint all the way out. It makes perfect sense why they would have masked it off, I guess the question is - was this a universal treatment or not. Either way, it begs the question and I appreciate your pointing out this distinction. Always learning something through this whole process...
Incidentally, is the ground strap connector turned around the opposite way from how mine is currently mounted? :shruggy:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
That slot head screw on your voltage regulator need to be a hex head. That fastener and the little clamp it holds down is getting harder to find.
Thanks for the tip, Jim. I'm assuming the style of the clamp/fastener changed over time? If I'm not mistaken, that was a new VR - but your point is duly noted. After reading your reply, I went out to the shop and found a stash of 9 old VR's I bought on the cheap many years ago to use as cores. Out of those 9, only one of them had the hex head screw and clamp - the rest had a slotted screw. They're both in half-way decent shape, but will need to be replated before using. That'll go on the pile to take up to Vance next time. Excellent detail to point out.
:cheers:
Quote from: Rolling_Thunder on July 20, 2010, 11:12:12 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on July 20, 2010, 10:45:31 AM
It would be nice to be able to save this complete thread on CD. Heaven forbid anything happen to the forum's database, it would be gone....... :(
^ agreed
There might be a way for Troy to work some forum magic here, I dunno.
I been following this thread from the begining.The Daytona looks great and what a learning process on the factory correctness finer detail points has been shared by all on this resto
They have managed to keep best of moparts threads from way back.In their archives as this 71 page all wingcars post from 2003.Still there to study . Lets hope its doable on this informative daytona restoration on here.
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=585449&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
That slot head screw on your voltage regulator need to be a hex head. That fastener and the little clamp it holds down is getting harder to find.
So, is this the fastener and clamp I seek?
Hey Geno
I would stick with those shifter rods - I was just saying all that I looked at (that weren't changed or spray-bomb restored) were silver. I am sure whatever plating met the factories Mil Spec was suitable and did vary.
I would say since the ground strap masking (and any other masking) was done by humans it could vary a heck of a lot.
I can't tell the difference on how the two pics show the cable being installed but I think I can see theat the crimp is outward in both pics.
I have never seen the slot screw on any date coded original to the car VR's but it could have happened. I like the hex/clamp set-up as it makes more engineering sense to me.....kinda the same set-up on the starter relay.
Get a third party to teach your son on manual transmissions. It is too easy to yell at family while teaching. I learned this (painfully) years ago trying to teach my wife. :lol:
Again - Car is looking great! :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on July 20, 2010, 12:05:53 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 19, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
That slot head screw on your voltage regulator need to be a hex head. That fastener and the little clamp it holds down is getting harder to find.
So, is this the fastener and clamp I seek?
Yessir!
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 20, 2010, 11:46:51 AM
I been following this thread from the begining.The Daytona looks great and what a learning process on the factory correctness finer detail points has been shared by all on this resto
Thanks, Dave.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 20, 2010, 12:06:36 PM
Get a third party to teach your son on manual transmissions. It is too easy to yell at family while teaching. I learned this (painfully) years ago trying to teach my wife. :lol:
Wise advice...
I had a very patient grandfather who taught me to drive a stick just after getting my license. He and I were travelling about 4 hours away to a jobsite, and his truck at the time was a little 4cyl. Ford Ranger pickup with a stick. He asked if I knew how to drive a manual transmission, and I told him "No". He said "You will by the time we get there" and tossed me the keys. The clutch and U-Joints on the truck were probably just as glad as I was when we got there, but we made it.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 20, 2010, 12:06:36 PM
I can't tell the difference on how the two pics show the cable being installed but I think I can see theat the crimp is outward in both pics.
It looked like the crimp was inward when I first looked at your pic, which I found curious and is why I made the earlier comment. You're right though.
Thanks again for all the help!
"Get a third party to teach your son on manual transmissions. It is too easy to yell at family while teaching"
I'll do it! Just throw me the keys to that big red car when it's done and I'll teach the boy how to drive a stickshift. We'll only go through a tank or two of fuel, I swear! :2thumbs:
The only thing more fun than driving a wing car is driving someone else's wingcar!
(even if it is Pettybird stuffing me in his B5 car at Wellborn's Place :D)
Quote from: Dave Kanofsky on July 20, 2010, 01:06:47 PM
I'll do it! Just throw me the keys to that big red car when it's done and I'll teach the boy how to drive a stickshift. We'll only go through a tank or two of fuel, I swear! :2thumbs:
How about using the 1992 W350 6x6 dually company truck with worn out seat springs and the factory-optioned "XHD Log Wagon Suspension Package? It has a 5-speed manual, and goes into reverse most of the time!
:P
That sounds like a lot less fun :eek2:
I'm not worried about you, Dave (OK, maybe a little worried), it's young master Jonathan... after all, if he starts out driving a 4 speed 440-powered Daytona, what would he aspire to drive as a "step up" after that?
Just lookin' out for the boy...
Quote from: hemigeno on July 20, 2010, 02:31:42 PM
...after all, if he starts out driving a 4 speed 440-powered Daytona, what would he aspire to drive as a "step up" after that?
This one... it's still for sale too. :yesnod:
Mine will also be 12 in one month, maybe we can give them a group lesson?
Quote from: Aero426 on July 20, 2010, 02:52:48 PM
This one... it's still for sale too. :yesnod:
I'd never have to worry about him sneaking home after curfew, would I?
teach him to drive in a dodge diesel pickup--cant hardly kill the engine.
Brent
Well, it's been a long time since I posted an update, mostly because there hasn't been a whole lot of progress made on the car over the summer. That was a self-inflicted wound, since I had Vance and his guys busy working on the transformation of the R/T from its early-90s pearlescent HemiOrange version back to the original Dark Metallic Green version. In the process of doing so, we solved several problems... one of which was the less-than-perfect condition of the R/T's sheet metal from the dutchman panel back. Of more interest to this thread is that the R/T served as a pretty nice source of unpitted suspension, brake and a few mint interior parts for use on the Daytona. Yes, I used an original 4-speed HemiCharger as a parts car... :icon_smile_big:
I picked up the Charger right before the Monster Mopar show in September (a long story by itself, but this isn't the place to tell it), which freed up Vance to start back on the Daytona. The past month has been spent "de-painting" the undercarriage of the car. This particular Daytona suffered from a fair amount of pitting on many parts, as did lots of other cars from that era. Because I hadn't provided anything different to Vance, the best solution in most instances was to fill in the pits and paint what would otherwise be bare-metal parts/castings with a faux cast/bare finish paint. Most of those were given a coat of cosmoline over the faux paint, to mimic how a bare metal part might have been protected and in part to mask the fact that the part was painted not bare. As time has gone along (and especially after several mint bare parts were sourced, some from the "parts car" and many from Vance's parts sources), it became a goal to drop back to replace or re-finish many of these undercarriage parts.
Just as important in this process as finding/having unpitted parts to work with is having a way to protect the metal from rusting - which is what the original parts did literally from Day One. Enter Dave Walden and ECS Automotive, who recently rolled out a new product called RPM (Really Protects Metal). Dave provided an advance supply of this new product before it was formally introduced, and we've since ordered more as creative ways to use it have emerged. You'll be hearing a lot about this stuff as this update goes along. I have the rest of the pictures resized, and will see how much of the narratives can be written before leaving the office tonight.
Anyway, here are a few pictures of the "parts car" after I dropped it off on Saturday for more work on a few detail items we weren't able to finish up prior to MMW.
One of the areas we spent a lot of time going over was the brake assemblies. As nice as what you see looks, this is still a work in progress. Vance pointed out that the star wheel assemblies (see last picture) were still pitted and need to be replaced. He has a set of originals all set to be sent out for replating. Incidentally, all the star wheel adjusters are right-hand thread on the non-adjustable brakes present on Sales Code S15 XHD suspension cars like Daytonas and C500s.
Most of what you see will stay, but it's still being tweaked a bit here and there.
In the first picture you can see the exhaust hanger bracket added on all dual-exhaust vehicles. This was a bare-steel bracket which we had to replace due to pitting. Hard to find these suckers without a fair complement of pits.
The second picture is of the brake hose support/attachment bracket, also left bare.
I took the third photo to remind myself of a comment Vance had made, about the exhaust hanger attachment bolt being an "H" bolt without a washer. It seems like there should be a washer, and the assembly line drawings call for a washer (P/N 120393, FWIW), but the bracket is often found without anything but the bolt and that's the way Vance did this car.
One of the coolest improvements made to the car recently is in the area of the driveshaft. Even though this was an NOS piece, it was really, really hard to get it to look right without having surface rust form on the shaft almost immediately. Up to this point, Vance solved the problem by using a light coating of cosmoline to let as much of the details show through yet keep it from flash rusting.
After seeing how good the RPM protectant works, they stripped the driveshaft back down to bare metal and applied it rather liberally. They lightly prepped the cast ends to show the tooling marks, and added the burn marks where the welds were. You can not tell that anything was ever applied to the tube at all. Vance also sourced a different collar for the pinion yoke, as the other one was pitted and had been painted to give it the right look. The one on the rear axle now is perfect, and the color difference highlights the fact that it is separate from the cast pinion yoke.
The pictures I took do NOT do this driveshaft justice... it is absolutely awesome, and should never need a bit of work to keep it looking just as fresh as it is now. I am really impressed with how well this RPM stuff works (although I suppose the real test will be seeing how it performs 10+ years from now). DC.com member Davtona tagged along on this trip and I think he was just as blown away as I was with how good this thing looks.
Holy cow that's unbelievable! :cheers: :2thumbs:
I snapped a couple of pictures of the transmission which has - yet again - been refinished. Vance has got to be tired of taking this thing apart and reassembling it. This last rebuild was necessary when I asked him to replace the tailshaft and cover plate with unpitted parts from the parts car, and to strip the cosmoline off the main case. Everything was given a good dousing with RPM, which on really porous areas such as rough castings does soak up enough of the product to make it feel like a very light coat of wax was applied.
There is still some visible pitting on the bottom of the main case, but it is much less noticeable in person that it appears to be in the last picture. Vance considered playing around with some grinding and bead-blasting procedures to remove the pits and (hopefully) give the case a fresh-cast look, but with this being the numbers-matching case it was not worth the risk.
Another thing worth noting here is that you can easily see the distinction in colors between the cast parts. No two cast iron parts will be exactly the same color, and by removing the cosmoline coating it is much easier to see the differences.
Quote from: mikepmcs on October 11, 2010, 05:10:11 PM
Holy cow that's unbelievable! :cheers: :2thumbs:
Thanks Mike!
Sorta following up on the color distinction mentioned in the last reply, I took some pictures of the rear brake drums. Vance has perfected a way to give color distinctions in dissimilar metals, and drums are an area where those distinctions are rather pronounced. In the first two pictures, the center section (which is actually a stamped steel part that is embedded inside the cast iron outer part of the drum) is a lighter color than the outer cast iron portion. The lighting wasn't ideal for my little camera, so it isn't perhaps as visible in these pictures, but you can see the distinction better in person. These drums are actually going on the "parts car", and its rear drums will be removed and swapped out since they are in even better shape than the ones you see here. That explains why you don't see the red paint applied (my Daytona is a W21 Road Wheel car, so it will have red paint brushed on whereas the Hemicar had W25 steel wheels and therefore no drum paint). Vance intends to leave a little of the stamped center section without red paint slathered all on it, just to show this distinction in coloration.
Which brings me to another point... I took the last two pictures to remind me to ask anyone with an original/survivor 1969 W21 (Road Wheel) car to check if the rims of their car's wheels had red paint drips on the inner rim... Vance observed this trait on 1970 Rallye Wheel cars, and we're thinking the same possibility existed on 1969 Road Wheel cars as well - where the paint was applied immediately before the wheels were installed, with the runs in the paint dripping onto the inner rim. Inquiring minds want to know... :scope:
Also visible in the last pictures, you can see the tooling marks still evident on the rim of the brake drum. Very cool detail.
I took a few pictures of suspension components that had been removed, and coated with RPM to make the look perfect without sacrificing durability. Lower ball joints are one of several examples of such.
An exception to the use of RPM lately is the brake shoes. These were originally coated with something akin to shellac, and you can see the yellowish residue in the third picture. Vance's next-door-neighbor recently retired from a company in Grand Rapids that has been a supplier of shoe stampings to the Big Three for many decades including the late '60s. He gave Vance the :2thumbs: on his replicated finish of the shoes, and said he's seen millions of them which looked exactly like these do.
The last picture shows the tooling marks still evident in the brake backing plates. I'll get into the backing plates a bit more in the next reply, but suffice it to say you pretty much can't replicate these marks. A great detail item in my book.
Brake backing plates... where do I begin... I've probably been more of a pain to Vance in this area than most others. First off, it's been a struggle to find unpitted correct/dated backing plates to use. I compounded the difficulty here by pretty much insisting that we take the plates back to bare metal - which exposes most any flaws or pits in the metal stampings. Vance has been telling me for a while now that the originals did have a cosmoline coating of some sort, and the first picture was taken to point out the waxy residue still visible around the crevice between the joined parts. Even though that's the case, I still lean towards leaving the backing plates without a cosmoline coating - and now that we have the RPM product to keep rust away, we could finally do so without ruining mint parts in short order via surface rust.
While Vance may disagree that a bare metal is "more correct" than cosmoline, it is unarguable that these plates turned out awesome after they detailed the weld burn marks and doused them with RPM. I'm very happy with the results, and we can easily add cosmoline later if it's determined that route is the officially-accepted method (whereas it's harder to do the reverse).
Incidentally, Vance took some original plates over to a Grand Haven area shop that does metal plating to see if there was any type of plating where the axle flange bolts, since that area had been completely protected from the elements. It was chemically tested/determined that no plating was done, although they discussed the same cosmoline evidence mentioned earlier.
I still have a few more pictures to post, but will have to wait until tomorrow or later to write up the narratives. Some good stuff yet to come...
Looks fab Geno! All my 69 cars (even my Swinger) have the H head bolts on the hangers as well. They also have plain loose washers as well but I am sure many washers never found their way on a car.
Getting close buddy!! :2thumbs:
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: Hemi car as the parts car :D :D :smilielol: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
Awesome Geno.. :2thumbs:
:scope: :faint: :drool5: wow !! thats awesome !! it deffo should be in a museum !! amazing :yesnod: :drool5: great stuff :2thumbs:
:popcrn:
Wow Gene...totally missed the Hemi car getting redone? last I remember you were selling it??? :slap:
I forgot to post pics of the Hemi car at Monster Mopar...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC04044.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC04042.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03990.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03989.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03977.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03975.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03973.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03885.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03887.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03888.jpg)
Troy
Man... Geno... You don't mess around...... :2thumbs:
Quote from: Troy on October 12, 2010, 08:07:19 PM
I forgot to post pics of the Hemi car at Monster Mopar...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC04044.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC04042.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03990.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03989.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03977.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03975.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03973.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03885.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03887.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/switchstancebrdr/MonsterMopar/2010/DSC03888.jpg)
Troy
:yesnod: :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
Thanks for the comments, guys!
The R/T project sorta mushroomed into more of a restoration project than originally planned, and I didn't announce to very many folks what was happening. It was actually humorous at MMW to have people at the DC.com tent looking all around the show field for my R/T, and it was right in front of them :lol:
As Chris alluded, I had offered the car for sale a couple of times starting last fall, but the results confirmed my suspicions that the market is fairly tepid for hemicars without tons of paperwork and a numbers-matching drivetrain. I'm not complaining, since those factors allowed me to buy the car at a more reasonable price back in the '90s when I was the buyer. After talking things over with a couple of DC.com'ers including pettybird, both Troy's & 1HotDaytona, my initial plan was to repaint the car, freshen up the trim, maybe change out the glass and a few other high-visibility detail items, and re-list the car. That plan went up in smoke when we discovered the extent of the sheet metal work which really needed to be done on the back quarter of the car. I could have ignored that work (the results of the previous owner's 'backyard' restoration effort which left a lot to be desired), done the quickie repaint anyway and tried to sell the car again. However, since the musclecar market wasn't likely to heat up again overnight, I wanted to be prepared for the real possibility the car might stay in my garage. If that's the case, it would bother me to know we didn't fix something "right" when the opportunity was there. Plus, I would have been honor-bound to point out in my advertising what we discovered were the flaws in the sheet metal - and I was already too critical of the car in my earlier ad's descriptions, which hurt those results. Once Vance gets these last few detail items done, I really don't want to work on this car again (restoration work, that is) - I want to drive it all over the place. The additional sheet metal repairs added a couple of months to the timeframe, during which we also compared parts between the Daytona & R/T, keeping the best ones for the 'Tona. The leftovers are still pretty nice (heck, I was going to use them on the Daytona), but it's still an improvement for the more "correct" of the two projects. We also took the time to install a bunch of correct components I had collected over the years but never added, such as a '68-9 hemi oil pan & bellhousing, late '68 dated distributor, and a '67-9 direct-drive starter.
My current plans are to float the car back out for sale in the late winter or early spring, just to see if an interested buyer is out there. I would be surprised if it sells then, because the price I'll need to get (after factoring in the restoration costs) will probably exceed where the market values the car. My bottom-line price isn't horrifically higher than what it might draw, so who knows. It will not be a disappointment if the car doesn't sell, but I've promised my wife that we would at least see what it will bring. Thankfully, I don't "have" to sell it.
I will try to get back to the rest of the Daytona pictures later today... last night was class & homework... :brickwall:
So, How did you slide a green past your wife??
Looks fantastic by my standards but I thought you mentioned she was not on board.
Quote from: UFO on October 13, 2010, 01:05:50 PM
So, How did you slide a green past your wife??
Looks fantastic by my standards but I thought you mentioned she was not on board.
Thanks Brian... Using F8 Green was approved by the Board of Directors only after I made the pitch that the car's potential resale value would be greater when painted it's original color. :P
She's being nice now that it is painted, and says the car looks good. Personally, I like it much better than the orange (I'd still have gladly painted it back V2 if that's what the fender tag said). Most of the onlookers at MMW agreed, but there are a few who said they preferred the quasi-Dukes look. V2 Daytonas don't garner the rash of DoH comments like orange non-aero IIGen Chargers do. We'll see if they continue now that it's green.
i've said it before--there are wing cars, and there are parts cars.
Nice job on both--I'm getting to be a big fan of F8.
I love F8! I wouldn't kick either of your cars out of bed for eating crackers. I like the R/T in either combo I like the green better though,partially because its right. I do think the R/t needs a set of second wheels to switch out once in a while. Like a set of retro tt-d's or similar. Green isn't my favorite color for the monochromatic paint scheme.
Quote from: hemigeno on October 13, 2010, 01:17:10 PM
Quote from: UFO on October 13, 2010, 01:05:50 PM
So, How did you slide a green past your wife??
Looks fantastic by my standards but I thought you mentioned she was not on board.
Thanks Brian... Using F8 Green was approved by the Board of Directors only after I made the pitch that the car's potential resale value would be greater when painted it's original color. :P
She's being nice now that it is painted, and says the car looks good. Personally, I like it much better than the orange (I'd still have gladly painted it back V2 if that's what the fender tag said). Most of the onlookers at MMW agreed, but there are a few who said they preferred the quasi-Dukes look. V2 Daytonas don't garner the rash of DoH comments like orange non-aero IIGen Chargers do. We'll see if they continue now that it's green.
I personally liked the orange better , but this HEMI car really did deserve to be back to its orginal color .
Quote from: pettybird on October 13, 2010, 02:45:25 PM
i've said it before--there are wing cars, and there are parts cars.
:smilielol:
Brian, I have a set of 15x8 Magnums with 255 BFG radials mounted that are used for actual driving/cruising. It makes the car totally different (much better) to drive, rather than having a mind of it's own like with the bias ply redlines. I'll be interested to see what the car looks like once those are mounted.
Awesome Geno! So Vance did the work? Looks great in green....reminds me of Jet's car www.69hemi.com
Good to see you were able to keep her. If you want to sell maybe you can consign to a dealer or maybe B-J?
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on October 13, 2010, 05:40:28 PM
Awesome Geno! So Vance did the work? Looks great in green....reminds me of Jet's car www.69hemi.com
Good to see you were able to keep her. If you want to sell maybe you can consign to a dealer or maybe B-J?
Thanks Chris - and yes, it's quite similar to Jet's car. In fact, I had his website pictures up on the home PC screen several times over the past couple of years trying to explain to the Board of Directors that F8 Green would look great on this R/T too.
Consigning the car somewhere is a real possibility, but where that might be is a big question at the moment. Running it across B-J is not an option due to their no-reserve policy (paying +/- 17% commission to buy the car back would pretty much send the Board into a tizzy... might even get me fired as director of the Musclecar Division). This whole 'for sale' line of thought is more along the lines of checking if someone really wants the car. Guess seeing Troy H. in action for all these years is rubbing off on me :rofl: I'll be a bit surprised if it sells, but who knows?
Quote from: hemigeno on October 13, 2010, 10:08:45 AMAfter talking things over with a couple of DC.com'ers including pettybird, both Troy's & 1HotDaytona, my initial plan was to repaint the car, freshen up the trim, maybe change out the glass and a few other high-visibility detail items, and re-list the car.
What am i, chopped liver? :shruggy:
Quote from: UFO on October 13, 2010, 01:05:50 PM
So, How did you slide a green past your wife??
Looks fantastic by my standards but I thought you mentioned she was not on board.
Ya i'm surprised you got this color change past the BoD.
Paul :cheers:
Quote from: PocketThunder on October 13, 2010, 11:37:34 PM
What am i, chopped liver? :shruggy:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 13, 2010, 10:08:45 AMAfter talking things over with a couple of DC.com'ers including (but not limited to) pettybird, both Troy's, 1HotDaytona, and invaluable input from PocketThunder my initial plan was to repaint the car, freshen up the trim, maybe change out the glass and a few other high-visibility detail items, and re-list the car.
There, fixed it for ya Paul... :lol:
:cheers:
Gene,
The car looked GREAT. :drool5:
And I really like F8 green over the V2 anyway
maybe I'll tell Rick about it today at lunch :scratchchin:
Thanks again,
Bill
Thanks Bill - and thanks for lending me your ear through some of these issues. Say Hi to Rick for me too - and the answer from me is "Yes"... :icon_smile_big:
They have that Manheim Aut exotica here in Stlouis. I believe it is this weekend though. Last year I thought about putting one of my Chargers in the auction when I was trying to sell something to buy the Daytona. I think it was like $300 to put it in another $ 100 if you wanted it to cross the block during prime time and another $100 if you wanted a reserve:shruggy: plus 6% of selling price for no reserve and 10% with a reserve. In the economy I was not going to put either car up at no reserve only to have it sell at 1/2 the value and then have to give back 6% of that :brickwall: If you put a reasonable reserve and it meets it you still are giving 10%. If it doesn't hit the reserve I would be out $500 and be $500 further from the goal of the Daytona ?
I've not heard of or been to the Manheim event - what facility is that held at around town?
My guess is unless I can roll back the calendar to 2005 or 2006, the auction format in general is not the best venue to try and sell -- especially with no reserve. The guy in the Ferrari jacket who's always at Barrett-Jackson probably isn't going to bid on my R/T... There are exceptions to that though, and Bill Allphin's former blue 340 E-Body is a recent example of a car that performed exceptionally well at auction in spite of the market conditions. I'm not enough of a gambler to go that route since there's not (and honestly hasn't been) any sense of urgency to sell. It would suit me just fine to drop the car off over the winter at a consignment shop somewhere for a couple of months, then go pick it back up just in time for spring cruising season. That way, I can submit my report to the Board of Directors showing the attempt was made. :whistling: :angel: :nixon:
I think it is in Manchester???? they have a site I think it is called motoexotica ?? but I think you are right. the only one making any money at an auto auction is the auction house in this climate :Twocents:
If the Board of Directors requires more cost justification as to why to keep the RT. Just explain that this car also performs duty as a taxi cab and a drivers education car at times. :smilielol:
Quote from: Davtona on October 14, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
If the Board of Directors requires more cost justification as to why to keep the RT. Just explain that this car also performs duty as a taxi cab and a drivers education car at times. :smilielol:
:lol: Yep, you know firsthand how that works.
Quote from: hemigeno on October 14, 2010, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: PocketThunder on October 13, 2010, 11:37:34 PM
What am i, chopped liver? :shruggy:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 13, 2010, 10:08:45 AMAfter talking things over with a couple of DC.com'ers including (but not limited to) pettybird, both Troy's, 1HotDaytona, and invaluable input from PocketThunder my initial plan was to repaint the car, freshen up the trim, maybe change out the glass and a few other high-visibility detail items, and re-list the car.
There, fixed it for ya Paul... :lol:
:cheers:
you know what? how come I wasn't consulted as well....sheesh :rotz:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on October 14, 2010, 04:21:57 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on October 14, 2010, 12:05:04 AM
Quote from: PocketThunder on October 13, 2010, 11:37:34 PM
What am i, chopped liver? :shruggy:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 13, 2010, 10:08:45 AMAfter talking things over with a couple of DC.com'ers including (but not limited to) pettybird, both Troy's, 1HotDaytona, and invaluable input from PocketThunder my initial plan was to repaint the car, freshen up the trim, maybe change out the glass and a few other high-visibility detail items, and re-list the car.
There, fixed it for ya Paul... :lol:
:cheers:
you know what? how come I wasn't consulted as well....sheesh :rotz:
I think you're covered in the disclaimer in bold above "
(but not limited to) " :lol: :lol:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on October 14, 2010, 04:21:57 PM
you know what? how come I wasn't consulted as well....sheesh :rotz:
Man, give a guy a break wouldya? :lol:
Quote from: PocketThunder on October 14, 2010, 08:44:37 PM
I think you're covered in the disclaimer in bold above " (but not limited to) " :lol: :lol:
Whodathunk a disclaimer would be needed, much less, STILL not keep me out of trouble (see Chris' reply above).
Speaking of which, I found some others you guys might like here. (http://www.gorskys.com.au/articles/legal-disclaimers-we-really-need.html)
Hey, it's my thread, I can hijack it if I want to, right? Or do I need to add a disclaimer on this reply too?
I will really try to get the rest of the Daytona pictures posted tomorrow. Honest...
OK, back to the (semi) regularly-scheduled Daytona restoration update:
I took some pictures of the steering box and column/shaft as a reminder for a couple of things. First, is that Vance has met a kindred spirit in Rob, the guy who will be polishing the original glass pieces. Sounds like a weird connection, but stay with me for a sec... Vance took the original glass from both the Daytona and R/T over to him a couple of weeks ago, with the intention of saying "Hi" and heading back home. 6 hours later, he finally pulled himself away from Rob's shop. Apparently he's been working on a '68 Coronet R/T (auto with air conditioning and painted roof, a pretty rare ride) since some time in the mid-90s. Rob has painstakingly replicated many little detail items he discovered/documented on his car. The two of them spent hours talking about all these little nuances, including Rob's reproduction driveshafts which look absolutely incredible. If he can perfect the part number and other stampings, he'll be able to churn out a propshaft which is essentially identical to any NOS piece out there including the one on my Daytona. Vance helped him out with ideas on using EvapoRust and this new-found RPM product to eliminate the surface rust which forms almost immediately on the bare steel tubing. Another topic they spent a lot of time talking about was the various aluminum castings found on Mopars of this vintage (alternators, steering boxes, etc). Thus far, about the only way to have a truly correct finish is to find original, unpitted parts. That's hard to do, especially when date codes are factored into the equation. There are shops that can come fairly close, but both Vance and Rob are particular enough that they would prefer to improve on what's otherwise available.
Rob's day job is at an automotive customizing shop near Detroit that is responsible for making all sorts of prototype parts, etc. for the Big 3. His shop worked on the re-issue of the Ford GT-40 prototype, for example. Their work on that project is actually what got him involved in the glass polishing business, but that's another story. The shop where he works has nearly unlimited resources and unique systems/tooling at their disposal to do about anything where it relates to automobiles and their components. This includes plating of metals. Rob is experimenting with various refinishing techniques that will produce an identical finish to a fresh aluminum casting, just like they looked when new. He will be able to refinish alternator cases, carburetor bodies & bases, and... steering boxes. I know I used a lot of runway before this explanation actually took off, but that's the connection between Rob the glass guy and the car's original steering box in the pictures.
Also shown in the pictures - especially the last one - is the steering shaft/coupler. It will be removed, stripped of its faux paint finish, treated with RPM, and reinstalled for an even more correct look than what you see. From this underneath perspective, you can also see some other details such as engine paint on the spark plug bases.
In these pictures, I tried to show some of the other rearward components. Some of these have been addressed, and some have not. The shock mounting plates have been stripped and RPM'd, and they look/feel perfect. The back side of the backing plates and U-Bolts are visible in the second picture, and hopefully they'll look just as pristine many years from now (with no effort to keep rust at bay).
The third picture serves as a reminder to me that the exhaust tip mounting plate (which doubles as the transport tie-down bracket) will need to be replaced with another pair. These look respectably good, but they have been filled & painted and wiped down with a thin layer of cosmoline. In 1969 they would have been left bare from the factory, and that presents a problem - since the back end of the car is a particularly harsh area for corrosion. As a result, nearly every '69 you find (except maybe those in the southwest states) will have at least some pits on their brackets. Luckily, 1970 Chargers had their brackets painted to protect them a little better. Other than paint, the brackets are identical... which means a set of decent '70 exhaust tip hanger brackets is on my list of parts to run down.
In the last picture you can see the installed tailpipes. It was quite a long time before we found a pair of these that matched in coating and condition. I'm wondering about the wisdom of seeing if the inside exhaust surfaces could be Jet-Hot coated (or with some similar hi-temp product). Starting the car up without allowing it to get all the way to operating temperatures will leave condensation in exhaust pipes/components, and guys with complete NOS exhaust systems have seen them rust out rapidly without hardly driving them. Oh, and we are waiting for another set of original exhaust clamps to materialize before changing out the Q-clamps on the exhaust tips.
Here's a question for you detective types with access to a car which has it's original fuel tank:
Comments were made to Vance by someone to the effect that all original fuel tanks had their seams welded at three corners in a "rounded" fashion, and that only the corner they started and stopped the seaming process at would have been "crossed" such as you see in these pictures. This particular tank has part number stampings, original stickers, etc., and looks to have every other trait of a vintage piece, but does not have any rounded corner seams. It looks to me like the welding machine had a stop on it which followed the edge of the metal, which might make following the rounded contour of the tank itself rather difficult, if not impossible.
Any examples of this trait (either way) on other original tanks?
Hey Geno...
Awesome................ I have a question though... The picture of the backing plate, I notice that your rear wheel well doesn't have undercoating and I thought the dipstick tube was routed to the outside of the exhaust manifold :scratchchin:
We received half of the wheel sets for the car a couple months back, which means the car can now be rolled around on something other than borrowed wheels. These are a set of reproduction 14x6 wheels from Stockton Wheel. The chrome is perhaps just a little shinier than the originals were, but they still look great with the repro bias ply redlines. On the back side of the wheel in the second pic, you can see black has been shot just a little bit over the welded seam joining the wheel center to its rim... just like the originals were.
The third pic shows the control arm adjusting bolts and blocks. The bolts were replated and the blocks given the RPM treatment.
That last picture is a connundrum for me, as I've been searching high and low for new latches. Original latches had their star wheels plated with silver cad (or maybe silver zinc, sorry Jim!) with a gold cad plating on much of the outer housing. If you send out a set of latches to be replated, they pretty much have to plate the whole thing in gold cad, since the outer housing is staked to the inner housing which makes disassembly nearly impossible. We thought we had a set of latches found (they don't look used), but the finish on them didn't look too hot. In fact, Vance had a set of used latches pulled from a donor car which looked much better. So, all the resources spent to find the latches might end up not being productive. Story of my life, it seems...
Quote from: hemi68charger on October 15, 2010, 06:29:11 PM
Hey Geno...
Awesome................ I have a question though... The picture of the backing plate, I notice that your rear wheel well doesn't have undercoating and I thought the dipstick tube was routed to the outside of the exhaust manifold :scratchchin:
Troy, good eyes. The car's rear end undercoating hasn't been installed yet. Vance needed to get the fuel filler tube seal situation all squared away before applying the undercoating, and the seal was being installed today (I think). The exhaust will have to come back off for undercoat, but that's not a huge deal. He will need to do the undercoating before mounting the wing braces for good, since those were bolted to the trunk floor after Hamtramck was done - which means no undercoating on the bolt heads or threads/nuts. Same goes for the jack hold down bolt.
As for the dipstick tube, it could technically go either way. There are many examples of outside the exhaust manifold as you've mentioned, but there are also original cars done the opposite way. The A12 guys have had some spirited discussions in the past on this topic if I remember right.
Quote from: hemigeno on October 15, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
...
As for the dipstick tube, it could technically go either way. There are many examples of outside the exhaust manifold as you've mentioned, but there are also original cars done the opposite way. The A12 guys have had some spirited discussions in the past on this topic if I remember right.
Awwww.. Cool. I thought I might be going crazy not knowing something that would have been obvious to me... :icon_smile_big:
Good news on the dipschtick.. I have both routed between my cylinder head and manifold on my Daytona and C500.... Good news for me :boogie:
Speaking of undercoating, I took the first picture to point out something that Vance is planning to fix in the front wheelwell. We didn't have the correct emergency brake cable installed when they did the front wheelwell undercoating, and that cable would have been installed when they did the original u/c at Hamtramck. So, the grommet and perhaps a little of the cable itself should have undercoating present. How much undercoating got on the cable varies wildly from car to car, as some were gooped up qute a bit while others have just a little coverage beyond the grommet. This will require a re-application of some "Creative Industries" body color overspray as well, but none of these are big problems to solve.
The second picture shows the master cylinder studs, and the lowest one has at least some pitting on the head. Vance sourced some unpitted studs, and has replated another set. These had a strike mark (indented on the edge of the head) where the stud was driven into the master cylinder base. He's going to try and replicate the way that struck surface would look, since when you replate the studs those coloration distinctions are lost. Details, details.
The picture of the taillights serves as a reminder to me to discuss getting different foam gaskets. Originals were about 1/2 the thickness of the replacements, which end up getting distorted when the taillights are snugged up. Dave Walden is producing correct open-cell foam gasket sets for elsewhere on B-bodies, and I am hoping he can provide some bulk material from which we can cut out our own gaskets using the originals as a pattern.
The last pic shows the nosecone wiring harness, with its integral "T" anchor. The Charger forward light harnesses (which were modified into Daytona harnesses according to the paperwork) had this "T" anchor still left in place, and I've always wondered if any cars out there had a hole drilled on the Z-brace where this anchor might have been installed.
The first two pictures show an experiment in progress. As mentioned before, Vance has been working on a process that can make cast parts darker than stamped steel parts - even within assemblies like these lower control arms (this isn't from the Daytona, this is a test piece). By having RPM at our disposal, we can drop back and re-do the lower control arms a bit more accurately. Up to this point, my car's LCA's had been covered in cosmoline from top to bottom. Vance's reasoning for this was he did not want the end to rust if it were left bare, and he didn't want to paint part of it with a faux finish and then try to do the cosmoline dip. The arms were originally dunked in a vat of cosmoline up to a point (the depth of which varied depending on how recently the vat had been topped off). There's no consistent line of where the cosmoline ALWAYS came up, but they were not coated all the way. Now, Vance can treat the LCA's to bring out the dissimliar color distinction visible in the first two photos (not to mention the weld burn marks that will be present at the sway bar mounting bracket), coat the LCA's completely with this RPM product to seal everything up permanently, and then dip them in cosmoline up to a line and let them drip down like you see. The finished product will be both durable and correct.
I took the last picture to remind me about getting a section of washer hose for moparjohn. A sad testament to my memory (or lack thereof) is that even though I remembered to take the picture, I promptly forgot to measure out and bring back the hose. I'll try not to forget next time. :slap:
The last picture for this batch is related to a topic I've wrestled with for a while now. Earlier in the thread I pointed out the latch tray mounting bracket which is spot-welded to the radiator support is the original piece. Vance discovered early on during his disassembly work that this bracket was not painted on either the top or bottom sides, which fit the other forensic evidence of missing blackout paint on the inner fender shields or any other location inside the nosecone. We've tried to maintain that distinction - not just to be different (which has never bothered me before), but because that's the way this car was built by Creative.
Unfortunately, the lack of any paint finishes also meant this bracket had a fair amount of pitting. The assumption up until now was that it is better to keep the original piece in place, just fill in the pits and give it the usual faux paint finish to make it appear "bare". I've finally decided it is better to replace this piece with a new one which can properly show the distinction we're trying to make.
As a result of this change, several details can now be brought out... first, when Creative's workers were prepping the lip of the radiator support for spot welds, chances are extremely high they used a grinder to remove paint for a good spot weld. They also, more than likely, left a few grinding wheel marks on the vertical face of the radiator support as they went along. We can do something similar.
The original bracket is still in excellent shape to serve as a pattern for another piece. Vance has access to shearing equipment which can be used to punch out a part in a fashion much like they were done originally. That should give us an exact replica, without any pitting in the metal surface. Treating the part on top & bottom with RPM will keep it looking pristine, and the spot welds can be put back in the same locations as before - complete with very visible burn marks.
I think the end result is worth the effort, but it is a step down from the standpoint of replacing an original part with a reproduction (albeit just a piece of flat metal).
That's all the update photos for the moment. It may be a while longer before more progress is documented due to some upcoming family issues. Slowly but surely things are coming together.
Quote from: hemi68charger on October 15, 2010, 07:09:33 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on October 15, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
...
As for the dipstick tube, it could technically go either way. There are many examples of outside the exhaust manifold as you've mentioned, but there are also original cars done the opposite way. The A12 guys have had some spirited discussions in the past on this topic if I remember right.
Awwww.. Cool. I thought I might be going crazy not knowing something that would have been obvious to me... :icon_smile_big:
Good news on the dipschtick.. I have both routed between my cylinder head and manifold on my Daytona and C500.... Good news for me :boogie:
with the heat I would think you would want it on the outside
Quote from: moparstuart on October 15, 2010, 10:00:55 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on October 15, 2010, 07:09:33 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on October 15, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
...
As for the dipstick tube, it could technically go either way. There are many examples of outside the exhaust manifold as you've mentioned, but there are also original cars done the opposite way. The A12 guys have had some spirited discussions in the past on this topic if I remember right.
Awwww.. Cool. I thought I might be going crazy not knowing something that would have been obvious to me... :icon_smile_big:
Good news on the dipschtick.. I have both routed between my cylinder head and manifold on my Daytona and C500.... Good news for me :boogie:
with the heat I would think you would want it on the outside
Being that the tube isn't painted, it will not burn any paint off and secondly, the tubes are already installed...
What a pleasure to view these pics Gene, thank you! Regarding your fuel tank I just checked mine and the two corners on the passenger side are just like yours, crossed welds (the tank is stored in such a way that I need to move other large items to see the drivers side). I am pretty sure mine is the original tank as the straps were undercoated right over. Interestingly enough, I purchased a replacement tank from Chrysler in around 1984 or so and IT has the welds rounded. Go figure? :shruggy:
Quote from: FJMG on October 16, 2010, 09:29:17 AM
What a pleasure to view these pics Gene, thank you! Regarding your fuel tank I just checked mine and the two corners on the passenger side are just like yours, crossed welds (the tank is stored in such a way that I need to move other large items to see the drivers side). I am pretty sure mine is the original tank as the straps were undercoated right over. Interestingly enough, I purchased a replacement tank from Chrysler in around 1984 or so and IT has the welds rounded. Go figure? :shruggy:
Thanks, Robert - both for the comments and for checking out your original tank for the seam detail. I appreciate you taking the time to do so, and it is interesting to see the differences in what you have. I think there's another NOS tank floating around at Vance's shop with an inkstamped date on it's bottomside from the mid '70s. I'll try to remember to check it out next time up (or ask Vance to do so).
Quote from: hemi68charger on October 16, 2010, 07:47:04 AM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 15, 2010, 10:00:55 PM
with the heat I would think you would want it on the outside
Being that the tube isn't painted, it will not burn any paint off and secondly, the tubes are already installed...
Maybe the concern is about singing your fingers on an exhaust manifold while checking the oil? :shruggy:
Dipstick tube should be on the outside on a 69, tube unpainted, dipstick dipped in black. I have never heard about any controversy on this unless someone (or a few people) had it on the inside (70-up style) incorrectly and felt they needed to argue about it....which is a normal day on Moparts... ;D
Geno - Is your car a factory undercoat car?
On non-undercoat cars the undercoating was pretty well the last thing that was put on (and the pinch weld balack-out if the car originally had it). The cars were fully assembled before it was put on. This explains undercoat on the fuel and brake lines, gas tank, inner fender shields etc.
Geno,
The tank in your car is 100% correct. NOS tanks starting in the early 80's had rounded seams, I have had a bunch over the years. What are Vances thoughts on the bare steering shaft with no black paint?? Frank Badalson says that ALL steering shafts are black...Car looks great!
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 16, 2010, 06:32:30 PM
Dipstick tube should be on the outside on a 69, tube unpainted, dipstick dipped in black. I have never heard about any controversy on this unless someone (or a few people) had it on the inside (70-up style) incorrectly and felt they needed to argue about it....which is a normal day on Moparts... ;D
Geno - Is your car a factory undercoat car?
On non-undercoat cars the undercoating was pretty well the last thing that was put on (and the pinch weld balack-out if the car originally had it). The cars were fully assembled before it was put on. This explains undercoat on the fuel and brake lines, gas tank, inner fender shields etc.
Thanks for the feedback (as usual) Jim! Even if you hadn't mentioned anything regarding the dipstick, I was planning on bringing the topic up to Vance soon. Why? Because I went back and checked the photo of my car from 1977 (after the engine fire) and it shows no dipstick between the valve cover and exhaust manifold. That's an even better reason for having it outside the manifold, but I really appreciate the confirmation of why that's the case (i.e. a 1970+ thing). I'll find the crispy engine picture here in a bit, it's already posted earlier in this thread.
My car isn't a s/c J55 undercoat car. If it was, the restoration might have been done by now -- since it took a long time to fix all the sheet metal pitting on the underneath side from exposure to the elements. IIRC, the exhaust was not installed when undercoat/deadener was applied, but just about everything else, correct? That's why I mentioned needing the fuel filler tank seal installed. Vance was able to put in the OE seal this past week, and most of the other parts refinishing or change-outs have been made with the possible exception of exhaust tip hanger brackets. Whether he waits to do the undercoat until those brackets materialize or not is up to him (assuming those were even installed when the undercoat/deadener was applied).
Quote from: paul jacobs on October 17, 2010, 03:57:11 AM
Geno,
The tank in your car is 100% correct. NOS tanks starting in the early 80's had rounded seams, I have had a bunch over the years. What are Vances thoughts on the bare steering shaft with no black paint?? Frank Badalson says that ALL steering shafts are black...Car looks great!
Paul, thanks for chiming in - I appreciate the compliment, and especially appreciate the input on tank seams! It was great chatting with you and Troy at MMW this year. Thanks for humoring all of my questions and letting me trash through your photo albums. Good times...
I will have to ask about the steering shafts, and will also try to go through a few archive photos myself.
Thanks again - and I intend to contact you soon about the hairbrained idea of mine on battery cables we discussed last month.
Nice workmanship and incredible detail :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: My daytona dipstick was outside the exhaust manifold
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/motor69daytona.jpg)
Quote from: nascarxx29 on October 17, 2010, 10:41:13 PM
Nice workmanship and incredible detail :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: My daytona dipstick was outside the exhaust manifold
Thanks, Dave!
The pic below from 1980 shows no dipstick either.
A12 New - No tube on the inside
Here's another A12 reference pic, you can see the dipstick/tube at the very bottom outside the manifold. I have several other original pictures showing the same trait. The other pictures I have with inside-the-manifold handles might be restored cars whose handle position was relocated, not sure.
Vance did have the dipstick located outside the manifold on this engine. At some point prior to dyno'ing the engine it was moved inside the manifold (the pictures at the dyno shop show it inside the manifold). No big deal, this is an easy change to make.
First picture taken December, 2008
Second picture taken July, 2009
Quote from: hemigeno on October 17, 2010, 08:15:27 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 16, 2010, 06:32:30 PM
Dipstick tube should be on the outside on a 69, tube unpainted, dipstick dipped in black. I have never heard about any controversy on this unless someone (or a few people) had it on the inside (70-up style) incorrectly and felt they needed to argue about it....which is a normal day on Moparts... ;D
Geno - Is your car a factory undercoat car?
On non-undercoat cars the undercoating was pretty well the last thing that was put on (and the pinch weld balack-out if the car originally had it). The cars were fully assembled before it was put on. This explains undercoat on the fuel and brake lines, gas tank, inner fender shields etc.
Thanks for the feedback (as usual) Jim! Even if you hadn't mentioned anything regarding the dipstick, I was planning on bringing the topic up to Vance soon. Why? Because I went back and checked the photo of my car from 1977 (after the engine fire) and it shows no dipstick between the valve cover and exhaust manifold. That's an even better reason for having it outside the manifold, but I really appreciate the confirmation of why that's the case (i.e. a 1970+ thing). I'll find the crispy engine picture here in a bit, it's already posted earlier in this thread.
My car isn't a s/c J55 undercoat car. If it was, the restoration might have been done by now -- since it took a long time to fix all the sheet metal pitting on the underneath side from exposure to the elements. IIRC, the exhaust was not installed when undercoat/deadener was applied, but just about everything else, correct? That's why I mentioned needing the fuel filler tank seal installed. Vance was able to put in the OE seal this past week, and most of the other parts refinishing or change-outs have been made with the possible exception of exhaust tip hanger brackets. Whether he waits to do the undercoat until those brackets materialize or not is up to him (assuming those were even installed when the undercoat/deadener was applied).
I would say everything but the wheels were installed when the undercoat/deadener was applied......I have some good pics of a few cars that shows this - I'll go through the pics I have at home.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 18, 2010, 10:42:08 AM
I would say everything but the wheels were installed when the undercoat/deadener was applied......I have some good pics of a few cars that shows this - I'll go through the pics I have at home.
My R/T is a J55 undercoat car with most of it's original gunk still in place, and there's no evidence of shadowing around where the mufflers, etc. would be. It's a St. Louis car - are there differences with Hamtramck in this area? Didn't think so, but have been wrong before...
Funny thing - On factory u/coat cars the stuff was applied earlier. On non u/coat it was the last thing. I have some good pics of both wingers.
Geno.I was just re-reading over this whole thread.In your opening statements you said "around 8 months" for the restoration.I had the same hopes with my Talladega.While my car is not done to the level that your car is,it is the best that I could afford and it was about 5 years.I applaud the attention to detail that Vance and yourself have.Anyone that knows anything about this hobby or sickness that we have knows that you don't do one of these cars in a Chip Foose Overhaulin episode.I think that in the restoration circles,your car is going to be the bar to which other restorations are compared.Good job.Jon Wood
Quote from: jonw29 on October 18, 2010, 12:58:52 PM
Geno.I was just re-reading over this whole thread.In your opening statements you said "around 8 months" for the restoration.I had the same hopes with my Talladega.While my car is not done to the level that your car is,it is the best that I could afford and it was about 5 years.I applaud the attention to detail that Vance and yourself have.Anyone that knows anything about this hobby or sickness that we have knows that you don't do one of these cars in a Chip Foose Overhaulin episode.I think that in the restoration circles,your car is going to be the bar to which other restorations are compared.Good job.Jon Wood
Thanks a lot, Jon, for that reminder about how long this resto would take :nutkick:
:lol:
I really do appreciate your comments, although I know for certain there are other high-level restored cars which can lay claim to the best-restoration title. I would quickly point to Dave Walden's 1970 Valiant as the likeliest standard-bearer for factory correct Mopar restorations. If you haven't seen or heard of this car, check out a couple of threads on Moparts:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6156475&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1 (http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6156475&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1)
And for the predecessor to that thread, sit back and get a load of all the info (with the usual Moparts bickering) in this one:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=best&Number=4753588&page=0&fpart=1 (http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=best&Number=4753588&page=0&fpart=1)
Dave was phenomenally successful in getting a lot of correct parts for his car(s), and able to accurately reproduce many others which could not be sourced. Not to mention, they went to incredible levels of documentation and painstaking replication efforts along the way. Paul Jacobs & Troy Angelly have also done multiple cars to an extremely high level (such as moparjohn's B5 Daytona for one), Ken Mosier's work is well-received, and there are several other top-name restoration shops who have cars that could rival anyone's claim to being "the best." I'm not hung up on titles, and usually prefer not to be involved in controversial topics like which car is better. Thank you very much for the compliment nonetheless.
Back to my car's resto... even though I never expected this resto to take as little as 8 months, I had no idea it would still be ongoing after 4 years. Early on, it seemed like a slam dunk that the car would be done long before Talladega '09. I also had no idea we would be focusing on all the little details to the degree you see on the car now, or if some of the parts searches would end up producing many of the things we needed. That being said, it would probably get done about the same way if the opportunity was given to do everything over again. Much of the delays were of my own doing, as are the reasons some of the completed work has been re-done. In large part, Vance has been hampered by the original and other parts I've given him to work with.
This entire restoration has been a learning process for me - not only in the details themselves (recent example is the dipstick location), but also in the methods and materials used (e.g. discovering some great rust removal products and more recently, RPM). My guess is that parts refurbishing on another car could be done to this level in a much shorter time period if the lessons we learned the hard way were applied. However, the major hurdle to someone trying to totally restore a car in this fashion is obtaining correct replacement parts where needed. I am incredibly glad to have followed Roger Gibson's advice from many years ago, to buy every part I could find while the stuff is still out there - and even still I'm far short of what's needed for a "totally correct" restoration. Some good stuff can still be found here and there, but unless someone had the foresight to squirrel away a boatload (or poolhouse, right Jim?) full of primo parts, it may be difficult to replicate many of the top-level restored cars seen today without a near-perfect-condition low-mileage survivor to start with... and then the better question is - why restore a car like that? I didn't have that dilemma with my car, as it was a near-basket case to start with.
My stated goal from before remains my goal now: to do the best restoration we can, with the best parts that can be found. Thus far that goal has been met in spades, and I'm happy as can be -- even if everyone else hates the finished product. I don't know if my car is worthy of the accolades you've given it, Jon, but I sincerely appreciate them. Just don't tell my wife that this "hobby" is actually a sickness, or she'll have me institutionalized for treatment...
:cheers:
Geno You write reel good!
Sorry hit the button too early.
All joking aside Gene - You went to the wall and agonized more than a sane person would on the details - And the details, added together are what separate a great job vs an average job.
Sanity has no place in the OEM resto world! :yesnod:
Congrats on doing the research and sweating the details! :cheers:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 18, 2010, 02:26:33 PM
Sanity has no place in the OEM resto world! :yesnod:
Ain't that the truth!
Thanks, Jim - you've been through a lot of these issues before with your own cars, and know even better than I do what a struggle it is to get them "right".
Geno..
The newest addition to your signature is very cool....... :2thumbs:
Not to get off topic, but check out the picture of the black and white 69 Superbee 6pk car. It has no inner fender bracket and the wide master cylinder! If you restored that car back as it was can you imagine what all the experts would say!! :RantExplode:
Quote from: hemigeno on October 18, 2010, 09:26:34 AM
Here's another A12 reference pic, you can see the dipstick/tube at the very bottom outside the manifold. I have several other original pictures showing the same trait. The other pictures I have with inside-the-manifold handles might be restored cars whose handle position was relocated, not sure.
I'm Thinkin a Ramcharger hood car not A12...Look at the cable from the firewall to fender well.
be carefull using pilot car or pre-preduction car photos for references.. A lot of them were / are hand built and do not show the normal traits of a mass production vehicle
Not to mention the unpainted intake, chrome v/covers, parts counter replacement battery and Federal p/s pump among other stuff.
The color A12 pic is pretty darn correct.
In either case the dipstick tube is correct.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on October 19, 2010, 07:40:14 AM
...
In either case the dipstick tube is correct.
And that's his final answer......................... Who wants to be a millionaire? :icon_smile_big:
Yes!
welcome to the site PJ
Brent
Geno,
Great pictures and verbage to go with! I noticed a lot of discussion on engine oil dipstick tubes. I have attached an original before picture of the B5 Daytona and if you look to the right of the black valve cover cap the dip stick is there on the outside of the exhaust manifold! Unfortunately the tube was missing on the R4 Daytona.
Looks like a lot of progress!
OK, I have some more "before" pictures that just surfaced last month. Vance actually sent them to me two and a half years ago, but they were sent to an email address I don't use anymore and had not checked in years. Thankfully, the emails were still floating around in cyberspace.
Anyway, I'm posting these for two reasons: First to mark the fourth anniversary of when this whole ordeal (and thread) started; second, because the collective braintrust here at DC.com might offer even greater insight into the car than what I've picked up on. I have already referenced some of these pictures to help with undercoat patterns on the back end of the car, as well as a more definitive pattern to follow for blackout on the radiator yoke/support.
There are 20 pictures in all, that date back to the first few days of the car's disassembly work. Not much explanation is needed for these kinds of pics, I suppose.
More of the same
Still more of the same
(BTW, Robert/FJMG, I couldn't make out any writing beneath the layer of undercoat like your car had - still wondering if that was a common trait)
A few more - the last one shows some of the tail end undercoat spray pattern we'll try to emulate
Last of the "before" pictures. I won't have an update on the car's progress for a little while longer, but hope to head back north in a few weeks.
Quote from: paul jacobs on October 18, 2010, 10:27:03 PM
Not to get off topic, but check out the picture of the black and white 69 Superbee 6pk car. It has no inner fender bracket and the wide master cylinder! If you restored that car back as it was can you imagine what all the experts would say!! :RantExplode:
Good call Paul! - Not to mention it is a disc brake master - drums only on A12's. And those heater hoses appear taped together. This had to be some kind of "mule" car before all the stuff was finalized.
Oooops - Off topic.....Back to you Geno!
Quote from: hemigeno on November 24, 2010, 05:47:50 PM
Still more of the same
(BTW, Robert/FJMG, I couldn't make out any writing beneath the layer of undercoat like your car had - still wondering if that was a common trait)
Like these markings on my C500... or on the topcoat?
Just like the A1 on the pass. firewall. I posted a pic in this thread earlier. I'll see if I can find the other marks you show.
more good/intresting pictures Geno , thanks for sharing :yesnod:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on November 24, 2010, 08:02:43 PM
Oooops - Off topic.....Back to you Geno!
You know I love a good thread hijack!
Quote from: xs29j8Bullitt on November 24, 2010, 08:48:20 PM
Like these markings on my C500... or on the topcoat?
That "A1" on the firewall is a puzzler. Robert's Daytona has the same marking, and I had earlier thought it might be a truncated "A11" denoting the car's status as something other than an R/T. The same might hold true for a C500, but there is no difference between an R/T, C500 and Daytona until you get to the trim phase (i.e. quarterpanel & tailpanel decoration differences and omition of the grille assembly) and by then you wouldn't have been able to see any markings on the inner fender/firewall. It's gotta mean something else.
Those are neat details though, even if we don't know what they mean.
Quote
That "A1" on the firewall is a puzzler. Robert's Daytona has the same marking, and I had earlier thought it might be a truncated "A11" denoting the car's status as something other than an R/T. The same might hold true for a C500, but there is no difference between an R/T, C500 and Daytona until you get to the trim phase (i.e. quarterpanel & tailpanel decoration differences and omition of the grille assembly) and by then you wouldn't have been able to see any markings on the inner fender/firewall. It's gotta mean something else.
Those are neat details though, even if we don't know what they mean.
Maybe it does.
At what point of the build up is the body shell assigned a vin or designated as a special handling vehicle?
AFAIK, as soon as pieces start down the assembly line there is an assigned VIN for that shell. Otherwise, the workers would not have known whether to assemble a 2-door or 4-door, Coronet vs. Charger vs. Belvedere, and so on.
You'd think the guys in the body shop (where the marks were likely to have been applied) could have known of the car's Sales Code A11 designation - but what purpose would it serve? What would they do differently? If it was a "Body In White" designated for delivery to Nichels Engineering, etc. there'd be differences at that point.
:ahum:
Could also be way off of this A11 thing.
"Al" was just signing his work. :lol:
:lol:
quite possible!
I had a two-tone car that had both paint codes written on the front of the core support (obviously before paint). Kinda cool - Kinda like extra insurance so no one was going to screw it up.
Quote from: hemigeno on November 05, 2008, 10:41:58 PM
As with the turn signals, there was a prescribed method for installing the headlight actuators. The washers you see between the actuator and the bucket were spelled out exactly. This was undoubtedly what the engineers figured out was required to get the headlight doors to open as they wanted them to.
A lot of you guys have spent countless hours trying to get headlight doors to open correctly, and I don't think I would ever have the patience to figure some of those details out. Anyway, I took some pictures just to show how these were originally assembled.
The last picture shows a grommet used to protect the headlamp wiring and the vacuum line feeds that travel inside the headlight bucket. My car had one of its original grommets, but the other one is MIA.
bit late on this i know :slap: had a flash back you was looking for one of these , you prolly got it sorted by now ! but checkout Robs door gromet for power windows !! same / close :scratchchin:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76532.0.html
Quote from: tan top on January 02, 2011, 07:11:44 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on November 05, 2008, 10:41:58 PM
The last picture shows a grommet used to protect the headlamp wiring and the vacuum line feeds that travel inside the headlight bucket. My car had one of its original grommets, but the other one is MIA.
bit late on this i know :slap: had a flash back you was looking for one of these , you prolly got it sorted by now ! but checkout Robs door gromet for power windows !! same / close :scratchchin:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76532.0.html
Thanks for thinking this up Tan Top,
At first I thought why didn't I think of that. I took a look at my power window car and my first impression was we got a winner. Grommets are actually pretty close to the same diameter. Looking a little closer and I realized they are not the same. :brickwall: The grommet in the door of a power window car and in the door post are the same grommets. They are just reversed in the direction they sit in the hole in the door and door post. The tapered cone end of the door grommet is inside the door so you can't see it. The Daytona grommet doesn't have the tapered cone on it. Looks like the search goes on Gene.
Dave
Well, I suppose you only see one side of the grommet anyway, since the opposite side is concealed inside the headlight bucket. A guy would have to cut down that tapered cone so as not to interfere with anything inside the headlight bucket, but it's an interesting prospect. What is the size of the power window wiring hole (in the sheet metal)? I don't know if I have this issue "sorted" right now or not tan top, although hemi_tyme is still working on some of his usual magic... BTW, thanks again for the Chilton's book, Ken!!
I have another batch of pictures ready to post from a trip Jonathan and I made the weekend before Christmas. There's been some progress made, and even more since that time. Depending on which way things go on some interior components, the Daytona could be finished up in the next couple of months... at least the potential is there, anyway.
Some cool detail stuff is in the works.
Quote from: Davtona on January 02, 2011, 03:46:28 PM
Quote from: tan top on January 02, 2011, 07:11:44 AM
Quote from: hemigeno on November 05, 2008, 10:41:58 PM
The last picture shows a grommet used to protect the headlamp wiring and the vacuum line feeds that travel inside the headlight bucket. My car had one of its original grommets, but the other one is MIA.
bit late on this i know :slap: had a flash back you was looking for one of these , you prolly got it sorted by now ! but checkout Robs door gromet for power windows !! same / close :scratchchin:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76532.0.html
Thanks for thinking this up Tan Top,
At first I thought why didn't I think of that. I took a look at my power window car and my first impression was we got a winner. Grommets are actually pretty close to the same diameter. Looking a little closer and I realized they are not the same. :brickwall: The grommet in the door of a power window car and in the door post are the same grommets. They are just reversed in the direction they sit in the hole in the door and door post. The tapered cone end of the door grommet is inside the door so you can't see it. The Daytona grommet doesn't have the tapered cone on it. Looks like the search goes on Gene.
Dave
:cheers: :2thumbs:
could not be that easy could it :brickwall: :scratchchin: ... :popcrn:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 02, 2011, 05:23:43 PM
Well, I suppose you only see one side of the grommet anyway, since the opposite side is concealed inside the headlight bucket. A guy would have to cut down that tapered cone so as not to interfere with anything inside the headlight bucket, but it's an interesting prospect. What is the size of the power window wiring hole (in the sheet metal)? I don't know if I have this issue "sorted" right now or not tan top, although hemi_tyme is still working on some of his usual magic... BTW, thanks again for the Chilton's book, Ken!!
I have another batch of pictures ready to post from a trip Jonathan and I made the weekend before Christmas. There's been some progress made, and even more since that time. Depending on which way things go on some interior components, the Daytona could be finished up in the next couple of months... at least the potential is there, anyway.
Some cool detail stuff is in the works.
:2thumbs: more pictures !!! great stuff :yesnod: :popcrn:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 02, 2011, 05:23:43 PM
the Daytona could be finished up in the next couple of months...
:2thumbs: :boogie:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 02, 2011, 05:23:43 PM
..., the Daytona could be finished up in the next couple of months... at least the potential is there, anyway.
...
:2thumbs: 1st thing you're going to do is the Cannonball Run with it? Zoom Zoom..........
(http://zachward.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/cannonball-run.jpg)
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 06, 2011, 03:10:13 PM
:2thumbs: 1st thing you're going to do is the Cannonball Run with it? Zoom Zoom..........
I'd be up for it -- but since Captain Chaos isn't available for driving duties these days :engel016: , I'll have to pass.
One of the things Vance and I did during my trip in December was to look at some original steering columns to see how the blackout paint was applied. These next several pictures are from an unrestored/untouched steering column. This particular car had green interior, so you can see clearly how the green paint was applied to the tube, the column assembled, and the blackout paint applied after the plastic cover was taped in place.
In the second picture you can see how the plastic bushing has blackout paint, and how it exhibits a "shadowline" from the steering column - as if the painter hit the sides & top of the column/cover but didn't hit the bottom as hard with the paint gun.
Since my Daytona has a black interior not all of those details are going to be replicated, but it shows the process nonetheless.
More steering column details - which provide good forensic evidence of how they did things. Since these were taken, Vance has "blacked out" the steering column, bushing, shaft and connector on my Daytona in a similar fashion prior to reinstallation.
The first two pictures perhaps don't show what I was trying to capture very well, but you'd be able to see it in person a whole lot better. These are shots of the rear bumper. Rechromed bumpers usually look too good, since the originals (such as this one) have fairly poor chrome coverage which allow a lot of sanding marks to show through the chrome finish. That's what I was trying to capture here.
The last two pictures are of an area undergoing reconstruction. On my previous trip in October, I made the call to remove the latch tray bracket that is welded to the radiator support. This car was put together by Creative without a usual/customary paint coating on the stamped steel bracket... which led to pretty severe rust pitting on the original piece. Vance had done the best he could to make the part look like it should, but no matter how you slice or dice it, the metal should be bare (at least on my car anyway). Ultimately, I thought it was best to remove the original spot welds, replace the stamped steel bracket, and spot-weld the new piece in place. In these pictures you can see where it has already been removed and prepped for the new piece.
I took some pictures of components that Vance has planned to re-do or complete in the near future. First on the list is the wing "washers". These were bare metal pieces normally spot-welded to the trunk opening's lip. Since we've started using RPM, it made sense to take these off to clean them up, treat with RPM, and reinstall. That will be an improvement in my book over the faux bare metal finish seen in the first picture. One thing to note in the first picture is that there are relatively few visible spot-welds. These parts have not been removed at this point, so what you see is original installation evidence even if it's been painted.
The second picture shows that although the wing brace bolts have been installed (see the trunk floor extension area), Vance had not yet installed the undercoating. He will remove the brace bolts and scissors jack hold-down stud prior to spraying out the undercoat, since that hardware would not have been in place at Hamtramck.
In the third pic you can see that the wing braces have been test-fitted and torqued down. Vance wanted to make sure everything was fitting properly prior to doing the undercoating - just in case something needed to be tweaked. Everything fit well, so he's ready to proceed with the next step.
The first picture shows the opposite side's wing "washer", and a distinction to make here is that more spot-welds were installed on this side than the other. Vance took note of these locations, as you'll see in the photos from my most recent visit.
The second photo shows the stripe material folded in around the reflector bezel assembly. Speaking of which, the last two photos were my attempt to show the non-matching paint peeking out from the inside edge of the painted bezel. My camera did a poor job of capturing this detail, but there is T5 Copper Metallic on the driver's side, and B5 Blue Metallic on the passenger's side - just as was found on my car during disassembly.
The next several pictures are of various components, clips and fasteners we've been trying to improve as time has gone along. First up is the door latch assembly. These can be replated in a gold anodized finish to look awesome (we had a set on the car for a while like that), but the original star wheels were not gold - they were silver. It's basically impossible to disassemble the latches and replate the components separately for re-assembly. Everything was staked together in such a way that you pretty much destroy the housing if you take it apart. It's been pretty hard to find unpitted original latches that still retain much semblance of their original plating hues.
The last three pictures are of the master cylinder mounting studs. I posted pictures from an earlier visit showing pitting on the heads of the original studs. Vance found and installed these unpitted studs which also show a flattened edge from the tool used to drive the studs into the master cylinder housing/body.
First up here is the galvanized steel clip used to support the wiring over the top of the master cylinder. Bill Allphin had asked about this a while back, and the finished product is now in place.
Next is the throttle cable. Paul Jacobs and I had chatted about this when I paid him a visit the day before. The throttle cable cover/end should have a white coating on it as you see here (at least on a 1969 model 383/440 4bbl B-body). I took the picture as a reminder of what Paul mentioned.
The next two pictures show the radiator tank air seals. These were closed-cell foam seal strips usually glued to the radiator yoke, forcing the nosecone air to go through the core rather than up or down & around the radiator. My car came with a 2-core 2949055 radiator (440/manual/3.54 ratio) rather than the 3-core 2949054. Why is that important? Well, the bottom tank on a 055 radiator has a larger gap between it and the yoke than the more common 054 3-core radiator. If you only install one thickness of foam strip with an 055 radiator, the gap will not be sealed off. Vance installed a double-thick strip of the foam along the bottom edge. The top tank seal strip is somewhat visible in the last picture, as is the underside of the radiator yoke where the aforementioned latch tray support bracket's spot welds are still visible. Vance has already ground paint from the bottom side of the radiator yoke lip, as Creative's workmen did in preparation for spot-welding the latch tray support bracket.
In the next picture, you can see the difference between original washer hose and the commonly-available reproduction. This is the small diameter stuff that goes out from the tee at the firewall to each of the two nozzles. And yes, MoparJohn, I DID remember to cut off a piece of hose for you this time - I'm looking at it here on my desk right now... it'll make it's way to you sooner or later.
Next is a picture of the felt strip used to cushion where the bumper jack rests. I'm not sure the bumper jack ever sits there once the wing braces are installed, but the strip would have been installed at Hamtramck regardless.
The last two pictures are of the installed license plate light and the galvanized shield/shroud. There's a "flake" look to the original shrouds that I've seen on other galvanized parts but would have no clue how to replicate now. This is the way they should look.
My travelling companion for this long roadtrip in his preferred pose... vanquishing the foes on his NintendoDS :lol:
Looks good Geno - I'll have to look at my throttle cables to see if they were color coded white....and see if I can still see the date code ink stamp on them.
A couple of wider-angle shots (hard to take such in Vance's new digs). One thing you'll note in the last picture is that the windshield and A-pillar trim has been installed. More on that in a sec...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 10, 2011, 05:53:39 PM
Looks good Geno - I'll have to look at my throttle cables to see if they were color coded white....and see if I can still see the date code ink stamp on them.
Thanks, Jim! I found the engineering graphic that says the cable is "supposed" to be white, but that doesn't mean they actually were. Paul J. had one or two cables left, and I think one had its white ID coloring still showing.
These pictures show some details of the driver's side A-pillar trim. Vance was able to re-use all of the original holes in the A-pillar, but the sheet metal screwhead still scratched the heck out of the polished reveal/trim. In the third picture, you'll notice a larger size screw than the others. They didn't chase or run a bit through any of the holes, but the same size screw as used on the other holes just fell right into the hole. Apparently Creative's guys made that one hole larger - whether after they had twisted a screw off in the hole and having to drill it out, I don't know. Vance put the same size screw back in as was taken out, for certain. (may have had something to do with the fitment issue below??)
Another thing he had to do was to gently "massage" the lower edge of the A-pillar trim where it hangs over the door. He's done enough Daytonas and Superbirds to know you don't slap the trim on and slam the door... :o Vance ever so slightly trimmed the bottom edge of the piece to give everything just a bit more breathing room.
Same fitment issues, opposite side.
You can actually see that when the original screw holes are used, Creative's workers held the trim up as high as they could to help with the door clearance issues (see pictures showing the less-than-ideal joint between the rain trough trim and the A-pillar trim).
I've heard for a good while that Creative used caulk to seal the joint between the A-pillar and the windshield gasket. They used a sealant of course, but it was not necessarily caulk. What you see here is a strip of the butyl sealant used to seal back windows. They simply cut off a strip and worked it into the joint. It kinda has a grainy look to it and is still quite messy and crude, but it matches other original cars I've seen.
:popcrn:
I took the first picture to remind myself about why Vance had not installed the red brake drum paint. He's waiting for the date-coded wheels to be detailed and ready for installation. Then he's going to slather red paint on the drum - and while it's still wet and dripping, put the road wheels in place. He's seen original road wheels with paint drips on the inner rim which would match up to a drip on a drum (it would, of course, match the drip pattern only if the wheel was mounted on the same drum, and oriented on the lugs in the same fashion).
The second and third pictures are of the 2841887 sail panel emblem I found. It has a section of casting inside the first "r" that was left intact. Might be why this particular emblem was rejected? I didn't think it looked so bad, so it's going on the car. Incidentally, this is the rare-as-hen's-teeth driver's side emblem they haven't produced essentially since the cars were new. The passenger's side emblem (2841886) fits in the same holes and is only discernably different than its counterpart by those with a pair of dial calipers (and those of us who have nothing better to do with their lives than study such inane details). Wanna try your hand? The third picture is the more common passenger's side emblem...
Last picture for this batch - is a sad testament to how stiff the original air seal material is... this is an original K-member seal that was rolled up for many years. It's been laid flat now at Vance's shop for over a year, and I think it was laid flat by its previous caretaker for much longer than that. Still has a curl to it that will probably never come out... :rotz: At least once it's installed the clips will help out some.
I was at Vance's over the weekend to deliver a few more components, and have a few more pictures to post up - haven't had time to resize them just yet.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 10, 2011, 06:20:53 PM
I've heard for a good while that Creative used caulk to seal the joint between the A-pillar and the windshield gasket. They used a sealant of course, but it was not necessarily caulk. What you see here is a strip of the butyl sealant used to seal back windows. They simply cut off a strip and worked it into the joint. It kinda has a grainy look to it and is still quite messy and crude, but it matches other original cars I've seen.
Wow, that is something I was not aware of. Can I assume the 500's were treated the same way? Or did Creative learn of this issue by the way the 500's went down the road? I'm assuming this is too keep water from gushing behind the A-pillar moldings while driving down the highway? If nothing else, the restoration on my 500 just got a little more complicated.
Geno, your car looks awesome and I cannot thank you enough for the wealth of information you have provided here. I really appreciate all the time and effort you've dedicated to this site, and I will definitely will be using it as a resource. Not that I'm in any position to ask for anything, but I would love to see how the A-pillar trim looks after you remove the excess butyl tape. Do you guys have a specific method for removing it? Thanks again...
Mike
Super stock magazine did a test on a daytona back in the day.They mentioned the A piller trim being installed that way.
Geno,
More great pictures of all the details! The one item that I would like to comment on is the NOS rear license plate lamp shield. I work on a hot dip galvanize line! Rob who polished our glass told me he could stamp out a new transmission dust shield if I could get the steel. So at the end of production runs I have been trying differant variables to recreate that larger "SPANGLE". That is our term for the pattern of that galvanizing on the shield. So far I havn't been able to come close! I have been told by an old metalurgist that it is because we no longer run the high lead content? I have attached a picture that has a nice used transmission dust shield and a newer one with the superceded stamping and you can see the much finer pattern of spangle compared to the original. If I take a part and put it into the molten metal it will warp before it gets hot enough for the galvanizing to stick@#$^&*((! I am still trying! I am hoping you stop by and deliver the hose and check out the R4 Daytona!
Mopar John
Great pics. and detail. I installed my A pillar trim a few months ago and yes A bit of work. They cleared the doors fine but some of the original screw holes were a bit of a fight especially windshield side, (large gap) no wonder they used a wide bead of butyl. Car is lookin good Geno.
good pictures Geno :yesnod: :popcrn:
Quote from: Mopar John on January 10, 2011, 10:21:03 PM
Geno,
More great pictures of all the details! The one item that I would like to comment on is the NOS rear license plate lamp shield. I work on a hot dip galvanize line! Rob who polished our glass told me he could stamp out a new transmission dust shield if I could get the steel. So at the end of production runs I have been trying differant variables to recreate that larger "SPANGLE". That is our term for the pattern of that galvanizing on the shield. So far I havn't been able to come close! I have been told by an old metalurgist that it is because we no longer run the high lead content? I have attached a picture that has a nice used transmission dust shield and a newer one with the superceded stamping and you can see the much finer pattern of spangle compared to the original. If I take a part and put it into the molten metal it will warp before it gets hot enough for the galvanizing to stick@#$^&*((! I am still trying! I am hoping you stop by and deliver the hose and check out the R4 Daytona!
Mopar John
Hey John - I have tried galvanizing various parts up here as well. The original parts were punched from pre-galvanized sheet. I did some head light buckets that were too shiny and slightly rough. I threw them in my tumbler after and they came out pretty darned nice. I wish I had a bigger tumbler for the bigger stuff.
Quote from: charger500440 on January 10, 2011, 06:47:41 PM
Wow, that is something I was not aware of. Can I assume the 500's were treated the same way? Or did Creative learn of this issue by the way the 500's went down the road? I'm assuming this is too keep water from gushing behind the A-pillar moldings while driving down the highway? If nothing else, the restoration on my 500 just got a little more complicated.
Geno, your car looks awesome and I cannot thank you enough for the wealth of information you have provided here. I really appreciate all the time and effort you've dedicated to this site, and I will definitely will be using it as a resource. Not that I'm in any position to ask for anything, but I would love to see how the A-pillar trim looks after you remove the excess butyl tape. Do you guys have a specific method for removing it? Thanks again...
Mike
Thanks for the compliment, Mike - I do appreciate it, and am glad that at least some folks are benefitting from this long ordeal of mine.
As for the sealant at the A-pillar trim, one of the purposes was to keep water getting behind the trim or from following along the attachment screw that goes through the windshield gasket. They definitely had to butcher up the gasket to attach the A-pillar trim, which is perhaps why they revamped the Superbird version. I'm not sure if there was an aerodynamic "smoothing" function for the sealer in addition to weatherization (could be??).
There won't be any more work done to the sealant strip you see in the photos. As crude as it is, that's the way it will stay. Below is a picture taken from a 11,000mi Daytona that has been in storage since the mid '70s for comparison.
Quote from: Mopar John on January 10, 2011, 10:21:03 PM
Geno,
More great pictures of all the details! The one item that I would like to comment on is the NOS rear license plate lamp shield. I work on a hot dip galvanize line! Rob who polished our glass told me he could stamp out a new transmission dust shield if I could get the steel. So at the end of production runs I have been trying differant variables to recreate that larger "SPANGLE". That is our term for the pattern of that galvanizing on the shield. So far I havn't been able to come close! I have been told by an old metalurgist that it is because we no longer run the high lead content? I have attached a picture that has a nice used transmission dust shield and a newer one with the superceded stamping and you can see the much finer pattern of spangle compared to the original. If I take a part and put it into the molten metal it will warp before it gets hot enough for the galvanizing to stick@#$^&*((! I am still trying! I am hoping you stop by and deliver the hose and check out the R4 Daytona!
Mopar John
Thanks for the info on galvanizing, John. I forgot about your coined term "spangle", but remembered the general discussion about how difficult it was to replicate. You'd be in a much better position than most everyone for experimenting, although the makeup of hot-dip tank chemicals is probably the key. Changes in the EPA regulations may have effectively eliminated any possibility of replicating some things like this, although there's probably good reasons why a few of those changes were made.
:scratchchin: Just thinkin' out loud here... but could you tin the steel (coat it with tin or lead) prior to dipping just to see if it produced a different result? :shruggy:
I definitely want to stop by and see your R4 car - and drool over your B5 car again too. Most times when I'm headed north it's a rush-rush trip, although the next trip up may give me a better opportunity for an extra stop (long story).
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2011, 09:55:40 AM
...
As for the sealant at the A-pillar trim, one of the purposes was to keep water getting behind the trim or from following along the attachment screw that goes through the windshield gasket. They definitely had to butcher up the gasket to attach the A-pillar trim, which is perhaps why they revamped the Superbird version. I'm not sure if there was an aerodynamic "smoothing" function for the sealer in addition to weatherization (could be??).
There won't be any more work done to the sealant strip you see in the photos. As crude as it is, that's the way it will stay. Below is a picture taken from a 11,000mi Daytona that has been in storage since the mid '70s for comparison.
Wow.. I guess I can sleep a little bit better now knowing my a-pillars AREN'T all messed up with all the sealer I have on it... And to think I was going to clean it all up.... :lol:
Thanks Geno
Troy, it's your car - no one says you have to mess it all up like we're doing with mine!
Just wait 'til you get a load of all the overspray headed for the engine compartment. :o
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2011, 12:50:11 PM
Troy, it's your car - no one says you have to mess it all up like we're doing with mine!
Just wait 'til you get a load of all the overspray headed for the engine compartment. :o
Oh no... I prefer it that way............ It's already got goop in the joints.. I'll leave well-enough along now. I'm guess the C500 was the same...............
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2011, 09:55:40 AM
Quote from: charger500440 on January 10, 2011, 06:47:41 PM
Wow, that is something I was not aware of. Can I assume the 500's were treated the same way? Or did Creative learn of this issue by the way the 500's went down the road? I'm assuming this is too keep water from gushing behind the A-pillar moldings while driving down the highway? If nothing else, the restoration on my 500 just got a little more complicated.
Geno, your car looks awesome and I cannot thank you enough for the wealth of information you have provided here. I really appreciate all the time and effort you've dedicated to this site, and I will definitely will be using it as a resource. Not that I'm in any position to ask for anything, but I would love to see how the A-pillar trim looks after you remove the excess butyl tape. Do you guys have a specific method for removing it? Thanks again...
Mike
Thanks for the compliment, Mike - I do appreciate it, and am glad that at least some folks are benefitting from this long ordeal of mine.
As for the sealant at the A-pillar trim, one of the purposes was to keep water getting behind the trim or from following along the attachment screw that goes through the windshield gasket. They definitely had to butcher up the gasket to attach the A-pillar trim, which is perhaps why they revamped the Superbird version. I'm not sure if there was an aerodynamic "smoothing" function for the sealer in addition to weatherization (could be??).
There won't be any more work done to the sealant strip you see in the photos. As crude as it is, that's the way it will stay. Below is a picture taken from a 11,000mi Daytona that has been in storage since the mid '70s for comparison.
Wow again. That's even more amazing to me. I never realized they did this at all, much less left it looking all hacked together. Thanks once again...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 11, 2011, 08:44:08 AM
I wish I had a bigger tumbler for the bigger stuff.
Doesn't Mrs. JB have a clothes dryer you could 'borrow' next time she goes shopping with the girls?
Might have to pull a Tim the Tool Man Taylor and give the motor a little extra power to handle the additional weight - but you can handle it!!
Great pictures Geno, some amazing work going on there. :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: Especially like the A-pillar details. Interestingly on my 500, the drivers side trim only had 2 screws intalled, they missed the top one. Some fine quality control... :-\
Quote from: hemigeno on January 11, 2011, 06:43:41 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 11, 2011, 08:44:08 AM
I wish I had a bigger tumbler for the bigger stuff.
Doesn't Mrs. JB have a clothes dryer you could 'borrow' next time she goes shopping with the girls?
Might have to pull a Tim the Tool Man Taylor and give the motor a little extra power to handle the additional weight - but you can handle it!!
Good Idea!!
Gene did you get a picture of the throttle cable and the date off the 11,xxx mile car? It not here it is for you.
Nice clean stamp - Were there white daubs on it - can't tell from the pic.
Only wound up with 5 pictures of that part, and I can't make out any daubs on it in any of them. Where was the inspection daub typically located on them? I'll try to see if its in the background in any of the other pictures of the car.
Usually about a 1/4 - 1/2 of it would have a streak of a color to denote its application. For example - a 70 Hemi E-Body would be a baby blue color.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 11, 2011, 08:44:08 AM
Quote from: Mopar John on January 10, 2011, 10:21:03 PM
Geno,
More great pictures of all the details! The one item that I would like to comment on is the NOS rear license plate lamp shield. I work on a hot dip galvanize line! Rob who polished our glass told me he could stamp out a new transmission dust shield if I could get the steel. So at the end of production runs I have been trying differant variables to recreate that larger "SPANGLE". That is our term for the pattern of that galvanizing on the shield. So far I havn't been able to come close! I have been told by an old metalurgist that it is because we no longer run the high lead content? I have attached a picture that has a nice used transmission dust shield and a newer one with the superceded stamping and you can see the much finer pattern of spangle compared to the original. If I take a part and put it into the molten metal it will warp before it gets hot enough for the galvanizing to stick@#$^&*((! I am still trying! I am hoping you stop by and deliver the hose and check out the R4 Daytona!
Mopar John
Hey John - I have tried galvanizing various parts up here as well. The original parts were punched from pre-galvanized sheet. I did some head light buckets that were too shiny and slightly rough. I threw them in my tumbler after and they came out pretty darned nice. I wish I had a bigger tumbler for the bigger stuff.
Jim,
That is what we make is coils of galvanized steel for the auto plants! We run continuous and make cuts at the begining and ends of the coils. When we start and finish the runs we have salvage type material where I can experiment. Then I can go dig these sheets out of the scrap box and see what the results are. The stuff I try to do by hand in the zinc bath is no where close. We run the steel into the bath at the same temprature as the zinc for the correct bond! I am still trying and just maybe when something is way out of spec it will be good for us and I'll grab all the scrap and get a pass for it!
John
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 11, 2011, 08:10:38 PM
Usually about a 1/4 - 1/2 of it would have a streak of a color to denote its application. For example - a 70 Hemi E-Body would be a baby blue color.
The 383/440-4 throttle cables seemed to have their white ID color pretty much all around the "shroud". That's how the one currently on my car looks, and the one in Danny's pic was the same way. Doesn't mean they were all made the same though. BTW, thanks for posting the pic Danny - I didn't take a picture of that since I was too busy holding the end for you to take pictures with your real camera equipment...
Incidentally, '68-'70 B-body Hemi cables had a two-color ID coating - violet & black - that also seemed to cover the whole end as in the following pics (photo credit to Davtona):
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 11, 2011, 07:35:36 PM
Nice clean stamp - Were there white daubs on it - can't tell from the pic.
Quote from: 69_500 on January 11, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
Only wound up with 5 pictures of that part, and I can't make out any daubs on it in any of them. Where was the inspection daub typically located on them? I'll try to see if its in the background in any of the other pictures of the car.
The white ID paint/coating is shown in Danny's pic - it's just about half flaked off and slightly discolored, but it covers the whole end. Sorta the same mottled look as in the earlier picture of my cable's end.
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=143540)
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=143653)
Geno - Do your engineering binders show the different color codes on the throttle cables?
Yes they do, and they reference "blue" for the '70 E-body cables as you already mentioned.
Here are a few more pictures, taken last Saturday.
The car is inching closer and closer to completion. More of the little detail items are being done, and we are gradually winnowing down the parts list.
First up in this batch of pictures are some shots I took of the refurbished wheels. Stockton Wheel took almost 9 months to get them done, but this was well worth the time. Both Vance and I had numerous conversations with them trying to explain exactly what we wanted, and even sent them a couple of original wheels as a pattern to follow. It's goes against every fiber of a chrome shop to intentionally do a bad job, but after one or two tries they did what both Vance and I think is a really, really good job of duplicating the "flash chrome" look. It almost appears as if the surface has been shot-peened (it hasn't), and you can clearly see sanding marks from the prep work done to the exposed surfaces. They are almost ready to do the blackout treatment in between the spokes and about 1/4" up around the outer rim/edge of the center section. Originally, the wheel manufacturer had a more permanent jig that masked off the spokes, but tape will work just fine. Vance peeled back a section of masking on each wheel for a peek at how they looked. I was happy with how they look.
Another area they've been working on is the wing reinforcements that are spot-welded to the decklid drain trough. In these pictures you can see that they've pulled back the weatherstripping and separated the original welds. This was necessary since the reinforcements were slightly pitted and had been finished with a faux bare-steel paint. Vance had to sand everything back down to bare metal, sand out the pitting, treat it with RPM to protect the finish, and then spot-weld them back in place. You can see that they've primed the topside and are ready to apply bodycolor back to that area. The underneath side now shows the bare metal reinforcement plates, along with spot welds put back in their original locations. As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot more spot-welds on the passenger's side than the driver's side for whatever reason. Guess the passenger's side installer got a little happy with the spot-welder...
Another interesting detail is that you can see in the second picture where the underneath side of the decklid drain trough was ground down to allow good contact between the reinforcement plate and the lip for solid welds. The ground/prepped area usually extended a little past the plates.
Another cool detail that won't be seen once the package tray is installed is the lead splatters left on the speaker reinforcement. The window plug at the top edge is not very wide, and it was not unusual for hot lead to drop through the window opening and land here.
I had taken pictures of another related area that Vance is still working on the same detail. Rather than post the work in progress, I'll wait until he's finished the effect. This is the inside of the original Charger "flying buttress" a/k/a sail panel, where the window plug was welded into place. The hot lead filler would seep through the gap between the plug and the sail panel, leaving streaks down the side. The last picture is a shot of that area of my car in this same area prior to disassembly so you can see the effect Vance is shooting to replicate.
Another detail Vance has been working on lately is the latchtray attachment bracket that is spot-welded to the radiator yoke. I've pointed out what we did to the original bracket, and what we decided to do. Here you can see the finished product. Bare metal, with very visible spot welds. Vance saved the original bracket, which would have been paper-thin by the time all the rust pits were sanded down. It was pretty crusty.
Incidentally, this look is NOT correct for most Daytonas, since most of them received a coat of blackout paint across the top of this piece (and inside the nosecone area on any visible sections of fender sheetmetal that had gray primer showing). David Patik has remarked in the past that perhaps 10% of cars had this blackout treatment omitted for whatever reason, and that's why we've followed suit on this particular restoration. It's a neat detail, but not to be taken as a pattern for every car.
More shots of the latchtray reinforcement bracket, from the underneath side.
You can see where the yoke lip was prepped for the spot welds by removing the paint. All the original spot weld locations were still quite visible, so Vance had a pattern to follow for the reinstallation.
The radiator is removed at the moment, since we're having it re-cored (again) with an original 2-row core still in excellent shape. Bob over at Glen-Ray Radiators has been a BIG help on this detail. If/when the car sees more driving duties, I will probably replace the "ultra-correct" 055 radiator with one that has a modern high-efficiency 3-row core but still retain the correct 055 top tank. Best of both worlds then, but for now the car has to make due with what Chrysler's engineers (strangely) saw fit to install in the car.
A couple more shots of the windshield area, and in the first you can see fingerprint remnants in the butyl sealant. In the second shot, you can see a very small gap between the windshield gasket (a vintage part not a reproduction) and the glass. Vance plans to cut a very small tip on a tube of black sealant and get some sealant back inside this gap for weatherization purposes. It probably wouldn't leak if left alone, but it'd be better if we could keep very much water from pooling up inside the gasket. Once he's finished with it you won't see the sealant without prying around on the gasket, and that better not be happening :RantExplode:
The last picture was a reminder to me to order another decklid stripe section. You can see the lines that run front-to-back on the decklid stripe. David Patik had suggested that Vance try using Windex as an installation lubricant instead of his usual dishwashing soap. Problem is, the Windex doesn't allow much set time, and was pretty much dried out by the time they got the stripe positioned and started removing air bubbles. Not good, since the stripe material started to pull as they worked the bubbles out. The result is the marks you see here. Another stripe section has already been delivered, and may have been installed (using dishwashing soap!!) by now. I'm getting a little gunshy in relaying "this is how they said to install it" messages to Vance since this isn't his first rodeo.
In the last shot you can see that the bumper and the remainder of the tail-end components have been installed. This area is pretty much complete, except for cleaning/detailing and installation of the June '69 Missouri license plate.
The undercoating in the rear wheelwells and on the rear underside of the car has been installed too. The first and second pictures show the same area from two different vantage points. Undercoating was usually installed by a guy standing at the rear wheelwell, and he shot the trunk floor from that direction... which is why you can see body-colored paint peeking through on the backside of the ribs - but see no such color showing from the frontside.
The last couple of pictures just show the wheelwell undercoat application.
A couple more undercoat photos, of the opposite-side's wheelwell. The last photo shows how some of the undercoat got on other areas of the car & its components near the rear axle.
(BTW, the "Q" clamps visible in the 3rd pic are slated for replacement with "regular" muffler clamps - Vance is detailing up a set of those).
This is the last of the latest round of pictures taken. I'll be going back up in a few weeks to exchange some other components, and will have a few more things to show then. The To-Do list is getting a lot shorter than it was, for sure.
In the first picture, you can see the scissors jack hold-down nut isn't the correct one. The style used when this car was built is the style that has the captive square nut - rather than the style here that has the threads machined into the body of the wingnut itself. Vance pointed this out to me, and showed me the other nut he has ready to install after it's been replated.
The second pic is of the original washer hose we swiped from my Charger R/T "parts car". It was in perfect shape, and we didn't have to try and eliminate the yellow stripe found on the other hose section I had found (MoparJohn knows what this is about).
The last pic shows the relocated oil dipstick... now outside the exhaust manifold as it was for 1969. You can also partially see that the steering column has been blacked out too.
I think having non-original fingerprints in the A-pillar trim sealant will cost you 2-3 points. You should have found a creative employee and copied his prints - or had him install the trim. I'm sorely disappointed... :P
Troy
We're still searching for the Creative Industries employee fingerprint file so that they can be replicated in exact detail. In the meantime, we had a copy of Elvis' fingerprints and used those.
Quote from: Troy on January 14, 2011, 04:25:47 PM
I think having non-original fingerprints in the A-pillar trim sealant will cost you 2-3 points. You should have found a creative employee and copied his prints - or had him install the trim. I'm sorely disappointed... :P
Troy
:smilielol: Don't laugh Troy he may do that now that you caught that. How about a previous owner?? I'm sure I touched those areas at one time or another. Would that go back far enough?? I'll stick my fingers in it the next time I'm in Michigan. :lol:
Quote from: Davtona on January 14, 2011, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: Troy on January 14, 2011, 04:25:47 PM
I think having non-original fingerprints in the A-pillar trim sealant will cost you 2-3 points. You should have found a creative employee and copied his prints - or had him install the trim. I'm sorely disappointed... :P
Troy
:smilielol: Don't laugh Troy he may do that now that you caught that. How about a previous owner?? I'm sure I touched those areas at one time or another. Would that go back far enough?? I'll stick my fingers in it the next time I'm in Michigan. :lol:
call in CSI
Quote from: hemigeno on January 14, 2011, 03:07:53 PM
...
The second pic is of the original washer hose we swiped from my Charger R/T "parts car". It was in perfect shape, and we didn't have to try and eliminate the yellow stripe found on the other hose section I had found (MoparJohn knows what this is about).
...
Are you going to "over-spray" the cowl area and get paint all over that nice hose and squirters?
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 14, 2011, 05:24:03 PM
Are you going to "over-spray" the cowl area and get paint all over that nice hose and squirters?
Lots of pristine parts will get the overspray treatment. We're waiting for a C.A.R.E. package from Paul Jacobs to arrive in a couple of weeks before getting out the paintgun again.
Some things, like the Emissions Decal, will never see the light of day again after Vance is through :o
Quote from: Troy on January 14, 2011, 04:25:47 PM
I think having non-original fingerprints in the A-pillar trim sealant will cost you 2-3 points. You should have found a creative employee and copied his prints - or had him install the trim. I'm sorely disappointed... :P
Troy
Geno didn't want to spill the beans but he sent a couple of guys from Jersey to bring the Creative guy to Lance's. The guy wouldn't go so the boys
got "Creative" on their own.......
PC Disclaimer: No humans were hurt in the making of this post or the fingerprints on Geno's car.....This is a fake, novelty finger......made by the same people that make rubber vomit and fake doggie-doo.
Gene I'm pretty sure that if you just cruise around up there in Detroit out on 7 mile you might find some of the same people, who were looking for work and were picked up by Creative for a day or two, still looking for work now. I mean the ecomony is bad right? You should give it a shot on a weekend. :)
Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2011, 05:46:13 PM
Gene I'm pretty sure that if you just cruise around up there in Detroit out on 7 mile you might find some of the same people, who were looking for work and were picked up by Creative for a day or two, still looking for work now. I mean the ecomony is bad right? You should give it a shot on a weekend. :)
Too late - He was on Doctor Phil and is now going to be in a Nicholson movie.
Well,, you could go by Jim M.'s green Daytona, didn't look like it had 'too' much overspray...... :scratchchin:
I'm glad I live in the South, you guys up North are rough, especially you Canadians... :nana:
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 14, 2011, 06:11:12 PM
Well,, you could go by Jim M.'s green Daytona, didn't look like it had 'too' much overspray...... :scratchchin:
I'm glad I live in the South, you guys up North are rough, especially you Canadians... :nana:
Yeah - It was a little edgy - no? :o
Gene give me a heads up the next time your heading up that way. I'd tag along if you don't mind someone crawling all around your car snapping a few hundred if not a thousand pictures.
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
Gene, The paint on the latch tray-is there a texture to it? Looks different than the z brackets.
Maybe it's just the flash creating a illusion.
Absolutely stunning. I'll never own another wingcar most likely, real or not. But thanks for putting all these photos up. It's a good thing I have 2 external hard drives. ;)
Quick question pertaining the exhaust manifolds. Is there a high temperature paint that matches them that a person could paint them to keep them from discoloring.
I don't imagine you'll drive it too much so it's not much to worry about. I wanted to do something permanent with my Challenger since I had got caught in a couple rain showers & edges were showing rust.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
Now that I've waited so long to go up to your place Jim, I'll have to renew my passport now. It expired last summer. I don't think "Olga" will let me slide on that one.
Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
Gene give me a heads up the next time your heading up that way. I'd tag along if you don't mind someone crawling all around your car snapping a few hundred if not a thousand pictures.
Sure thing, Danny. What's your schedule like over the next couple of weeks? I may be making another multiple-stop trip that COULD take me through Indy, twice (long story). If that happens, you could hitch a ride with me both ways if you'd like.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
I may take a week off sometime this summer and swing through a couple of places up north. Wouldn't be a complete or successful trip without crossing the border and paying you another visit. Next time, tell Olga I'm a married man, wouldya?
:spank:
Quote from: UFO on January 14, 2011, 07:21:22 PM
Gene, The paint on the latch tray-is there a texture to it? Looks different than the z brackets.
Maybe it's just the flash creating a illusion.
You've got a good eye there Brian. The latch tray does have a texture to it, and this is another detail we copied from my original tray (also observed on at least two other original/untouched Daytonas) that goes against the grain of how most cars were done... which was to paint the latchtray same as the Z brackets. My car has some weird quirks to it, for sure.
Quote from: 472 R/T SE on January 14, 2011, 11:49:18 PM
Absolutely stunning. I'll never own another wingcar most likely, real or not. But thanks for putting all these photos up. It's a good thing I have 2 external hard drives. ;)
Quick question pertaining the exhaust manifolds. Is there a high temperature paint that matches them that a person could paint them to keep them from discoloring.
I don't imagine you'll drive it too much so it's not much to worry about. I wanted to do something permanent with my Challenger since I had got caught in a couple rain showers & edges were showing rust.
Thanks, Mike! The first couple of years the car won't see too much road action (too much trouble to keep it perfectly clean for some of the shows I want to attend), but if I can't justify driving this car I don't know if I can justify keeping it. It won't ever see duty as a daily driver, but simply pulling it on/off the trailer isn't much fun. I'll have the "beater" car from my stable to tool around in also, but the allure of driving a wing car can only be held in check for so long.
The exhaust manifolds were ceramic-coated on the inside surface only, to help keep the heat inside the manifold casting to the greatest degree possible. Vance's preferred engine paint is (I think) an Imron paint he has found does not discolor much with average engine temps. As long as I don't accidentally retard the timing too much or do something else that would elevate exhaust temps beyond the normal range, the combination should hold up well.
If you need additional specifics on the engine paint, let me know so I can ask Vance.
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on January 17, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
I may take a week off sometime this summer and swing through a couple of places up north. Wouldn't be a complete or successful trip without crossing the border and paying you another visit. Next time, tell Olga I'm a married man, wouldya?
:spank:
Unfotunately, the glove does not discriminate..... :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
Oh,,,, I see how you are................. got somethin' 'gainst Texans-who-formerly-were-native-Floridians? :nana:
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 17, 2011, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
Oh,,,, I see how you are................. got somethin' 'gainst Texans-who-formerly-were-native-Floridians? :nana:
Hey AB - Come on up anytime! Just watch out for Moose! (and Olga at the border) :cheers:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 17, 2011, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on January 17, 2011, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 14, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Danny - You and Geno need to drop by my place as well.....I'll let "Olga" know your coming ahead of time.... :lol:
Oh,,,, I see how you are................. got somethin' 'gainst Texans-who-formerly-were-native-Floridians? :nana:
Hey AB - Come on up anytime! Just watch out for Moose! (and Olga at the border) :cheers:
OK, now I'm curious about this Olga... Should she be on the West Coast near Russia?
Well Gene to be honest weekends are booking up pretty fast now that Dakota has found yet another sport to go head long into. I thought I was good and free of sports until baseball season once football was over, but he decided to give his hand at wrestling this year. If you let me know a few weeks in advance I'll make sure to not register him for a tournament that weekend. This coming weekend he has 2 already scheduled.
It's been a good while since I updated this thread, but there hasn't been just a whole lot of progress made on the car. They've tweaked a few things here and there, but a lot of things are waiting on the glass polishing to wrap up and for a few interior component issues to be decided. Most of these issues will be ironed out soon, although one item on my to-do list might not be available until early June.
Davtona and I drove to Vance's this past Saturday, as it was finally time for me to bring the R/T back home. While I was there, we pushed the Daytona out to snap a couple of pictures. The weather didn't exactly cooperate, although the mist turned into quite a shower no sooner than we got the car pushed back in the garage.
Vance is expecting a C.A.R.E. package from Paul Jacobs this week, which will allow him to get the engine compartment mostly buttoned up. Paul's been detailing some hoses for me, and I can't wait to see his handiwork. Vance will just be glad when he doesn't have to push the car around anymore :lol:
Turned out very nice :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Sweet Geno !!!! :2thumbs:
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :2thumbs:
:scope: ......... :drool5: :2thumbs:
Thanks, guys!
Another thread on the main board got me to looking at the rear view mirror post (see below). I understood the first style to be correct for a '69 model year car and the second style to be correct for a '70 model year, but after looking at a few cars I'm not so sure that they didn't use both styles during the '69 model year (maybe an early/late thing??).
Anyway, I'd like to know what style of rear view mirror mast other Daytona or late '69 model year cars have.
:scope:
Would the type of mirror be specified on the buildsheet?
The mirror mast part number look up may have certain type time line of useage
Im looking at my original pictures.Nothing yet with clear detail of the mirror mast
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/1339879-1969_DAYTONA_ORANGE_32.jpg)
My travel buddy recently has been Jonathan, who is almost 13. Sad to say, he was only 8 when this restoration started. Anyway, I loaned him my camera to take a few pictures of whatever he wanted. Besides the usual accidental pictures of the floor, a couple of a Pontiac taillight, and of Vance's dogs who occasionally peeked through the pass-through, he took the following pics. These were important to him, so I'm posting 'em up.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on April 18, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Would the type of mirror be specified on the buildsheet?
The mirror mast part number look up may have certain type time line of useage
Im looking at my original pictures.Nothing yet with clear detail of the mirror mast
The mirror bracket isn't shown on the broadcast sheet. I haven't had a chance yet to go through some of the other paperwork here at the office (won't have time until tomorrow). It might tell me the part number if there is a difference, but it won't show which one is which, I suspect.
I did find this picture snapped from JB's 414619/DocTona, which shows what I thought was the later style, but what may in actuality be the early style if the source information (taken from this thread (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,79716.0.html)) got it backwards...
:scratchchin:
Wanted to thank you for this thread! I have always used it for reference on my build! thank you!
Quote from: hemigeno on April 18, 2011, 03:26:13 PM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on April 18, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Would the type of mirror be specified on the buildsheet?
The mirror mast part number look up may have certain type time line of useage
Im looking at my original pictures.Nothing yet with clear detail of the mirror mast
The mirror bracket isn't shown on the broadcast sheet. I haven't had a chance yet to go through some of the other paperwork here at the office (won't have time until tomorrow). It might tell me the part number if there is a difference, but it won't show which one is which, I suspect.
I did find this picture snapped from JB's 414619/DocTona, which shows what I thought was the later style, but what may in actuality be the early style if the source information (taken from this thread (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,79716.0.html)) got it backwards...
:scratchchin:
haha , just watched the video check out 4.54 minutes shows mirror
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnVbXa5Qr4
Quote from: randr on April 18, 2011, 03:30:05 PM
Wanted to thank you for this thread! I have always used it for reference on my build! thank you!
Glad to help out.
:cheers:
At least now I can tell my therapist that Mopar OCD is of some redeeming value to one other person. :lol:
Quote from: tan top on April 18, 2011, 03:33:12 PM
haha , just watched the video check out 4.54 minutes shows mirror
:icon_smile_big:
Yep, same mirror - literally!
I believe my daytona had the mirror mast as 414619s
Quote from: tan top on April 18, 2011, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on April 18, 2011, 03:26:13 PM
Quote from: nascarxx29 on April 18, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Would the type of mirror be specified on the buildsheet?
The mirror mast part number look up may have certain type time line of useage
Im looking at my original pictures.Nothing yet with clear detail of the mirror mast
The mirror bracket isn't shown on the broadcast sheet. I haven't had a chance yet to go through some of the other paperwork here at the office (won't have time until tomorrow). It might tell me the part number if there is a difference, but it won't show which one is which, I suspect.
I did find this picture snapped from JB's 414619/DocTona, which shows what I thought was the later style, but what may in actuality be the early style if the source information (taken from this thread (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,79716.0.html)) got it backwards...
:scratchchin:
haha , just watched the video check out 4.54 minutes shows mirror
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnVbXa5Qr4
cool car cool video i love those original owner story's
Quote from: nascarxx29 on April 18, 2011, 03:42:27 PM
I believe my daytona had the mirror mast with the Allen head.
Here's a saved picture from your old car. I think it's possible to tell the difference by the taper of the shaft too, since one style is skinnier at the bottom than the top (whereas the other is the opposite).
Dave, do you still have the higher definition/larger file of that photo?
The early seems to has a recessed allen head attachment .The other allen head sticks out :Twocents:
For what it's worth my July build '69 R/T and the '70 500 and '69 SE parts cars i used - all had the same type as shown in the second Pic.
Painted and chromed noted in parts book
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_3015mirror.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_3016mirror.jpg)
Quote from: hemigeno on April 18, 2011, 03:37:09 PM
Quote from: randr on April 18, 2011, 03:30:05 PM
Wanted to thank you for this thread! I have always used it for reference on my build! thank you!
Glad to help out.
:cheers:
At least now I can tell my therapist that Mopar OCD is of some redeeming value to one other person. :lol:
I'm not at the point of aligning my poop largest to smallest before flushing like you, but close! :)
Quote from: randr on April 18, 2011, 03:30:05 PM
Wanted to thank you for this thread! I have always used it for reference on my build! thank you!
:iagree: X2 I'm always refering to this thread when I'm trying to figure things out on my project...
Oh, and Geno....
Your car !
:notworthy:
:faint:
Quote from: randr on April 18, 2011, 09:35:22 PM
I'm not at the point of aligning my poop largest to smallest before flushing like you, but close! :)
Hey, I thought that kind of surveillance was illegal! :lol:
Thanks again, guys - and for the info posted thus far on rear view mirror stems too. Seems like more cars (especially late '69s) had the second style of the two pictures I initially posted. I'll go through some more pictures and paperwork later today.
I can't be sure either is original to my car but the first pic was what has always been on my 70 Challengera nd the 2nd is on my Daytona clone 69 RT/SE.
Hey Allen, thanks for the input.
BTW, there's some wall art here in the shop now for you - give me a call sometime when you can cruise by and pick it up.
:cheers:
Hey Geno,
FWIW,
Of the 100 or so Mopars I have parted out, VERY fewl had the round post mirror in 69. The chrome ones where destined for converts. In fact, I have even come across a few 70 B bodies with the tapered style.
Paul
Quote from: paul jacobs on April 19, 2011, 04:53:04 PM
Hey Geno,
FWIW,
Of the 100 or so Mopars I have parted out, VERY fewl had the round post mirror in 69. The chrome ones where destined for converts. In fact, I have even come across a few 70 B bodies with the tapered style.
Paul
Hi Paul, thanks for the input/feedback!
That seems to be the general consensus, and it'll dictate the way we go. I have the nice original from my R/T to throw in the Daytona, and I won't lose too much sleep over whether I find another correct one or not.
This is yet another example of where "NOS" (even vintage/old stuff) doesn't necessarily mean it's correct... :brickwall:
While I won'rt be going through that amount of detail work on my car, I do thank you, and others, who have documented the process & posted pictures here. :2thumbs:
Thanks Geno, I will get up there soon. I will PM before I come to insure it is convenient for you. Car is looking great, I can't wait to see in in person.
Geno,
Thanks for the update on your restoration project! I have attached pictures of the inside rear view mirrors from our Daytonas. They are the same as the second picture you posted. I know that the wait on the glass must be painfull but it will be well worth the wait! Not many Daytonas have original glass with correct logos, date codes and are defect free!
Mopar John
looks like my 70 convert ,infact mines loose so i need to get an allen wrench and snug it up .
Hi Gene: I stumbled across this thread a couple of days ago and read the whole thing since then. Pretty much all I did for 2 days! Boy you really are going all out on it. On the latest issue about the rear view mirror, I can confirm that both Daytonas I own/owned have that squared shaft version. I was able to find an NOS shaft and mirror in that style for my current project. I was wondering what you did for rear shocks on your car? I am still trying to figure that out on mine. Also I was wondering if you are using the tires that are on the car in the latest photos or are those temporary? I see that they are firestones and I thought the cars came with goodyears. Or am I wrong on that? The last time we talked you told me about your source in Tennessee that might have an NOS nose to hood seal. Were you ever able to ask if he was willing to sell or trade one of them?...Thanks....Tony
Not sure who the source is who sent a CD loaded with nos parts .But I heard sometime ago these 2 sources had complete daytona nos front clips.Never saw any pictures so seeing is believing :Twocents:
Re: hemigeno's Daytona restoration with July-Oct '09 pics (dial-up beware)
« Reply #1253 on: November 12, 2009, 06:53:13 PM » Quote Modify
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Ok Jim I didnt know if it was Delbert stringers parts or Great lakes you dont find everyday NOS daytona clips
Hi Tony - sorry you've had to suffer through all my ramblings over the past couple of days. Every now and then I've gone back through certain portions of the thread for one reason or another, and will occasionally notice things that we started out in one direction only to do something different or make corrections based on information, processes or parts that became available later. It's been a learning process for me the whole way, but I do hope it's of some use to you in your project. I know you're making every effort to get your car back in its original condition, and the finished product will be awesome I'm sure.
Thanks for the confirmation on the rear view mirror stalks. That's been the consensus pretty much, and next week I'm sending the mirror stalk from my R/T up to Vance (along with a couple of other items I've been working on). Way-back-when, I had found only the mirror head new and didn't pay attention to the rest of the assembly... yet another example of something I had to learn about as things have progressed.
For rear shocks, I found a new set with a 1968 model year part number on them. The date code is a bit early (I think they're from mid 1968, towards the tail end of the model year), but everything is all B-body HD. You already know how difficult it is to find the late '69 part number without any seal seepage and with readable stampings. It's always plausible that such a set of shocks were leftover in the parts bin or on the pallet, so that's my story and I'm sticking to it... lol
The tires on the car in some of the later pictures are indeed "incorrect" Firestone bias-ply reproductions, which are mounted on 14x6.0 reproduction rims from Stockton Wheel. The tires & wheels I'll have on the car at most any non-driving or judged event (e.g. Carlisle, more details on this a bit later, hint hint) are a set of restored road wheels with May 22, 1969 date codes on the 14x5.5 rims. It took nearly 9 months to get the flash chrome process on the center sections perfected through Stockton Wheel, and they did a fabulous job of replicating the original wheel center's not-really-very-nice look. These particular wheels have new assembly-line Goodyear tires (just ink stamps on the treads, no stickers, which only came on dealer-mounted or tire-store tires), with date codes ranging from March or April to June '69. I also have new '69-only trim rings, chrome lugs and shorty center caps (and correct plastic valve stem caps too!) to complete the set. These tires & wheels won't be used for much more than putting the car in & out of the trailer, considering all that rubber is at least 42 years old this month. I had the second fully-reproduction set made up for any cruising or driving we do.
I haven't talked to my friend in TN recently, as things have been going crazy around here trying to get this whole project wrapped up. Hopefully my tardiness isn't holding up your project. If I haven't gotten back with you by late July, bounce me again - I'm more than capable of forgetting.
I'll also try to find some time to update this thread a bit on what's been happening in the last 1-2 months. Things are rapidly progressing, as I thought they might at this stage. There aren't a whole lot of photographs to document what's going on unfortunately, but I'll still try to describe some of the things in the works. There are a whole lot of people who have been a GREAT deal of help in getting some of the last minute details (and I think some of these things might really be last minute details) worked out. I'm also excited about one potential opportunity for the Chryslers at Carlisle show that hasn't been confirmed just yet. Hopefully that "little" issue can be worked out & confirmed soon.
Sounds good. If your car is at Carlisle maybe I will make a point to be there. So are the numbers on your rear shocks 3400592 ? I think this is what came on them originally. Are they NOS or did you refurbish good used ones? I have had no luck in finding those shocks in NOS so I am hoping to find a good used pair. It looks like you found NOS side marker reflectors for the front and rear. I talked to Roger Gibson about this issue. He looked at my original ones and said that my fronts were the 2 segment style and that all of the Daytonas he has seen has come with those in the front. It looked like you have the 4 segment versions on the front of your car. Any thoughts on this? The rear ones on my car are the 4 segment style and Roger says that is what he has seen on all of the Daytonas he has worked on. I wonder what everybody else has seen?
2-panel vs. 4-panel reflectors is an issue I don't personally think can be pinned down one way or another. I have seen multiple original cars with both styles front & back, and a mixture -- even from side to side in addition to the front/rear discrepancy Roger has already told you about.
How a car looked when it arrived at the dealership often varied from how it rolled out of Hamtramck, since the housings did get swapped around between cars. In other words, if the cars that rolled out of Hamtramck later in the run all had 4-panel lenses, they might end up with 2-panel lenses from another earlier-built car. Incidentally, front amber lenses & bezels could have been swapped between cars just like the rears (although it might be a little less likely to have happened).
In my opinion, there's no right or wrong answer on your car or anyone else's, unless there are pictures of the car before restoration (and there's still a little wiggle room there because of potential service replacements). Mine had 4-panel lenses on it at all four corners when we took it apart, so that's what I went back with.
:Twocents:
Well I guess like a lot on these cars there is no set rule on the reflectors either. So how about the rear shocks?
I'm trying to find my notes on the shocks. I have originals on 5 of them (cars). Thought I posted the info here....maybe it was Moparts :scratchchin:
Time for another update, and the "end" may be nearing soon.
I stopped by Vance's yesterday to deliver the seat assemblies, and the car is inching towards completion. It's good to see all the little details coming together, and the guys are combing through every inch of the car yet again. There are lots of little nuts and bolts that are being changed out to match what our collection of reference material indicates is "correct" - although that term should honestly be taken out of a Mopar car restorer's vernacular... Hardly ANYTHING is honestly-absolutely-positively-unequivocally "correct" due to the wide variances that are found between years, models, plants and even from car to car on the same assembly line. An attempt is being made to go through everything yet again to eliminate as many causes for heartburn amongst any judges or onlookers who may eventually look at this car.
Speaking of which...
Assuming everything comes together as currently planned, my Daytona will make its official debut at this year's Chryslers at Carlisle show. It's been included in the Building "T" Invitational Display, along with several other members of the DC.com forum (have no idea where everyone will be parked, of course). I have been waiting to mention this in the hopes a deal would come through to display the car on a 4-post lift for the weekend. Just last night the word came down that they don't have room for the lift. I'm still very happy to be included in the display building of course, but I now have very little time to get things together for a "display". Oh well.
I took some more pictures of progress being made (and some yet to come) on the underside, but posting these photos/descriptions will have to wait until later this week. Somewhere in my office the top of my desk is crying out to be found. That's what I get for playing hookey from work to go play with "old car stuff". Hopefully everyone can see the finished product in a little over a week anyway.
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 29, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
Thanks, PT. Just a little longer than I had planned. OK, a LOT longer.
Oh, and my Dad uses a much different adjective than "patient" when referring to me and how long this project has taken. :P
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 29, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 29, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
Congrats as well!, I can only imagine how great that would feel!
:2thumbs:
Hope I can make it this year Geno - Wanna see that Wingy-Thingy!
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 29, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
If the finish date is correct, that's more like 18,004.5 years. :slap:
Quote from: learical1 on June 29, 2011, 01:39:43 PM
Quote from: PocketThunder on June 29, 2011, 11:37:59 AM
Start: November 27, 2006
Finish: June 28, 20011
Congrats Geno! The end is finally here, 4-1/2 years later. You are a very patient man. :2thumbs:
If the finish date is correct, that's more like 18,004.5 years. :slap:
That IS a long time............. But worth it..... Right Geno?.............. Geno?....................... You there?........................ ah heck.............. He's too old to hear at 18,000 years of age...........
Quote from: hemi68charger on June 29, 2011, 01:41:50 PM
He's too old to hear at 18,000 years of age...........
That's just how much I've aged during this restoration.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 29, 2011, 11:27:05 AM
but I now have very little time to get things together for a "display". Oh well.
Always a good thing when the end is in sight. :2thumbs:
Here's part of a display I was going to use when I get my cars done.
She's real quiet,doesn't eat much,but very rude to your friends. :lol:
Look at those hands......Geno, that looks like Olga at the border!
Olga had a figure that more closely resembled an outline of the display shelves to the left of FeverGirl.
Do you think you'll make it this year, Jim? Bringing any one of your cool rides along with you? :drool5:
Congrats on the completing of daytonas restoration
great news, will look for u @ bldg. T next week
Yeah buddy! :cheers:
I call shotgun
Thanks, everybody - I'm pretty stoked about finally getting things wrapped up. There will probably still be a few details that get worked on after having it thoroughly looked over while at the show, but at least everything will be all assembled again. The day this car terrorizes the Missouri backroads again may have to wait a while longer to come, but it'll be driveable again for the first time since 1977.
While I'm posting up here, I'll go ahead and add the latest pictures. These were taken Tuesday, and a lot of things have changed even since these photos were snapped. We didn't lower the car on the hoist, so I don't have any pictures of what they're working out on the topside. These are all things that had been discussed before or were waiting for the chance to get parts replated, etc.
The first pic is one of the adjusting block. We've been told these should be silver, however the metal itself was a heat-treated steel which is normally dark when it's fresh. Vance doesn't know what to do yet with this item, which is a common theme with a lot of the remaining "issues". If anything, he thinks they may have phosphate coated it - but he doesn't remember them being silver (either cad or zinc). We talked about it, which is why I snapped the picture.
In the second picture you can see that the thick washers used with the transmission crossmember mounting bolts are now silver cad - which was expertly pointed out by Jim/maxwellwedge. I was able to confirm Jim's advice when looking at another low mileage original car, and Vance nailed the right look.
The third and fourth picture show differences in the tie rod end clamps. Just because you get "NOS" parts does not mean they're automatically correct. One set of clamps is really "thick" and leaves very little of the bolt showing, whereas the other clamp profile is "thinner" and has more bolt threads showing beyond the nut. Vance also had to source the correct nuts with the locking insert, because the nuts that came with the adjusting sleeve were from a different period.
Vance and I spent a lot of time looking at clips & fasteners while I was there. In the first two pictures, you can see an original, assembly line vapor separator setup such as would have been used on this car. This is how he patterned the setup for my engine. In the second picture you can see a better shot of the stampings that are present on original "Keystone" clamps. Vance scrounged around in his incredible stash of fasteners and found some of these very clamps. He also had some nice original rubber fuel line with the inkstamps still intact, part of which is shown in the third photo.
Oh, and the fan belt dangling in the last photo is not the one we'll use on the car. That's one of the Quanta "rubber band" belts that will roll over and/or fly off the pulleys at engine speeds over about 3500rpm. I have an OEM 2806216 belt with that same look to use - and those (thankfully) don't stretch.
Both you and Mopar John get a round of applause from me. Although I won't be going through as great of detail that you two are, the information and pictures you post are invaluable to me and help my project greatly. :cheers: :2thumbs:
These two are of the correct saddle muffler clamps. We had Q-clamps on the tailpipe extensions for a while, but research shows that (despite what the factory's engineering graphics say is allowable) most cars from this period used regular saddle-style clamps at the muffler and chrome tips. These have the correct nuts, and original clamps can usually be distinguished by a tell-tale bend of metal where some machining or toolwork was done.
Quote from: Richard Cranium on June 30, 2011, 06:50:31 PM
Both you and Mopar John get a round of applause from me. Although I won't be going through as great of detail that you two are, the information and pictures you post are invaluable to me and help my project greatly. :cheers: :2thumbs:
Thanks, Mark - glad to help out. I won't speak for John of course, but I wouldn't encourage people to go to this much trouble on little details... not because I'd like to limit the number of such cars, but because it'll drive you absolutely NUTS! :eek2:
Vance had some different engine mount bolts in the car for a while, and those were questioned. As part of going through the bottomside of the car, correctly plated hardware was swapped out - part of which you can see in the first picture.
The second picture shows the roll pins inserted in the strut rods, along with those really nicely colored-up retainers that Bill Allphin scored for me - thanks again, Bill!
In the third picture you can see transmission bolt hardware that has been detailed & installed. Vance sent quite a bit of this type stuff off to be plated, including black phosphate like you see here - a very common treatment for Chrysler's fasteners & hardware.
One of the things we were questioned about was our spring clamps. Some have stated that the clamps did not have any stampings on them, however Vance pulled out several clamps from his arsenal of original parts that had stampings as you can see in the first two pictures. The smaller clamps read "A30", and the larger ones read "A34".
In the last picture, you can see the original clamp we used along with a really nice original lower radiator hose that Paul Jacobs helped to detail/freshen up.
Also somewhat visible in that last picture is the oil filter. We've had some interesting discussions recently about those. Some contend that the filters were not installed on the engine when it was painted, whereas others say that either the filter was installed, or a rather precise cover was used to shield the adapter's oil filter threads and some of the mating surfaces ONLY up to where the rubber ring fits against the adapter's machined surface. The latter position makes the most sense to Vance, and he tends to think the filters were installed rather than a shield/cover. He points to paint evidence (from original engines) on the adapter's machined surface, right to where the oil filter's rubber gasket would mate. This is one of those details that we may end up agreeing to disagree with some folks who hold a differing opinion. It doesn't make sense that Chrysler would bother too much shielding an oil filter from receiving paint, when it was a disposable/wear item anyway. I have two other "assembly line" filters sitting on the shelf, so I could change one out to suit the judges - however that not only makes a mess on a freshly-detailed engine & K-frame, but I tend to agree with Vance's position anyway.
Vance and I spent some time talking about, of all things, valve stems & caps. Years ago I remember reading some spirited exchanges on Moparts.com between some of the A12 guys about what was correct. The first pic shows the underside of two different lengths of valve stems themselves. The shorter (413) Dill is correct for my car's Road Wheel application. There are no distinguishing marks on any of the valve stems once they're installed and a tire is mounted, so I took the picture of what we're using just to show what they are.
One of the reference books we are (loosely) using states that the correct cap is a Dill "627" - which you can see in the second picture on the right. For the record, the last picture is a bin from Vance's incredible stash of original stuff. He noted that the correct cap found on '69s (and up) is the rounded cap with no lettering - and he has tons of them in that bin. Just in case we take too much flack and need to do so, he's throwing a complete set of the 1968 & earlier Dill numbered caps in a box to swap out rather than take a points hit.
I took some random pictures of things Vance and his guys have been working on. Originally, I had purchased a new set of cat whiskers (inner & outer door glass weatherstripping). When they pulled them out a while back, they noticed the stainless strip that runs along the inner edge of the piece is noticeably thinner on the reproductions than the originals. In the first picture, I held the reproduction piece (at the bottom) up against an original (at the top) to show the difference. They're barely over half as big as the originals, and won't be used on this car. I found a different supplier, and even those are not as nice as we'd like. Vance has several originals in a box that they will try to clean & polish up before resorting to reproductions. The original quarter glass inner weatherstripping is still actually quite nice, so the only ones that really stick out like a sore thumb are the ones that fit up against the upper door pads. We'll only use the reproductions if none of the ones we have can be salvaged - which Vance seems to think is quite possible.
The second picture is an area we've been debating about for some time. My car wasn't in good enough shape to use as a forensic pattern, and my K-member seal was MIA too, so we had to rely on Vance's recollections and input from David Patik as to how to handle this area as far as overspray goes. David confirmed Vance's memories of the K-member seal having been installed when the nosecone was painted, and the brace which goes from the radiator yoke to the K-member itself got a fair amount of overspray (as did the K-member seal itself). Vance is getting ready to do all the overspray in the engine compartment itself, so we went over this area just to make sure it was detailed right the first time. This area will look much different in a day or two, but I took a picture to remind myself of what is yet to come.
The third picture is of the shock absorber mounting plates. Vance had cleaned these all up, but hadn't yet installed the burn marks where the shock mounting stud was welded into place. These are really nice, unpitted pieces which is something of a rarity to find (they came from Desert Valley A.P., which explains how they survived), but they still need just a touch more detailing work.
In the first picture, you can see that he has added the thick washers to go with the 12 point bolts used for the steering box. The hardware has also been given the right black phos treatment too.
The second picture is a reminder of two things that need to happen... Vance was not happy with the reproduction brake lines, so they had made a much better facsimile of the originals, however at the time they didn't have the correct tall fitting at the wheel cylinder. While I was there, we got another set of lines on the way, and if these don't suit them they'll simply cut the line to allow them to remove the tall fitting. All they'll have to do is flatten out or remove the flared end, remove the short fitting, install the tall one, and re-flare the end. The other thing that needs to happen is to detail the Dana axle plastic plug area. Vance will remove paint behind the plug to mimic how the plug would have shielded the area during paint. We've also read that either red, green or blue plastic plugs are considered correct, so we'll have the choice of using a small piece of a red one or a halfway-decent green plug that he still has in the stash of stuff.
The third photo was intended to show the front cylinder head area where the lifting bracket was attached during paint. There would be a shadowline where this bracket was at, although you cannot see it as well once the alternator is installed.
The last picture posted for this batch shows the fender bolt hole that has not been filled. In Vance's experience, he has seen these bolts omitted by Creative Industries' workers. He had originally intended to leave mine out, to mimic how Chris Sauer's low-mileage Daytona was built. My car, on the other hand, had both bolts installed as shown in some of the "before" pictures posted here and elsewhere. As a result, I really wanted these bolts installed. Creatives workers, at least in some of the cars, did take the time to daub black-out paint on these bolts - like the Hamtramck workers normally did. Vance will be working on this area yet, when he has the paint gun out to do the overspray and other remaining paint detail work.
Wow Gene a lot has changed on the car since the last time I saw it. Then again if I'm thinking right, it has been over a year since I made the last trip up there to see the car. I had to miss out a on a few trips this year with the new found sports in my son's life.
Yeah, I'd be on sports taxi duty right now if it weren't for the fact my oldest daughter is home from college and got off work early from her job today. I know how that goes, but your son's teams are a lot more successful than Jonathan's - so we don't go to nearly as many tournaments, etc.
I'll be a little put out if you don't stop by sometime to visit the car when it's done. I know firsthand that you've driven all night without any sleep just to crawl through some frigid, dark, damp and dusty garage to look at the pieces of an aero car... At least my shop has heat, good lighting and a hoist!
Deal, I'm fine with swinging over to your place some time to check it out once its finished. I still owe Jim a trip up to his place too. I'm waiting on Olga to retire though.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2011, 07:23:47 PM
Vance and I spent some time talking about, of all things, valve stems & caps. Years ago I remember reading some spirited exchanges on Moparts.com between some of the A12 guys about what was correct. The first pic shows the underside of two different lengths of valve stems themselves. The shorter (413) Dill is correct for my car's Road Wheel application. There are no distinguishing marks on any of the valve stems once they're installed and a tire is mounted, so I took the picture of what we're using just to show what they are.
One of the reference books we are (loosely) using states that the correct cap is a Dill "627" - which you can see in the second picture on the right. For the record, the last picture is a bin from Vance's incredible stash of original stuff. He noted that the correct cap found on '69s (and up) is the rounded cap with no lettering - and he has tons of them in that bin. Just in case we take too much flack and need to do so, he's throwing a complete set of the 1968 & earlier Dill numbered caps in a box to swap out rather than take a points hit.
Gene, make sure you count the splines on the valve stem cap, some have 2 more than others & a dead give away that they are incorrect.
(Just kidding.....LOL) :lol:
The car looks great & I can't believe the amazing amount of patience you & others have to get all these details correct. I'm looking forward to seeing the car in person. :cheers:
Quote from: Old Moparz on July 01, 2011, 08:16:34 AM
Gene, make sure you count the splines on the valve stem cap, some have 2 more than others & a dead give away that they are incorrect.
:lol:
Y'know, say that with a straight face to the right group of people, and not only might a couple of them nod along with you as if they knew that all along, but most of them would be slinking away later to count splines for themselves...
Quote from: hemigeno on July 01, 2011, 09:42:18 AM
Quote from: Old Moparz on July 01, 2011, 08:16:34 AM
Gene, make sure you count the splines on the valve stem cap, some have 2 more than others & a dead give away that they are incorrect.
:lol:
Y'know, say that with a straight face to the right group of people, and not only might a couple of them nod along with you as if they knew that all along, but most of them would be slinking away later to count splines for themselves...
I may just start a topic on the A12 forum at Moparts. :smilielol:
Looks great Gene and I know it will be a spectacular debut.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2011, 07:54:49 PM
The last picture posted for this batch shows the fender bolt hole that has not been filled. In Vance's experience, he has seen these bolts omitted by Creative Industries' workers. He had originally intended to leave mine out, to mimic how Chris Sauer's low-mileage Daytona was built. My car, on the other hand, had both bolts installed as shown in some of the "before" pictures posted here and elsewhere. As a result, I really wanted these bolts installed. Creatives workers, at least in some of the cars, did take the time to daub black-out paint on these bolts - like the Hamtramck workers normally did. Vance will be working on this area yet, when he has the paint gun out to do the overspray and other remaining paint detail work.
Gene, do you have a pic of how this area "should" look like? Bolt black out etc
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on July 01, 2011, 05:30:52 PM
Gene, do you have a pic of how this area "should" look like? Bolt black out etc
:yesnod:
This is from Jim B.'s "DocTona" and is probably the best example I have in the ol' files. You can actually see where the brush smeared blackout on the wheel lip moulding too.
Nice....Ill be blacking mine out as well.....always wondered why that bolt & tab stood out as much as it did. Is it paint or undercoating overspray?
This would apply to all models or only cars that were optioned with the undercoating?
I would also assume the parking brake cable would also be blacked out in the drivers side fenderwell? I just put a new one in....looks pretty, but it stands out as well
It was a B-Body thing. :lol:
It was done with black paint and a brush....undercoated or non u/coated.
The e-brake cable was installed before the wheelwell sound deadener went in and should of got nailed.
Here is another original car.
Thanks! Another cheap project ;)
Geno, will you have it at Indy on the 29th of July?
Quote from: maxwellwedge on July 02, 2011, 10:10:33 AM
It was a B-Body thing. :lol:
It was done with black paint and a brush....undercoated or non u/coated.
The e-brake cable was installed before the wheelwell sound deadener went in and should of got nailed.
Here is another original car.
Thanks Jimbo............ I will be adding this this tidbit to the Daytona...
Wow I blacked mine out years back. Its good to be ahead of the curve for once!
Here is a picture of the passengers side fender bolt area on an original Daytona fender. The second picture is of the same area on our B5 Daytona. While I was taking pictures of this area I decided to see what the original fender bolts looked like on our 1970 GTX dragcar which has front wheel opening moldings. It looks like this black touch up was done after the moldings were on. It also looks like this car may have been sprayed on rather than a brush. Also quite sloopy as it's also on the molding!
By the way credits to the original post! Great details Gene!
Geno.When you recover from the weekend trip,give us the skinny on how the Daytonas maiden voyage went.What sort of reception it got and how many magazines I need to buy showing its coverage. :icon_smile_big:
Thanks for allowing me in the presense of your Daytona Gene :) It's a work of art :coolgleamA:
Congrats and good luck with the OE scoring. :2thumbs:
THAT'S SEXY!!!!!!!!!!! :drool5:
It was the best car in the show !
A true work of art !
looks great :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Big Bird Rons barn find superbird was to be on display somewhere at carlisle
Gene.The car looks awesome.To be "finished "with it is a relief I know
Ron Big birds car
https://picasaweb.google.com/tfinoke/Carlisle2011#
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29958205@N05/5920503575/in/photostream/
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 11, 2011, 03:47:41 PM
Ron Big birds car
https://picasaweb.google.com/tfinoke/Carlisle2011#
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29958205@N05/5920503575/in/photostream/
go team green
Truly amazing car Gene,long road but worth the reward!!!!!! Another good luck on the OE judging!!! :2thumbs:
Well,,,,the suspense is getting tough
I saw it wednesday evening and for one reason I didn't think it was Genes car ( he knows what I'm talking about )
If I would have had time, I would have loved to cross over the ropes for a closer look, but alas it was not meant to be.
btw, did you find the bulb ?
Awesome Geno !!!!! :2thumbs:
I bet you were like an over-protective 1st time proud Daddy.........
That was the best crappiest car in the show! ;)
Thanks for the time spent explaining all the "defects" as well Gene! Hopefully you come out on top for the OE's
Found this pix over on Moparts......Looks great Gene!!!
(http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a402/CentralCarolinaMopars/Carlisle%202011/IMG_0007.jpg)
Thanks, everyone!
I'm in the process of recovering from the last week... well, actually, the past month has been chock full of enough car-related activities to get my fix for quite a while. Carlisle was a lot of fun, but a lot of work too. I have not received any official feedback from the OE judging that was performed at the show, but hope to hear something in the next couple of weeks. Having been through this process now, I can't say it was either any better or worse than I thought - although perhaps I should hold my opinions in reserve until the results are obtained...
For the folks who were able to see the car in person, thank you very much for the many kind comments and for not making fun of me (too much). Overall, the car was well-received by the onlookers, although there were a few who regaled us with some wild tales about how they owned one just like it but with a factory-installed 383, etc. etc. That's always interesting. A whole lot of people questioned the overspray and other details that are not often seen on a restored car. One gent, after being told that the car was only finished on Tuesday, said "that explains all the overspray in the engine compartment... you guys really WERE in a hurry to get ready for the show".
Quote from: johntpr on July 11, 2011, 02:37:34 PM
It was the best car in the show !
A true work of art !
You're too kind, John. I'm sure next year we'll be looking at an even better Y2 car that will make mine look like the used car that it is.
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on July 11, 2011, 08:09:36 PM
That was the best crappiest car in the show! ;)
Thanks for the time spent explaining all the "defects" as well Gene! Hopefully you come out on top for the OE's
:lol: Ugly in all the right places...
Quote from: gtx6970 on July 11, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
Well,,,,the suspense is getting tough
I saw it wednesday evening and for one reason I didn't think it was Genes car ( he knows what I'm talking about )
If I would have had time, I would have loved to cross over the ropes for a closer look, but alas it was not meant to be.
btw, did you find the bulb ?
Bill, you'd have been more than welcome to clamber over that high-security plastic chain and take as close a look as you cared. Glad I got to catch up with you some - and no, I did not find a correct 1157 bulb at the show. There's a ziplock bag of 10 vintage bulbs sitting here on my desk already though, courtesy of Davtona (thanks again, Dave!).
Thanks again everyone... I'll post up the couple of pictures I took a little later. No up-close detail shots of the finished product yet, that'll have to wait until I get time to pull it out of the trailer and tucked away. The sad thing is, I'm already formulating a list of things in the back of my mind that I still want to "tweak". :slap:
Congrats on finally getting your Daytona back Gene! Hope it turned out as you wanted.......( still think it needs a proper detailing with a scotch brite pad & WD40! ) :cheers: Have you plans for the Brickyard 400 Show???
Cheers!
Steve
Quote from: hemigeno on July 12, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
For the folks who were able to see the car in person, thank you very much for the many kind comments and for not making fun of me (too much). Overall, the car was well-received by the onlookers, although there were a few who regaled us with some wild tales about how they owned one just like it but with a factory-installed 383, etc. etc. That's always interesting.
Get used to it. You kind of expect this thing, but it is amazing is when you hear it at a Mopar show. "My brother had one of those. It was just like it. Except it didn't have the nose or wing. But it was just like it."
QuoteA whole lot of people questioned the overspray and other details that are not often seen on a restored car. One gent, after being told that the car was only finished on Tuesday, said "that explains all the overspray in the engine compartment... you guys really WERE in a hurry to get ready for the show".
That's a good one. Congrats on a successful debut.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 11, 2011, 03:47:41 PM
Ron Big birds car
https://picasaweb.google.com/tfinoke/Carlisle2011#
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29958205@N05/5920503575/in/photostream/
awesome pictures , thanks for posting the links :yesnod: :cheers: :cheers: :popcrn:
Great to see that you made it to Carlisle. I wish I could have been there to see your car in person. The different part numbers for the left and right Charger roof emblems is hard to understand as it seems they are interchangable anyway. Did you find an NOS console body for your car or did you use a nice original piece? I just picked up an NOS 4 speed console in black along with an NOS shift boot and NOS finned end plate. I would like to trade for an NOS automatic console for my car. If I cant find one I guess I would consider selling it. Let me know if you know of somebody that would trade or would want to buy it.
Tony, I was figuring you'd pop by at Carlisle sometime, and am sorry you couldn't make it. Someone mentioned a V2 black interior Hemi auto Daytona was in the show field, and I was thinking for a split second that perhaps my Daytona wasn't the only one that made a debut at the show. Oh well, you'll be there soon I hope.
Congrats on the console find. We had a pretty nice base to work with, although it took me quite a while to find top plates with good woodgrain inserts. Off the top of my head I don't know of anyone with a NOS auto console, but I didn't know of anyone with a 4-speed one either (before now).
Several folks have made it a point to ask about the outcome of the judging performed while at this year's Carlisle show. Let me be clear - the organization that looked at my car while at the show has no connection whatsoever with the organizers of the Chryslers at Carlisle show or Carlisle Events, as the judging was something I had arranged to happen there more out of logistical convenience than anything else.
[Edit - As a further clarification, this was also not the SME program that had been Carlisle's top tier judging program for the past 5 +/- years or so. Carlisle Events had decided earlier in the year not to re-sign with SME, so that group was not involved.]
I will not go into detail publicly about why this happened, but shortly after the show's conclusion I requested the judging organization to cease completing the scorecard for the car. It's still in the works to have the car reviewed by some current members of the same group, and there will undoubtedly be some minor improvements made over the winter based on accumulated feedback. Paul Jacobs is hopefully stopping by the shop next Sunday to take a close look a the car and give me his assessment. I had hoped to have some other folks who know these cars well also spend some time looking it over, but at least one of those opportunities would be difficult if not impossible to arrange. So, I'm now considering other options.
Contrary to my earlier plans, I've recently reserved a slot in next year's Mopar Nationals OE judging. Those that know me well will understand how sincere I am in stating I could absolutely not care less about "competitions", or whose car scored what in comparison to mine. At the moment, a judged competition such as at the 'Nats appears to be the only way to receive some sort of standardized/accepted assessment of the car's condition. It's never been my goal to do anything with my car's restoration other than to do the best historically-correct restoration we could, with whatever parts could be found. Now that the car's "first round" of restoration work has been completed, we can figure out the (hopefully small list of) things that aren't quite right - which is the stage I'm at now - and decide if they can or should be changed.
In the meantime, the car is safely tucked away in the HemiHouse. I haven't been able to do much with the car until I get back up to Vance's place to bring back all my extra parts - including the reproduction tires & wheels that will be the car's normal setup. That MIGHT happen the weekend after next, but my fall calendar is rapidly filling up (especially if I add in the Monster Mopar show).
As I get some feedback from Paul & others, I'll post up the things that will be addressed as things move forward. In the meantime, here are the few photos I took right before heading out for Carlisle, PA from Michigan. Too many things happening to worry much about the camera!
I only took a few shots of it while on display inside Building T, and here they are:
Gene,
The car looks great and hopefully it receives it's well deserved recogintion
Glad to hear it's finally back home where it belongs, safely tucked away. And I can only imagine the trials and tribulations on ones sanity to bring a car to this level.
Good talking to you last week or so.
Bill
Gene.Where did you get the transport booties for the car tires?Are they spare tire covers for a Bronco?
wow i love your car:)
I :drool5: over the Daytona as well. It sure looked good. I had no idea it was your car as I would have liked to meet you and say Hi :wave:
Dave
Quote from: jonw29 on September 05, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
transport booties for the car tires?
Can't see how those are gonna work in the snow. :lol:
Looks fantastic.With all the details you've gone thru there can't be much to upgrade.Except maybe a "T" handle shift knob. :D
Thanks again everyone - I'm quite relieved the car is in its current state, although I know better than to prounce it "done".
Quote from: jonw29 on September 05, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
Gene.Where did you get the transport booties for the car tires?Are they spare tire covers for a Bronco?
Very close guess, Jon. Those are indeed spare tire covers, just "officially" sized for a Suzuki Samauri. That was the closest size I found online, although there are places that will custom-make about anything. Even though I carefully measured the F70x14 tires before ordering, these are a REALLY tight fit. It takes a bit of finagling to install them even when the car is up on a lift, but they do go on. I've seen other cars with similar tire covers, and theirs fit considerably looser. Whether there is an advantage to one approach or another, I dunno... but since these work (after a fashion), they're the ones I'm keeping for now.
I have been expecting (Fearless Leader) Troy or Old Moparz/Bob to post a picture of my car with diapers photoshopped around the tires. They threatened to do so at Carlisle, as having those covers over the tires/wheels type-casts the car squarely in a trailer queen role... maybe a even a diva trailer queen at that.
Quote from: UFO on September 05, 2011, 09:09:06 PM
Can't see how those are gonna work in the snow. :lol:
:smilielol:
Quote from: UFO on September 05, 2011, 09:09:06 PM
Looks fantastic.With all the details you've gone thru there can't be much to upgrade.Except maybe a "T" handle shift knob. :D
Brian, you know I don't shy away from a little controversy - but it takes more than a couple of road test photographs to make a believer out of me.
What was the Chrysler part number for the Hurst T handle again? :whistling:
Car looks fantastic only thing I didnt see on the restoration was the front plate bracket.Is MO a 1 plate state
Quote from: nascarxx29 on September 06, 2011, 09:00:48 AM
Car looks fantastic only thing I didnt see on the restoration was the front plate bracket.Is MO a 1 plate state
Thanks - and good eyes on the bracket. Missouri was a one plate state -- in 1969 anyway. Both of the front plate brackets are in the trunk.
Beautiful Gene. I can't wait to see it in person.
I must say again the pictures don't do this car justice, You truly need to see it in person. It is truly like a trip back to the show room in 69 :cheers:
that car come out great . congratulations on it Geno .
But where's the burnout video :cheers:
Quote from: BigBlockSam on September 06, 2011, 03:02:34 PM
that car come out great . congratulations on it Geno .
But where's the burnout video :cheers:
dude :slap: :slap: :slap:
Quote from: moparstuart on September 06, 2011, 03:44:52 PM
Quote from: BigBlockSam on September 06, 2011, 03:02:34 PM
that car come out great . congratulations on it Geno .
But where's the burnout video :cheers:
dude :slap: :slap: :slap:
:lol:
That would be some rather expensive incense (tire smoke).
Thanks, Rene! :cheers:
:cheers:
:scope: .......... awesome Daytona Geno :yesnod: :drool5:
Quote
What was the Chrysler part number for the Hurst T handle again? :whistling:
Actually in the Hustle stuff catalog.Just a little off as this one is from 1973.
Wonder if it's in the '70 catalog?
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/_1973Hi-PoParts-03.shtml?load_img=33
Quote from: 41husk on September 06, 2011, 09:58:44 AM
I must say again the pictures don't do this car justice, You truly need to see it in person. It is truly like a trip back to the show room in 69 :cheers:
:iagree:
:cheers: Geno just saw the pics of your finished Daytona it looks fantastic I only hope our green one Downunder looks half as nice when its finished.Congratulations. John father of Tim and partner in the Daytona in Australia Project
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thanks again for the compliments everyone. Time for another installment in what may end up being the never-ending saga of this car's restoration.
A couple of weeks ago, Paul Jacobs was kind enough to take a detour along with his fiancee out to my shop in Union, MO. With the experience and knowledge Paul has on Daytonas in particular, I was interested in his thoughts on my car. It's too easy when you've been working on a project for (literally) years, to overlook stuff that might jump out and be painfully obvious to others. It's not that I doubt Vance's expertise, but he wasn't necessarily the person who put every nut & bolt back in place. Despite my intentions to leave plenty of time in the schedule for a thorough review of the finished product before Carlisle, it just didn't work out. Why am I not surpised... :brickwall:
Anyway, I was aware of a few items that were not 100% correct on the car. Paul's 2+ hours looking the car over was as valuable as any other time spent due to his experience and fresh perspective. Thanks again, Paul - and I'll have to find a way to make it up to you and your fiancee.
As Paul noted an item, I took the time to snap a photo to remind myself of the area. This made sure I didn't leave anything out. I also wrote up a list along with an explanation of the item before forgetting what was said about it. In the next several posts we'll go through the photos and explain what's up, along with my plans.
The first two pictures below show a stack of shims used to fit the front fenders to the chassis. During the time these cars were made, the shims used in this area resembled round washers and were not square as you see here. The square ones apparently didn't get used until sometime in the mid '70s. I have a theory about why the square shims are there, which goes back to some body damage the car received while being driven daily by the second owner. Why the shims are there doesn't make any difference, as they "should" be round ones even though these work fine. The fix isn't an easy one. It may take removing the door, backing out the nut/stud from the bottom, replacing the shims with round ones, making sure the fit is correct, reinstalling the stud and then masking everything off to apply a proper amount of paint/overspray.
In the third picture, you can see some hood-to-hinge bolts that have an unusual marking for this area. Paul seems convinced that this particular manufacturer's bolts were normally found on Ford products. My guess about why these bolts are in this location has to do with the owner immediately prior to Davtona... this gent (David June) was a big Ford guy, and my Daytona was the only Chrysler product he ever owned according to what he told Davtona. He's also the guy who removed the original crispy hood and replaced it with the blue '70 Charger hood that spent MANY years on the car while in cold storage. Chances are, he grabbed some bolts from his FoMoCo supplies to insert in the hood when the change was made. There was a considerable amount of heat damage to the hood near the rear, which may have frozen the original hood bolts in place and/or weakened the hood hinge springs to the point he decided to replace them (the hood hinges were definitely replaced). It's possible he never bothered trying to separate the hood from its hinges and just chucked the whole thing in the scrap pile. At any rate, the bolts in that picture need to be swapped out for some with more "acceptable" head markings.
The last picture is not Vance's fault. Back in '04 or '05 during one of my Swap Meet adventures I came across an absolutely mint set of upper door pads in the Great Lakes NOS booth at the 'Nats. Decent price, so I picked them up and put them in the Daytona's parts pile. Fast forward 7 years, and Vance is finally ready to install the upper door pads a day or two before Carlisle - and I had told him I had a pair of minties in a box. He pulls them out, and notices right off the bat that they're '70s rather than '69s (the difference is in the grain pattern). What do you do two days before a major show like that? Put on your best pair and move along... which is what he did. There were at least two other correct sets of '69s sitting on the shelf, but both pairs had minor defects which would have taken more time than we had to repair. When I went back to Vance's a week after PJ's visit, Vance and I looked over the sets of '69 pads and there is a pair that should work fine once a little TLC is applied. I've got some feelers out to see if anyone has a mint pair that wouldn't require as much work, but it won't be a problem to correct this issue. Blame me, not Vance.
In the first picture, you can see a hole at the top of the door weatherstrip which is missing a screw. There are actually two holes that don't have screws near each side's top weatherstrip termination. One of those holes has an explanation, the other just got missed. The one in the picture is missing because NOS weatherstripping was not pre-drilled for that particular screwhole, for whatever reason. Maybe the location varied at times, I dunno - but there wasn't a hole so a screw wasn't put in by Vance's crew. It's no big trick to add the hole and screw(s), but that's why this picture is included.
The second shot is something I knew about before the show. Very early in the restoration process we sent the instrument cluster out to David Patik for refurbishing (that was my choice, being a loyal customer of PCG for years). David does great work, but his process utilizes decals for the instrument gauge faces rather than re-silkscreening them. It's possible to see the difference by looking at the gauge face edges, where a faint outline of the decal's edge is visible. We will have to remove the cluster and send it out to someone for re-restoration to eliminate the points deduction. It's a little bit of work and expense, but one that I should have handled differently from the start. IIRC, Mike Mancini does correct silkscreen gauge sets, so I'll probably be giving him a call once we're to that point.
The purpose of the third picture is to point out the differences in wiring harness wrapping. Most of the harnesses in the engine compartment were NOS pieces I had been fortunate enough to find. The only reproduction (or non-OEM/refurbished) harness on the car is the reverse light harness visible in that photo. Paul pointed out that while the harness itself is correct, one way to identify a repro is by the non-adhesive wrapping. Reproductions use a material that is thinner than the original stuff, and that is evidenced by the way it contours around the wire and/or contains wrinkles that would not be present with the thicker OE material. Paul suggested buying any old/original dash harness, just to remove the wrapping. I could then either re-wrap the reproduction harness (possible) or find an original harness whose wiring is still usable. Paul wasn't sure too many original harnesses survived intact because of the engine heat they would be subjected to on a regular basis.
Sharp eyes will likely note in the last picture that the bottom door plugs are missing. They simply didn't get installed before Carlisle, and none of us noticed it before. The plugs are probably sitting around here in a box somewhere!
The first picture was to remind me that Paul thought the console lid could be adjusted to function a bit better. We both agreed that they NEVER fit or worked perfectly from the start, but it did open/close kinda tightly. Should be no big deal to adjust, although doing so without skinning up the console body on the backside can prove difficult. That may have already happened.
The second photo shows the negative battery cable. I was painfully aware that the positive cable was a reproduction item, but had thought the negative cable was pretty much correct. For the most part it is, although the telltale flag of it being a later-style NORS part is the "MOPAR" lettering molded into the battery post clamp/terminal. Paul seems to think he has a couple of correct negative cables that just need to be refurbished a bit, and he still has a NOS positive cable of mine that is awaiting a bit of re-work. That should take care of my battery cable issues completely.
The last two photos depict the same issue. When fitting the taillight housings to the tailpanel, I had been given some more correct appearing seal material which I thought would mimic the original gasket material better than the reproductions commonly available. While it does appear much closer to the originals, I either asked for the wrong thickness or this other material is not as dense as the originals. Either way, the result is the same. You can see in the last photo that the taillight bezels protrude just a bit too far. Paul thought he had multiple sets of original/used gaskets back at his shop that were still useable, and he thought he could spare a set for me. That should make this an easy fix. There really aren't any other variables in how these should fit, just the thickness and compressability of the gasket material.
Wow!!!! Looks great. Did you end up going to Monster Mopar?
The first photo is to remind me of two things... one of which I should have handled before now. The "No" written on the taillight housing was actually mentioned earlier in this thread as being more associated with Charger 500's than Daytonas. I had intended to wipe this off before Carlisle, I just didn't remember. The real purpose for the photo was to remind me that the trunk weatherstripping not only needs to be re-glued (it has come loose along both sides) but needs to be glued with the yellowish-brown adhesive normally seen back then.
The next photo was to remind me of a masking line that had not been sanded/buffed out of existence. Most all other evidences of the car's paint sequence have been blended out of existence, but this is one that was missed. No big deal, but since it's there it was documented.
The last two photos depict some bolts on the firewall that were pointed out as incorrect. Really sharp-eyed thread viewers will recall that the bolts in these two pictures differ from those shown earlier in photos from previous stages. One of the resources I had given to Vance in preparation for Carlisle and the judging it was to receive was a Fastener's Guide. While that is an interesting book, I was cautioned by a number of different people that it contained errors. Not knowing which entries are correct and which contain errors, I gave it to Vance and suggested that he follow it unless it was a blatant error. These electrical component bolts for the firewall are a classic example of where Vance followed that book rather than relying on his expertise. Paul J. confirmed that 1969 cars from this period should have the style of bolt Vance took out in favor of what the Guide indicated was correct... it should be a similar bolt, but with one of a couple different head markings and a free-spinning but slightly serrated washer. Apparently this style of bolt created a better ground for the components, and the style you see here is correct for 1968 and at least some years prior to then... just not on a late '69 car. When I mentioned this topic to Vance, I was already braced for the "I told you so" look that was immediately sent my way. Oh well. We'll dig up the removed bolts (already plated) and put 'em back in.
Also visible in the last photo is a brown wire going to the starter relay. Paul said that the reproduction early-issue M&H harness that I got from Frank Badalson is a really, really nice piece with only one deficiency... that brown wire should be a darkish green color. Were it not for that distinction, these might be difficult to tell apart from a very nice original part. Why they chose brown, who knows. Maybe they had a heat-discolored example to use as a pattern? :shruggy:
Quote from: 41husk on September 30, 2011, 02:21:15 PM
Wow!!!! Looks great. Did you end up going to Monster Mopar?
Thanks, Allen. I had indeed planned to attend MMW and take the Daytona, but could not make it this year for work reasons. There were several things I would have needed to do to the car, not the least of which was to change out the tires and wheels as well as re-glue the trunk weatherstripping. Due to some work and school commitments, I flat ran out of time the week before the show to make all that happen. I didn't pull the rip cord on my plans until around Thursday at noon, even though arrangements (and payment) had alread been made for the tent by the aero cars as usual. First time I've missed the show since sometime in the mid '90s.
Sorry to here that. I have not missed many since I got out of the Navy 1989.
Hey Geno - Here are the fasteners I have on all my original 69's.
After we finished up looking at the exterior, engine, trunk and passenger compartments I put the car up on a 2-post lift here at the shop so Paul could scrutinize the underside. In the first picture, Paul indicated the rubber fuel line here at the chassis should probably have a solid Keystone clamp rather than a squeeze clamp. Vance has a take-off (i.e. assembly-line) vapor separator with all its clamps still in place, and he had followed the pattern it displayed in what you see here. That's not to say very many cars originally had squeeze clamps, and that's not anything I'd be dogmatic about in the first place. It's easy enough to put a Keystone clamp here. There are other issues on my car that go against the grain on which I'm much more confident, and those are the areas where I'll choose to stick to my guns and be different. Not on this issue.
The second photo doesn't indicate anything wrong, apart from some leaking brake fluid that Paul pointed out. I hadn't looked at the underside of the car since right before Carlisle, or gone around looking for stuff like this anyway. While the car was still up on the lift, I gave the fittings a couple of solid tugs with a set of flare wrenches. Hopefully this issue has been resolved, but it's something to keep an eye on. More of a maintenance issue than anything else. There are a couple of more such things, as you'll see.
My third photo posted here was to show the rear axle assembly. Paul's opinion is that it is too glossy compared to very low mileage originals he's documented. I won't argue the point, although I'm wondering if there are other chassis components on the car which are also too glossy (K-frame? :shruggy: ).
The last photo is a bit of a sore spot with me, and I took it to remind me about the exhaust H-pipe. Paul pointed out the way it looked even before the car was up on the lift, as it's pretty noticeable. Vance painted it with a satin high temperature clear, which he swears will flatten out over time & with mutiple heat cycles, to be less glossy than it is now. At the moment, it sticks out like a sore thumb. While it may be true that the sheen will flatten out, I am not sure I've ever been comfortable with this treatment. I respect his attempt to preserve this NOS H-pipe (which definitely did not come cheap), but I think there are better ways to protect it without the visual evidence as currently seen. Something will eventually have to be done with this, although it's not necessarily hurting anything at the moment.
Many - (not all) I see are date coded EB.
All are keystone clamped on the one end.
This is Disco's
A little trick on the exhaust is to take a rag soaked with MP50 and run it over the pipe. Fire it up (outside!!) and the stuf burns into the pipe and looks great.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 02:49:24 PM
Hey Geno - Here are the fasteners I have on all my original 69's.
Thanks for the photo - and that looks just like what WAS on the car until right before the show. I did note that your engine ground cable has a different bolt type. Check out the photo (same one posted from July 2010 just cropped differently), where you can see some of the bolts installed at the time.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 02:57:01 PM
Many - (not all) I see are date coded EB.
All are keystone clamped on the one end.
Here is Disco's
Good stuff! :2thumbs:
I think "EB" was a manufacturer, like "KV"? :shruggy: It was an original piece of hose, although I can't say the markings were not reapplied. We found a few pieces that only needed a light cleaning and no re-stamps. Not sure which ones are which now, to be honest. The one in my pic looks pretty nice to be original.
Disco
Typically the bolt holding the ground strap to the firewall is a "solid" head/washer (non-spin) with serrations on the bottom of the head.
Doc --- EB No date
I always thought KV, EB etc. were the manufacturer....others seem to think it is a hose rating.
Last post from Paul's visit...
The first three photos were really of maintenance items Paul noticed... including brake fluid seeping out and down the rear backing plates. Also of note in this general area, although it might not be real visible in those photos, is a very slight bit of PVC sealant (big no-no) from when the axle seals were installed. Those were originally gasketed without that type of sealant, so we'll either have to make sure no sealant shows, or re-install them with the original style gaskets (hard to keep them from leaking that way).
The third picture shows some fluid seepage again, this time from the steering box. Paul noted that it is a heckuva lot easier to install 90 or 140 weight lube in the steering boxes, but the originals were packed with something similar to wheel bearing grease. Very thick, and not subject to this type of seepage. I'm not sure if it's feasible to disassemble the whole steering gearbox as an assembly and pack it with grease during re-assembly (like the original assembly was done), but we'll noodle on this subject. Doing so might make the steering effort that much harder also, but these cars were never made with creature comforts in mind, were they?
The last picture is something that won't be addressed, but it's something Paul and I talked about. The floor pans and other ribbed floor surfaces often had drips of primer that were baked on after the dip tank process. Most of the time, those drips shrivelled up to a fraction of the size you see here. The originals were still there, just not in that shape. I don't think it's necessary to re-do the underside of the car for what little benefit there is to be had, but it's something to note if nothing else. Same thing goes for the sound deadener / undercoating. While the product/materials and application method currently displayed on the car is "usual and customary" in the current restoration world, some folks have been able to duplicate the look of the original undercoating a bit better in certain situations. Those methods have their faults, flaws and limitations too, so it probably boils down to a choice of what is worth the time/effort/money to address. By trying to make a change on this, I could solve one problem and end up creating another. Unless something odd happens, both the primer drips and undercoating will remain on the car exactly as they are.
The Dana appears a littly glossy in the photo's - hard to say.
They were fairly glossy when new - but not a 100% straight gloss. 15% flattening looks just right.
Original drips under the gas tank area. Similar all over under the car. They were plenty big and similar to yours....No suicide watch over that one! :pity:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
The Dana appears a littly glossy in the photo's - hard to say.
They were fairly glossy when new - but not a 100% straight gloss. 15% flattening looks just right.
My little toy camera doesn't capture things too well at times, but in real life the axle is indeed pretty glossy. It's a subjective thing to a degree... what's just right for one guy might be considered still too glossy for another. I don't know if there was any flattening of the paint on the Dana or not, but according to Paul it's too far off to let it slide.
How 'bout the K-frames... same as the Dana, or glossy?
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 03:25:44 PM
Original drips under the gas tank area. Similar all over under the car. They were plenty big and similar to yours....No suicide watch over that one! :pity:
Based on the V2 overspray, is that on Disco? That trunk floor is NICE! :bow:
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
The Dana appears a littly glossy in the photo's - hard to say.
They were fairly glossy when new - but not a 100% straight gloss. 15% flattening looks just right.
My little toy camera doesn't capture things too well at times, but in real life the axle is indeed pretty glossy. It's a subjective thing to a degree... what's just right for one guy might be considered still too glossy for another. I don't know if there was any flattening of the paint on the Dana or not, but according to Paul it's too far off to let it slide.
How 'bout the K-frames... same as the Dana, or glossy?
K-Frames - Anywhere from 12-25% is fair game.
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 03:25:44 PM
Original drips under the gas tank area. Similar all over under the car. They were plenty big and similar to yours....No suicide watch over that one! :pity:
Based on the V2 overspray, is that on Disco? That trunk floor is NICE! :bow:
Yup - Disco -You can't argue with 16,000 miles on a garaged car.
Earlier this week, my wife stopped by with our two youngest boys to let them have a look at the Daytona. It was her first opportunity to take a gander at the finished product also. While they were there, I snapped a few photos.
Max looks like a natural behind the wheel, but he did NOT like being perched up on the wing.
Josh (the youngest), LOVED being up there. He'll probably be the daredevil of the two, but Max will be his wheelman.
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 04:07:30 PM
Earlier this week, my wife stopped by with our two youngest boys to let them have a look at the Daytona. It was her first opportunity to take a gander at the finished product also. While they were there, I snapped a few photos.
Max looks like a natural behind the wheel, but he did NOT like being perched up on the wing.
Josh (the youngest), LOVED being up there. He'll probably be the daredevil of the two, but Max will be his wheelman.
Awesome Geno !!!!! Man; new Daytona, new kids and about my age........... Whew !!!!!!! You have to be a tired man by the end of the end as well as your wife..
:2thumbs:
Quote from: hemi68charger on September 30, 2011, 04:12:14 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 04:07:30 PM
Earlier this week, my wife stopped by with our two youngest boys to let them have a look at the Daytona. It was her first opportunity to take a gander at the finished product also. While they were there, I snapped a few photos.
Max looks like a natural behind the wheel, but he did NOT like being perched up on the wing.
Josh (the youngest), LOVED being up there. He'll probably be the daredevil of the two, but Max will be his wheelman.
Awesome Geno !!!!! Man; new Daytona, new kids and about my age...........
AB - I thought you were a little older? :D
Quote from: hemi68charger on September 30, 2011, 04:12:14 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 04:07:30 PM
Earlier this week, my wife stopped by with our two youngest boys to let them have a look at the Daytona. It was her first opportunity to take a gander at the finished product also. While they were there, I snapped a few photos.
Max looks like a natural behind the wheel, but he did NOT like being perched up on the wing.
Josh (the youngest), LOVED being up there. He'll probably be the daredevil of the two, but Max will be his wheelman.
yes he is brave man one in college and in diapers :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
Awesome Geno !!!!! Man; new Daytona, new kids and about my age........... Whew !!!!!!! You have to be a tired man by the end of the end as well as your wife..
:2thumbs:
yes he is a brave man one in college and in diapers
Quote from: moparstuart on September 30, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
yes he is a brave man one in college and in diapers
Worse yet, I'm in college (grad school) at the moment also :brickwall: :smilie_help:
On the bright side, my daughter in college is having a blast this semester. Check out where she's going to school over in the UK (Harlaxton College near Grantham, Lincolnshire):
OK, I'll stop hijacking my own thread :slap:
What a dufus I am Geno???? :brickwall: :slap:.I thought that was your place. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on September 30, 2011, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on September 30, 2011, 04:12:14 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on September 30, 2011, 04:07:30 PM
Earlier this week, my wife stopped by with our two youngest boys to let them have a look at the Daytona. It was her first opportunity to take a gander at the finished product also. While they were there, I snapped a few photos.
Max looks like a natural behind the wheel, but he did NOT like being perched up on the wing.
Josh (the youngest), LOVED being up there. He'll probably be the daredevil of the two, but Max will be his wheelman.
Awesome Geno !!!!! Man; new Daytona, new kids and about my age...........
AB - I thought you were a little older? :D
I feel like it. With my brain going 100% and 200 mph................ This 47 yr. old feel like 67... But, when I get behind the wheel of my Chargers, I feel like 27 again. (Granted, that's if I'm not doing any maintenance on any of them, then it's back to 67)
Quote from: jonw29 on September 30, 2011, 09:10:42 PM
What a dufus I am Geno???? :brickwall: :slap:.I thought that was your place. :icon_smile_big:
:smilielol:
All I can say it WOW !!!! :o
I love European History and man, that place just melts with it.................
Gene the car looks stunning. I still can't wait to get to :drool5: over it in person one of these days. I saw it as pieces multiple times but now I wanna see it all together.
Quote from: jonw29 on September 30, 2011, 09:10:42 PM
What a dufus I am Geno???? :brickwall: :slap:.I thought that was your place. :icon_smile_big:
:smilielol:
I couldn't afford what it takes to cut the grass around that place for a week, much less everything else that goes with it. :rotz:
Lucky for my wife and I, our daughter has phenomenal grades and really good scholarships... plus, Harlaxton College is actually an extension of the University of Evansville (yes, the one in Indiana). They own the whole casle/manor, and operate what amounts to a satellite campus location that caters exclusively to U.S. students. Jessica is tagging along with a group of about 150 mostly UofE students for the semester, through a partner university arrangement with her "real" university at a pretty reasonable fee all things considered. Otherwise, she'd be exploring the British Isles the same way my wife and I are -- vicariously through others, reading good books, and watching Dr. Who :P
But I digress...
I heard from the original owner of this Daytona just yesterday, and am hoping to get the car out to Kansas City sometime for a reunion with the first and second owners - who are still the only people (excluding a relative or two of theirs and maybe some mechanics) that have ever driven the car on the road. The stories they told me about this car when I first talked with them, it's surprising this car wasn't wadded up years ago. :o
Quote from: hemigeno on October 02, 2011, 06:52:29 PM
[
I heard from the original owner of this Daytona just yesterday, and am hoping to get the car out to Kansas City sometime for a reunion with the first and second owners - who are still the only people (excluding a relative or two of theirs and maybe some mechanics) that have ever driven the car on the road. The stories they told me about this car when I first talked with them, it's surprising this car wasn't wadded up years ago. :o
:2thumbs:
ANYONE SEEN HEMIGENO?
We'll we have! Linda and I took a trip to Danville, Illinois a couple of weeks ago. I showed her were I used to live down there and where the A&P store was where I was a manager. We also went to Mike's drive-in just south of Danville in Georgetown where they have been serving hamburgers for the last 50 years!
We then moved on to St. Louis and did some sight seeing! We went up in the arch and were the only ones there?
After some pre planning we were able to stop by and see hemigeno! We got to see his 1969 Chargers both very nice cars! One is a Hemi and the other is a Daytona! I really wanted to see the Daytona! The car is beautifull and loaded with detail that not many have now that they are 42 years old! Thanks for the visit and letting Linda and I see your collection! Attached is a picture of Gene and his Daytona back at home!
Mopar John
Quote from: Mopar John on December 16, 2011, 07:58:25 PM
...Attached is a picture of Gene and his Daytona back at home!
Mopar John
Awesome picture !!!! Is he looking for his Daytona's safety latch hook? :lol:
Gene I gotta make a trip over to your neck of the woods sometime. Its driving me crazy that I have not seen the car since you got it back.
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 17, 2011, 11:50:19 AM
Quote from: Mopar John on December 16, 2011, 07:58:25 PM
...Attached is a picture of Gene and his Daytona back at home!
Mopar John
Awesome picture !!!! Is he looking for his Daytona's safety latch hook? :lol:
Troy,
I know you were trying to be funny on the safety latch hook but it's in the trunk with the front license plate parts. Some guys take them off so they don't chip the latch tray by accident!
MJ
Quote from: Mopar John on December 17, 2011, 12:14:43 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 17, 2011, 11:50:19 AM
Quote from: Mopar John on December 16, 2011, 07:58:25 PM
...Attached is a picture of Gene and his Daytona back at home!
Mopar John
Awesome picture !!!! Is he looking for his Daytona's safety latch hook? :lol:
Troy,
I know you were trying to be funny on the safety latch hook but it's in the trunk with the front license plate parts. Some guys take them off so they don't chip the latch tray by accident!
MJ
:rofl: And to think I chip the paint on the latch tray on purpose.......... Well.. not chipped.. just two thin lines where the hook rubs against it....
QuoteThe last two photos depict some bolts on the firewall that were pointed out as incorrect. Really sharp-eyed thread viewers will recall that the bolts in these two pictures differ from those shown earlier in photos from previous stages. One of the resources I had given to Vance in preparation for Carlisle and the judging it was to receive was a Fastener's Guide. While that is an interesting book, I was cautioned by a number of different people that it contained errors. Not knowing which entries are correct and which contain errors, I gave it to Vance and suggested that he follow it unless it was a blatant error. These electrical component bolts for the firewall are a classic example of where Vance followed that book rather than relying on his expertise. Paul J. confirmed that 1969 cars from this period should have the style of bolt Vance took out in favor of what the Guide indicated was correct... it should be a similar bolt, but with one of a couple different head markings and a free-spinning but slightly serrated washer. Apparently this style of bolt created a better ground for the components, and the style you see here is correct for 1968 and at least some years prior to then... just not on a late '69 car. When I mentioned this topic to Vance, I was already braced for the "I told you so" look that was immediately sent my way. Oh well. We'll dig up the removed bolts (already plated) and put 'em back in
Agreed.
What I've been able to find( as a general not written in stone rule of thumb) is 3/8" hex headed fixed washer bolts are 1968 and prior - 7/16" hex headed captive washer bolts are 1969 and later ----- WITH exception to ----- the engine to 1969 firewall ground cable is attached with a 3/8" hex head on every original i've seen
Quote from: 69_500 on December 17, 2011, 11:54:46 AM
Gene I gotta make a trip over to your neck of the woods sometime. Its driving me crazy that I have not seen the car since you got it back.
:badidea: I'd head north from your place and not west Danny. Talked to Geno this afternoon and he was on his way back from Vance's where he had dropped off the Daytona this weekend. Only one car in the "Hemi House" in Missouri tonight.
Ah but I have only seen the car at Gene's place once in the time I have known him, and have seen it about 4-5 different times up at Vance's already. I wanted to see it at Gene's place. Then again I think that everytime I have seen it up at vance's place it has snowed either on the way up, or way back from there. Oh except for once and it was about an inch of freezing rain instead.
Yeah, Danny has a knack for attracting bad weather to western Michigan, I agree. This weekend would have fit the bill for a visit from you as well, since prior to my arrival they haven't had any snow up there at all so far this year. I arrived about 1:30am and the weather was fine, but woke to find 1" of snow had fallen -- and it was supposed to snow all day and into the night. Figures. :rotz: Thankfully, both me and the Daytona arrived safely at Vance's a little after 10am. It's there for what Vance called some "supertweaking". I liked that term.
While I haven't posted much in the way of an update to this thread, the fall has been a busy time collecting info and feedback from a few folks who have a wealth of experience when it comes to the details of original Daytonas. There are still a couple of other people I wouldn't mind to have look at it in person still, but at this point it hasn't proven practical. Rather than wait around indefinitely for something that may never happen, I've delivered the car back into Vance's capable hands with a list of the feedback collected thus far.
On my list of things to do over Christmas break (from grad school) is to bring this thread up to date with the items that made the hit list.
BTW, thanks again for stopping by the shop, John! It was a pleasure meeting Linda and you, and I enjoyed our conversation immensely. You've had a lot of the same experiences I've had along the restoration path, and I will most certainly find the time to stop by and check out both your blue (again :drool5: ) and red cars sometime this spring. Ugly mug alert on that photo though! :o
At long last, I'm finally getting around to somewhat of an update on this thread. Since the last post, Vance has been going to town on the various items I identified after having several other folks lend their expertise and critical eye to the restoration effort. I knew Vance was capable of fixing everything on the list, but my visit this past Saturday leads me to believe he's taking it several steps farther than what I expected to see. Having the opportunity over the winter to examine each component has allowed him to fix things that we had here-to-fore assumed were alright. You'll see what I mean as the update progresses.
In addition to the restoration upgrades Vance is making, I've also managed to scrounge a few new parts to upgrade the condition of several components as well. Some I have on hand, some are still in the delivery process, and I hope to come across a few more items between now and this summer. Anyway...
In this first pic, you can see that the interior is half stripped - and the instrument panel, etc. is gone. That's been done for a couple of reasons.
First, the glue-on insulation underneath the cowl airbox is being replaced with original stuff, rather than reproduction. I had found a set of original insulation pieces, but discovered that by the time it arrived at Vance's, he had already installed the dash, etc. At the time, it was not worth the effort to take everything apart for that one item. With the remainder of my detailing list, now is the right time.
Second, Vance had sprayed body color paint fairly high on the firewall (it should be bare metal up high on a '69 Hamtramck car), to mask the finishing work they had done on the metal. You might or might not remember that the car's firewall was pretty crispy from the 1977 engine fire, which made Vance's job exponentially more difficult. We're dropping back and working the firewall over in sections now, with the plan to leave the metal bare once it's all been reworked. In the meantime, Vance uses primer to keep flash rust at bay until it can all be treated with RPM. There is a LOT of detail work to be done here that neither of us had focused on before... such as correct plating of the studs and weld nuts, spot-weld treatments, seam sealers, etc. Plenty of detail items will be visible in the finished product, and this is nowhere near complete. It is taking up a lot of time right now with all the hand sanding and detailing - but the finished product will be worth it for sure.
Third, the instrument panel has been entrusted to the capable hands of Mike Mancini and Instrument Specialties. Mike will reface the gauges using the original silkscreen method, rather than decals. While I'm not so uppity to refuse the more traditional decal restoration method (my R/T proudly displays such a set of gauges), the Daytona needed to have that detail corrected. Afterwards, the gauges will fit the rest of the car's level of correctness.
Finally, several of the under-dash components are getting a thorough makeover. You'll see in a bit some of the details now exhibited on the brake & clutch pedal assembly that weren't present before. This is a perfect example of Vance seizing the opportunity while fixing one thing, to vastly improve (strange as that may seem with what's been done to this point) many others while we're at it.
These three photos show the Dana axle assembly. One of the items noted by multiple people was that the black used on the car's chassis components was "too glossy". If you ask 10 restoration guys what the correct level of gloss is, you're apt to get 10 subtly-different opinions in return. Conventional wisdom is that a slightly-flattened gloss black is correct, but it's somewhat of a crapshoot as to whether the observer will agree that what they see does or does not meet their personal opinion of what the level of gloss/sheen should be. Chrysler didn't use semi-gloss paint or chassis black like GM, they simply used crappy paint which didn't weather very well. Depending on the age and storage condition of a car, what plant it was made at, what model/year, and what paint happened to be in the gun the day the line worker dipped or sprayed the components, there can be variations even on survivor cars. We've acquiesed to the masses' opinon, and have or will be repainting all the black components on the car.
In line with the last post's topic, I took a bunch of photos of two K-frames at Vance's shop. While addressing the paint gloss issue, Vance got to thinking about the condition of my original K-frame. The oft-mentioned engine fire had a couple of effects on the car... one was it burned off the grease and oil which often builds up on engine components and those mounted nearby (e.g. the K-frame). After that unintended protective layer was removed, the exposed metal tends to rust... quickly and rather thoroughly.
Initially, the original K-frame was saved by body work to remove the rather nasty-looking pock marks and pitting. The all-important date code was preserved, but most of the other fine details were lost as the rough surface was, by necessity, smoothed.
After looking my original over with a critical eye, Vance set out to find a suitable, more preserved specimin to install in its place if at all possible. What you'll see in the next several slides is a really, really nice K-frame that Vance managed to conjure up (I don't ask him where he finds some of these things, as he probably wouldn't tell me anyway). The date code matches the original, confirmed by all the right traits of a late '69 K-frame ('69 top half and '70 bottom half). Even the engine mount brackets had a mid '69 date code, although I had never seen those dates before (never had a K-frame in that condition before).
Anyway, the first several pictures are of my original K-member, showing how smooth everything is.
The next several photos are of the replacement K-member. You can clearly see the striation marks from when the top half was pressed into shape by a whole lot of force. These are the kinds of details that were lost on the original.
More detail shots of the ends... '70 K-frames have holes here. Note the weld splatter and rough texture of the welds. This kind of character is what makes this a much better piece - and since it's dated the same, there is no way to say which one was installed in which car.
In the last two shots, you can see the date codes stamped into the engine mount brackets. I had never seen these before.
In the first shot, you can see a trait of late '69 K-members... since the top and bottom components were mis-matched ('69 top, '70 bottom) and 1970 model cars did not use a sway bar mounted to the K-member, the bottom half had to have a hole drilled for the sway bar mounting. This hole was drilled prior to assembly of the K-frame, as you can see it is a larger diameter than the "correct" hole in the 1969 top plate.
The last shot just shows more of the witness marks from the stamping process. Details, details...
Moving on from the K-frame, the transmission crossmember is set to be replaced as well, for the same reasons. Vance hadn't found one yet, but he wasn't thinking it would be too much trouble. Thankfully, those are neither date coded nor as differentiated as K-members.
We're swapping out the headlamp seats currently in the car for the weird-finished (galvanized) ones in the second pic. I bought a set of 4 headlamp assemblies a while back, mostly because you can't have too many of the original wide-rib GE lamps on hand. As it turns out, the seats were probably a nicer score than the sealed beam units.
Another change is that the H-pipe has been stripped of the clear paint previously applied. Thankfully, the stripping process left all the distinguishing marks on the tubing itself, as well as the discolorations you'd see on bare steel. This has been treated with RPM, which allows it to look absolutely bare while being protected from rust. Dave Walden gave me the idea, as he treated the exhaust systems of his personal collection and reported that it has held up well despite what you might initially think.
One of the things I spent a good deal of time oogling (and photographing) was sort-of an afterthought to look at. Vance and I were in the process of stowing the battery away safely, and he just mentioned that I ought to look at the brake & clutch assembly. He had good reason to point it out, as that's something I hadn't paid too much attention to before. After looking at what's there now and comparing it to the original parts, the details are rather apparent. Yet another example of an unplanned upgrade along the way...
Vance had a REALLY mint wire harness retainer as seen in the third photo, that still had its original black plasticote and galvanized(?) finish. My original that was on the car until recently, had neither. Also, you'll see many examples in the next several posts showing stamping and/or witness marks from the original stamping process. While these components are not exposed to the weather, the bare metal does tend to pit up a decent amount simply from humidity in the air (much less trapped moisture in the passenger's compartment from a weathertightness problem).
More detail shots... note the spot weld marks, and weldnuts
What else would you expect from me, but more detail shots... :icon_smile_blackeye:
In the last two photos, I tried to show a bit of detail from the manufacturing process, where the assembly is partially dipped into a tank of black paint to coat the pedal arms themselves. In the last photo, you can see an original, untouched 1967 pedal assembly exhibiting the same traits. Vance hung my pedals and let them dangle to establish the paint line similar to that original set. For those who want to get really particular, some pedal assemblies were indeed sprayed rather than dipped. Vance showed me another original/untouched set of pedals that he wanted to hang onto forever, because it was very clearly sprayed rather than dipped. I forgot to take a photo of that set, but I did look it over myself. My originals were almost certainly dipped (that was the most common method), so that's what we went back with.
If you haven't had enough already, here's a couple more closeups... :rotz:
About the only component that didn't look absolutely pristine was the clip that holds the brake pedal switch in place. Vance thinks that's the same clip as what holds the emergency brake front cable housing to the frame underneath the car. He's confident he can either clean and replate this one, or find a new clip.
Vance sourced another reinforcement bracket for the brake booster. My original was pitted enough that the head markings on the studs were illegible, but this is what they should look like. Incidentally, he's going to re-paint this bracket, by hanging it and using a diptank just like originally... there are several other components that were painted this way, so it'll be worth the time and effort to get a tank set up. He'll probably dip as much as he can at the same time for efficiency's sake.
While we had the hood up to snatch the battery, I took a couple of shots showing the engine compartment which is empty again. There will be a fair amount of additional detailing done in this area too, and I'll detail those efforts as they happen.
That's it for an update for now...
You sir are a glutton for punishment
but my hats off to ya anyway
Does the K frame have a date code stamped, and if so, where is it located?
Quote from: Aero426 on March 08, 2012, 11:03:06 AM
Does the K frame have a date code stamped, and if so, where is it located?
Yes, it does have a date code - and it's located right above the mounting location for the brace that runs to the radiator yoke. It's stamped on the vertical face of the K-frame's top half. Here's a photo posted earlier in the thread of my car's original date:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=40177)
Another photo showing the original K-member's date code's location (it's the part that's been sanded clean):
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=169624)
and the replacement K-member's date code location... both read 158 9
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=169627)
Quote from: gtx6970 on March 08, 2012, 09:45:41 AM
You sir are a glutton for punishment
but my hats off to ya anyway
Thanks, Bill - and you're most correct about the glutton for punishment. :icon_smile_blackeye:
On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)... The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint. I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine. Brian (1HotDaytona) made mention that lacquer was still available (which is indeed the truth, until the EPA regulates that out of existence too), which got me to thinking... why didn't we paint mine that way? So, being of the inquisitive nature that I am, I asked Vance that question on Saturday. Here's how the conversation went...
> Hey Vance, was there a particular reason you didn't use lacquer paint on the car?
> Yeah - because Creative didn't use it.
> Are you sure? I thought they did?
> They may have used it on some components, but they did not use it on Chris' (Chris Sauer) car, Bill Card's car, Harold Sullivan's cars, or the other original cars I've seen.
> Hmmm. Was there a reason?
> The advantage of using lacquer is that it dries from the outside inward, whereas enamel dries from the inside out - and as a result, lacquer can be wet sanded not too long after it is sprayed, since it develops a shell. The disadvantage is that it takes a muuuuch longer time to spray it out and build up the color that would be needed.
Throughout the rest of my visit, Vance would periodically mention something about how he thought there would be no way a lacquer paint job would exhibit the same observable characteristics we almost always see on original cars - like wide overspray patterns, lack of spider cracks in original paint cars, and a few other such traits. It really got him to thinking about the subject, but he remained adamant that in his mind the only explanation was that the paint was acrylic enamel.
Years ago I seem to remember hearing that you cannot spray lacquer over the top of enamel, which is why the tailpanel (Organisol) was sprayed before the body color and then masked off. It seems to make sense that enamel is what Creative used on the Daytonas anyway, because of having to go over the top of Hamtramck's paint job in some areas (quarterpanels, roof, cowl, engine compartment, etc.). I also remember reading that 'Birds used lacquer on their noses and wings, but that's a different situation - and also explains why there's often a noticeable difference in the color between body & nosecone.
Any more thoughts on this subject?
:scratchchin: :scope: :shruggy:
Not saying that they used it originally,but lacquer can be sprayed over enamal . It used to happen all the time as the only primer repair shops had back in the days was lacquer. Its far more apt to "react" if its used over enamal. It lifys the enamal if it is soft. Not usually a problem on an oem baked enamal finish. Now if you had a repair done and the shop used enamal for the repair and you wanted to rework in that area you would be at far more risk if that existing repair was not baked.
Quote from: hemigeno on March 08, 2012, 12:12:47 PM
On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)... The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint. I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine.
i believe you are referring to this thread...
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,87691.0.html
Quote from: held1823 on March 08, 2012, 12:38:40 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on March 08, 2012, 12:12:47 PM
On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)... The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint. I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine.
i believe you are referring to this thread...
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,87691.0.html
Yep, that's the one... :cheers:
I guess Jim/maxwellwedge and Vance can duke it out about what was originally sprayed by Creative. Based on the lack of spider cracking, I tend to gravitate towards enamel myself - but I'm the furthest thing from an expert when it comes to paint.
dad has long maintained that the body shop manager (at the dealership his daytona came from) told him of the different paint types. apparently the creative-applied paint was peeling off in chunks from around the rear window on dad's b5 car within weeks of picking it up from the dealership. the dealership's painter attributed this problem to creative's lacquer paint not adhering to the factory enamel.
the paint issue was not color specific, as the other daytona here in town at the time also had major paint issues. this f6 car would later become larry b's. the ship list timing doesn't seem to offer any sort of explantion either, as dad's car was #302, while the green one was #94.
:lol: Draggin' me in huh?
My quick couple of centavo's
Got a couple of original wings that are lacquer....cracking and all.
The factory FSM's even say it is OK to spray lacquer over the acrylic enamel....like Brian mentioned - OK over a baked finish. Did they use acrylic enamel at Creative ever? They may have.....anything to "get it done" was possible over at that place.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 08, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
:lol: Draggin' me in huh?
My quick couple of centavo's
Got a couple of original wings that are lacquer....cracking and all.
The factory FSM's even say it is OK to spray lacquer over the acrylic enamel....like Brian mentioned - OK over a baked finish. Did they use acrylic enamel at Creative ever? They may have.....anything to "get it done" was possible over at that place.
Yep, I'm dragging you in! :icon_smile_big:
I definitely agree about the wings, as mine had cracks in its original paint too - which is part of the reason I am not sure they sprayed lacquer on the body. I haven't seen the cracking evidence on body panels like you'd expect to see... although that doesn't apply to DiscoTona for obvious reasons ;D Vance certainly didn't rule out the use of lacquer on components (I was thinking about wings as he and I were discussing the subject), but it was his opinion it didn't get used on bodypanels on the cars he's messed with. That's obviously far short of every car...
Vance wasn't the one who said that lacquer couldn't be sprayed over enamel, that's my (somewhat suspect) memory. I still think the factory sprayed out tailpanels first and then body color, but that might have been because the enamel wouldn't have been baked on when the tailpanels were painted. Both were baked at the same time, I would think. Makes sense.
Is there any other way to empirically determine what's on (at least some) original paint cars? There could have been different procedures followed from car to car, as the conversion process evolved. I started to say "perfected" there rather than "evolved", but I'm not sure Creative ever perfected much when it came to the conversion process - as confirmed by held1823's comments about his family's Daytona... :o
Tail panels, hood performance paint package - painted bumble-bee stripes etc. were painted first mainly because it was easier to mask than the other way around.
I know Roger has done a bunch of Daytona's and Frank has definitely seen a ton of them and they always said that it seems the noses etc. were lacquer. Beyond that - none of mine were original paint so I cant weigh-in with my own examples....I've always gone by what they have said......For better or worse - lol
Holy crap Gene I'm calling this a re-restoration! You guys have taken it back apart!
Thanks for the update! :2thumbs:
MJ
Gene this is just my :Twocents:.It will NEVER be enough.I just finished my car but I would like to take it to the next level.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 08, 2012, 02:13:29 PM
Tail panels, hood performance paint package - painted bumble-bee stripes etc. were painted first mainly because it was easier to mask than the other way around.
True enough.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 08, 2012, 02:13:29 PM
I know Roger has done a bunch of Daytona's and Frank has definitely seen a ton of them and they always said that it seems the noses etc. were lacquer. Beyond that - none of mine were original paint so I cant weigh-in with my own examples....I've always gone by what they have said......For better or worse - lol
I respect both of those guys' opinions greatly, and I'm open to correction on this subject - but my inclination is towards the use of enamel on the body panels. What other tell-tale indicators of lacquer paint would be present on an original-paint car?
Quote from: jonw29 on March 09, 2012, 11:41:43 AM
Gene this is just my :Twocents:.It will NEVER be enough.I just finished my car but I would like to take it to the next level.
You're probably correct, but I'll have fun getting it as far enough along as I can. Well, "fun" might be a bit of a stretch, but it's the direction I chose anyway...
Quote from: Mopar John on March 09, 2012, 11:24:50 AM
Holy crap Gene I'm calling this a re-restoration! You guys have taken it back apart!
Thanks for the update! :2thumbs:
MJ
Hi John, I just sent you an email. Hope you and Danny have fun this weekend, as those are awesome kinds of visits to make. I wish I'd have taken the chance and called you up last week, as it would have been great to check out your red Daytona and see the blue one again. One of these days...
I just spent the last five evenings reading all the way through this thread. What an incredible job restoring this car and also an incredible task of research and continuous improvement. I can only dream of pulling something like this off. Very impressive. :2thumbs:
Somehouw I missed this thread from the beginning. Beautiful car Geno. Good luck! :2thumbs:
Gene,
Amazing work you are doing (again). I have just one thing to say..... you better have a correct green oil filter on there! :smilielol:
Gene.....I stopped in at Vance's on Thursday and was surprised to see your car somewhat disassembled again. Vance explained to me all of the udpates you were working on. The last several posts have been even more informative in regard to the ultimate goal of the updates. It is amazing the amount of detail that has gone into this restoration. I have learned quite a bit from following this thread and the many visits to Vances shop while your car has been there. Hopefully, my 70 Charger will start moving along quickly once these next updates are completed!!! :lol: Joe
Quote from: Hemi Runner on March 09, 2012, 08:39:47 PM
I just spent the last five evenings reading all the way through this thread. What an incredible job restoring this car and also an incredible task of research and continuous improvement. I can only dream of pulling something like this off. Very impressive. :2thumbs:
Quote from: bsakal on March 11, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
Somehouw I missed this thread from the beginning. Beautiful car Geno. Good luck! :2thumbs:
Thanks, guys - and welcome to my personal World of Pain...
Quote from: resq302 on March 11, 2012, 09:00:46 PM
Gene,
Amazing work you are doing (again). I have just one thing to say..... you better have a correct green oil filter on there! :smilielol:
Thanks, Brian - and I do have a couple of correct oil filters already sitting on the shelf, plus one or two oddballs I could use if I wanted to :stirthepot: a bit. I also have my bases covered if the consensus opinion is that the filters should have overspray on them, as I have two filters already "over"sprayed with engine-color paint. There are two schools of thought on that topic... one is that the engine assembly plant screwed the filters in place and then painted leaving a fair amount of overspray on the filter housing; the other position is that they only placed a cap over the filter mount's threads and THEN painted the engine, installing the (no-overspray) filter later. Vance is of the opinion, based on his observations of original-paint oil pumps from that era, that the filters were in place before paint rather than a cap. Others point to a couple of photos showing engines being installed in chassis (or on test stands, which to me is a non-sequitur) and have no-overspray filters. However, Paul Jacobs has seen a very low mileage '69 383 engine with its original filter still in place, and it had engine paint on it. This is one of those topics that no matter what I do, I'll be wrong in someone's eyes. Oh well.
Quote from: 70gtx440dana on March 11, 2012, 10:21:20 PM
Gene.....I stopped in at Vance's on Thursday and was surprised to see your car somewhat disassembled again. Vance explained to me all of the udpates you were working on. The last several posts have been even more informative in regard to the ultimate goal of the updates. It is amazing the amount of detail that has gone into this restoration. I have learned quite a bit from following this thread and the many visits to Vances shop while your car has been there. Hopefully, my 70 Charger will start moving along quickly once these next updates are completed!!! :lol: Joe
Hi Joe, I'm sorry that my OCD complex is pushing your project's schedule back a little bit. My guess is Vance is looking forward to working on someone else's car for a change. You have a unique opportunity to see some behind-the-scenes work, by checking out the progress in person. My photograpy and narrative skills don't do the level of detail justice - and some of those details are covered up once everything is assembled.
BTW, your '70 will be an awesome ride when it's done, and I'm sure Vance will do a bang-up job on the sheet metal and paint for you. He's probably itching to get his hands on a certain FE5 car too...
WOW Gene...
youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......
Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!
Quote from: FJ5WING on March 12, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......
Perfectionism's not necessarily a good thing, believe me -
especially if you'd like to actually finish a project :rotz:
Quote from: FJ5WING on March 12, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!
Well, at least I wouldn't be condemned by absolutely everyone!
:cheers:
:drool5: amazing attention to factory / creatives handy work :yesnod: awesome stuff Geno :yesnod:
:popcrn:
Quote from: FJ5WING on March 12, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
WOW Gene...
youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......
Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!
Maybe it depended on what plant the engine was painted at? Kinda like the striker latch for the trunk on our cars? Some plants painted the entire thing where others removed it installed a prop rod and then replaced the cad plated striker latch.
OMG....thats all I have to say....
;)
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 14, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
OMG....thats all I have to say....
;)
Ok, Chris. Is the OMG a good or a bad thing? :smilielol:
if it's a similar OMG to what mine was, it's a dumbfounded reaction to the dismantling of a perfect car, to make it even "perfecter".
i had barely recovered from a standing eight count over the $500 oil filter, before gene threw this haymaker...
Quote from: held1823 on March 14, 2012, 08:03:12 PM
i had barely recovered from a standing eight count over the $500 oil filter
Thankfully, I was lucky enough to follow some sage and wise advice from Roger Gibson - who suggested I buy any parts I could find for this car, anytime I found them. That process started almost 10 years ago, even before picking the car up from Davtona (hoping he wouldn't get cold feet). I bought a couple of the olive drab filters before the big hullabaloo about filters started on Moparts many years ago. I picked up one on eBay for $50 even after most people knew what they were, because it was advertised by the seller as a Chrysler/Desoto filter due to the low 18xxxxx part number. In other words, I don't have a shelf full of $500 filters. :woohoo:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 14, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
OMG....thats all I have to say....
You've been shaking your head at me since the first time we met at Carlisle - what else is new? :P
Gene,
I think Chris was trying to say that people usually mellow out with age, not get more anal retentive. Oh wait, crap! I fit into that latter category also. :smilielol:
Quote from: held1823 on March 14, 2012, 08:03:12 PM
if it's a similar OMG to what mine was, it's a dumbfounded reaction to the dismantling of a perfect car, to make it even "perfecter".
i had barely recovered from a standing eight count over the $500 oil filter, before gene threw this haymaker...
That's pretty much it in a NUTshell....no pun intended!
Quote from: hemigeno on March 15, 2012, 09:03:47 AM
You've been shaking your head at me since the first time we met at Carlisle - what else is new? :P
You got that right headlight boy!! :rotz: :rotz:
:cheers:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 15, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on March 14, 2012, 08:03:12 PM
if it's a similar OMG to what mine was, it's a dumbfounded reaction to the dismantling of a perfect car, to make it even "perfecter".
i had barely recovered from a standing eight count over the $500 oil filter, before gene threw this haymaker...
That's pretty much it in a NUTshell....no pun intended!
Quote from: hemigeno on March 15, 2012, 09:03:47 AM
You've been shaking your head at me since the first time we met at Carlisle - what else is new? :P
You got that right headlight boy!! :rotz: :rotz:
:cheers:
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 15, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
That's pretty much it in a NUTshell....no pun intended!
ORLY :ohhthesarcasm:
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 15, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
You got that right headlight boy!! :rotz: :rotz:
:cheers:
:rofl: :nixon:
A couple of weekends ago I stopped by Vance's place for another visit and to make a couple deliveries (of sorts). Progress is definitely happening, but there is not a stark contrast when looking at it from a distance. It's all in the up-close details, and I especially love getting the "walk throughs" from Vance describing all the intricacies of what he's up to on the car. Many of the things he's working on are still in progress though, and he asked that I keep from posting stuff that's still in the "experimental" phase so that folks don't get the wrong idea of how something's supposed to be done or what it's supposed to look like until he's done.
Anyway, one of the things we spent a fair amount of time looking at was a part I picked up a couple weeks ago. For many years now, I had been looking for an NOS pie tin for the air cleaner, with no luck. I had not even been able to find the part number in any of the many stacks of reference materials floating around the office. When it first arrived and I took it out of the package, I was not sure anyone could tell the difference between this and a reproduction since the repro's really are very, very nice. In fact, I wondered if it were possible for the seller to have sold me the packaging material with a reproduction pie tin. On further review, Vance and I were able to notice several differences between this (orange) OEM tin and the (red) repro piece we had previously installed on the engine.
Basically, the texture of the OEM vinyl material is slightly different, there is a slight grain pattern in the aluminum to which the overlay is applied, and the bare aluminum itself has a slightly gold tint to it (whereas the repro's have a silver tint).
I asked Vance if he'd seen a new one of these before, and he said he's seen only one other which didn't have an envelope. It's definitely the first one I've seen, but some of you guys who have been parts scrounging for decades may use new ones as coasters for your drinks for all I know.
Another area he's made improvements is with the transmission crossmember. On my last visit, he mentioned he was trying to source a replacement for my original - which was rather pitted from exposure to the elements. In these photos, you can see the witness marks on the nice piece (the part farther away of the two), the smoothed/filled exterior of the original, as well as the evidence of pitting which was still visible on the inside of the crossmember. We can check this one off the list of things yet to do...
The first two and last photos are of the brake master cylinder backing plate, which again was replaced due to pitting - this time, the issue was trying to maintain all the markings on the stud heads rather than witness marks from the stamping process. Vance replicated the runs which are often seen from when the part was dipped in paint.
The last middle photo shows a nice set of original sound insulation which was glued to the underside of the cowl airbox. This really can't be seen unless you lay flat on your back in the floorboard of the car, and stick your head up under the dash... but it can be seen. Earlier, we had installed a reproduction set of insulation, and by the time we came across nice original stuff the dash, etc. had been assembled. Now that everything is back apart, the right stuff will be installed.
*edit* the order of the photos was re-arranged when I replaced a blurry shot with a slightly clearer photo, and I didn't want to remove the insulation photo and try to repost, for fear that I would get the dreaded "File Name Already Exists" error message.
Vance dug out some original jack hold down bolts he has removed - one from my car, and one from Chris Sauer's car... I'll give you three guesses as to which one came from my 44,000 mile car (which was stored outside for a while) and which came from Chris' 16,000 mile survivor. The thing to note is that neither bolt had any head markings on them, and they are exactly the same configuration. Creative Industries most certainly used hardware/bolts that came from generic sources at times. Not always, but at least in some places. It's actually hard these days to find bolts of this length that have threads tapped all the way to the bolt head. Most times, the threads stop after an inch or so.
never realized the pie tins had a black edge to them. Both my original and the repro didn't have them.
I will post these two progress shots, where Vance has masked off the engine compartment in a strange way. Why, you ask? Well, because when Hamtramck's line worker was painting the engine compartment, these holes were not blocked off by anything. The inside surfaces of the firewall would get overspray in particular areas based on how the gun was held, etc. Vance has been studying up on this topic with multiple original/unrestored cars to make sure his logic is sound before replicating the same treatment on my now-bare inner firewall.
Hopefully I'll be back up to Vance's before everything is reinstalled to take pictures of the overspray while it's easier to see/photograph. This is another one of those details that isn't visible without playing the role of contortionist (and some is hidden by insulation & other components), but we're taking the time to replicate it nonetheless.
The last picture for this update is a shot I took of the rear view mirror. This was to remind myself to dig out the other mirror I have on the shelf back at the shop and get it out to Vance. Tony (69hemidaytona) and I have discussed this particular feature of mirrors now for several years, and the last time we spoke I couldn't remember which mirror style was installed on my car. Late 1969 model cars used a mirror base that had a flat/beveled section at the very top of the base's mast, rather than the more rounded style you see here. The beveled style was made in Canada - just a different supplier, but their shape was slightly different than the earlier supplier's. If anyone's really curious, I can either dig up an old photo or snap a photo of a used Canadian mirror base that is somewhere around the shop.
Quote from: resq302 on April 17, 2012, 04:42:15 PM
never realized the pie tins had a black edge to them. Both my original and the repro didn't have them.
I have the original pie tin from nascarxx29's Daytona, and it has the black edge too. It also has same goldish tint to the aluminum as well - which before Vance pointed it out, I had never noticed.
The pie plate was original to the car and had the chrome wing nut :Twocents:
Quote from: hemigeno on April 17, 2012, 04:17:47 PM
A couple of weekends ago I stopped by Vance's place for another visit and to make a couple deliveries (of sorts). Progress is definitely happening, but there is not a stark contrast when looking at it from a distance. It's all in the up-close details, and I especially love getting the "walk throughs" from Vance describing all the intricacies of what he's up to on the car. Many of the things he's working on are still in progress though, and he asked that I keep from posting stuff that's still in the "experimental" phase so that folks don't get the wrong idea of how something's supposed to be done or what it's supposed to look like until he's done.
Anyway, one of the things we spent a fair amount of time looking at was a part I picked up a couple weeks ago. For many years now, I had been looking for an NOS pie tin for the air cleaner, with no luck. I had not even been able to find the part number in any of the many stacks of reference materials floating around the office. When it first arrived and I took it out of the package, I was not sure anyone could tell the difference between this and a reproduction since the repro's really are very, very nice. In fact, I wondered if it were possible for the seller to have sold me the packaging material with a reproduction pie tin. On further review, Vance and I were able to notice several differences between this (orange) OEM tin and the (red) repro piece we had previously installed on the engine.
Basically, the texture of the OEM vinyl material is slightly different, there is a slight grain pattern in the aluminum to which the overlay is applied, and the bare aluminum itself has a slightly gold tint to it (whereas the repro's have a silver tint).
I asked Vance if he'd seen a new one of these before, and he said he's seen only one other which didn't have an envelope. It's definitely the first one I've seen, but some of you guys who have been parts scrounging for decades may use new ones as coasters for your drinks for all I know.
Gene,
Congrats on the NOS pietin! I am glad that I didn't have one on our Daytona right after the restoration! The reason being is the REM reproduction hood pad insulation is a little thicker than the original and rubbed the pietin! It looks like somone took steel wool to it !@#$%^&*()! Now I have 2 pietins, one that I keep on the car and another in the trunk that I swap out at judged shows. Again congrats on the rare part score!
MJ
:Twocents: The #2843767 name plate doesnt appear in 69 parts catalog just in the 70-71 parts book for W D B J line.Found it in 68 book not much description other W Coronet D Dodge 440 magnum .And no color listed
14-029-008 NAMEPLATE, A/Cleaner
440 Engine, 440 Magnum
1970 1 2843 767
1971 2843 767
1972
1973
1974
If anyone needs one saw this
| Richard McDonald Vintage Car Partswww.richardmcdonald.org/plate-mopar/Cached
1951 1952 NOS PLYMOUTH RADIO DELETE PLATE Paypal .... Mopar Chrysler Dodge Engine Air Cleaner ID Plate 440 Magnum NOS 2843767 69 71. Paypal ... NOS Mopar 19591960 Plymouth Suburban Emblem Name Plate Paypal ...
Mopar Performance part# P4529072 for the red name plate
Wow !!! Good stuff Geno !! I personally would like to see the comparison between the two door outside rearview mirrors..
this is intresting stuff :yesnod: :popcrn:
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 25, 1974, 06:06:26 PM
Wow !!! Good stuff Geno !! I personally would like to see the comparison between the two door outside rearview mirrors..
A day late and a dollar short... :brickwall:
I sent off the Made in Canada mirror to Vance just yesterday, otherwise I'd take a better photo. The best ones I could find after a quick search (that shows the detail) are these two photos I just cropped and added a text box:
Quote from: Mopar John on April 17, 2012, 07:38:38 PM
I am glad that I didn't have one on our Daytona right after the restoration! The reason being is the REM reproduction hood pad insulation is a little thicker than the original and rubbed the pietin! It looks like somone took steel wool to it !@#$%^&*()! Now I have 2 pietins, one that I keep on the car and another in the trunk that I swap out at judged shows.
Yeah, I'd be doing the same thing. I have the same problem with the REM hood pad rubbing on the front edge and top of the Hemi R/T's air cleaner, but I don't tote around the spare chromedome lid... probably should. It's an undercoat car like your B5 'Tona, so it's supposed to have the pad - otherwise, that sucker would be coming off.
Thankfully, this Daytona is a low-option model and has no hood pad -- hopefully no rubbing. If it does, I have bigger problems :o
I got a mirror core with the pentstar on it.Similar to the one last shown.Supposed to be useable on either side of the car just needs better chrome.The other mirror I dug up 69-70 pass side similar to a dr side remote.Need a original core to restore
you really have some patience to go through all this for your car, my hats off to ya
Quote from: mauve66 on April 19, 2012, 06:49:28 PM
you really have some patience to go through all this for your car, my hats off to ya
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2010, 08:33:34 AM
Thanks for the comments, although I think "bull-headed stubbornness" probably applies to me more than nice terms like resilience. patience.
(had to modify my previous comment, but it still applies... :icon_smile_blackeye: )
:cheers:
Quote from: mauve66 on April 19, 2012, 06:49:28 PM
you really have some patience to go through all this for your car, my hats off to ya
I think it's more like the poor car has patience for its owner... The car wants to tear up the streets !!!!! :nana:
Quote from: hemigeno on April 17, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
I will post these two progress shots, where Vance has masked off the engine compartment in a strange way. Why, you ask? Well, because when Hamtramck's line worker was painting the engine compartment, these holes were not blocked off by anything. The inside surfaces of the firewall would get overspray in particular areas based on how the gun was held, etc. Vance has been studying up on this topic with multiple original/unrestored cars to make sure his logic is sound before replicating the same treatment on my now-bare inner firewall.
Hopefully I'll be back up to Vance's before everything is reinstalled to take pictures of the overspray while it's easier to see/photograph. This is another one of those details that isn't visible without playing the role of contortionist (and some is hidden by insulation & other components), but we're taking the time to replicate it nonetheless.
The last picture for this update is a shot I took of the rear view mirror. This was to remind myself to dig out the other mirror I have on the shelf back at the shop and get it out to Vance. Tony (69hemidaytona) and I have discussed this particular feature of mirrors now for several years, and the last time we spoke I couldn't remember which mirror style was installed on my car. Late 1969 model cars used a mirror base that had a flat/beveled section at the very top of the base's mast, rather than the more rounded style you see here. The beveled style was made in Canada - just a different supplier, but their shape was slightly different than the earlier supplier's. If anyone's really curious, I can either dig up an old photo or snap a photo of a used Canadian mirror base that is somewhere around the shop.
Gene,
Tony and I discussed outside non remote rear view mirrors also! Here is a picture of my early June build R4 Daytona and another off my early August 69 build 70 GTX. I don't know if this helps or not?
MJ
John,
Yes -- if nothing else, those photos help to show that not all the mirrors in that timeframe were the "beveled" style. Apparently either is correct, so that's a good thing. I may leave the NOS rounded style on the car then. We'll see.
Thanks for taking & posting the pics!
:cheers:
Gene,
If you decide to take the NOS round style mirror off the Daytona I can probably find a good home for it! :scratchchin:
MJ
Well, I'm leaving in a few minutes for Michigan to pick the car up from Vance's shop. Ready or not, it's finished! The Mopar 'Nats is this weekend, and I plan to be at Columbus tomorrow evening. So, the final countdown has begun.
There have been a TON of changes/improvements to the car, many (but not all) of which I do have documented with photos. I have been way too busy at work & home to update the thread, although the way things look I may have more free time on my hands in the coming weeks than I'd prefer. Either way, I hope to update this thread with the in-progress work. Ultimately, I'd like to do a nose-to-bumper walk-through of the various components on the car. Whether that happens on this thread or a new one it doesn't matter, but I think it would be of interest and use to a few folks.
More later...
Quote from: hemigeno on August 07, 2012, 10:21:11 AM
Well, I'm leaving in a few minutes for Michigan to pick the car up from Vance's shop. Ready or not, it's finished! The Mopar 'Nats is this weekend, and I plan to be at Columbus tomorrow evening. So, the final countdown has begun.
There have been a TON of changes/improvements to the car, many (but not all) of which I do have documented with photos. I have been way too busy at work & home to update the thread, although the way things look I may have more free time on my hands in the coming weeks than I'd prefer. Either way, I hope to update this thread with the in-progress work. Ultimately, I'd like to do a nose-to-bumper walk-through of the various components on the car. Whether that happens on this thread or a new one it doesn't matter, but I think it would be of interest and use to a few folks.
More later...
Awesome !!!! I can imagine you'll be a big hit !!!!
It's been a lot of work getting to this point, but there will be plenty of nice cars that some guys have worked their butts off also to make just as nice. I'm mostly relieved it's (almost) done.
Thanks anyway though!
:cheers:
Heard you have some stiff competition out there Geno! I understand that there will be two other daytonas out there with you.
Quote from: hemigeno on August 07, 2012, 10:21:11 AM
Well, I'm leaving in a few minutes for Michigan to pick the car up from Vance's shop. Ready or not, it's finished! The Mopar 'Nats is this weekend
Best of luck at the Nationals Geno, She's a beauty she'll do fine.
Is John's Y2 Daytona going to be there too?
Johns Y2 and Tony EW1 daytona should be there
John's Y2 is scheduled to be judged on Thursday I think.
Good luck to everyone!! :cheers:
It sounds like it will be a Daytona cage match.
if ECS dave is officiating you've got better odds.
Quote from: pettybird on August 08, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
if ECS dave is officiating you've got better odds.
No....no.....no......you got it all wrong. I prefer to let the experts (like yourself) that have probably been through the process many times, do the officiating. While were are at it, how about you post some of the detailed features you have done on your Restorations and I will post the same features (on my vehicles) for comparisons? It is one thing to talk about Mopar projects and another to let the work speak for itself. I am sure I will be humiliated but what the heck........I'm game if you are. Post those pictures and let the results speak for themselves. :yesnod:
Be careful in your travels Gene. Keep me posted and have a GREAT time!
I hope they have a lift back at the OE tent this year! It would be a crime to not clearly see all the details put into these fine Daytonas!
Can't wait to see them complete on Friday as we have had the privilage to see two of them in progress!
MJ
Thanks for the well-wishes everyone. So far so good, but who knows what the next few days will hold. I was aware that John's car (and Tony's) were also slated to be at the show, and it will be quite cool to have three Daytonas going through the judging together. I saw John's car a few weeks ago before Paul had it all done, and it was quite nice even then... :2thumbs: My first look at Tony's car won't be until Friday, since I didn't go to Carlisle this year and so I missed it's debut.
Quote from: pettybird on August 08, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
if ECS dave is officiating you've got better odds.
I don't care who judges my car, as long as it is accurate and impartial. Nothing chafes more than being knocked
for things which are actually correct. Dave W. knows a thing or two about that phenomenon for sure. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm armed to the teeth with documents, parts and a hard drive full of photos anyway.
What a long week (or six months) it has been! Just pulled into the motel and finally here in Columbus.
I just want to say that this thread has been one of my favorite, not to mention one of the most informative threads out there. Gene has really been detailed and I for one, have learned some valuable information regarding Daytonas from it.
I have also had the opportunity to hang out with Gene on several occasions and enjoyed his friendship. Even as a "competitor", he opened his stash of NOS parts and said "Take what ya need for your car". I couldn't resist! Now how many people would do such a thing???
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but would also like to thank Mike Mancini for some excellent gauge work, Rob Brombacker for some one off stuff, and Dave Walden for scrounging up NOS tires, mufflers & some other rare stuff.
Can't wait to spend the weekend admiring the three Daytonas under the tent going for the gold - first time ever for such an occasion. Best of luck to all, should be a fun weekend!! :2thumbs:
Quote from: ECS on August 08, 2012, 05:31:15 PM
Quote from: pettybird on August 08, 2012, 05:08:46 PM
if ECS dave is officiating you've got better odds.
No....no.....no......you got it all wrong. I prefer to let the experts (like yourself) that have probably been through the process many times, do the officiating. While were are at it, how about you post some of the detailed features you have done on your Restorations and I will post the same features (on my vehicles) for comparisons? It is one thing to talk about Mopar projects and another to let the work speak for itself. I am sure I will be humiliated but what the heck........I'm game if you are. Post those pictures and let the results speak for themselves. :yesnod:
Be careful in your travels Gene. Keep me posted and have a GREAT time!
LOL just checking to see if you're still lurking ;)
We'll be there Saturday in our unrestored petty bird. We park by the swap meet on the other side of the paved driveway...there should be a couple wings there. I promise to make it to the show side instead of spending all day looking for parts!
Quote from: paul jacobs on August 09, 2012, 12:54:54 AM
.........and Dave Walden for scrounging up NOS tires, mufflers & some other rare stuff......
Thanks Paul! I'm sure that you probably did not use many of the things I provided. It was fun however to waste all that time, money and energy! Also remember that you can always use those tires to trade up for better ones. That seems to be the way the luck rolls! When I supply them, "BETTER ONES" miraculously become abundant, accessible and readily available. :icon_smile_wink: :lol:
The Daytona looks Fantastic Paul! Have fun at the Show and be safe in your travels. :2thumbs:
now, now dave I used ALL the good stuff you provided-let's keep things positive :icon_smile_big:- thanks for all your help!!!
no seriously, today Johns car was judged & I had the opportunity to see the other Daytonas & it was a lot of fun. I could not have done it without the help of many people.
I got a sneak preview of Gene's car and it is just awesome and unique as you all will soon see!
Gene the plan as of now is to make it there on Sunday. Was going to be there all weekend but wouldn't you know football for Dakota starts Saturday.
Man,, in the spirit of the Olympics, this sounds like it going to be the Daytona-DreamTeam........ :2thumbs:
NOT ONE! NOT TWO! BUT THREE OE DAYTONAS AT THE SAME SHOW!
Linda and I got back late last night from our quick Mopar Nationals adventure! We walked the swamp meet Friday early. Then had lunch and made our way to the OE judging tent! The three Daytonas that were supposed to be there were there! John Antonellis Daytona was the first Daytona to be judged early Thursday. My first picture is of John standing by his yellow Daytona. Next up on Thursday was Tony D'Agastinos white Daytona. My second picture shows Tony's Daytona. When we arrived Friday afternoon Gene Lewis was just driving his Daytona up on the ramp for judging! Yes! They brought the lift back! The last two pictures are of Genes Daytona up on the lift getting ready for the judging! I got to talk with John and Tony but left Gene alone as it was crunch time and there were enough distractions already! There were so many people around this display of rare Mopar engineering that it was difficult to take pictures! ENJOY!
MJ
It will be a LONG time until we see three high caliber Daytonas like this under the tent at the same time. Very exciting.
I agree with Doug.Good job and good luck to all.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :2thumbs:
:coolgleamA: :drool5: good pictures
OE Gold ! Congrats to Gene and Tony!
congrats to gene lewis, mike mancini-Tony d and john Antonelli for three oe gold Daytonas! We will probably never see this again.
Congrats all :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
:drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
a big congrats to gene, john + paul j!!!
they earned gold, and all great guys to hang out with,
i wish my time over there wasnt so limited but i had to work my vendor spot
it was a cool site to see the 3 wings together, all different + all all great
a good weekend for all :cheers:
Way to go Geno!!!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: Awesome job!!!! Well Done!!!! :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: paul jacobs on August 11, 2012, 03:53:10 PM
congrats to gene lewis, mike mancini-Tony d and john Antonelli for three oe gold Daytonas! We will probably never see this again.
Swwhhhaaaaeeeettttt !!!!! :2thumbs:
Quote from: johntpr on August 11, 2012, 03:51:34 PM
OE Gold ! Congrats to Gene and Tony!
Hey John you did it!!!!!! The yellow looks excellent on a Daytona.
Congrats to Gene and Tony also.
Quote from: paul jacobs on August 11, 2012, 03:53:10 PM
congrats to gene lewis, mike mancini-Tony d and john Antonelli for three oe gold Daytonas! We will probably never see this again.
......and Paul Jacobs! Great Job and Congratulations to ALL you guys. :2thumbs: Especially Gene, since this is his great thread and extraordinary Restoration journey with Vance.
Quote from: paul jacobs on August 11, 2012, 03:53:10 PM
congrats to gene lewis, mike mancini-Tony d and john Antonelli for three oe gold Daytonas! We will probably never see this again.
Three gold!! Congrats guys.
Thats quite the accomplishment, congrats fellas!
Dave
kudos, to all three owners. it's great to see all of your efforts rewarded.
if ever there was a reason for a new thread with tons and tons of photos, these crown jewels (along with the borzych's gem) would be it.
Gene Lewis & Vance Cummins-best of show 2012 nats!!
:2thumbs:
Quote from: TONY on August 11, 2012, 06:12:44 PM
a big congrats to gene.........
Indeed!
THE JUDGES HAVE SPOKEN!!! :yesnod:
Congratulations Gene! I am very Happy/Proud for you and am thrilled with your successful results. This is poetic justice & redemption for the ordeal you experienced last year. Kudos to Gene & Vance! Enjoy the Victory and I will talk to you soon. :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Congrats Gene. The car was incredible.
Your typo "swamp meet" was pretty accurate! We spent the day sidestepping mudpuddles and standing water! I saw the cars under the tent on Saturday, looking good.
Benji
congratulations on taking top honors, gene.
congrats to Gene for best of show!!
im sure it feels great to see your hard work and research acknowledged and rewarded!!
way to go!
:2thumbs:
First and foremost, congrats to everyone! Well deserved im sure as I would love to own either of them!
Maybe it is my eyes or the distance of the photo but the window stickers look to be different sizes. Maybe it is just me. :shruggy:
Quote from: resq302 on August 12, 2012, 10:35:03 PM
Maybe it is my eyes or the distance of the photo but the window stickers look to be different sizes. Maybe it is just me. :shruggy:
i know what your doing so please lets not take this thread into the gutter, there is no need to go there
I got to see Johns car up close ( VERY nice btw ) and after talking for a bit, I got the feeling he was kind of glad yet kind of sad the journey was finally almost over.
And the judges kept the Best of Show winner secret till the very end .
Job well done to all .
Congratulations Gene! :2thumbs: :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: TONY on August 13, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
Quote from: resq302 on August 12, 2012, 10:35:03 PM
Maybe it is my eyes or the distance of the photo but the window stickers look to be different sizes. Maybe it is just me. :shruggy:
.....lets not take this thread into the gutter, there is no need to go there
Good call Tony! After being the target of
someone who spend years doing
EXACTLY what you have asked not to happen here, I commend your appeal for dignity and decency. :2thumbs:
To answer the question from resq302, I manufactured the Monroney labels for John and Gene. I guarantee they were the correct size and format. Again, Great job to everyone who worked so hard on their 2012 OE Gold Restorations!
Congrats Gene! (and the two others as well) this has been a long road for you, and ALL of us appreciate the extra time you spent documenting and posting the pictures here on the forum.
So now what are the future plans for the Daytona?
Thanks again and congrats!
:2thumbs:
Scott
Quote from: 70Sbird on August 13, 2012, 08:46:29 AM
Congrats Gene! (and the two others as well) this has been a long road for you, and ALL of us appreciate the extra time you spent documenting and posting the pictures here on the forum.
So now what are the future plans for the Daytona?
Thanks again and congrats!
:2thumbs:
Scott
well you know hes got like .07 of a mile on it now it might be time to tear it all apart and do a complete restoration on it . :smilielol: :poke: :nana: Seriously Congrats to you gene great job beautiful car , and to the other two daytonas also .
Congrats Hemi Geno :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Tony, I do not know what you mean. :shruggy: All I was curious was that they looked to be different sizes. If they are the same size (which they very well could be due to angle, location, distance, etc) then no biggy. I am sure that it is what it should be with you reproing correct detailed parts, I am sure that the stuff on the car was correct. Again, I was unfortunately not there to see the stuff in person so I have to go by pictures and as we all know with pictures. colors, shapes, and sizes can appear different than what they actually are! My charger appears orange in some pics while it is R4 red. Again, I was not trying to start anything, just something I noticed and had a question on. :cheers:
So what are the golden boys going to do now with their winged thingies now that it's over?
Retire or go on tour? Think that's what the olympians do.... :yesnod: :icon_smile_big:
Oh wait, or do endorsements.. do I see a Daytona on a Wheaties box in somebody's future... :D
:Twocents: You had 3 excellent cars Congrats to all 3. Judges had to have there work cut out for them to scrutinize details.Any recognazible judges like Dave Patik Galen Roger Gibson etc involved.Wouldnt mind seeing what format judging sheet used criteria .I have some from Patik 90-92 and great reference of how it should be correct in what area in detail
HEMIGENO!
First I would like to congradulate you on the BEST OF SHOW! Next up would be the OE GOLD CERTIFICATION of your Daytona! You and your shop of Vance Cummings can be very proud of the accomplishment! At this time I would also like to thank you for taking us along with this very public thread though the good and the bad! Not everything went your way but you stuck with it and made it! What a journy it was! I know the thread has inspired me and helped me and many others to make our Daytonas better!
Thanks! Mopar John :2thumbs:
Quote from: nascarxx29 on August 13, 2012, 11:56:14 AM
:Twocents: You had 3 excellent cars Congrats to all 3. Judges had to have there work cut out for them to scrutinize details.Any recognazible judges like Dave Patik Galen Roger Gibson etc involved.Wouldnt mind seeing what format judging sheet used criteria .I have some from Patik 90-92 and great reference of how it should be correct in what area in detail
Dave,
The judges did have a HUGE task in judging the details of these 3 fine Daytonas! If they give Geno, John and Tony the same type of results with the same format's we received in 2010 it will be difficult to corolate point values to the results given?
MJ
Thanks John I know its all in the details no matter who judges :Twocents: If you didnt have a flat washer under your wing nut for the battery mounting etc etc.That made you or broke you.
A heart-felt thank you to everyone. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm relieved and about ready to collapse now that it's all over. I tried very hard to keep a proper perspective on things throughout the whole process, and overall I didn't wig out... too much. I'm still waiting for John to post the photo he texted me. Then, we can have a "caption this" contest. :icon_smile_blackeye:
I have already said that I would not have been surprised at all if John's or Tony's Daytona had been awarded Best Of Show honors.
Quote from: TONY on August 12, 2012, 07:54:26 PM
congrats to Gene for best of show!!
im sure it feels great to see your hard work and research acknowledged and rewarded!!
way to go!
:2thumbs:
Thanks, Tony. Congratulations are in order for you and Mike as well on your car's stellar results! :cheers: It was also very neat to see the "reunion" of sorts that happened with your car's second owner. I'm sure you've already forgiven him for sitting in the car before you did...
Quote from: moparstuart on August 13, 2012, 08:51:32 AM
Quote from: 70Sbird on August 13, 2012, 08:46:29 AM
So now what are the future plans for the Daytona?
well you know hes got like .07 of a mile on it now it might be time to tear it all apart and do a complete restoration on it . :smilielol: :poke: :nana:
If that wasn't so true, it'd be funny... :icon_smile_blackeye: I'm already making a mental list. :slap:
:lol:
Quote from: WINGIN IT on August 13, 2012, 11:53:54 AM
So what are the golden boys going to do now with their winged thingies now that it's over?
Retire or go on tour? Think that's what the olympians do.... :yesnod: :icon_smile_big:
Oh wait, or do endorsements.. do I see a Daytona on a Wheaties box in somebody's future... :D
Yeah, the deals have already started rolling in - but I was hoping for a little more.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/OldMoparz/Various%20Moparz%202/GenesHuggiesDaytona.jpg)
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Congrats to all three of you. Geno, get a little rest before you start that re-restoration again :cheers:
Quote from: ECS on August 13, 2012, 08:32:57 AM
Again, Great job to everyone who worked so hard on their 2012 OE Gold Restorations!
Thanks Dave! Just like the turtle who found himself resting comfortably on top of a fencepost - I did not get where I am without a lot of help. You've been particularly helpful with several things on the car, plus providing me a sandwich & fries every now and again. Nothing like having to next-day-air a couple of forgotten items to the hotel, eh? I'll see you soon, my friend.
Quote from: hemigeno on August 13, 2012, 01:43:02 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on August 13, 2012, 08:51:32 AM
Quote from: 70Sbird on August 13, 2012, 08:46:29 AM
So now what are the future plans for the Daytona?
well you know hes got like .07 of a mile on it now it might be time to tear it all apart and do a complete restoration on it . :smilielol: :poke: :nana:
If that wasn't so true, it'd be funny... :icon_smile_blackeye: I'm already making a mental list. :slap:
:lol:
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemigeno on August 13, 2012, 01:39:38 PM
A heart-felt thank you to everyone. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm relieved and about ready to collapse now that it's all over. I tried very hard to keep a proper perspective on things throughout the whole process, and overall I didn't wig out... too much. I'm still waiting for John to post the photo he texted me. Then, we can have a "caption this" contest. :icon_smile_blackeye:
Quote from: hemigeno on August 13, 2012, 01:39:38 PM
we can have a "caption this" contest. :icon_smile_blackeye:
how about
"oh my god, i think the lift is coming down on keith" :rofl:
forget the car. i want to see the before and after photos of his hair color.
( my photo caption is ) Really , Three of these damn boats this year , why couldnt they all be cuda's ?
Congrats Gene all your hard work really paid off now it's time to enjoy it.
Genes thinking "Oh no I just remembered that we forgot to fix the stripe we put on backwards and to put the steering column back to left hand drive"! ( See above picture with Huggies sign photoshopped on ). :lol:
I was interested on the grading points system criteria and was surprised to read .The often lost and or missing Buildsheet paperwork added points.
http://www.moparnats.org/documents/2013_Mopar_Nationals_OE_Certification.pdf
Quote from: moparstuart on August 13, 2012, 08:44:31 PM
Really Three of these damn boats this year , why couldnt they all be cuda's ?
ditto. dumb wing cars.
Not that long ago they were all Cuda's. :lol: (or it sure seemed like it)
In that pic that John posted, what are those 2 black squares on the valence panel?
I don't recall seeing those before. Or is that a OE Gold thing that I wouldn't ever know about :shruggy: :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: WINGIN IT on August 14, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
In that pic that John posted, what are those 2 black squares on the valence panel?
I don't recall seeing those before. Or is that a OE Gold thing that I wouldn't ever know about :shruggy: :icon_smile_big:
Are you refering to the air intakes in the nose? :shruggy:
Thanks again, everyone.
Quote from: 69hemidaytona on August 13, 2012, 11:21:03 PM
Genes thinking "Oh no I just remembered that we forgot to fix the stripe we put on backwards and to put the steering column back to left hand drive"! ( See above picture with Huggies sign photoshopped on ). :lol:
;D Yeah, I saw that when Old Moparz posted it up, and I'm sure there's a reason. If I call him out on it, he'll do something far worse... :P
Quote from: held1823 on August 13, 2012, 08:43:34 PM
forget the car. i want to see the before and after photos of his hair color.
... back when I HAD hair... :pullinghair:
Quote from: WINGIN IT on August 14, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
In that pic that John posted, what are those 2 black squares on the valence panel?
I don't recall seeing those before. Or is that a OE Gold thing that I wouldn't ever know about :shruggy: :icon_smile_big:
I seen that picture just a second ago those are the cooling intakes under the nose Ive seen those vary in size due mostly random workmanship
Do all Daytonas have them?
I don't recall ever seeing them before.Guess I never had the where with all to look ...
Daytonas did have them for air intake it was those 2 holes and front grille.Superbirds didnt have those holes the air intake was through the honey comb center grille.
:Twocents: Everytime I see a different car. I see something. I can learn about it.Ive seen daytona front spoilers either color or black.The little extension bracket coming off the K frame where valance is notched.Ive seen it black .But maybe due to conversion paint got on it
Surrounded by classic cars as part of my job and I learn something new every single day and stuff I think I know, I rarely do. Sadly, I seem to forget it all but each day is an auto history adventure. :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
Congrats on the best of show Gene :cheers:
Congrats on the Gold and Best of Show Geno!! FB called and told me. Congrats to John and Tony as well!
Been there - Done that......it's like having a baby! :^)
Thank you, Chris & Jimbo...
Jim, maybe now you won't cringe as much when you see you have a PM or email from this American nutjob who thinks you have nothing better to do than crawl around in your garage with a flashlight & camera. :P
:cheers:
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
Quote from: hemigeno on August 15, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
Thank you, Chris & Jimbo...
Jim, maybe now you won't cringe as much when you see you have a PM or email from this American nutjob who thinks you have nothing better to do than crawl around in your garage with a flashlight & camera. :P
:cheers:
I never cringe......I am sailing on the SS Nutjob too...........Just unable to answer too much this summer....waaaaaaaaaaay too much going on! :lol:
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
Yeh, did anyone have to argue their case or prove to them certain things? I know I have never seen those kind of hub caps on John's daytona before but was corrected when John and I were talking.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
With the Nats judging - you will be lucky to find out until almost a year later.
Quote from: resq302 on August 15, 2012, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
Yeh, did anyone have to argue their case or prove to them certain things? I know I have never seen those kind of hub caps on John's daytona before but was corrected when John and I were talking.
My Charger was originally coded for those caps as well (W11)...I have a spare set in the garage when I want to get OE Judged....
;)
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on August 15, 2012, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: resq302 on August 15, 2012, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
Yeh, did anyone have to argue their case or prove to them certain things? I know I have never seen those kind of hub caps on John's daytona before but was corrected when John and I were talking.
My Charger was originally coded for those caps as well (W11)...I have a spare set in the garage when I want to get OE Judged....
;)
doesnt Mopar John's blue daytona have them on it
There were some B&W advertising photos floating around back then too of a Daytona with the W11 "Deluxe" wheel covers. Ignore the '70 high-back seats in the bottom photo, as I don't think we ever came to a conclusion about whether this was a mock-up or retouched photograph.
John's Y2 daytona does / did have them but when the car was orange, it had different hub caps on them. I think they were the simulated mag wheel hub cap. I'll have to look at his old signature pic again.
Quote from: resq302 on August 15, 2012, 04:30:10 PM
John's Y2 daytona does / did have them but when the car was orange, it had different hub caps on them. I think they were the simulated mag wheel hub cap. I'll have to look at his old signature pic again.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on August 15, 2012, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
With the Nats judging - you will be lucky to find out until almost a year later.
Read it in a magazine first?
Quote from: hemigeno on August 15, 2012, 03:53:20 PM
There were some B&W advertising photos floating around back then too of a Daytona with the W11 "Deluxe" wheel covers. Ignore the '70 high-back seats in the bottom photo, as I don't think we ever came to a conclusion about whether this was a mock-up or retouched photograph.
first picture
think thats the 22" radiator daytona magazine test car too
Road test Dec 69
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/daytonaradiator.jpg).
Quote from: Ghoste on August 16, 2012, 01:47:06 AM
Quote from: maxwellwedge on August 15, 2012, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 15, 2012, 12:24:12 PM
You guys all didn't get the same score, so let's hear where each of you lost points. :D
With the Nats judging - you will be lucky to find out until almost a year later.
Read it in a magazine first?
They take their time mailing the cerificate and the score sheet re-cap....up to a year.
Twocents: A guy I know posted what his X9 70 V code charger lack in judging from the nats .Any help or pictures you can provide would be greatly appreciaed.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,94263.0.html
what is the deal with the orange/red tona and the cream colored engine bay?? is that a tona thing or something special for that car??
Quote from: mauve66 on August 16, 2012, 06:59:35 PM
what is the deal with the orange/red tona and the cream colored engine bay?? is that a tona thing or something special for that car??
Yes, it was part of the extremely limited Ronald McDonald SE Daytona package. :smilielol:
The car was originally yellow; the exterior repainted orange early in life. The engine bay had been covered in black undercoat and was painstakingly cleaned off. The car has now been restored to all yellow as when it was new.
Ronald McDonald SE. :lol: :smilielol: It would have made a great ad car though. ;)
Quote from: Aero426 on August 16, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
Quote from: mauve66 on August 16, 2012, 06:59:35 PM
what is the deal with the orange/red tona and the cream colored engine bay?? is that a tona thing or something special for that car??
Yes, it was part of the extremely limited Ronald McDonald SE Daytona package. :smilielol:
The car was originally yellow; the exterior repainted orange early in life. The engine bay had been covered in black undercoat and was painstakingly cleaned off. The car has now been restored to all yellow as when it was new.
From what I heard if I remember right from John was that the original owner got the car and really did not like the Y2 yellow and got into a minor accident where the pass side door skin got damaged and that is when he had the car repainted in the EV2 orange. If he was just going for an exterior paint job, it makes sense as to why the engine bay, door jambs, etc were not painted also.
Lets keep this topic about Gene's car !
And what a fantastic example of a R4 red daytona it is! :2thumbs:
OK, now that the car has had its proper debut, I can put out a bit more of the "expanded" history of the car as relayed by the second owner back in March. This is long enough it'll take a couple of replies, so bear with me here...
On Wednesday, 3/28/2012 I drove 285 miles to the small town of Maysville, MO where the second owner of my Daytona temporarily resides. His name is Jerry Meade, and I had spoken with him back in 2003 after finding his name in a State of Missouri title search. He was great to talk with back then, and even more helpful this time around. We spent four hours going over photos and some of the documents I've collected about that car and Chrysler's Daytona program in general, but mostly I sat back and listened to the tales he told about driving/owning a muscle car "back in the day". Very entertaining, to say the least!
Unfortunately, Jerry has Parkinson's Disease – which is a battle he will fight for the rest of his life. So far the medication he takes does a decent job of controlling the disease's affects on his ability to function, but the right dosage is a delicate balance between too much (which gives him lots of pep but causes borderline hallucinogenic problems) and not enough (which allows the disease's symptoms to restrict his motor skills and ability to function independently). He's been staying at a residential care facility for the past several months while they help him get everything balanced just right, and that is where I was able to meet him. Thankfully his mind is still wonderfully sharp, he still has a decent amount of mobility, and he even has enough dexterity to sign his name in the front of a photo album I made up for him to keep. Anyway...
Jerry's wing car history began when a brother-in-law (he has seven sisters, so there are a bunch of these) bought a new Duster from a dealership in Harrisonville, MO. The same dealer had a Superbird on the lot, which the B-I-L thought Jerry might like since he was in the market for a car as well. This was 1970-71, and he was fresh out of the service with a few dollars in the bank to spend. Jerry absolutely loved the wing car look, but before he could scrape together all the money to purchase it, the dealership went bankrupt and the 'Bird was sold off in the liquidation. He didn't know if it was a new or used 'Bird, but the wing and nose look was exactly what he wanted. He didn't find another wing car right away, so he ended up buying a customized '69 RoadRunner which was for sale cheap. Fast forward a year or so down the road...
Jerry's B-I-L deer hunted in northern Missouri every year, and on the way to his deer camp the last weekend of deer season in 1972 he got off I-35 just to get gas in the small town of Cameron, MO. While driving by a small Chrysler-Plymouth dealership, he noticed this nice-looking red Daytona with slotted wheels sitting on the lot. The B-I-L called Jerry to let him know about the car, who decided to drive up and take a look. As it turns out, the dealership's owner wanted to move the car, since Jerry said the local kids were constantly stopping in and bugging the salesmen about it. Jerry stated the car was listed for $2,600, but he told the owner that he only had $1,750 in the bank – and that's what he would pay for the car. After a few moments, the dealer agreed. Fearing that the car would be sold out from under him and he'd lose out as with the 'Bird, Jerry made a quick trip back to Kansas City to the bank. Due to some mechanical issues with the 'Runner he barely made it back to the dealership before they closed. By this time, the B-I-L had returned from hunting and was prepared to help get the new purchase back to KC. On the way home, the headlights kept getting dimmer and dimmer until the car died. They had to drag it to a friend's house where they charged the battery overnight. The next day, the car drove fine (it was daytime so no need for headlights).
Jerry tried to drive the car to work the next night (he worked the night shift at Hallmark Cards), however the same thing happened – dimming headlights and the car died... no juice again. As it turns out, the wiring harness lead to the alternator was damaged and the alternator was not charging the battery. This makes perfect sense to me after hearing the original owner tell of multiple instances where the alternator bolt broke after a hard launch – which probably caused the alternator positive lead/wire to be damaged. At any rate, Jerry chose to replace the entire engine harness with a new Chrysler harness set just to make sure the problem was completely solved.
Since Jerry had cleaned out his bank account to buy the car, he did not have enough money to pay the sales tax and to license the car. I had always wondered why the State's title history showed a purchase date of 11/27/72, but the title was dated 5/08/73. Jerry explained that lag time perfectly, as he simply transferred the plate back and forth from his '69 Runner to the Daytona depending on which he wanted to drive. When he got enough money together to pay the taxes/registration, he did so. Made sense to me!
Another mechanical issue he had right off the bat was with the oiling system. He had told me back in 2003 that the oil pressure in the car would gradually drop when the car's RPMs got over 3,000. I had understood that issue was why the engine was replaced under warranty – but Jerry told me that was just a quirk of the car, and was never addressed at least while the original engine block was in place. Jerry clearly remembered the car having a tachometer when he bought it, although it was an aftermarket unit mounted on the steering column... probably much more accurate than the factory tachs. Either the original selling dealership (St. Joseph Dodge), the original owner (Terry Alden), or the Cameron dealership added the tach somewhere along the line. I asked Jerry if the car used oil, as Terry Alden had told me about taking the car back to St. Joseph Dodge numerous times for that reason. Terry's dealership would top off the oil and tell him to drive the car around, purportedly as an "oil consumption test" – but Terry thought they were just trying to put him off. They did eventually replace the piston rings once under warranty, so at least some work was done to fix that problem. Jerry did not remember the car using oil, but he said he changed the oil often enough that he wouldn't have noticed it using much oil. The first year or more of his ownership, he changed the oil each month even though he put very few miles on the car just driving it on weekends. He did remember the K-member seal being in place when he bought the car, but doesn't remember whether he kept re-installing it each time or whether it was discarded at some point.
The whole engine replacement story was different than I had assumed from the 2003 conversation. Jerry explained that he and a friend of his named Earl drove to a shop in Appleton City, MO, to check on a Yenko Camaro motor that was being rebuilt for use in Earl's 1968 Chevelle. Earl ended up quasi-racing a Gran Prix. Earl (a lifelong GM guy) was driving, and Jerry thought the engine was revving a lot higher than he normally ran. He looked over at the tach which he recalls read 7,500rpm – and the speedometer showed around 150mph. He said he NEVER revved the car that high, and knew that a big block Mopar was comfortable up to 5,500 to 6,000 rpm but not much beyond that. Factory tach's always read fast anyway, but this was pushing things a bit too far. Sure enough, the engine started making loud knocking sounds. Jerry told Earl that if he was going to break it, to break it all the way and not halfway – that way he would be sure of getting a new engine under warranty. So, he says they kept going for another half hour before the motor finally quit and they coasted to a stop on the shoulder of the highway. Earl's father worked part-time at a towing company, which is how the car was taken to the dealership.
Second Owner's story, continued...
When Jerry purchased the car from the dealership in Cameron, he said he got a "second owner's warranty" – which did nothing more than extend the 5yr/50,000 mile warranty to a subsequent purchaser. Expecting the repairs to be covered under that warranty, Jerry had the car towed to Mitch Crawford Dodge, located on US Highway 50 in Raytown, MO. The first thing the dealership mechanic did after the car was dropped off by the tow truck was to check the tire wear on the front tires. We're not sure if this was to determine if the car's odometer reading matched the expected wear on the tires, but that would have been a moot point since Jerry said it already had radial tires on the front (the originals would have been bias ply redline tires). When the dealership balked at the repairs (guessing that the engine had been abused), Jerry called the Regional Sales Manager to complain. He said it took only a week for that appeal to generate results, and the dealership was ordered to fix his car.
With regard to the engine replacement, I was particularly interested in whether the replacement block was ever painted orange. Jerry said that it absolutely was not painted, and was left bare cast iron. He wrote that off as the dealership being angry with him about having to perform the warranty work, however it's my understanding that it was standard operating procedure for a dealership to leave a replacement block in its bare casting form... not to say that ALL blocks were left bare, but other men with dealership connections from "back in the day" have remembrances which mirror the experience Jerry had with his warranty replacement block. I had made the comment that they might have re-used the camshaft in addition to the heads, intake, etc. – which caused Jerry to grin and say "Oh, I doubt it". That's when he relayed the part about telling Earl not to break the motor only halfway. I asked if the original engine block was windowed by a thrown rod. Jerry didn't seem to think so, as he said there was no puddle of oil underneath the car when it finally quit. He remembered that the camshaft was broken in two places, so whatever rotating parts which grenaded at the time of final engine failure must have flown up and broken the cam. Regardless, there had been enough damage to warrant installation of the replacement short block.
He again recounted how the mechanics installed the clutch disc backward during the short block swap, which caused the clutch center section's springs to make contact with the flywheel bolts. Shortly after the engine work was performed, Jerry took the car back to Mitch Crawford Dodge because of the grinding noise it made when the clutch pedal was depressed. The dealership told him that the noise was due to an oil-soaked clutch disc, and they threatened to charge Jerry for the entire repair bill if he made them tear it out and they determined it was the clutch disc as they said. Jerry was savvy enough to know that an oil-soaked disc would not cause the metal-on-metal grinding sound he heard – but he was afraid that the dealership would conceal the true cause and would instead show him an old, worn disc as "evidence" of the source. Jerry said he had replaced the flywheel and clutch assembly only a few months prior to the engine failure, so he was sure the clutch was fine before the engine replacement, but he didn't want to risk gambling on the repair costs with the dealership so he decided not to have the clutch repaired. He said the noise eventually went away and all seemed fine – until the clutch failed again shortly after he got married in June of 1975 (less than 18 months after the engine replacement) When Jerry replaced that clutch unit himself, he discovered what the dealership had done with the disc back in early 1974. While replacing the clutch (again), he wanted to replace the flywheel bolts too, but didn't have any tools to remove the rounded and ground-down bolts. Jerry relayed again about how the spark plug wire retaining clips inside the boots were intentionally opened up so much that four of them had fallen off the spark plugs by the time he was a block away from the dealership. Other specific details he remembered about the replacement work was that they re-used cylinder heads, intake, carb, oil pan, and all the other basic engine "accessories" which are bolted to the block.
This warranty replacement work was performed in February of 1974, finishing up in either late February or very early March at the absolute latest. Jerry said that it was the first decently warm day of the year when he and Earl made the ill-fated run which ruined the engine. He estimated that the repair work took maybe 2 weeks tops, plus the week it took before the dealership was ordered by the RSM to make the repairs. Jerry remembers it being a warm late-winter's day after a long stretch of cold weather when he went to pick the car up from the dealership after the engine replacement work.
One of the details we talked about was the mileage of the car. He doesn't remember exactly how many miles it had on it when he bought it, but was sure it was in the 22 - 24,000 range. At first he did not drive the car much during the week, mostly on weekends. He figured the car had right around 25,000 miles on it when the block was replaced, as he had owned it just over a year at the time and had driven the car around only on nicer weekends. After his little brother wrecked his '69 'Runner, he had to use the Daytona as a daily driver from January 1975 through late 1976 or the very early part of 1977. This was when he put the majority of his miles on the car. He met his wife in January of 1975 during that period of time, and they were married in June of that year. His wife refused to drive the Daytona (perhpas related to a comment he made early on in their marriage that if it came down to a choice between her or the Daytona, she would have to go). During the fall of '76 Jerry and his wife purchased a 1976 Charger Daytona that had been used as a dealer demo. He remembered doing the same thing with the '76 Daytona that he had done with the '69 Daytona after first purchasing it... transferring the plates between the two cars depending on what they wanted to drive. Once again, when they had the money together to pay the sales taxes, they titled the '76 and were then able to license it. They licensed the '76 'Tona in very early 1977, as he said they would not have bothered having the '69 Daytona inspected had they not needed to keep its plates up for use on the new car. He said a police officer had pointed out that his '69s old plates were about to expire, so he figured he had better not take any further chances. Once they paid the sales taxes, the '69 Daytona was relegated back to weekend/pleasure driving only. He wasn't exactly clear on why he decided to drive the '69 to work the night of the engine fire, but figured it was because his wife needed the '76 that evening for whatever reason. I showed him the last Missouri registration slip for the car and the two mileage notations made on it. One was written by the safety inspection mechanic, and the other was a notation made across the front of the slip – which Jerry said had to be the miles the car had on it when it burned. The registration was dated December 17, 1976, and the engine fire happened in the spring of 1977. For at least a few weeks in that stretch of time he was using the car as a daily driver until the '76 was fully licensed/registered. There were 1,931 miles clocked in the 3-4 months between the last safety inspection and the engine fire, so it's quite likely his recollection is correct.
Second Owner's story, Round III (final installment)
Speaking of the engine fire... I was able to show Jerry the pictures graciously given to me by Doug Schellinger/DSAC, which showed the car as it was in 1980 – just days after Jerry sold it to a co-worker at Hallmark. In those photos you can see the top side of the engine, especially the Holley carburetor and a small stub of fuel line. He said he wasn't sure if the clear plastic fuel line they used between the fuel pump and the carburetor had actually come off the steel fuel line stub to the carburetor, or was just leaking enough that it finally caught fire. Either way, that was the source. One odd recollection of his related to this topic: As he drove along on his way to work (night shift), he noticed the glow of the engine fire coming from underneath the hood – but the car was still running fine. Knowing there was a big problem in the works, he quickly got to a better section of road with a shoulder and pulled off. He said a fire truck just happened to drive by within minutes of his stop (they were NOT called to the scene by anyone), and they jumped right in to put out the fire. If he had been driving the car during the day, the fire damage could have been much worse before he noticed what was going on – but because he was driving to work at night, he saw what was happening that much sooner. Considering that there were no cellphones and no way to quickly summon help in 1977, this fortuitous set of circumstances kept the car from burning all the way to the ground as it would have done otherwise.
He again told of the firemen breaking out the driver's side window to hose down the dash which had caught fire by this time. When the car was disassembled, we found lots of broken glass inside the door which testified to the truth of this statement. He also relayed how, after the fire, the car was towed to a nearby service station. While parked there for this brief time, the car had its shift knob stolen – a Hurst "T" handle which Jerry said had been on the car since his purchase.
Jerry said that perhaps American Family Insurance still had records of the car's claim history, since they paid off after the engine fire (not likely, but I doubt I will follow up). Because it was an 8 year old used car at the time, American Family settled the claim by paying Jerry $1,000 and he could keep the car. He wanted to do it that way, figuring he might be able to eventually put the car back together. It would have been cost-prohibitive for any insurance company to have paid to repair the damage, even back in 1977.
I asked him if the car ever ran hot, and he said it did – and that he had the original radiator re-cored once and had replaced the water pump several times. Mostly, he said he just never let it idle for very long to help prevent vapor lock.
Jerry noticed snow tires in one of the photos from 1980, and said that he regularly drove the car in the snow. He remembers that with studded tires, he could get around most anywhere – and only got stuck once. In that incident, he got stuck on icy roads near his rural home (there are rolling hills nearby). He couldn't go up the next hill, or back the way he came. In the process of trying, he hit a neighbor's mailbox.
I asked about the other visible dents/damage, and he recounted the car being sideswiped on the driver's side quarterpanel as I had been told before. This time, he added more information... the body guy who was paid by the insurance company to do the repairs was supposed to have hung a new quarterpanel in place. Instead, he pocketed the extra money, pop-riveted some sheet metal in place and used a train car load of bondo to fix the Daytona. Jerry remarked how he thought karma had settled that score, as shortly after the guy repaired Jerry's car, the body guy bought a speedboat even though he didn't know how to swim. Not being an experienced boater, he capsized during his first trip out on the Missouri River and drowned. Later on, a neighbor backed into the Daytona while it was parked on the street, and a good portion of the bondo popped out – exposing the poor repair work.
Here's another interesting tidbit related to the mileage which didn't make sense until later: Jerry said that all the mileage totals being discussed were accurate, but that the car did run for a short while with a broken speedometer cable. He said that the cable was resting on the H-pipe and it burned the housing, seizing the cable inside the speedometer/odometer housing. He estimated that maybe a thousand miles were driven before he replaced the cable. The interesting part was when I mentioned that little snippet of info to Vance, he perked right up. As it turns out, Vance's guys noticed during the floor pan sheet metal repair work that there was no clip on the underside to hold the speedometer cable in place and off the exhaust. It still isn't clear whether the clip had been knocked off somehow, simply fell off, or whether it had been accidentally omitted from the factory. Assuming that it had fallen or been knocked off, Vance's crew sourced another clip and installed it in the proper factory position. Without very careful forensic analysis of the area to determine if the clip had been installed at one time, it would be difficult to say with any certainty that it was a factory mistake. I'm relieved they took this step, as it would be difficult to explain to every "inspector" of the car that the missing clip had NOT been forgotten but was deliberately omitted to replicate a factory error (if that was indeed the case). That would be a long and unnecessary explanation I would tire of giving rather quickly.
Jerry has graciously agreed to furnish a signed statement which runs down the particulars of the engine block swap performed in '74. For the record... I have personally contacted the Mitch Crawford dealership in Raytown twice – once in 2003 just days after my first conversation with Jerry, and again in early 2012. When the first contact was made, the dealership was still affiliated with Chrysler. I spoke to two or three people, including the Sales Manager who had the longest tenure of anyone at the dealership. He basically laughed when I asked about the possibility of service records from 1973-4 still being available. He said that they kept nothing older than seven years, and that there was zero chance of such records remaining anywhere. On a whim, and hoping to speak to one of the owners of the firm, I contacted them again in early 2012. Unfortunately, I discovered that Mitch Crawford's dealership was one that lost its franchise rights during Chrysler's reorganization which accompanied the government bailout. They are now a small used car lot. Regardless, I asked again about any records related to the warranty work and was told that very little Chrysler-related paperwork remained in existence, and certainly nothing that went back that far. I detected a fair amount of animosity towards the topic of Chrysler in general, and won't bother trying to contact them any more.
:2thumbs: Great info very cool hearing about all the local places and wing history .
Crawford was still a good strong dealership untill the whole bankruptcy and forced closers of just a couple years ago .
They had three locations all still in Raytown , Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep stores . :rotz:
I bought one of my early cars there back in 85 a daily driver horizon . My dad bought several cars there over the years .....
Wow thats cool owner history there :2thumbs: :2thumbs: .Reminds you me of Dave K cars story engine issues etc when car was new and the owners dilema Ed Schram dodge
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,48894.msg534053.html#msg534053
Quote from: nascarxx29 on August 17, 2012, 03:01:40 PM
Wow thats cool owner history there :2thumbs: :2thumbs: .Reminds you me of Dave K cars story engine issues etc when car was new and the owners dilema Ed Schram dodge
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,48894.msg534053.html#msg534053
that car was pretty close to me also ...
Gene,
Amazing story and history of the car. I would kill to get something like that with mine. Actually, this year at Carlisle, I came across new info on my car about when the original motor in my car had been blown and was last known to be in someones basement. Im still waiting for the person to get back to me with the info he had. :rotz:
Related to the above story from Owner #2 is an interesting possibility for next weekend. As long as the weather holds out, I am taking the Daytona back to the Kansas City area for the first time since 1981. All four of the titled owners for this particular car are currently planning to be at Smithville Lake, where I've rented a park pavilion for the day. This will be the first time the car's original owner will have seen it since 1972, and (other than photographs), the first time Jerry Meade will have seen it since 1980. Davtona has seen the car a couple of times of course, but not since it's had the heart transplant back to the warranty replacement block.
I'm really looking forward to getting all these guys together, and listening to more stories. Plus, I have held off driving the car out on the road for when Jerry Meade can be there - since it still hasn't been driven on the highway after Jerry had his engine fire in '77. That may not be a big deal to some, but I think it'll be a neat thing. I also have a couple of large-size photos printed up that I'd like all the owners to sign, and hopefully we can take some photos together as a group.
Moparstuart (maybe Wayne Perkins??) has said he could attend, so it'll be more than just the 4 of us. Last Saturday and what's expected for tomorrow have both been absolutely perfect from a weather standpoint, so it'll probably be my luck that next weekend the area will have thunderstorms or maybe even snow :brickwall:
Quote from: hemigeno on September 14, 2012, 12:15:03 PM
Related to the above story from Owner #2 is an interesting possibility for next weekend. As long as the weather holds out, I am taking the Daytona back to the Kansas City area for the first time since 1981. All four of the titled owners for this particular car are currently planning to be at Smithville Lake, where I've rented a park pavilion for the day. This will be the first time the car's original owner will have seen it since 1972, and (other than photographs), the first time Jerry Meade will have seen it since 1980. Davtona has seen the car a couple of times of course, but not since it's had the heart transplant back to the warranty replacement block.
I'm really looking forward to getting all these guys together, and listening to more stories. Plus, I have held off driving the car out on the road for when Jerry Meade can be there - since it still hasn't been driven on the highway after Jerry had his engine fire in '77. That may not be a big deal to some, but I think it'll be a neat thing. I also have a couple of large-size photos printed up that I'd like all the owners to sign, and hopefully we can take some photos together as a group.
Moparstuart (maybe Wayne Perkins??) has said he could attend, so it'll be more than just the 4 of us. Last Saturday and what's expected for tomorrow have both been absolutely perfect from a weather standpoint, so it'll probably be my luck that next weekend the area will have thunderstorms or maybe even snow :brickwall:
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: I still plan on it , I think wayne is going to MMW in indy but i will see him tomorrow in Ottawa and find out for sure .
Am still planning on attending Gene. :2thumbs: Looking foward to meeting everyone and seeing the car once again. Ya and hoping for good weather also. :yesnod:
tomorrows the day , cant wait to :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
Thanks for all your help today Stuart - and Davtona too. You guys were great, and I think both Terry & Jerry enjoyed the fruits of our collective labor.
Thanks again!
:cheers:
(too tired right now to post the few pics I took)
Gene are you bringing the Daytona to MCACN?
good story & info !! on your Daytona histoy , awesome to know stuff like that about your car back in the day !!! thanks for sharing HemiGeno :yesnod: :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on September 22, 2012, 08:01:13 PM
Thanks for all your help today Stuart - and Davtona too. You guys were great, and I think both Terry & Jerry enjoyed the fruits of our collective labor.
Thanks again!
:cheers:
(too tired right now to post the few pics I took)
:cheers: :cheers: had a blast and always great hanging with you guys :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: sorry if you have to clean up the :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: :drool5: from dave and I and even Ian :icon_smile_big:
i loved hearing the stories about the car back in the day great stuff , priceless :2thumbs:
OK, here's a bit of an update from last weekend's "reunion" with the previous owners of my Daytona. We met on Saturday at a rented pavilion on Smithville Lake just north of KC, MO. Moparstuart gets credit for the location, as he's the one who suggested it. :2thumbs: The weather overall was great, but a bit on the chilly side and VERY windy. Had it not been for the strong breeze coming off the lake, it'd have been perfect - although I'm just glad it wasn't raining.
All four of the titled owners of this car were thankfully able to attend. I had met Jerry Meade (the second owner) back in March, as mentioned elsewhere. Two of Jerry's sons were able to come along, including one with a very early connection to the car... Jerry took his wife to the hospital while she was in labor with Rich, and brought Mom & Rich home from the hospital in the car as well. No roadside deliveries, incidentally. Terry, his wife and I met for the first time on Friday night for supper, although we had chatted on the phone several times since 2004. Dave, well, he's probably sick of hearing from me by now... :P
The first two pics are of the four titled owners... from left to right are Dave H. (Davtona), yours truly, Jerry Meade, and Terry Alden. In case anyone was wondering and didn't want to go digging for the info in this thread somewhere, the other guys' ownership periods are:
Terry - 3/70 to 10/72
Jerry - 11/72 to 11/81
Dave - 11/81 to 8/03
I snapped the last two as Jerry was signing one of the photographs I had printed up to give to the owners. The prints being signed were shot by Mopar Action's photographer for use in their upcoming article. It seemed like a cool idea to have all four owners' signature, so I asked each of them to sign a couple of the photos. As it turns out, each of the guys ended up getting one of their two prints signed by the group as well - so I must not have been the only one who thought it was neat.
Awesome gathering there Geno!
There were probably some intersting stories swapped! Had any of these guys met previously or known one another?
:2thumbs:
Geno, that is an outstanding story my friend !!! :2thumbs:
Among several very neat things, Jerry brought two vintage photos of the car I hadn't seen before and he hadn't seen in quite a long time. From the condition of the car and the foliage, Jerry figures the photos were taken in the spring or early summer of 1973. The photos are a little on the grainy side (made worse I'm sure by taking a picture of them with my digital camera), but it's readily apparent the car still looked pretty awesome then. The polished slot wheels were installed by Terry, but the great stance and look of the car with this combo is one of the reasons Jerry jumped on his chance to buy the car in '72. This is pretty much how the car looked when Terry traded it in.
Incidentally, Terry said that he received $1,000 as a trade-in allowance on the 1972 340 auto 'Cuda he bought at the time he got rid of the Daytona. Jerry relayed again that he told the salesman at the dealership he had $1,750 in the bank and that's what he could pay for the car (they had a $2,600 asking price on the car at the time). Knowing they held onto the car for roughly a month, the dealership did pretty good on the deal for back then, I'd say.
Terry said he got rid of the car primarily because of the problem it had breaking the alternator bolt. Here's the photo I posted back in 2008 of the likely culprit:
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48725.0;attach=87232)
According to what he said back then and now, the bolt broke multiple times - he had said at least 4 times when we first spoke. Jerry had relayed that when he first got the car, it's alternator was functional but was charging only intermittently since the wiring clip to the alternator had been damaged by the repeated bolt breakage.
Anyway, here are the "back in the day" photos I got to see for the first time on Saturday:
Quote from: 70Sbird on September 24, 2012, 01:51:52 PM
Awesome gathering there Geno!
There were probably some intersting stories swapped! Had any of these guys met previously or known one another?
:2thumbs:
Thanks - and no, the guys from KC had not met before. Dave H. bought the car from an intermediary (long story), so he never met Jerry even though it's his name on the title as the previous owner. Terry and Jerry spent more than a few minutes quizzing one another about where they lived at various times, thinking that perhaps they had crossed paths without knowing it. To my knowledge, Saturday was a first for them both.
Oh, and there were most definitely some story-swapping going on. I already knew that Terry was pretty fond of the loud pedal, and Jerry was apparently quite the rounder back then. Both of them were pretty familiar with what the car would do on the top end - although that was with aftermarket tires/wheels rather than the stock F70x14 bias-ply banana peels which have been reinstalled. In one story, Jerry was describing seeing a large gap between the door glass and quarter glass from the air pushing and/or sucking out the glass. :o
Quote from: hemi68charger on September 24, 2012, 01:52:23 PM
Geno, that is an outstanding story my friend !!! :2thumbs:
It was indeed a great day. I had planned something along these lines now for several years, it just didn't work out before now.
Gene, great you were able to get this done. Most people are not as fortunate or persistent to be able to tie it all together.
Quote from: Aero426 on September 24, 2012, 02:57:52 PM
Gene, great you were able to get this done. Most people are not as fortunate or persistent to be able to tie it all together.
And how many of our cars still have all of the previous (living) owners identified, all in approximately the same location, and able to participate AT THE SAME TIME!
congrats again Geno!
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Prior owners and back in the day pictures. :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
:dance: wow !! amazing !! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
very cool Gene :cheers:
This been a storybook year for that car Gene! Congratulations and then some!
Quote from: Ghoste on September 24, 2012, 07:19:58 PM
This been a storybook year for that car Gene! Congratulations and then some!
DITTO! I personally love the fact that you displayed and presented the vehicle with ALL of the truthful characteristics and documentation to support your Daytona's History. Some individuals try to hide things like rotted body panels, fake fender tags and even re-stamped engine blocks. Others deny abated judging standards or using reproduction parts in order to conceal their contemptible score. Great job Gene and thanks for (once again) proving that the Best Restorations are the ones that are surrounded with integrity and honesty. :2thumbs:
Amazing story and pictures, thanks!
Thanks, everyone :cheers:
I still need to get the car up on the rack and start going through it front to back with the camera. There are still some details which haven't been covered in this thread which might be of interest. I still find things which fascinate me when looking at the car - but I'm easily entertained too... :P
Quote from: hemigeno on September 25, 2012, 08:47:32 AM
Thanks, everyone :cheers:
I still need to get the car up on the rack and start going through it front to back with the camera. There are still some details which haven't been covered in this thread which might be of interest. I still find things which fascinate me when looking at the car - but I'm easily entertained too... :P
:2thumbs: Can't wait to see the pics! Im a sucker for detail!
Quote from: Ghoste on September 24, 2012, 07:19:58 PM
This been a storybook year for that car Gene! Congratulations and then some!
:iagree:
A little late to the party but here goes anyway. It was a real nice get together and my wife and I had a great time. As I told Gene it was nice to connect faces to those names on the previous title and documentation that I got with the car. I think both previous to me owners really enjoyed seeing the car again after so long. I know I did and its only been a year since I saw it last. I really enjoyed catching their reactions to the car. Terry remarked a couple of times that it looked just like he remembered it when he bought it new. She really looks good in those back in the day pictures Jerry brought. I know its been a long road Gene and I'm sure you thought twice about doing it a time or two but the car turned out better than I could have ever expected. When I decided to part with her I wanted the car to go to someone who would do the car justice and restore it back to what it once was. You have far exceeded my expectations. Good job and well done and thank you for allowing me to follow the car along. I really enjoyed seeing the car be restored and learned so much about Daytona's in the process. Thank You.
Dave
Now, go get some chrome slots and start dressing it for its day 2 pics.
Really awesome stuff Gene. Determination is King!
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on September 26, 2012, 07:22:06 AM
Now, go get some chrome slots and start dressing it for its day 2 pics.
Really awesome stuff Gene. Determination is King!
In the back of my mind I'm already thinking about that as an alternative - plus, whether I should paint the scoops black, throw on a Hurst "T" shift knob, and install a Sun tach on the column. Then, it'd be in true Day2 condition.
:scratchchin:
Dave, I'm still rather grateful you gave me the courtesy of a reply to my initial letter. After getting off the phone that time with Carter B. I'm quite sure he was having second thoughts about ever mentioning it to me, but it all worked out.
Now, I get to cheer you on as the cars in your shed have their turn!
:cheers:
Quote from: hemigeno on September 26, 2012, 03:48:36 PM
Now, I get to cheer you on as the cars in your shed have their turn!
:cheers:
Yup you can. And I'm starting with the Brown one. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: Just get prepared for alot of emails asking how did you do that??? ;D
Quote from: Davtona on September 26, 2012, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on September 26, 2012, 03:48:36 PM
Now, I get to cheer you on as the cars in your shed have their turn!
:cheers:
Yup you can. And I'm starting with the Brown one. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: Just get prepared for alot of emails asking how did you do that??? ;D
not green :'(
Quote from: Davtona on September 26, 2012, 07:59:25 PM
Yup you can. And I'm starting with the Brown one. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: Just get prepared for alot of emails asking how did you do that??? ;D
:rofl: Better ask those questions soon though, while I still remember who I am -- much less how we did stuff on the car :image_294343: :silly:
Quote from: moparstuart on September 26, 2012, 10:54:09 PM
not green :'(
That's more of an inside joke between us... I've been :poke: Dave for years that he's not been giving the roughest of his project cars any love when it comes to collecting parts, so of course that's the first one he'd end up restoring.
On a different note, I'm probably going to be taking the car back to Michigan in a week or two. No, we're not going to strip the car back down for a third major resto in succession (*whew*) - but I am wanting to get a couple of very minor issues straightened out. One of these issues is to re-anodize the car's sill plates. Both of the ones on the car were NOS straight out of the wrappers; and while that may be the case, it does not mean they are perfect parts. There aren't any scratches, pits or anything major, but there was some very slight discoloration in a couple of areas - probably from moisture on the packaging. Vance said that he thinks the discoloration is underneath or through the anodizing, because he could not remove it without using more aggressive media. By the time this was noticed, it was too late to fix prior to the 'Nats. The best fix is to strip 'em down and have them re-anodized. That process will take a bit of time to turn around, so the sooner I get the car back up there the sooner it'll be ready for Rosemont/MCACN.
Another example of what needs to be done is to touch up the clips and access covers from where I had the front end aligned. Vance had ballparked the toe-in alignment prior to the 'Nats fairly well, but the caster/camber is pretty tough to set accurately by dead reckoning. The front end was properly adjusted before last weekend's event "just in case" we decided to take some drives in it. No big deal to touch everything back up.
Quote from: hemigeno on September 27, 2012, 08:50:07 AM
but I am wanting to get a couple of very minor issues straightened out.......
Hey Gene.....if you really want to do something "impressive" to display with your car in Chicago, why not get one of those oversized Build-sheets to hang from the hood?!? Keep in mind
that is usually done as a diversion to distract from something incorrect or to provide a "wow" factor for spectators who do not know what they were really used for. Also remember that there was NEVER a vehicle that rolled off of the assembly line with one of those attached (completely in tact) ANYWHERE on the car. They were simply a large build-sheet for the assembly line workers to use as a quick reference while the car was in a disassembled state. At best, you might find a remnant of tape/paper where they were torn away after they had served their purpose. (See photo below)
If you don't want to go that route, I know a similar way that you can impress the Judges and/or the show spectators. Instead of displaying the car with one of those oversized build-sheets you can take individual, regular sized build-sheets and attach one to every (option) component on your car! You can tape one to the steering wheel, the dash pad, the seats, the gas tank, the radiator, the rear end assembly, the suspension parts, the rear end, the shocks, the brakes, the wheels and tires, etc...... Now you may think that this sounds ridiculous but it is essentially the same thing as hanging one of those big "bingo" sheets on the front of the car! Let me know if I can help with this. I have the regular build-sheets along with the oversized styles if you need them. Imagine how knowledgable that you and Vance will appear with these build-sheets hanging all over your Daytona. WOW!!! :2thumbs:
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012-05-02/02.jpg)
Quote from: hemigeno on March 07, 2012, 07:42:12 PM
Moving on from the K-frame, the transmission crossmember is set to be replaced as well, for the same reasons. Vance hadn't found one yet, but he wasn't thinking it would be too much trouble. Thankfully, those are neither date coded nor as differentiated as K-members.
We're swapping out the headlamp seats currently in the car for the weird-finished (galvanized) ones in the second pic. I bought a set of 4 headlamp assemblies a while back, mostly because you can't have too many of the original wide-rib GE lamps on hand. As it turns out, the seats were probably a nicer score than the sealed beam units.
Another change is that the H-pipe has been stripped of the clear paint previously applied. Thankfully, the stripping process left all the distinguishing marks on the tubing itself, as well as the discolorations you'd see on bare steel. This has been treated with RPM, which allows it to look absolutely bare while being protected from rust. Dave Walden gave me the idea, as he treated the exhaust systems of his personal collection and reported that it has held up well despite what you might initially think.
Gene: I think I bought some of the same headlight assemblies that you did. I had the same idea to use the galvinized buckets. The trim rings are not compatible because of the extra tabs. The assemblies I got had a part number for a 71 B body. I'm guessing yours did too. I'm wondering if there was any difference in the original headlight buckets versus these NOS ones. The reason I ask is because the parts book shows a different part number for just the bucket between a 69/70 bucket and a 71 bucket.
Quote from: hemigeno on June 30, 2011, 07:23:47 PM
Vance and I spent some time talking about, of all things, valve stems & caps. Years ago I remember reading some spirited exchanges on Moparts.com between some of the A12 guys about what was correct. The first pic shows the underside of two different lengths of valve stems themselves. The shorter (413) Dill is correct for my car's Road Wheel application. There are no distinguishing marks on any of the valve stems once they're installed and a tire is mounted, so I took the picture of what we're using just to show what they are.
One of the reference books we are (loosely) using states that the correct cap is a Dill "627" - which you can see in the second picture on the right. For the record, the last picture is a bin from Vance's incredible stash of original stuff. He noted that the correct cap found on '69s (and up) is the rounded cap with no lettering - and he has tons of them in that bin. Just in case we take too much flack and need to do so, he's throwing a complete set of the 1968 & earlier Dill numbered caps in a box to swap out rather than take a points hit.
What would be the correct stems, length of stems, and caps be on a 69 Hemi car with the 15 inch H wheels and dog dish caps?..Thanks
Quote from: 69hemidaytona on October 15, 2012, 02:48:56 AM
What would be the correct stems, length of stems, and caps be on a 69 Hemi car with the 15 inch H wheels and dog dish caps?..Thanks
To be honest, I don't know what the stem p/n is, but I'm fairly certain the caps would be the smooth kind as mentioned in the thread. I'll ask Vance next chance I get, but maybe maxwellwedge already knows the answer to this from his cool collection of original/survivor cars :2thumbs:
Quote from: 69hemidaytona on October 15, 2012, 02:29:15 AM
Gene: I think I bought some of the same headlight assemblies that you did. I had the same idea to use the galvinized buckets. The trim rings are not compatible because of the extra tabs. The assemblies I got had a part number for a 71 B body. I'm guessing yours did too. I'm wondering if there was any difference in the original headlight buckets versus these NOS ones. The reason I ask is because the parts book shows a different part number for just the bucket between a 69/70 bucket and a 71 bucket.
A while back I quizzed Vance on this subject, and his feeling was that even if they were a plug-and-play replacement, they wouldn't be exactly correct because of the difference in finish on the buckets themselves. That brown tint to the galvanizing wasn't on the assembly line buckets. When we looked at them initially, Vance thought it was some sort of cosmoline or other protectant put on top of a regular galvanized finish (there's some great "spangle" still visible, to borrow MoparJohn's terminology). Unfortunately, the brown is not something on the surface but is instead part of the finish itself. Nothing I tried would cut through it. While I haven't personally tried to bolt these up to a headlight pod, Vance also said there was a difference in the tab layout (not the tabs which are spot-welded to the trim rings either - we could have re-used my original trim rings if that were the only issue).
While I have four parts boxes to go with these four headlight assemblies, I cannot say with any degree of certainty that the part numbers printed on the box labels represent the part numbers of these assemblies. It's entirely possible that these are '71+ buckets which are different. The reason these were purchased was not for the buckets & trim rings, but for the vintage headlamps they held. That's also why they'll stay on the shelf until one of my others burns out.
In preparation for the MCACN show, MoparJohn and I decided to have a sign made up to point out our consecutive-VIN cars. Here's the finished product (just picked them up yesterday).
Cool.
Don't be surprised if you get some wiseguys come by and start calling you Vin, or asking how do you tell each other apart ... :smilielol:
Quote from: hemigeno on November 01, 2012, 09:21:25 AM
In preparation for the MCACN show, MoparJohn and I decided to have a sign made up to point out our consecutive-VIN cars. Here's the finished product (just picked them up yesterday).
Gene,
The display sign looks great! I can't believe move in day is only two weeks away! :drool5:
MJ
THIS WEEKENDS VISIT TO HEMIGENO'S!
During the MCACN show Gene and I got to spend a lot of quality time talking Daytonas. As a followup we decided that I would make a trip down there and look at some of the parts Gene had. On Wednesday the day before we left I got the latest issue of Mopar Collectors Guide which had the last of a 3 part series. It was about the 3 OE GOLD Daytonas from the Mopar Nationals. Gene's Daytona was in this last issue. I brought it along so My wife Linda could read it on the way down. Then I decided to have Gene autograph it for me while I was there with it! Thanks Gene!
MJ
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :coolgleamA: :coolgleamA:
I'll add that I signed it under protest since all my autograph does is deface a perfectly good magazine copy. It's also important to note you declined my offer to run over the article page with the Daytona's tires since that's the real subject of the article...
Thanks for the visit John. It was great chatting with you as always, and I hope it was a productive trip for you from a parts perspective. Hopefully Linda wasn't too bored.
Gene,
It was a great visit! Linda is always prepared when I go to another wing car entusiasts place! She was also happy we made it to Lion's choice for our favorite roast beef sandwich ( thanks to Stuart Sutton for putting us onto this during the St. Louis meet! ). From a parts prespective it has many positive ramifications for our wing cars. The only negative will be trying to find mates for a couple of items. But I for one no longer wait to find a pair if a rare item pops up.
Thanks! John
Hey Geno,,,, Read your article in M C G . with great intrest, now I know why the scoops on my green car were painted black.
I allways thought the original owner did it. I dint know much about the dealer In ST JOE. The widow,I got the car from did,'somechecking ,but didn't get much. I did some checking,,but didn't come up with much. I think my car sold first.
We should get the two side by side some time,make some observation's
Hi Jim!
Yeah the scoops thing is very similar on those two cars. Just like yours, there was body-color paint beneath the black. I remember you said you discovered that fact on accident after putting a can of brake fluid down on a scoop one time... sounds like something that would happen to me :brickwall:
You're absolutely right, your car did sell first -- by 27 days (2/6/70 vs. 3/5/70 according to Missouri's title records). I always found that a little odd, that the green automatic car would sell before the red stick car did... and this was still after they had advertised this red Daytona in the paper at over a $1,000 discount from the MSRP (the ad ran on 1/17/70). Probably just a sign of most customers' tastes in color and transmission back then. I don't know if the dealership ever advertised your car in the newspaper or not - since it was Dave/nascarxx29 who discovered the advertisement on my car in the first place.
It's not surprising that both Mrs. McCall's and your own "checking" efforts came up empty. That dealership, from what I was told, disappeared overnight sometime around '73 or '74. Supposedly Chrysler came in and repossessed all their inventory, which from what a current Chrysler zone rep told me, indicates there was fraud involved. A person I talked with from St. Joe several years back who remembered the dealership had described them as "a bunch of crooks". Apparently Chrysler agreed...
Hopefully we'll get the two stablemates back together someday. MoparJohn and I just got our consecutive VIN cars together at Chicago, so this would be another cool "reunion". Your car is still such a treasure trove of information, since it's the same for all our cars... they're only original once. I've never gotten tired of looking at it, and usually find something new each time.
Quote from: hemigeno on December 18, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
Your car is still such a treasure trove of information, since it's the same for all our cars... they're only original once. I've never gotten tired of looking at it, and usually find something new each time.
Many collectors would be hot to trot to restore Jim's green car to something cosmetically superior. That is one car that is in good hands.
I didnt recall running across a daytona ad for Jims car.Will see what I can find.I did find many ads and article for the Black Century Dodge daytona
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76975.0.html
Hey Geno
I received my MCG yesterday and I have to say....very cool story! :2thumbs:
Depending on who you talk to - there is a very fine line between being committed to a restoration and needing to be committed! I have been there many times!
I congratulate you on sweating the details for years to get to this level - it is a tireless labor of love and ultimately satisfying to you and appreciative by the hobby. Well done.
I noticed the list of people you thanked.....a very classy gesture by a very classy hobbyist. I didn't do much to get on the list - but if I did help in some small detail - then the hobby is good.
Congrats to John and Tony as well.....Lots of blood, sweat and tears devoted to these 3 machines.
Thanks, Jim. Glad you liked the article, and you most certainly did help out along the way - including a few "counselling" sessions!
One of the best things about going through this whole nutty restoration experience has been meeting and getting to know a bunch of great people in the hobby. Their combined experience and knowledge has been the catalyst for my own efforts, and I'd have fallen way short without all that assistance.
:cheers:
As for the future of this thread, it is my intention over the winter to start photographing details on the car from bumper to nose and then post many of those finer details not readily visible or otherwise easy to overlook. I have to get a new digital camera before starting, since my trusty "toy" Kodak Z612 is in the process of dying - I guess 8,000 photographs is it's limit...
Quote from: maxwellwedge on December 20, 2012, 08:18:11 AM
Hey Geno
I received my MCG yesterday and I have to say....very cool story! :2thumbs:
Depending on who you talk to - there is a very fine line between being committed to a restoration and needing to be committed! I have been there many times!
I congratulate you on sweating the details for years to get to this level - it is a tireless labor of love and ultimately satisfying to you and appreciative by the hobby. Well done.
I noticed the list of people you thanked.....a very classy gesture by a very classy hobbyist. I didn't do much to get on the list - but if I did help in some small detail - then the hobby is good.
Congrats to John and Tony as well.....Lots of blood, sweat and tears devoted to these 3 machines.
I agree,, Here here.. Guess I need to get a copy and renew my subscription...
Gene you want me to mail you my camera for a while? I think it's up to around 250,000 pictures in the last 4 years.
Hi Gene,
I know that Dave, Tom & myself enjoyed our visit. The Car looked Fantastic. Thanks for the Daytona Tour. If you are in the area tomorrow, please stop by! We are having a HUGE Christmas Lunch spread for everyone and you are more than welcome to join us. :2thumbs:
Congrats Gene! :cheers:
Awesome ! A reason to buy a magazine.
Thanks, everyone!
Quote from: 69_500 on December 20, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
Gene you want me to mail you my camera for a while? I think it's up to around 250,000 pictures in the last 4 years.
Danny, I'm not type-rated for a fine piece of equipment like your camera. I just bought another camera similar to my old one, so I'll be good to go for another 8,000 photographs at least. It took me 6-7 years to kill the old one, so that's what I should expect with the new one even if I do snap a boatload of detail photographs of the car this winter.
Dave, I won't be able to stop by today because of some business commitments (which is a fantastic blessing considering how slow the past few months have been for me). Are you guys open any next week?
Quote from: hemigeno on December 21, 2012, 10:08:24 AM
Dave, I won't be able to stop by today because of some business commitments (which is a fantastic blessing considering how slow the past few months have been for me). Are you guys open any next week?
"FANTASTIC BLESSING" is correct Gene! We will be in on Wednesday. If you can stop by you have an open invitation. Merry Christmas! :2thumbs:
I just got my copy on Monday! Congrats Gene wicked car and resto..cheers
After having allowed my Daytona to sit for what might as well be 2 years, I'm starting to get the itch to drive it - especially with Talladega coming up in a couple of months. When the resto first started, my thought was to have it all nice and pristine for a while, then ease into driving it around a bit. So, I've been making plans to upgrade some of the components which were ultra-correct for all that OE judging - but which might cause problems on a cruise somewhere.
As mentioned in this thread (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,103924.0/all.html), we've already replaced all those 40-something-year-old NOS exhaust components with ECS's great reproduction set between the manifolds and the exhaust tips. That eliminated a major concern of mine, where condensation from just starting the car is causing damage whether the car is driven on the road or not. There were a couple of other major concerns of mine which I wanted to address before getting out on the road, but they took some advance planning & yet more parts. You'd think that after 10 years of scrounging parts for a single car's restoration that I'd be done by now :brickwall:
Anyway, shortly after the resto was completed I realized that before driving it on the road the original 055 2-row radiator needed to be replaced. It was surprising to me how quickly the car overheated with that skinny excuse of a radiator. Both the original and second owners of this car relayed that they too had problems with it getting hot, so it was that way from Day 1. Several years ago as part of the overall restoration, I had Bob Schimer at Glen-Ray Radiators re-core and detail the original 055 radiator, and he did exactly what I wanted him to do... which was to keep the same # of cores and fins-per-inch as the OE radiators had. Bob actually found a good original 055 core, which is what he used to rebuild my original for OE judging purposes. It's now outlived its usefulness, and needs to go on the shelf in favor of a "real" radiator. So, back in July I asked Bob to build me another radiator which looks correct up top, but with an industrial-strength 3-row core below the top tank. It arrived a couple of weeks later. Changing out a radiator isn't all that difficult, but along with that I also wanted to change out the OEM K-member seal (the one made with genuine Asbestos fibers for reinforcing). That one already had the beginnings of a crack in it just from how hard it is, and I didn't want it to be further damaged by rock chips while driving down the road. Since that part gets overspray, it seemed easier to enlist Vance's help to do the swap-out and detailing work.
Meanwhile, this past March I (or rather, the Daytona) was invited to attend a Concours d'Elegance event in Southwest Michigan, and that seemed like a perfect time to head back to Michigan and take the "shortcut" past Vance's shop to do the changeout. So, last Friday I headed north. Here's a picture of the car on display the following day. Vance drove the 2 hours to attend the show, and we both enjoyed watching the reactions the car elicited.
Still looks good as ever :cheers:
Once all the festivities were over, and after having to idle around in lines plust taking a couple of passes across the red carpet, the car was starting to get hot. Really hot. By the time I had it back at the trailer for loading, it was puking antifreeze all over the ground. There was at least a 2' diameter puddle beneath the car, and it was maybe 80 degrees outside. If I wasn't convinced about the need for changing out the radiator before, that pretty much sealed it.
Vance and I unloaded the car Saturday night, and got an early start Sunday morning on the changeout. These first three pictures show the overspray pattern visible on the crash bars and other undercarriage components once the K-member seal is removed.
Quote from: nascarxx29 on August 15, 2014, 04:37:35 PM
Still looks good as ever :cheers:
Thanks, Dave. I'm looking quite forward to driving it around too. Just the little bit of travelling done between the park and trailer, I discovered it scoots out pretty good. :drive: :D
These are two pics of the new Glen-Ray radiator. It has a reproduction 055 top tank on it, primarily because Bob has seen original/vintage brass tanks start to crack just from age. He would have built me one with a vintage tank on it for the same price, but since this is intended to look right but be trouble-free, going the reproduction route was by far the better choice. You can't see it well from this small of a pic, but there are three rows and a TON of fins-per-inch. Bob was right, this is an industrial strength core.
If you've ever compared a 2-row 055 and 3-row 054 radiators, you will quickly notice that the top tanks are physically the same dimension. It's the core itself and the bottom tank which are different. So, from the top side (which is about all you can see on a Daytona anyway, once the K-member seal is installed), this will look identical to the OEM 055 it's replacing. The bottom tank on the new radiator is a reproduction he normally uses on 054 3-row radiators, and it's a really nice piece.
Vance changed out the "Weatherhead" petcock and transmission cooler plugs from the old into the new radiator, because there are markings on the heads of those OE parts and the repro's didn't have the marks. These vintage parts aren't likely to fail anytime soon, so they'll work just fine on the new radiator.
The last photo shows the date code Bob stamped on the flange. It's the same date as my car's original radiator, although I told him he didn't have to add that detail. 055 radiators are different from 054's in that the date code is stamped on the side of the flange whichs faces the radiator yoke - which means that once it's installed, you can't see the date at all. I wasn't worried about it, but since Bob had already documented my original radiator's date, he went ahead and stamped it on the flange.
Even while idling the car around my shop and such, I had noticed that my red Brake System warning light came on and off intermittently. While we were looking at the car on the rack, I noticed that there was some brake fluid on the backside of my brake backing plate. Vance and I took off the front drum for a look-see, but there was no evidence of leakage in the wheel cylinder. Best we can tell, it might have been a little bit of seepage from around the connection of the rubber flex line to the hard steel line at the frame. Vance worked the connection together back and forth, hoping to get a better seat at the flanges, so hopefully there won't be a repeat of the leaking. There was no appreciable decrease in brake fluid levels, but it will be something for me to keep an eye on.
The second photo was intended as a "before" shot of the torsion bar orientation. While there is not a way to say it could NOT happen, I've had people comment to me before that the drips on the torsion bars should probably not point down. I suppose that since the bars have a hex end on them, chances were only 1 in 6 that the drips would point down. Both of mine were oriented this way, and when I mentioned something about that to Vance, he quickly jumped in with the wrenches and we had both sides changed in about 15 minutes flat.
Here's Vance applying what he called his NOS torsion bar lube... plus some shots showing the "new" orientation. We made sure both sides were different, just so we didn't get in trouble for being too consistently inconsistent.
The next three are shots of the new repro K-member seal from David Patik that I got from him back when we were experimenting with different post-cure methods to stiffen the masticated rubber material. The stiff-as-a-board original K-member seal is now resting comfortably on the shelf. I was worried that it would continue to tear in places where it's subjected to bending, or that any significant contact would cause it to crack since the seal won't really flex much anymore.
Before installing this, we removed the vintage radiator hoses and put on a fresh set of repro upper and lower hoses from Frank Badalson. While the texture of the hoses is slightly different, they're missing the longitudinal striping and the orientation of the part # / vendor / pentastar inkstamp is different, the repro's are still rather nice parts. Plus, I'm no longer pinning my engine's livelihood on 45-year-old rubber hoses. The originals will still be kept around on the shelves, but I don't think it's wise to depend on them.
This next shot of the temp gauge was taken after we started the car and let it run in Vance's shop for between 10 and 15 minutes. By this time, the old radiator would have been pumping coolant out the overflow in significant quantities.
You can see here that the temp is holding at maybe 180. Neither Vance nor I could remember what temperature of thermostat we used, but if this is the operating temperature the car sees, it's fine by me. After turning the car off for a few minutes and re-starting it, the temp did spike up to the upper end of the scale - but it started coming right back down after just a few seconds.
This was the result I was hoping to see. While I still don't plan on pushing my luck by idling the car around any more than necessary (especially on hot summer days), perhaps this will keep the car from leaving a puddle. I was more than a little paranoid that the car was going to leave a "deposit" on the red carpet at the Concours d'Elegance during the afternoon awards procession. :misbehaving:
Another item on my hit list was to replace the idle mixture decal on the inner fender. That was about the only non-OEM or non-ECS decal still remaining on the car, and Dave Walden was kind enough to give me a correct decal as a replacement. Problem was, the new/correct decal is slightly smaller than the old one, which would have left an outline in overspray of the old decal's size. Vance removed the old decal, sanded down the overspray outline, installed the new one, and then got out his detail spraygun to apply a new batch of Creative Industries-inspired paint. In the first picture, you can see the new decal completely covered. This was right before Vance took a rag with some thinner and wiped most of the paint off... leaving enough around the edges to finish the effect.
Next up was to mask off for applying overspray to the K-member seal. Vance only masked off the nosecone area because he was using a detail spray gun rather than the big one like he did the first time around, and we had the chin spoiler installed (which would not have any overspray on it). Plus, he didn't want to build up too much fine overspray on the radiator yoke which would have not had too much "powder" on it originally. Rubber surfaces like this K-member seal really soak up the paint, so it took him a bit to get the right amount of bodycolor actually visible.
It's hard to say if Creative Industries masked off much of the tires apart from their outside faces. They may have done the same thing as with the engines, where a blanket was draped across what they could easily protect. But, with the smaller paint gun, there wasn't as much concern with overspray as Vance would have had to worry about with the initial application. This was a much less messy process.
And finally, a couple of shots of the finished product (at least of the K-member seal).
Hopefully these types of changes will make the car a little more reliable, even if it'll never see daily driver duties again under my watch. I still have a few more longer-term items on my changeover wish list, but this is a good start.
:2thumbs: amazing detail to factory & Creatives handy work :yesnod:
awesome Job :2thumbs:
Hey Gene, if you want it to run even cooler pour in a couple bottles of water wetter. My former clone runs at 170 -180 all the time. Same radiator you got from Bob other than mine said 054. And that was a 526 striker hemi. Water wetter really does work well.
Gene, Check the switch connection at the E-brake. It might be adjusted close enough to flash the brake light.
Quote from: Charger-Bodie on August 15, 2014, 06:39:31 PM
Hey Gene, if you want it to run even cooler pour in a couple bottles of water wetter. My former clone runs at 170 -180 all the time. Same radiator you got from Bob other than mine said 054. And that was a 526 striker hemi. Water wetter really does work well.
I can attest to that. This is the coolest running Mopar big block that I've ever owned.
You're a detailing nut! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on August 16, 2014, 05:39:18 AM
You're a detailing nut! :2thumbs:
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
Gene,
One thing I would improve on and I sent you an email about it. :2thumbs:
Thanks for the compliments, guys. While I miss researching the details of these cars a bit since the restoration has wrapped up, that day in the shop was enough to get my fix for a little while. Maybe there's hope for me yet.
Nah.
Quote from: Charger-Bodie on August 15, 2014, 06:39:31 PM
Hey Gene, if you want it to run even cooler pour in a couple bottles of water wetter. My former clone runs at 170 -180 all the time. Same radiator you got from Bob other than mine said 054. And that was a 526 striker hemi. Water wetter really does work well.
Brian (#1) , thanks for the advice. I've used Water Wetter in my 2-ton truck's cooling system and it did seem to help it run cooler. My plan with the Daytona was to find out how much of the problem was radiator-related before doing anything else. So far it seems like the new radiator is up to the task. At the moment, the problem is that the cooling system is topped off and the K-member "diaper" is installed... making a partial drain-down of the radiator a not-so-fun task. I may run it for a while just like it is, and wait to see if it has any other overheating issues. Water Wetter is about the last bullet left to fire, but I appreciate hearing the good results you (and histoy) had with your stroked Hemi. That is great info to have.
From my recollections, don't they recommend using just plain water and the appropriate amount of Water Wetter without antifreeze? Or is my memory that far off?
Quote from: UFO on August 15, 2014, 06:55:37 PM
Gene, Check the switch connection at the E-brake. It might be adjusted close enough to flash the brake light.
Brian (#2), back when I first noticed this, I pulled up on the E-brake pedal when the light was flashing to see if it made a difference. It was such an intermittent problem, it was difficult to tell if it was related to that or not. The light would just flash for a few seconds - and was often out by the time I noticed it and could pull up on the E-brake pedal. Regardless, I went out this morning with a flashlight and pair of pliers to make sure that when the pedal was at the top of its travel, the switch was fully depressed (which would keep the light off). Not a bad piece of advice.
Quote from: resq302 on August 19, 2014, 08:34:28 PM
One thing I would improve on and I sent you an email about it. :2thumbs:
Brian (#3) - thanks for the offer! I sent you a reply back which explains why the car looks the way it does. It wasn't an oversight on our part, and your observation would normally have been absolutely spot-on. I really do appreciate your generosity!!
:cheers:
Awesome updates Geno.. I may well invest in the future in a Glen Ray radiator..... I hate being paranoid about driving mine in Houston and the temperature spiking.....
A brief update on a few issues:
Back in the fall I did a shakedown cruise around town, and noticed a couple of things weren't quite right. So, a couple of weeks ago I finally caught a break in my schedule and took the car back to Vance's for what is almost certainly its last stayover in Muskegon. "Yeah right", you say... "heard that one before." :icon_smile_blackeye: Most of the items we addressed were quite minor, but one thing I felt is worth mentioning here was the cooling/overheating problem.
As noted earlier, last August we swapped out the 2-core (but 100% correct) 055 radiator for an industrial-strength GlenRay version. This was hoped to be a fix for persistent overheating if the engine ran much more than what it takes to get on & off the trailer. I didn't talk about this very much on the forum, but it really bothered me - to the point that it prevented me from taking the previous owners for a drive in their former car back when I got to meet them all in 2012 at Smithville Lake (thanks again to STUART SUTTON for all his help that day :2thumbs: ). That opportunity may never happen again, and I was disappointed to let it pass, even though I knew there wasn't really a choice. After the radiator swap, I thought the new radiator had fixed the overheating problem... but my short shakedown cruise proved otherwise.
Vance discovered that the culprit all along was the 160* Mr. Gasket "hi-flow" :flame: thermostat. While working through my list, he too observed the same overheating problem I reported, even though I had added Water Wetter additive to the coolant mixture since my trip. One of the first diagnostic checks he made was to remove the thermostat and do a temp test to see when it started to open up... which wasn't until around 215*. That's not a typo -- and that's just when it BARELY STARTED to open up. We don't know that it ever opened up all the way - but the engine probably would have cooked itself long before it fully opened anyway. There's no wonder the car was having problems cooling down... the coolant flow was being plugged up by a defective part from the beginning. Even the $7 factory-style Stant piece would have flowed WAY better than this "hi-flow" part. So, Vance gutted the mechanism and installed just the shell of the T-stat back into the waterneck to act as a baffle, since some restriction in the system is still needed to ensure the heat exchanger (radiator) has enough time to transfer the coolant's thermal energy to the air flowing through. The result was an instant improvement/lowering of coolant temps, including during one or two additional shakedown cruises where NONE of the earlier symptoms continued. The temp gauge now comes down quite nicely after it's been brought to operating temp & shut off for a few minutes. We did do this test earlier too, but only with the engine idling in the garage rather than having brought it up to true operating temp. About the only thing he didn't try was getting stuck in a traffic jam in 90+ degree weather... which I would avoid like the plague even without overheating issues. Since this car will never see duty as a winter weather driver, the lack of a thermostatically-controlled restriction should never be an issue - it flows the same maximum amount as if the temperature is 160* all the time. With the inherent airflow restrictions of the Daytona nosecone, it doesn't take long for these things to get up to temperature anyway. Win-Win, if you ask me.
Moral of the story? If you have any suspicions about the cooling capacity of your wing car, make sure your thermostat isn't the problem.
:cheers:
FWIW: after doing some research, other DC.com'ers have mentioned the same problem with Mr. Gasket 'stats in a couple of previous threads. I'm just adding my experience to the pile... here's one old(er) thread/reply:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg946205.html#msg946205
It is probably true that other "new and improved" replacement parts that you believe to be "name brand" can no longer be trusted.
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
good to hear about the updates ! Hope that fixes the problematic cooling issues these cars had !
A quick note to anyone else suffering high temps.
I asked about this for my R/T and was suggested to me by Mike (Dayclona) to run the Zerex G05 with 50% distilled water and a bottle of Water Wetter. I was replacing the water pump anyway so I went with the new mix and my temps dropped +30* in hot Carlisle weather. It did run back to about only a 10* drop while on the 2-1/2 hour ride home.
I plan on running the G05 once I get the Bird running.
Quote from: FJ5WING on July 21, 2015, 10:21:28 AM
A quick note to anyone else suffering high temps.
I asked about this for my R/T and was suggested to me by Mike (Dayclona) to run the Zerex G05 with 50% distilled water and a bottle of Water Wetter. I was replacing the water pump anyway so I went with the new mix and my temps dropped +30* in hot Carlisle weather. It did run back to about only a 10* drop while on the 2-1/2 hour ride home.
I plan on running the G05 once I get the Bird running.
I have run distilled water and Water Wetter in my Daytona now for over a year and haven't had an overheating problem since, both with the former 440 and now 426 Hemi...
just pulling this to the top, for no particular reason..... :whistling:
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thanks for bringing this back-good info on the cooling issues that we continue to encounter as well. Somehow I missed the discussion on the Mr Gasket thermostat, but more importantly the consistent comments on the benefits of distilled water rather than tap water, with no downside. Thanks again everyone and Gene in particular.
Bob
I'm surprised there wasn't an NOS MoPar 'stat in the car...